"The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

[Typical Lax Dad]

You and I will also need to disagree as to whether this version of the GOP leadership would have had the stones to convict on impeachment. From my perspective, as an R who originally supported Nixon, a lifetime of voting GOP, I think this GOP is totally cowed by Trump and Trumpism. I was hoping otherwise, and certainly I found ample basis in the Mueller Report to justify impeachment, but it became clear that they would not do so no matter what.

We'll never know because Mueller didn't deliver the goods -- because there wasn't any there, there.
It wouldn't take all the Senate (R)'s, just enough to get to 67.
Enough moderates would have dumped Trump had Mueller delivered the evidence that allowed them to hold their seats.
Just off the top, I see any (R) Senators from blue states, plus Rubio, Romney, Toomey, Burr, Corker (whole there), Alexander..
I see establishment (R)'s & former rivals like Cruz, Coryn, Tillis, Issacson, Blount & maybe even Mitch opting for Pence/Haley, if the evidence was solid & compelling to their voters back home.

Trump didn't break any laws. We good.

[old salt]

You and I will also need to disagree as to whether this version of the GOP leadership would have had the stones to convict on impeachment. From my perspective, as an R who originally supported Nixon, a lifetime of voting GOP, I think this GOP is totally cowed by Trump and Trumpism. I was hoping otherwise, and certainly I found ample basis in the Mueller Report to justify impeachment, but it became clear that they would not do so no matter what.

We'll never know because Mueller didn't deliver the goods -- because there wasn't any there, there.
It wouldn't take all the Senate (R)'s, just enough to get to 67.
Enough moderates would have dumped Trump had Mueller delivered the evidence that allowed them to hold their seats.
Just off the top, I see any (R) Senators from blue states, plus Rubio, Romney, Toomey, Burr, Corker (whole there), Alexander..
I see establishment (R)'s & former rivals like Cruz, Coryn, Tillis, Issacson, Blount & maybe even Mitch opting for Pence/Haley, if the evidence was solid & compelling to their voters back home.

Trump didn't break any laws. We good.

So try to impeach Trump.
Make the campaign about the Russiagate investigations & help re-elect Trump.
Nancy gets it, even if you don't.
The odds are better to get rid of him via the ballot box.
Meanwhile, try to fix some of the problems that propelled Trump into office.

[Typical Lax Dad]

You and I will also need to disagree as to whether this version of the GOP leadership would have had the stones to convict on impeachment. From my perspective, as an R who originally supported Nixon, a lifetime of voting GOP, I think this GOP is totally cowed by Trump and Trumpism. I was hoping otherwise, and certainly I found ample basis in the Mueller Report to justify impeachment, but it became clear that they would not do so no matter what.

We'll never know because Mueller didn't deliver the goods -- because there wasn't any there, there.
It wouldn't take all the Senate (R)'s, just enough to get to 67.
Enough moderates would have dumped Trump had Mueller delivered the evidence that allowed them to hold their seats.
Just off the top, I see any (R) Senators from blue states, plus Rubio, Romney, Toomey, Burr, Corker (whole there), Alexander..
I see establishment (R)'s & former rivals like Cruz, Coryn, Tillis, Issacson, Blount & maybe even Mitch opting for Pence/Haley, if the evidence was solid & compelling to their voters back home.

Trump didn't break any laws. We good.

So try to impeach Trump.
Make the campaign about the Russiagate investigations & help re-elect Trump.
Nancy gets it, even if you don't.
The odds are better to get rid of him via the ballot box.
Meanwhile, try to fix some of the problems that propelled Trump into office.

I said We Good.

[LandM]

TLD,
The BFD has gotten old and worn out - do you want to come up with another acronym? To me it is tiring and not funny.
As to an E-4 or "whatever an E means" - you might want to sit down and educate yourself with your sister. They do the dirty work that most rich, prep school, highly educated snot nosed kids do not. Pretty arrogant statement on your part and also ignorant.

[MDlaxfan76]

You and I will also need to disagree as to whether this version of the GOP leadership would have had the stones to convict on impeachment. From my perspective, as an R who originally supported Nixon, a lifetime of voting GOP, I think this GOP is totally cowed by Trump and Trumpism. I was hoping otherwise, and certainly I found ample basis in the Mueller Report to justify impeachment, but it became clear that they would not do so no matter what.

We'll never know because Mueller didn't deliver the goods -- because there wasn't any there, there.
It wouldn't take all the Senate (R)'s, just enough to get to 67.
Enough moderates would have dumped Trump had Mueller delivered the evidence that allowed them to hold their seats.
Just off the top, I see any (R) Senators from blue states, former rivals, long serving establishment members, like :
Snow, Murkowski, Rubio, Romney, Toomey, Burr, Corker (while there), Alexander, Sasse, Cruz, Coryn, Tillis, Issacson, & maybe even Mitch, Thune, Blunt & Barrasso leadership team. opting for Pence/Haley, if the evidence was solid & compelling to their voters back home & to hold the majority.

https://www.republicanleader.senate.gov ... n-senators

Nope, you could get maybe 6 of those, absent Trump on tape with Putin, plotting election help in exchange for lifting the sanctions. And maybe not even that many. Certainly not Mitch.

The GOP didn't turn on Nixon until SCOTUS ruled on the release of the tapes. But that was with a Dem Senate to begin with so the Senators knew there was no avoiding the vote.

Note that none of these chickens has had the stones to call for impeachment despite knowing darn well that Trump obstructed justice and knowing darn well that he lied repeatedly to the American public about his business dealings with the Russians (kompromat at a minimum), knowing darn well that he welcomed the Russian interference and, heck, would do it again. Nope, knowing all of that, all or any part of which deserves impeachment, none of them have the stones to buck Trump. Romney is a huge disappointment in that regard, so is Sasse.

Only one GOP Congressman had the stones to do so. Good on him.

Whether this chicken behavior is because they crave the office, the power, or whether they truly believe that turning on Trump will destroy the GOP sooner than it will collapse otherwise and policies and judges are too important to hasten that event, I dunno.

But I do think the latter argument is playing on at least some of them. Turning on Trump will rip the party in half. If he loses the election, though, not so bad for the party, albeit it's going to be tough to dig out of the demographic hole they've dug.

[MDlaxfan76]

TLD,
The BFD has gotten old and worn out - do you want to come up with another acronym? To me it is tiring and not funny.
As to an E-4 or "whatever an E means" - you might want to sit down and educate yourself with your sister. They do the dirty work that most rich, prep school, highly educated snot nosed kids do not. Pretty arrogant statement on your part and also ignorant.

LandM,
You may be a bit late to this party, so don't realize that TLD is using that acronym because it was so heavily used by the Trumpists. It was highly offensive when they did so, so turnabout is now at work.

Not really his style otherwise.

Pretty sure no disrespect was intended for any military, at any level, but it's also quite irritating to some of us when there's a bunch of posturing by ex-military folks throwing around acronyms to make themselves sound somehow more knowledgeable or, worse, more 'honorable' than others.

[LandM]

TLD,
Also Comey has a clearance that probably only one person has higher - the guy in the left seat. He had the right to call the ball - meaning level of security. Your own staff tells you nothing is there, Comey gets into a tinkling match with the guy and now Mr. Boy Scout and ethics marks his information "diary", looks bad in so many ways. I will bet you a buck most of what was leaked was at least confidential and somebody is going to classify it as that. You can always reclassify after the fact - I will take that bet all day long. He will nor the others nor Trump will go to jail. That is why an E-4 gets pretty pi$$ed.

Sorry for the rants I sat through yesterday a game. I never leave games early as I went through the same grind these kids are going through now only our degrees were different - too much sun and I finally left when it was 62 to 7 - brutal to watch.

[Typical Lax Dad]

TLD,
Also Comey has a clearance that probably only one person has higher - the guy in the left seat. He had the right to call the ball - meaning level of security. Your own staff tells you nothing is there, Comey gets into a tinkling match with the guy and now Mr. Boy Scout and ethics marks his information "diary", looks bad in so many ways. I will bet you a buck most of what was leaked was at least confidential and somebody is going to classify it as that. You can always reclassify after the fact - I will take that bet all day long. He will nor the others nor Trump will go to jail. That is why an E-4 gets pretty pi$$ed.

Sorry for the rants I sat through yesterday a game. I never leave games early as I went through the same grind these kids are going through now only our degrees were different - too much sun and I finally left when it was 62 to 7 - brutal to watch.

https://www.mediamatters.org/sean-hanni ... on-hannity

I love college football. My cousin’s son will be making his SEC freshman debut soon. You give Trump too much respect. Guy is a dirtbag so the police were covering bases because he is the type of guy that will lie on you. You know the type.

[Trinity]

Picking on Comey for his memos is like being pissed Paul Revere broke curfew to warn us the enemy was coming. Barbara McQuade. Ex Fed prosecutor

[Typical Lax Dad]

Picking on Comey for his memos is like being ticked Paul Revere broke curfew to warn us the enemy was coming. Barbara McQuade. Ex Fed prosecutor

Yep. The faux outrage

[old salt]

There's a lot of similarity in the mishandling of classified material by Comey & Petraeus.
They took self-generated classified documents home with them, stored them in a non-secure space & shared them with one or more persons who were not authorized to view them (need to know) & not all had security clearances to view them (Comey's non-leaker lawyers, who saw then via e-mail).
In both cases, the classified content was not initially disclosed to the public (by Comey or Petraeus).
Some similarities to John Deutch too.

Comey used the same escape hatch he extended to HRC -- the difficulty in proving intent.
That escape hatch was not available to Petraeus or Deutch & they both reached misdemeanor plea agreements & ruined their chances for continued or future govt service, which is a loss to the country ico Petraeus, imho.
Deutch was granted clemency before his plea agreement was executed.
Petraeus was fired & paid a hefty fine.

Comey also participated in the plea deal Petraeus received.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... story.html

Inside a secure conference room on the sixth floor of the Justice Department in early 2014, top federal law enforcement ­officials gathered to hear what criminal charges prosecutors were contemplating against David H. Petraeus, the ­storied wartime general and former CIA director whose public career had ended about 15 months earlier over an extramarital affair.

Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. and FBI Director James B. Comey listened as prosecutors did a mock run-through of the government’s case, a preview of how they would present their evidence to Petraeus’s lawyers in order, they hoped, to force a guilty plea.

The presentation included felony charges: lying to the FBI and violating a section of the Espionage Act. A conviction on either carried potentially years in prison.

On April 23, 2015, Petraeus pleaded guilty in Charlotte. The judge upped the fine to $100,000.

A former senior Justice Department official said it was the “cleanest” possible outcome for both sides.

Holder, who was planning to step down and didn’t want to leave the case for the next attorney general, approved the settlement. He declined to comment. But he offered this explanation for his decision at a media event last year, when asked if there was a double standard that allowed Petraeus to plead to a misdemeanor when his department had zealously pursued others for similar alleged crimes.

“There were factors that made the resolution of the case appropriate,” Holder said. “There were some unique things that existed in that case that would have made the prosecution at the felony level and a conviction at the felony level very, very, very problematic.”

[Trinity]

What was retroactively confidential? That Trump insulted some world leader? Like they don’t know he insults everyone. Comey wasn’t sleeping with the dude, right? It was purely patriotic.

[Typical Lax Dad]

There's a lot of similarity in the mishandling of classified material by Comey & Petraeus.
They took self-generated classified documents home with them, stored them in a non-secure space & shared them with one or more persons who were not authorized to view them (need to know) & not all had security clearances to view them (Comey's non-leaker lawyers, who saw then via e-mail).
In both cases, the classified content was not initially disclosed to the public (by Comey or Petraeus).
Some similarities to John Deutch too.

Comey used the same escape hatch he extended to HRC -- the difficulty in proving intent.
That escape hatch was not available to Petraeus or Deutch & they both reached misdemeanor plea agreements & ruined their chances for continued or future govt service, which is a loss to the country ico Petraeus, imho.
Deutch was granted clemency before his plea agreement was executed.
Petraeus was fired & paid a hefty fine.

Comey also participated in the plea deal Petraeus received.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... story.html

Inside a secure conference room on the sixth floor of the Justice Department in early 2014, top federal law enforcement ­officials gathered to hear what criminal charges prosecutors were contemplating against David H. Petraeus, the ­storied wartime general and former CIA director whose public career had ended about 15 months earlier over an extramarital affair.

Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. and FBI Director James B. Comey listened as prosecutors did a mock run-through of the government’s case, a preview of how they would present their evidence to Petraeus’s lawyers in order, they hoped, to force a guilty plea.

The presentation included felony charges: lying to the FBI and violating a section of the Espionage Act. A conviction on either carried potentially years in prison.

On April 23, 2015, Petraeus pleaded guilty in Charlotte. The judge upped the fine to $100,000.

A former senior Justice Department official said it was the “cleanest” possible outcome for both sides.

Holder, who was planning to step down and didn’t want to leave the case for the next attorney general, approved the settlement. He declined to comment. But he offered this explanation for his decision at a media event last year, when asked if there was a double standard that allowed Petraeus to plead to a misdemeanor when his department had zealously pursued others for similar alleged crimes.

“There were factors that made the resolution of the case appropriate,” Holder said. “There were some unique things that existed in that case that would have made the prosecution at the felony level and a conviction at the felony level very, very, very problematic.”

Intent is a funny thing. Seems like the Trump Campaign was intent on working with Russia?

[Trinity]

170 contacts. Didn’t work out. Cost him his first two years of adoration.

[LandM]

TLD,
Good luck to cousins son, if he is not red-shirting as a freshman must be good athlete - sad part is we left early and a 5th year walk on scored a touchdown - those are the kids you cheer for. Went through the grind and he paid his way;

I respect the Office not necessarily the person. Jimmy Carter was uber smart but had no street skills - but I respected the Office.
Yes, I have dealt with DT's but in some cases "using" the name can help. I usually walked away from those transactions, was not worth the hassle. hence my decision not to vote for the big office and will probably do the same this go around.

Treat everyone equally - there should not be tiers - there are rules.

Trinity,
The Paul Revere analogy is a super stretch - I think when he broke bed check rules there was a foreign country that had troops on land and ships in the harbor and they were looking to over-take the country - I have been checking for Russian troops in my backyards and have yet to find one

I believe OS makes the case pretty well - Comey knew what he was doing and knew how to skirt the rules - he is not a BOY Scout or patriot - he is and has been an attention seeker. Imagine someone who thinks he is so important that he decides to LEAK information. Man, walk down the street and speak to John McCain - that would have started an investigation. Nope, leaks through his buddy to the press. Now that is guy I would not trust in a bad situation. When speaking to the President about Russian interference at the time he did - yeah - I would have classified that. Some of this leaking material IMHO will be reclassified. Seems like the biggest leakers besides DT are the FBI - now that is getting worrisome.

MD,
I think the military experience in many regards is relevant especially when it comes to classified information. Besides some of the best life stories come from being in . If I have offended you or anyone else, I will apologize but there are SOPs and they apply to all government officials including HRC and Comey - need to be fair and consistent or you start losing faith in the system.

[Typical Lax Dad]

TLD,
Good luck to cousins son, if he is not red-shirting as a freshman must be good athlete - sad part is we left early and a 5th year walk on scored a touchdown - those are the kids you cheer for. Went through the grind and he paid his way;

I respect the Office not necessarily the person. Jimmy Carter was uber smart but had no street skills - but I respected the Office.
Yes, I have dealt with DT's but in some cases "using" the name can help. I usually walked away from those transactions, was not worth the hassle. hence my decision not to vote for the big office and will probably do the same this go around.

Treat everyone equally - there should not be tiers - there are rules.

Trinity,
The Paul Revere analogy is a super stretch - I think when he broke bed check rules there was a foreign country that had troops on land and ships in the harbor and they were looking to over-take the country - I have been checking for Russian troops in my backyards and have yet to find one

I believe OS makes the case pretty well - Comey knew what he was doing and knew how to skirt the rules - he is not a BOY Scout or patriot - he is and has been an attention seeker. Imagine someone who thinks he is so important that he decides to LEAK information. Man, walk down the street and speak to John McCain - that would have started an investigation. Nope, leaks through his buddy to the press. Now that is guy I would not trust in a bad situation. When speaking to the President about Russian interference at the time he did - yeah - I would have classified that. Some of this leaking material IMHO will be reclassified. Seems like the biggest leakers besides DT are the FBI - now that is getting worrisome.

MD,
I think the military experience in many regards is relevant especially when it comes to classified information. Besides some of the best life stories come from being in . If I have offended you or anyone else, I will apologize but there are SOPs and they apply to all government officials including HRC and Comey - need to be fair and consistent or you start losing faith in the system.

You are right about cheering for those kids that put in a ton of hard work but don’t get to play much. I recall my son’s freshman year we were up on a team big and some kids that didn’t play much were playing. This kid scored a goal for us late and the place erupted with cheers. A few days later a guy posted how our fans had no clas and were rubbing it in. I sent him a PM explaining that the player had not played in two years and had been battling cancer. We were happy for him. He understood. My perspective on kids not playing changed once my son got to college. Not everyone plays but every player is important. At least in my son’s program, the walk-on was just as important as the recruited player.

As for losing faith in the system....The current administration had Russia working on their behalf in the Presidential campaign and made efforts to work with them....but that doesn’t cause anyone to lose faith.

[MDlaxfan76]

TLD,
Good luck to cousins son, if he is not red-shirting as a freshman must be good athlete - sad part is we left early and a 5th year walk on scored a touchdown - those are the kids you cheer for. Went through the grind and he paid his way;

I respect the Office not necessarily the person. Jimmy Carter was uber smart but had no street skills - but I respected the Office.
Yes, I have dealt with DT's but in some cases "using" the name can help. I usually walked away from those transactions, was not worth the hassle. hence my decision not to vote for the big office and will probably do the same this go around.

Treat everyone equally - there should not be tiers - there are rules.

Trinity,
The Paul Revere analogy is a super stretch - I think when he broke bed check rules there was a foreign country that had troops on land and ships in the harbor and they were looking to over-take the country - I have been checking for Russian troops in my backyards and have yet to find one

I believe OS makes the case pretty well - Comey knew what he was doing and knew how to skirt the rules - he is not a BOY Scout or patriot - he is and has been an attention seeker. Imagine someone who thinks he is so important that he decides to LEAK information. Man, walk down the street and speak to John McCain - that would have started an investigation. Nope, leaks through his buddy to the press. Now that is guy I would not trust in a bad situation. When speaking to the President about Russian interference at the time he did - yeah - I would have classified that. Some of this leaking material IMHO will be reclassified. Seems like the biggest leakers besides DT are the FBI - now that is getting worrisome.

MD,
I think the military experience in many regards is relevant especially when it comes to classified information. Besides some of the best life stories come from being in . If I have offended you or anyone else, I will apologize but there are SOPs and they apply to all government officials including HRC and Comey - need to be fair and consistent or you start losing faith in the system.

You are right about cheering for those kids that put in a ton of hard work but don’t get to play much. I recall my son’s freshman year we were up on a team big and some kids that didn’t play much were playing. This kid scored a goal for us late and the place erupted with cheers. A few days later a guy posted how our fans had no clas and were rubbing it in. I sent him a PM explaining that the player had not played in two years and had been battling cancer. We were happy for him. He understood. My perspective on kids not playing changed once my son got to college. Not everyone plays but every player is important. At least in my son’s program, the walk-on was just as important as the recruited player.

As for losing faith in the system....The current administration had Russia working on their behalf in the Presidential campaign and made efforts to work with them....but that doesn’t cause anyone to lose faith.

Agreed re every player being important. If the coaches and the team's leadership successfully creates that culture, good things happen, whether on the scoreboard or in life.

On the 'faith in the system' I think what we're predominantly seeing among those who think its not a big deal that the Russians helped Trump win and he welcomed the assistance is that they long ago actually did 'lose faith in the system'.

If you follow many of our fellow poster's discussions, it's pretty apparent that they are immensely cynical about how our system works, who pulls the strings, the dishonesty of politicians, the inherent badness of 'big government', etc. I could go on and on.

I don't think this started with Trump, though clearly he's tapped into and grossly stoked these deep seated levels of cynicism. DEEP STATE, FAKE NEWS, and the constant attack and disabuse on the rule of law...again, I could go on and on. But it didn't begin with Trump.

Looking back historically, I know that in my lifetime, assassinations, civil rights abuses, Vietnam falsehoods by the military brass as well as top civilian officials, and then Watergate crushed much of the idealistic views many of us had growing up. For my part, as a student of American history and world history, I remained stubbornly idealistic about the virtues of our 'system', imperfect as it is, the 'American experiment', relative to many other approaches throughout history. I made sense of the flaws of the system through the lens of several of our founders and their philosophical progenitors who recognized that people are not all inherently good, and such people, especially those in power, have the capacity to do great harm if not constrained in their exercise of power. This led them to insist on various such constraints, balances of power under the rule of law not men, and ways in which the system could evolve in response to abuses of power.

That's why the rise of the 'strong man', the authoritarian, is such an anathema to me.

However, from all that I can glean, many others took away a different lesson from various demonstrations of corruption leading to their cynicism. They've largely given up on what I still hold onto. They instead claim a false sort of patriotism that embraces MAGA and the strong man. They expect him to be dishonest, even revel in it, as long as he gives voice to their cynicism and, in many cases, their bigotries. Or lines their pocket, or at least promises to do so.

LandM,
Sure, being in the military might give one a sense of the rules on classified information, but most military rarely get anywhere near actual classified information, much less TS SCI. A whole lot of folks other than the military go through heavy security clearances and training that most military folks never do.

Salty keeps claiming that Comey leaked classified information. That's not what the IG found. He also keeps claiming that the issue rested on 'proving intent', but that's not what the IG found either, as the issue was instead whether classified information had actually been leaked or not. And the answer was fundamentally no. Indeed, the evidence showed that Comey took pains to exclude classified information from what was released.

He also tries to set up a false equivalency with Petraeus' errors (both mishandled sensitive and/or classified information), but Petraeus knowingly shared classified info with his lover. Not so Comey. I hope history treats Petraeus well, despite this error, but it was certainly more serious than Comey's. And, for our purposes though not the IG's, here's where intent does come in: Petraeus' intent had no honorable or patriotic aspect. Comey's did.

That said, the IG found Comey's actions deserving of sharp reprimand, as the rules and guidelines on how to handle sensitive (not classified) information were abused and that precedent needs to be rejected. I'm good with that.

[Typical Lax Dad]

TLD,
Good luck to cousins son, if he is not red-shirting as a freshman must be good athlete - sad part is we left early and a 5th year walk on scored a touchdown - those are the kids you cheer for. Went through the grind and he paid his way;

I respect the Office not necessarily the person. Jimmy Carter was uber smart but had no street skills - but I respected the Office.
Yes, I have dealt with DT's but in some cases "using" the name can help. I usually walked away from those transactions, was not worth the hassle. hence my decision not to vote for the big office and will probably do the same this go around.

Treat everyone equally - there should not be tiers - there are rules.

Trinity,
The Paul Revere analogy is a super stretch - I think when he broke bed check rules there was a foreign country that had troops on land and ships in the harbor and they were looking to over-take the country - I have been checking for Russian troops in my backyards and have yet to find one

I believe OS makes the case pretty well - Comey knew what he was doing and knew how to skirt the rules - he is not a BOY Scout or patriot - he is and has been an attention seeker. Imagine someone who thinks he is so important that he decides to LEAK information. Man, walk down the street and speak to John McCain - that would have started an investigation. Nope, leaks through his buddy to the press. Now that is guy I would not trust in a bad situation. When speaking to the President about Russian interference at the time he did - yeah - I would have classified that. Some of this leaking material IMHO will be reclassified. Seems like the biggest leakers besides DT are the FBI - now that is getting worrisome.

MD,
I think the military experience in many regards is relevant especially when it comes to classified information. Besides some of the best life stories come from being in . If I have offended you or anyone else, I will apologize but there are SOPs and they apply to all government officials including HRC and Comey - need to be fair and consistent or you start losing faith in the system.

You are right about cheering for those kids that put in a ton of hard work but don’t get to play much. I recall my son’s freshman year we were up on a team big and some kids that didn’t play much were playing. This kid scored a goal for us late and the place erupted with cheers. A few days later a guy posted how our fans had no clas and were rubbing it in. I sent him a PM explaining that the player had not played in two years and had been battling cancer. We were happy for him. He understood. My perspective on kids not playing changed once my son got to college. Not everyone plays but every player is important. At least in my son’s program, the walk-on was just as important as the recruited player.

As for losing faith in the system....The current administration had Russia working on their behalf in the Presidential campaign and made efforts to work with them....but that doesn’t cause anyone to lose faith.

Agreed re every player being important. If the coaches and the team's leadership successfully creates that culture, good things happen, whether on the scoreboard or in life.

On the 'faith in the system' I think what we're predominantly seeing among those who think its not a big deal that the Russians helped Trump win and he welcomed the assistance is that they long ago actually did 'lose faith in the system'.

If you follow many of our fellow poster's discussions, it's pretty apparent that they are immensely cynical about how our system works, who pulls the strings, the dishonesty of politicians, the inherent badness of 'big government', etc. I could go on and on.

I don't think this started with Trump, though clearly he's tapped into and grossly stoked these deep seated levels of cynicism. DEEP STATE, FAKE NEWS, and the constant attack and disabuse on the rule of law...again, I could go on and on. But it didn't begin with Trump.

Looking back historically, I know that in my lifetime, assassinations, civil rights abuses, Vietnam falsehoods by the military brass as well as top civilian officials, and then Watergate crushed much of the idealistic views many of us had growing up. For my part, as a student of American history and world history, I remained stubbornly idealistic about the virtues of our 'system', imperfect as it is, the 'American experiment', relative to many other approaches throughout history. I made sense of the flaws of the system through the lens of several of our founders and their philosophical progenitors who recognized that people are not all inherently good, and such people, especially those in power, have the capacity to do great harm if not constrained in their exercise of power. This led them to insist on various such constraints, balances of power under the rule of law not men, and ways in which the system could evolve in response to abuses of power.

That's why the rise of the 'strong man', the authoritarian, is such an anathema to me.

However, from all that I can glean, many others took away a different lesson from various demonstrations of corruption leading to their cynicism. They've largely given up on what I still hold onto. They instead claim a false sort of patriotism that embraces MAGA and the strong man. They expect him to be dishonest, even revel in it, as long as he gives voice to their cynicism and, in many cases, their bigotries. Or lines their pocket, or at least promises to do so.

LandM,
Sure, being in the military might give one a sense of the rules on classified information, but most military rarely get anywhere near actual classified information, much less TS SCI. A whole lot of folks other than the military go through heavy security clearances and training that most military folks never do.

Salty keeps claiming that Comey leaked classified information. That's not what the IG found. He also keeps claiming that the issue rested on 'proving intent', but that's not what the IG found either, as the issue was instead whether classified information had actually been leaked or not. And the answer was fundamentally no. Indeed, the evidence showed that Comey took pains to exclude classified information from what was released.

He also tries to set up a false equivalency with Petraeus' errors (both mishandled sensitive and/or classified information), but Petraeus knowingly shared classified info with his lover. Not so Comey. I hope history treats Petraeus well, despite this error, but it was certainly more serious than Comey's. And, for our purposes though not the IG's, here's where intent does come in: Petraeus' intent had no honorable or patriotic aspect. Comey's did.

That said, the IG found Comey's actions deserving of sharp reprimand, as the rules and guidelines on how to handle sensitive (not classified) information were abused and that precedent needs to be rejected. I'm good with that.

Yep. In 2019, Flynn and Manafort are the good guys and Comey and Strzok are the bad guys.

[youthathletics]

Not true, all 4 are equal liars...something that you feel very strongly about, rightfully so.

[MDlaxfan76]

Not true, all 4 are equal liars...something that you feel very strongly about, rightfully so.

Really...they are "equal liars"???
Pretty sure I'd rate Manafort as considerably worse than Flynn.

And I don't see Comey or Strozk as "liars" nor did the IG.

But you do sum it up for us.
In Trumpworld, convicted liars, for lying (and other crimes), are "equal" those who break guidelines.