All Things Environment

[cradleandshoot]

cradle, I'm really baffled as to why your heels are dug in so deeply in the denial that man is damaging this planet with his abusive and glutinous ways. Do you really think that a bunch of scientists got together and determined that they could BS a big enough part of the population so as to make buckets full of money? Just made up stuff to see if the population would swallow it hook, line, and sinker? Scientists putting their reputations on the line for the almighty dollar? None of these highly educated scientists have any self respect, conscience, morals, integrity? The people who once roamed the land we live on respected the land, too many of the millions upon millions who occupy it now don't. The almighty dollar is what's valued now, and at all costs. Waste and toxins is just the cost (to the Earth) of doing business...and pretty much world wide.
You're familiar with Cayuga Lake, little story about that lake for you. My father was born in 1919, lived and was raised right next to that lake. That's when very few wanted to live along the lake as it was too far from town. The few who lived there flushed, and threw, pretty much all of their waste into the lake. After all, how you going to do any damge to a lake that is fifty miles long, plenty deep, and three miles wide? Do I need to go on any more with the story? What makes you think that what happened to that lake, and the necessary changes made in order to not "kill" it, is any different than what is going on with our planet?

We have a difference of opinion here Dmac. if you want to discuss the damage that humans havedone to our planet... you will get no argument from me. That is not the point of my discussion. The destruction that some humans are wreaking on our planet is devastating. When you change the course of destruction to CC/GW... then you are talking about something totally different. we are no longer discussing stupid ignorant people dumping trash where ever they please. I hope you understand the difference. Stupid effing people dumping their refuse in ocean can be prevented. What the planet will do will always be beyond our control. Do you think we can control or are responsible for Dorian?? That is an example of what I have said many times here. The planet will do what it wants... where it wants... when it wants and how it wants...

[DMac]

I get it that there's a big difference in the number of Pampers we use and dispose of, along with the other mountains of trash we heap up daily (spend a couple of hours at the gate at the dump in Waterloo and count the number of eighteen wheelers that unload there in a day), and GW/CC. What I'm not so certain of though is that the principle isn't the same. The effect of so many people, and their bad habits, isn't having somewhat of an effect on our atmosphere? I really do think modern man (growing by the billions in numbers) is Mother Earth's worst nightmare, and it's not beyond my belief that he can phuk it up to the hilt and beyond. I don't understand how the possibility of our warming the place up a bit is so ridiculously absurd to you. The earth is just too big and hell bent on her natural path for us to knock her off course a little bit?
There are a lot of very bright people around the world who have studied this stuff for decades now and say there could well be something to the CC theory. I don't know how you just blow those guys off as a bunch of jackwagons who are just telling us fictitious stories for barrels full of money. As for the trillions being spent on research and the like, does it really matter? If it's not being spent on that, won't they just spend it for a bigger bomb, jet, rocket, or maybe even just a bigger war?

[Typical Lax Dad]

I get it that there's a big difference in the number of Pampers we use and dispose of, along with the other mountains of trash we heap up daily (spend a couple of hours at the gate at the dump in Waterloo and count the number of eighteen wheelers that unload there in a day), and GW/CC. What I'm not so certain of though is that the principle isn't the same. The effect of so many people, and their bad habits, isn't having somewhat of an effect on our atmosphere? I really do think modern man (growing by the billions in numbers) is Mother Earth's worst nightmare, and it's not beyond my belief that he can phuk it up to the hilt and beyond. I don't understand how the possibility of our warming the place up a bit is so ridiculously absurd to you. The earth is just too big and hell bent on her natural path for us to knock her off course a little bit?
There are a lot of very bright people around the world who have studied this stuff for decades now and say there could well be something to the CC theory. I don't know how you just blow those guys off as a bunch of jackwagons who are just telling us fictitious stories for barrels full of money. As for the trillions being spent on research and the like, does it really matter? If it's not being spent on that, won't they just spend it for a bigger bomb, jet, rocket, or maybe even just a bigger war?

You can’t overcome someone’s beliefs with facts. Green house effect is made up junk science. Too hard to understand. People may understand quantum entanglement but figuring out how the earth works is too much for man.

[youthathletics]

Easy fix...stop space flight for 10 years to include satellite launches and watch everything sync back up. Protect our children.

[cradleandshoot]

I get it that there's a big difference in the number of Pampers we use and dispose of, along with the other mountains of trash we heap up daily (spend a couple of hours at the gate at the dump in Waterloo and count the number of eighteen wheelers that unload there in a day), and GW/CC. What I'm not so certain of though is that the principle isn't the same. The effect of so many people, and their bad habits, isn't having somewhat of an effect on our atmosphere? I really do think modern man (growing by the billions in numbers) is Mother Earth's worst nightmare, and it's not beyond my belief that he can phuk it up to the hilt and beyond. I don't understand how the possibility of our warming the place up a bit is so ridiculously absurd to you. The earth is just too big and hell bent on her natural path for us to knock her off course a little bit?
There are a lot of very bright people around the world who have studied this stuff for decades now and say there could well be something to the CC theory. I don't know how you just blow those guys off as a bunch of jackwagons who are just telling us fictitious stories for barrels full of money. As for the trillions being spent on research and the like, does it really matter? If it's not being spent on that, won't they just spend it for a bigger bomb, jet, rocket, or maybe even just a bigger war?

Dmac my issue with the jackwagons is that they are being disingenuous with the people. Is the planet getting warmer, yes it is. Are humans to blame for it? That is an issue that can not be proven. The ASSUMPTION is since co2 levels are increasing on a minute scale that humans have to be the culprit. For the EGGHEADS out there when I say minute in terms of PPM it is a very small number. There are a number of respected and highly qualified scientists thatbelieve the increase is nothing to be concerned about. I can hear the EGGHEADS screaming at me saying sheepdip… what do I know. If you are going to spend trillions of dollars you probably should know what the flying flip your spending it on. There are a few folks here who dropped sheepdip in their tighty whities when trump wanted to spend 5 billion on a wall. You mention spending trillions upon trillions and suddenly the huddled masses here say... NBFD. Why??? I have no freaking idea why... stupidity is the first thing that comes to mind for me.

Dmac let me bring up a subject both you and I are probably pretty familiar with... the water levels on Lake Ontario. This isn't freaking climate change related all this flooding. This fuster cluck was the brainchild of stupid effing human beings that decided they knew best how to control the water levels in Lake Ontario. They sure figured it would be nice to create some more wetlands for all those migrating birds. Brilliant effing idea on their part... we got wetlands all right. The problem is we gots wetlands where we want drylands. I hope you realize Dmac these are the same stupid effing human beings that are telling us they know how to save the planet. If you trust them to save the planet... more power to you. The solutions they are giving us revolve around eliminating ICE and having us all change over to a plant based diet and outlawing all fossil fuels.

Funny how some of these alleged solutions just conveniently dovetail with the personal political and social agenda of the folks proposing the solutions. No conflict of interest there. When you can scare people and shout them down and intimidate them into doing what you want them to because if you don't you are helping to destroy the planet. If you want to enjoy a plant based diet... knock yourself out... go for it. If you want to drive an tiny electric buzzmobile… knock yourself out... go for it. If you want to put solar panels on your roof... knock yourself out... go for it... more power to you. When you all start dictating to me what I should do to save the planet in YOUR opinion. Then you can all go and pound sand.

I apologize for the rant Dmac. I have been really grouchy having missed out on all those raw clams this year. Hinerwadles was the only place that I know of that served raw clams. The wife and I are going to have to buy a bag of our own soon and shuck them and snarf them down. I suppose eating clams is also helping to destroy the planet as well...

[cradleandshoot]

I get it that there's a big difference in the number of Pampers we use and dispose of, along with the other mountains of trash we heap up daily (spend a couple of hours at the gate at the dump in Waterloo and count the number of eighteen wheelers that unload there in a day), and GW/CC. What I'm not so certain of though is that the principle isn't the same. The effect of so many people, and their bad habits, isn't having somewhat of an effect on our atmosphere? I really do think modern man (growing by the billions in numbers) is Mother Earth's worst nightmare, and it's not beyond my belief that he can phuk it up to the hilt and beyond. I don't understand how the possibility of our warming the place up a bit is so ridiculously absurd to you. The earth is just too big and hell bent on her natural path for us to knock her off course a little bit?
There are a lot of very bright people around the world who have studied this stuff for decades now and say there could well be something to the CC theory. I don't know how you just blow those guys off as a bunch of jackwagons who are just telling us fictitious stories for barrels full of money. As for the trillions being spent on research and the like, does it really matter? If it's not being spent on that, won't they just spend it for a bigger bomb, jet, rocket, or maybe even just a bigger war?

You can’t overcome someone’s beliefs with facts. Green house effect is made up junk science. Too hard to understand. People may understand quantum entanglement but figuring out how the earth works is too much for man.

People may understand quantum entanglement but figuring out how the earth works is too much for man. LMFAO... I have been watching every weather person on Gods green earth trying to figure out where Dorian is headed and they don't have a freaking clue. Its headed somewhere very slowly but they just don't quite know where yet. TLD when you are going to make a claim that scientists understand the planet... maybe you should look at the facts that are staring you in the face. If these brilliant people of science and meteorology knew everything about the planet... they would know exactly where Dorian was going and what it was going to do. When you believe what you want to believe reality giving you a cold hard slap in the face falls upon numb cheeks. the best and brightest minds of science can't predict the track of a hurricane outside of an educated guess. They have no problems at all predicting what the planet will do 50 years from now...

[Typical Lax Dad]

I get it that there's a big difference in the number of Pampers we use and dispose of, along with the other mountains of trash we heap up daily (spend a couple of hours at the gate at the dump in Waterloo and count the number of eighteen wheelers that unload there in a day), and GW/CC. What I'm not so certain of though is that the principle isn't the same. The effect of so many people, and their bad habits, isn't having somewhat of an effect on our atmosphere? I really do think modern man (growing by the billions in numbers) is Mother Earth's worst nightmare, and it's not beyond my belief that he can phuk it up to the hilt and beyond. I don't understand how the possibility of our warming the place up a bit is so ridiculously absurd to you. The earth is just too big and hell bent on her natural path for us to knock her off course a little bit?
There are a lot of very bright people around the world who have studied this stuff for decades now and say there could well be something to the CC theory. I don't know how you just blow those guys off as a bunch of jackwagons who are just telling us fictitious stories for barrels full of money. As for the trillions being spent on research and the like, does it really matter? If it's not being spent on that, won't they just spend it for a bigger bomb, jet, rocket, or maybe even just a bigger war?

You can’t overcome someone’s beliefs with facts. Green house effect is made up junk science. Too hard to understand. People may understand quantum entanglement but figuring out how the earth works is too much for man.

People may understand quantum entanglement but figuring out how the earth works is too much for man. LMFAO... I have been watching every weather person on Gods green earth trying to figure out where Dorian is headed and they don't have a freaking clue. Its headed somewhere very slowly but they just don't quite know where yet. TLD when you are going to make a claim that scientists understand the planet... maybe you should look at the facts that are staring you in the face. If these brilliant people of science and meteorology knew everything about the planet... they would know exactly where Dorian was going and what it was going to do. When you believe what you want to believe reality giving you a cold hard slap in the face falls upon numb cheeks. the best and brightest minds of science can't predict the track of a hurricane outside of an educated guess. They have no problems at all predicting what the planet will do 50 years from now...

So the weather folks have no idea what they are talking about? That’s your answer?

[cradleandshoot]

I get it that there's a big difference in the number of Pampers we use and dispose of, along with the other mountains of trash we heap up daily (spend a couple of hours at the gate at the dump in Waterloo and count the number of eighteen wheelers that unload there in a day), and GW/CC. What I'm not so certain of though is that the principle isn't the same. The effect of so many people, and their bad habits, isn't having somewhat of an effect on our atmosphere? I really do think modern man (growing by the billions in numbers) is Mother Earth's worst nightmare, and it's not beyond my belief that he can phuk it up to the hilt and beyond. I don't understand how the possibility of our warming the place up a bit is so ridiculously absurd to you. The earth is just too big and hell bent on her natural path for us to knock her off course a little bit?
There are a lot of very bright people around the world who have studied this stuff for decades now and say there could well be something to the CC theory. I don't know how you just blow those guys off as a bunch of jackwagons who are just telling us fictitious stories for barrels full of money. As for the trillions being spent on research and the like, does it really matter? If it's not being spent on that, won't they just spend it for a bigger bomb, jet, rocket, or maybe even just a bigger war?

You can’t overcome someone’s beliefs with facts. Green house effect is made up junk science. Too hard to understand. People may understand quantum entanglement but figuring out how the earth works is too much for man.

People may understand quantum entanglement but figuring out how the earth works is too much for man. LMFAO... I have been watching every weather person on Gods green earth trying to figure out where Dorian is headed and they don't have a freaking clue. Its headed somewhere very slowly but they just don't quite know where yet. TLD when you are going to make a claim that scientists understand the planet... maybe you should look at the facts that are staring you in the face. If these brilliant people of science and meteorology knew everything about the planet... they would know exactly where Dorian was going and what it was going to do. When you believe what you want to believe reality giving you a cold hard slap in the face falls upon numb cheeks. the best and brightest minds of science can't predict the track of a hurricane outside of an educated guess. They have no problems at all predicting what the planet will do 50 years from now...

So the weather folks have no idea what they are talking about? That’s your answer?

No sir... it is much more nuanced than that. When you are trying to predict what the planet, or a hurricane for that matter will do humans should not become such a bunch of arrogant weeds that think they know what the planet will do. That is a simple fact that the environmental extremists that reside on this forum will never understand. the simple fact is they believe they are smarter than planet earth and know everything it will do... their computer models told them so...

[holmes435]

And the gist is that you're smarter than all of them. Got it.

[cradleandshoot]

And the gist is that you're smarter than all of them. Got it.

Oh hell no... you are sounding dumber than you think I am. All I am saying is as smart as you think science is they don't know what the planet will do tomorrow much less 50 years from now. It is really quite a simple concept that you need to apply. It is called common sense, you might want to try it out sometime, you might find it agreeable to you.

[Typical Lax Dad]

And the gist is that you're smarter than all of them. Got it.

Oh hell no... you are sounding dumber than you think I am. All I am saying is as smart as you think science is they don't know what the planet will do tomorrow much less 50 years from now. It is really quite a simple concept that you need to apply. It is called common sense, you might want to try it out sometime, you might find it agreeable to you.

What is the stock market going to do next week?

[RedFromMI]

Oh hell no... you are sounding dumber than you think I am. All I am saying is as smart as you think science is they don't know what the planet will do tomorrow much less 50 years from now. It is really quite a simple concept that you need to apply. It is called common sense, you might want to try it out sometime, you might find it agreeable to you.

Let's break this down - because you are making an apples and oranges comparison...

The first statement is that scientists don't know what the planet will do tomorrow. The second is they don't know what the planet will do 50 years in the future.

Such broad statements, and without any qualification as to what exactly scientist know/don't know _absolutely_ meaningless.

There are some things scientists know quite well about the Earth. How long a day lasts, when is sunrise/sunset, etc are known with quite a lot of accuracy. But that is not what you mean entirely. You mean climate/weather (or within the context of this discussion, you should be).

Now for the short term you mean weather, and for the long term climate. Still apples and oranges, but there is a relationship.

But when you say don't know what will happen tomorrow as to weather - actually the answer is we (meaning the people who are trained in weather forecasting/predicting) can figure to a pretty good degree what the weather will be tomorrow. But they cannot get everything right - given the inherent nature of some weather phenomena, for example, we cannot predict that there will be a thunderstorm at a particular place or time, but we can provide a great estimate of the likelihood of them occurring in a particular area. And the general high temperatures/low temperatures for the next few days are fairly predictable. But the nature of weather forecasting is that after a couple of days, the predictions from a few days before will not be as good as ones from just shortly before.

Now climate predictions are different. They have to do with averages and extremes and how those numbers tend to vary over time. Although the information data sets used are sometimes the same ones that are used for weather forecasting does not mean that the calculations are the same, nor is the accuracy for the near/not so near/far future as wildly chaotic as weather forecasting beyond the near term might be. Your "common sense" is telling you that they are the same when they are clearly not.

This is why you cannot use "common sense" to do science. You have to do science to understand it, and then you can do more science.

[HooDat]

We can go back and forth all day about what people believe. In the end, that is not going to change many people's minds, because we are talking about beliefs. Too many folks have wrapped up CC/GW into their identity - on both sides of the aisle.

To my way of seeing it, there are three key questions: 1) what is happening?, 2) what are we actually able to do about "it"?, 3) what should we do about "it"?

1) what is happening? - is the planet warming up? It seems like it, but there is also a lot of evidence that the earth's climate has undergone a lot of changes in the past as well. Some have worked out quite well for us but that is no guarantee that any additional changes will. We do know that we have polluted the crud out of the planet (good old fashioned garbage and solid waste.

2) what are we actually able to do about it? - in terms of global warming, we are grasping at straws. My issue is less with the problem and more with the solutions being pushed on us. The current "green" sources of power do very little to actually mitigate emissions, they just move them around. There are other environmental impacts that are not considered as well - the most egregious of which is the mining for the various heavy metals that are required to build solar and wind generation. Not to mention the hydrocarbons that are burned in the manufacturing process.... Just because you don't see smoke coming out of a car tail-pipe doesn't mean there weren't emissions somewhere down the generation food-chain. On the pollution front, there is a lot we can and have done to reduce waste, and enhance recycling. But a LOT more work needs to be done.

3) What should we do about it? - We are overly focused on the power generation side because there is big money in building utility scale generation that can garner government subsidies and make the developers a fortune. That is a boondoggle plain and simple. Here are the answers (or at least some):

i) reduce power demand through improved efficiency, local walk-able livable cities and towns, improved public transportation, reduced plane travel;

ii) invest in emissions reduction technology;

iii) invest in continued research into the right answers for our energy needs - versus the current offering of the "answer" that stands to make some developer money right here right now - areas of interest include: nuclear technologies that have the potential to eliminate/dramatically reduce nuclear waste, distributed generation technologies, super high efficiency engines, plant based transportation fuels, fuel cell technology.

iv) REDUCE CONSUMERISM!!! <<<<<< this is the ONLY real answer - and there isn't a politician of globalist pushing it. Ever wonder why? Because there is no money in reduced consumerism. Our politics is corrupt beyond belief, bought and paid for by the global corporations - they don't lead, they follow the money.

So stop the stupid bickering about what the planet is doing (so the politicians can divide you) and start talking about WHAT WE SHOULD DO (or NOT) ABOUT IT.

You aren't getting straight answers from your leaders - you are just getting led to the trough to be fed the the R 'sand D's benefactors.....

[youthathletics]

iv) REDUCE CONSUMERISM!!! <<<<<< this is the ONLY real answer - and there isn't a politician of globalist pushing it. Ever wonder why? Because there is no money in reduced consumerism. Our politics is corrupt beyond belief, bought and paid for by the global corporations - they don't lead, they follow the money.

+10

And that will also reduce the pollution coming from the Far East where all that crap is made.

[CU88]

r - it is natural and man had nothing to do with it, just let it hit us.

NASA AND THE ESA ARE TEAMING UP TO FIND WAYS TO DEFLECT AN ASTEROID THE SIZE OF EGYPT'S GREAT PYRAMID

https://www.newsweek.com/nasa-esa-aster ... id-1457407

[HooDat]

r - it is natural and man had nothing to do with it, just let it hit us.

NASA AND THE ESA ARE TEAMING UP TO FIND WAYS TO DEFLECT AN ASTEROID THE SIZE OF EGYPT'S GREAT PYRAMID

https://www.newsweek.com/nasa-esa-aster ... id-1457407

I saw that movie - Bruce WIllis was a hero!

[cradleandshoot]

r - it is natural and man had nothing to do with it, just let it hit us.

NASA AND THE ESA ARE TEAMING UP TO FIND WAYS TO DEFLECT AN ASTEROID THE SIZE OF EGYPT'S GREAT PYRAMID

https://www.newsweek.com/nasa-esa-aster ... id-1457407

I did not know that asteroids came shaped like pyramids. You learn something new every day. I wonder if it makes a difference if it hits point side first or flat side first?

[Typical Lax Dad]

r - it is natural and man had nothing to do with it, just let it hit us.

NASA AND THE ESA ARE TEAMING UP TO FIND WAYS TO DEFLECT AN ASTEROID THE SIZE OF EGYPT'S GREAT PYRAMID

https://www.newsweek.com/nasa-esa-aster ... id-1457407

I did not know that asteroids came shaped like pyramids. You learn something new every day. I wonder if it makes a difference if it hits point side first or flat side first?

Same size. Not sure if the article said same shape but it’s possible.

[youthathletics]

r - it is natural and man had nothing to do with it, just let it hit us.

NASA AND THE ESA ARE TEAMING UP TO FIND WAYS TO DEFLECT AN ASTEROID THE SIZE OF EGYPT'S GREAT PYRAMID

https://www.newsweek.com/nasa-esa-aster ... id-1457407

I saw that movie - Bruce WIllis was a hero!

Maybe we could nuke it...

[get it to x]

r - it is natural and man had nothing to do with it, just let it hit us.

I don't think it's anyone saying "Ok, it's natural and man had nothing to do with it, just let it hit us". The possibilities, in my opinion, ranked in order of likelihood are:

1) It's a fairly benign natural change in temperature and it is well within man's ability to adapt to the change. You might look good in a thawb.
2) It's a fairly serious natural change in temperature and man can do nothing about the temperature but still, man can adapt.
3) It's a fairly serious natural change in temperature and man can do nothing about it, can't adapt and faces extinction.
4) It's a fairly serious natural change in temperature and man can change the climate so man doesn't need to adapt.

The fourth possibility to me is the height of hubris.