"The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

[holmes435]

I find the irony of the Deep State delusion quite interesting.

The modern organized government has been hyper-vigilant against anyone remotely left wing to far left wing for decades. Martin Luther King, John Lennon, Hemingway, Malcolm X and McCarthyism and more were just the start with the centralized intelligent services.

The left got beat down for decades, and now the right wing gets slightly investigated and only chastised, yet they are crying bloody murder. It's the classic story of a bully getting finally punched in the mouth and showing his real side. And even now the punch in the mouth is in reality a slight tap on the arm. The real snowflakes have shown themselves, and it's pretty embarrassing.

[old salt]

Salty. Very simple. Wray should investigate any pols that merit investigation, D or R.

Which is exactly what Comey did. He investigated trump and Hill after all.

FBI does that all the time. There’s an entire public corruption unit in doj dedicated to doing that.

This deep state conspiracy narrative is such nonsense. Wray absolutely would have investigated trump based on trumps behavior. He’d be negligent not to.

So if Comey's a hero, what does that make the DoJ IG ? In both reports, on both investigations, he excoriated Comey
Comey didn't investigate HRC until the Benghazi Comm tipped the IC & DoJ about her emails & they investigated her first.
Compare how HRC's associates were handled in her investigation with how Trump's were.
HRC & associates were allowed to destroy evidence & hide 30k emails before they could be reviewed.
Public corruption unit ? This was supposed to be a counter intel investigation.
There were not grounds for a public corruption investigation.
How many public corruption unit investigations are leaked if they don't produce indictments ?
Would Wray have leaked to the media ?
Would Wray have enabled the publication of something like the dossier ?
When Durham, Horowitz & Huber finish up, Barr will tell us if Trump merited investigation.
Nothing merited the leaks that convicted Trump in the eyes of the public before the investigations were complete.

[old salt]

So which (D) candidates should FBI Director Wray be investigating, surveilling & spying upon ? There's so many of them.

Let's see. Using the publicly available information that Russians are actively messing with our elections as they were in 2016, I'd say any of them who meet or speak with Russian nationals.

Wow. That was hard.

Any other questions?

How 'bout if they exploited their position for advantage with say -- the Chinese or Ukrainians ?

[old salt]

So you hold the leader of the free world----and his minions who were appointed, not voted in----- to a lower standard than a career Federal worker?

Come on. You can't be serious. Same standard, fine. Higher standard, fine. But lower? Seriously?

Yes I do -- for good reason.
The DoJ is not just a law enforcement officer. He's also charged with investigating for compliance with DoJ policies & rules.
There's no IG enforcing compliance by a President. The voters put him in office & Congress removes him.
in the final analysis, a President gets away with whatever the voting public will tolerate.
Not so with a federal worker.

WOW.

So acting criminally to achieve election, if successful, inoculates a President from criminal prosecution. Above the law, rather than actually bound to protect the Constitution and the rule of law.

Imagine this is some a-hole on the left side of the ledger.

Of course, what you are saying is about process, not whether a President should actually be held to a higher or a lower standard (by you, the voter), which is what a fan keeps pressing you to answer.

You are answering lower, right?

You get another chance at this one, Salty.

There were only 2 choices in 2016. I chose neither.
Comey was not elected. Trump was.
"acting criminally to achieve election" ? Prove it.
You've been accusing Trump of crimes for 2+ years now.
Crossfire Hurricane & Mueller are done.
You're still in Lawrence O'Donnell " if true " land.

You are holding a President to a lower standard than the head of the FBI, under the logic that one is elected and the latter is not.

For a President you don't care if he's done something criminal, much less the obvious corrupt and dishonest, but you think the FBI Director's decisions to break DOJ guidelines, though not breaking any laws, even with the intent of protecting the nation against the Russians, is way worse than anything, even criminal, that the POTUS does.

Your logic, apparently, is that the President, given that he's an elected official, and moreover can't be indicted for a criminal act (only according to DOJ guideline) is to be held to a lower standard by you, the voter.

That's what you said, as I heard it.

Now, if you want to clear this up, I keep giving you extra swings at the ball but for some (perhaps obvious) reason you can't get the bat off your shoulder to answer directly.

You want to hide behind the "I didn't vote" screen, but that ain't cutting it, Salty.

Stop putting words in my mouth (as usual).
I didn't say I don't care. With elected officials, we can't do anything about it.
We don't have to tolerate it with the Fed employees. Nobody elected them.
You continue your accusations of criminal activity. When are you going to put up or shut up ?
Your TDS fantasies have fizzled out.
Your contempt for the will of the voters is obvious, when they don't agree with you.
Apparently you have no problem using the powers of the govt to undermine, or even remove, their duly elected leader,

Actually, you've repeatedly said you don't care. You've doubled down again and again that POTUS is above the law, in a way no other politician or federal employee would be (whether you like it or not, he's a federal employee too and took and oath of office). But you don't care.

But "we don't have to tolerate it with Fed employees"...actually you and I don't get any direct say about Fed employees, that's their bosses job. We do get a direct say in who gets elected POTUS, one of only two jobs that all Americans have a direct say in. So, if there's ANYONE who we don't have to "tolerate" when they are dishonest, corrupt, or otherwise commit offenses deserving to be canned, it's POTUS and VEEP.

But, nah, 'cause it's Trump, we should give him a pass and "tolerate" him. After all, he and his Campaign welcomed Russian interference, and then lied repeatedly about it. He lied again and again to the American people, lies that had he told the truth would have likely prevented him from being elected, including that he was trying to do a major business deal with Russia late into the Campaign, and continued to lie about it once elected.

But, nah, you don't care.

Instead, you want to attack those who saw him for what he is, a corrupt, compromised egomaniac with zero respect for the rule of law much less the US Constitution he is sworn to protect.

Show me where I said I don't care. I acknowledged that we were powerless to do anything about it unless & until Mueller delivered the kill shot.
...how'd that work out ? You keep throwing the same manure up against the wall then crying when none of it sticks.

Do you think your TDS rants here count for anything other than your own therapeutic denials of the reality of the situation.
Trump didn't do the stuff he was accused of doing or you suspected him of doing.
The entire law enforcement & intel apparatus of the US & our allies came to the same conclusion that Strzok texted Lisa --
there's no there, there. Your saying otherwise does not make it so.

[old salt]

So which (D) candidates should FBI Director Wray be investigating, surveilling & spying upon ? There's so many of them.

Let's see. Using the publicly available information that Russians are actively messing with our elections as they were in 2016, I'd say any of them who meet or speak with Russian nationals.

Wow. That was hard.

Any other questions?

HRC's contractor Fusion GPS had a lot more meetings with the Russian lawyer lady than anyone in the Trump campaign.
How much did the DNC & HRC campaign pay Fusion for Steele's Russian disinformation ?
Were Comey's cub scouts spying on Fusion ?

[LandM]

Afan
Back in 84 in Sunnyvale in the Blue Cube supposedly as told monthly in security briefings the only place that had more Russian spies was DC. Told places not to go to, what to avoid, allowed to grow our hair outside the bounds and mostly never wore a uniform, personal protection. Russians been here a long time and assuming they are still running rampant in the Valley.

Gg - scary that it is acceptable for the the guy who leads supposedly the best law enforcement agency in the world who was told by his own staff there was nothing there that he went to the extent he did. Catch a cab or go for a walk and see some Congress members or Senators. They love to investigate

TLD why is it a BFD is because the guy has a clearance by claiming it was a personal diary notes he skirted allot of rules. He knew what he was doing. Also anyone who has had a clearance like Clinton knew what she was doing. There should be no hall passes - it is a privilege to have a clearance but it also comes with responsibility- how do you explain to an E-4 that the rules are different?

[Typical Lax Dad]

Afan
Back in 84 in Sunnyvale in the Blue Cube supposedly as told monthly in security briefings the only place that had more Russian spies was DC. Told places not to go to, what to avoid, allowed to grow our hair outside the bounds and mostly never wore a uniform, personal protection. Russians been here a long time and assuming they are still running rampant in the Valley.

Gg - scary that it is acceptable for the the guy who leads supposedly the best law enforcement agency in the world who was told by his own staff there was nothing there that he went to the extent he did. Catch a cab or go for a walk and see some Congress members or Senators. They love to investigate

TLD why is it a BFD is because the guy has a clearance by claiming it was a personal diary notes he skirted allot of rules. He knew what he was doing. Also anyone who has had a clearance like Clinton knew what she was doing. There should be no hall passes - it is a privilege to have a clearance but it also comes with responsibility- how do you explain to an E-4 that the rules are different?

It ain’t illegal unless he is prosecuted and at best it’s a silly process crime. BFD.

[DMac]

If you're an E4 it's a BFD, and the answer to L&M's question is, through bars.

[MDlaxfan76]

So you hold the leader of the free world----and his minions who were appointed, not voted in----- to a lower standard than a career Federal worker?

Come on. You can't be serious. Same standard, fine. Higher standard, fine. But lower? Seriously?

Yes I do -- for good reason.
The DoJ is not just a law enforcement officer. He's also charged with investigating for compliance with DoJ policies & rules.
There's no IG enforcing compliance by a President. The voters put him in office & Congress removes him.
in the final analysis, a President gets away with whatever the voting public will tolerate.
Not so with a federal worker.

WOW.

So acting criminally to achieve election, if successful, inoculates a President from criminal prosecution. Above the law, rather than actually bound to protect the Constitution and the rule of law.

Imagine this is some a-hole on the left side of the ledger.

Of course, what you are saying is about process, not whether a President should actually be held to a higher or a lower standard (by you, the voter), which is what a fan keeps pressing you to answer.

You are answering lower, right?

You get another chance at this one, Salty.

There were only 2 choices in 2016. I chose neither.
Comey was not elected. Trump was.
"acting criminally to achieve election" ? Prove it.
You've been accusing Trump of crimes for 2+ years now.
Crossfire Hurricane & Mueller are done.
You're still in Lawrence O'Donnell " if true " land.

You are holding a President to a lower standard than the head of the FBI, under the logic that one is elected and the latter is not.

For a President you don't care if he's done something criminal, much less the obvious corrupt and dishonest, but you think the FBI Director's decisions to break DOJ guidelines, though not breaking any laws, even with the intent of protecting the nation against the Russians, is way worse than anything, even criminal, that the POTUS does.

Your logic, apparently, is that the President, given that he's an elected official, and moreover can't be indicted for a criminal act (only according to DOJ guideline) is to be held to a lower standard by you, the voter.

That's what you said, as I heard it.

Now, if you want to clear this up, I keep giving you extra swings at the ball but for some (perhaps obvious) reason you can't get the bat off your shoulder to answer directly.

You want to hide behind the "I didn't vote" screen, but that ain't cutting it, Salty.

Stop putting words in my mouth (as usual).
I didn't say I don't care. With elected officials, we can't do anything about it.
We don't have to tolerate it with the Fed employees. Nobody elected them.
You continue your accusations of criminal activity. When are you going to put up or shut up ?
Your TDS fantasies have fizzled out.
Your contempt for the will of the voters is obvious, when they don't agree with you.
Apparently you have no problem using the powers of the govt to undermine, or even remove, their duly elected leader,

Actually, you've repeatedly said you don't care. You've doubled down again and again that POTUS is above the law, in a way no other politician or federal employee would be (whether you like it or not, he's a federal employee too and took and oath of office). But you don't care.

But "we don't have to tolerate it with Fed employees"...actually you and I don't get any direct say about Fed employees, that's their bosses job. We do get a direct say in who gets elected POTUS, one of only two jobs that all Americans have a direct say in. So, if there's ANYONE who we don't have to "tolerate" when they are dishonest, corrupt, or otherwise commit offenses deserving to be canned, it's POTUS and VEEP.

But, nah, 'cause it's Trump, we should give him a pass and "tolerate" him. After all, he and his Campaign welcomed Russian interference, and then lied repeatedly about it. He lied again and again to the American people, lies that had he told the truth would have likely prevented him from being elected, including that he was trying to do a major business deal with Russia late into the Campaign, and continued to lie about it once elected.

But, nah, you don't care.

Instead, you want to attack those who saw him for what he is, a corrupt, compromised egomaniac with zero respect for the rule of law much less the US Constitution he is sworn to protect.

Show me where I said I don't care. I acknowledged that we were powerless to do anything about it unless & until Mueller delivered the kill shot.
...how'd that work out ? You keep throwing the same manure up against the wall then crying when none of it sticks.

Do you think your TDS rants here count for anything other than your own therapeutic denials of the reality of the situation.
Trump didn't do the stuff he was accused of doing or you suspected him of doing.
The entire law enforcement & intel apparatus of the US & our allies came to the same conclusion that Strzok texted Lisa --
there's no there, there. Your saying otherwise does not make it so.

Sheesh, Salty, you've done so over and over again.
You've repeatedly set the bar as "kill shot", criminal indictment, when it's been made clear that no such criminal action (for Trump specifically) was to come out of DOJ while in office, and no such will happen while the Senate is in GOP control. Post-office, whole other matter.

And you continuously have downplayed what is obvious about Trump.
That he denied, falsely, that he was doing business with the Russians, both earlier and actually during the Campaign, that the Russians made a major effort to interfere with the Campaign and Trump and his Campaign welcomed that assistance, even provided material assistance to the Russians with polling data and internal strategy, that they lied about numerous meetings with Russians, that he clearly sought to obstruct the investigation, the latter actually being criminally indictable post office.

All of that was in the Mueller Report.
Yet, you have downplayed it.

Moreover, you've downplayed that he's surrounded himself with liars and corrupt personnel, with most of those not so eventually directly or indirectly pushed by Trump out of their jobs, including those who believed that working with allies to confront Russia and other adversaries is essential. That Trump has resisted and undermined sanctions against the Russians, that he has undermined alliances with key allies, that he's repeatedly made baldly false claims, false on their face, and made repeated racist statements and/or clear dog whistles to the the most racist in our society.

You've downplayed all that.

If that's not 'not caring' I don't know what is.

Instead, you focus all of your criticism on the fictional 'Deep State' and purported transgressions of life long law enforcement officials focused on combating the Russian interference and public corruption.

Apparently you 'care' about those transgressions, but not about those of the POTUS and his cronies.

Indeed, when asked directly who you hold to a "higher standard", Trump or Comey, you say Comey.
A guy who has made his life's work pursuing justice and the rule of law instead of a guy who has repeatedly made clear he cares nothing for the rule of law other than how it might impinge upon his capacity to help himself economically or otherwise.

You claim that's because Comey was a "Fed employee", though Trump is as well.
Moreover, you as a voter actually have a direct say in who is elected POTUS ( "care" ), whereas Comey was actually fired.

I don't see any other possible conclusion from your years of posts, including those in this thread.

Care. Fire Trump.

[MDlaxfan76]

If you're an E4 it's a BFD, and the answer to L&M's question is, through bars.

TLD was being sarcastic.
He was simply repeating the arguments made by Salty and Trumpists on these threads when applied to various folks they favor.

[MDlaxfan76]

I find the irony of the Deep State delusion quite interesting.

The modern organized government has been hyper-vigilant against anyone remotely left wing to far left wing for decades. Martin Luther King, John Lennon, Hemingway, Malcolm X and McCarthyism and more were just the start with the centralized intelligent services.

The left got beat down for decades, and now the right wing gets slightly investigated and only chastised, yet they are crying bloody murder. It's the classic story of a bully getting finally punched in the mouth and showing his real side. And even now the punch in the mouth is in reality a slight tap on the arm. The real snowflakes have shown themselves, and it's pretty embarrassing.

Pretty sure they have no shame.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Afan
Back in 84 in Sunnyvale in the Blue Cube supposedly as told monthly in security briefings the only place that had more Russian spies was DC. Told places not to go to, what to avoid, allowed to grow our hair outside the bounds and mostly never wore a uniform, personal protection. Russians been here a long time and assuming they are still running rampant in the Valley.

Gg - scary that it is acceptable for the the guy who leads supposedly the best law enforcement agency in the world who was told by his own staff there was nothing there that he went to the extent he did. Catch a cab or go for a walk and see some Congress members or Senators. They love to investigate

TLD why is it a BFD is because the guy has a clearance by claiming it was a personal diary notes he skirted allot of rules. He knew what he was doing. Also anyone who has had a clearance like Clinton knew what she was doing. There should be no hall passes - it is a privilege to have a clearance but it also comes with responsibility- how do you explain to an E-4 that the rules are different?

I haven’t really paid attention, what classified information did Comey send out to the media by way of his attorney friend? He was a whistleblower. Devin Nunes should be happy. At best, this is no more than a process crime. BFD..

I never paid attention to what an E-whatever number means. Friends that worked on military bases knew all those designations but I never paid any attention to it....I should ask my sister...She started working on a base at 14 every summer through High School.

[old salt]

Sheesh, Salty, you've done so over and over again.
You've repeatedly set the bar as "kill shot", criminal indictment, when it's been made clear that no such criminal action (for Trump specifically) was to come out of DOJ while in office, and no such will happen while the Senate is in GOP control. Post-office, whole other matter.

And you continuously have downplayed what is obvious about Trump.
That he denied, falsely, that he was doing business with the Russians, both earlier and actually during the Campaign, that the Russians made a major effort to interfere with the Campaign and Trump and his Campaign welcomed that assistance, even provided material assistance to the Russians with polling data and internal strategy, that they lied about numerous meetings with Russians, that he clearly sought to obstruct the investigation, the latter actually being criminally indictable post office.

All of that was in the Mueller Report.
Yet, you have downplayed it.

Moreover, you've downplayed that he's surrounded himself with liars and corrupt personnel, with most of those not so eventually directly or indirectly pushed by Trump out of their jobs, including those who believed that working with allies to confront Russia and other adversaries is essential. That Trump has resisted and undermined sanctions against the Russians, that he has undermined alliances with key allies, that he's repeatedly made baldly false claims, false on their face, and made repeated racist statements and/or clear dog whistles to the the most racist in our society.

You've downplayed all that.

If that's not 'not caring' I don't know what is.

Instead, you focus all of your criticism on the fictional 'Deep State' and purported transgressions of life long law enforcement officials focused on combating the Russian interference and public corruption.

Apparently you 'care' about those transgressions, but not about those of the POTUS and his cronies.

Indeed, when asked directly who you hold to a "higher standard", Trump or Comey, you say Comey.
A guy who has made his life's work pursuing justice and the rule of law instead of a guy who has repeatedly made clear he cares nothing for the rule of law other than how it might impinge upon his capacity to help himself economically or otherwise.

You claim that's because Comey was a "Fed employee", though Trump is as well.
Moreover, you as a voter actually have a direct say in who is elected POTUS ( "care" ), whereas Comey was actually fired.

I don't see any other possible conclusion from your years of posts, including those in this thread.

Care. Fire Trump.

Wrong. Kill shot = proof of collusion, cooperation, or conspiracy with Russians sufficient to yield impeachment.
...& don't give me the (R) Senators dodge. That didn't stop (R) Senators from showing Nixon the door because there really was a there, there.
Enough (R) Senators would vote to convict & remove if the evidence justified removal from office & failure to do so threatened their re-election.
Many would be happy to be rid of Trump & ride into the next election with a Pres Pence & VP Haley.
All the rest is just partisan whining,

The rest of your whining about Trump is over style rather than substance, rhetoric rather than results.
None of it justifies overturning the results of an election.
I care about surviving the Trump Presidency & accomplishing good things for the country in the process.
I've said from the start that our institutions are strong enough to endure a Trump Presidency.

Trump's election represents the dissatisfaction with the status quo by enough of the population to elect a President.
If the establishment doesn't acknowledge that & modify our govt policies & actions accordingly, we'll get someone worse than Trump in the future.

Multiple wrongs do not make a right. Nothing that Trump has done justifies these abuses of govt power undertaken to prevent his election, remove him from office & undermine his Presidency.
The only things left to determine are how widespread that effort was & the details involved.
The good news, it does not appear to be widespread. Hopefully the primary players have already been identified.

[a fan]

How 'bout if they exploited their position for advantage with say -- the Chinese or Ukrainians ?

We're still talking about the Dem candidates for President, correct?

You're going to have to be more specific, because I have no clue what you mean by "exploited their position for advantage".

[a fan]

HRC's contractor Fusion GPS had a lot more meetings with the Russian lawyer lady than anyone in the Trump campaign.

Great. Make that a felony. I have ZERO problem with that.

We've been over this. I have NO CLUE why you think that I'm happy about the DNC buying intel from a freaking British Spy.

Felony. Make it a felony to do that. I'd sign that bill yesterday.

[Typical Lax Dad]

HRC's contractor Fusion GPS had a lot more meetings with the Russian lawyer lady than anyone in the Trump campaign.

Great. Make that a felony. I have ZERO problem with that.

We've been over this. I have NO CLUE why you think that I'm happy about the DNC buying intel from a freaking British Spy.

Felony. Make it a felony to do that. I'd sign that bill yesterday.

Do you know if any “Dems” lied about their meetings? I agree with you making it illegal.

[old salt]

HRC's contractor Fusion GPS had a lot more meetings with the Russian lawyer lady than anyone in the Trump campaign.

Great. Make that a felony. I have ZERO problem with that.

We've been over this. I have NO CLUE why you think that I'm happy about the DNC buying intel from a freaking British Spy.

Felony. Make it a felony to do that. I'd sign that bill yesterday.

Do you know if any “Dems” lied about their meetings? I agree with you making it illegal.

Nobody asked 'em about it.

Remember the talking point that a (R) paid for the dossier ?
Didn't you use that one ?

[Typical Lax Dad]

HRC's contractor Fusion GPS had a lot more meetings with the Russian lawyer lady than anyone in the Trump campaign.

Great. Make that a felony. I have ZERO problem with that.

We've been over this. I have NO CLUE why you think that I'm happy about the DNC buying intel from a freaking British Spy.

Felony. Make it a felony to do that. I'd sign that bill yesterday.

Do you know if any “Dems” lied about their meetings? I agree with you making it illegal.

Nobody asked 'em about it.

Remember the talking point that a (R) paid for the dossier ?
Didn't you use that one ?

I don’t know who paid for it. I never paid much attention to the Dossier. You did.

[MDlaxfan76]

Sheesh, Salty, you've done so over and over again.
You've repeatedly set the bar as "kill shot", criminal indictment, when it's been made clear that no such criminal action (for Trump specifically) was to come out of DOJ while in office, and no such will happen while the Senate is in GOP control. Post-office, whole other matter.

And you continuously have downplayed what is obvious about Trump.
That he denied, falsely, that he was doing business with the Russians, both earlier and actually during the Campaign, that the Russians made a major effort to interfere with the Campaign and Trump and his Campaign welcomed that assistance, even provided material assistance to the Russians with polling data and internal strategy, that they lied about numerous meetings with Russians, that he clearly sought to obstruct the investigation, the latter actually being criminally indictable post office.

All of that was in the Mueller Report.
Yet, you have downplayed it.

Moreover, you've downplayed that he's surrounded himself with liars and corrupt personnel, with most of those not so eventually directly or indirectly pushed by Trump out of their jobs, including those who believed that working with allies to confront Russia and other adversaries is essential. That Trump has resisted and undermined sanctions against the Russians, that he has undermined alliances with key allies, that he's repeatedly made baldly false claims, false on their face, and made repeated racist statements and/or clear dog whistles to the the most racist in our society.

You've downplayed all that.

If that's not 'not caring' I don't know what is.

Instead, you focus all of your criticism on the fictional 'Deep State' and purported transgressions of life long law enforcement officials focused on combating the Russian interference and public corruption.

Apparently you 'care' about those transgressions, but not about those of the POTUS and his cronies.

Indeed, when asked directly who you hold to a "higher standard", Trump or Comey, you say Comey.
A guy who has made his life's work pursuing justice and the rule of law instead of a guy who has repeatedly made clear he cares nothing for the rule of law other than how it might impinge upon his capacity to help himself economically or otherwise.

You claim that's because Comey was a "Fed employee", though Trump is as well.
Moreover, you as a voter actually have a direct say in who is elected POTUS ( "care" ), whereas Comey was actually fired.

I don't see any other possible conclusion from your years of posts, including those in this thread.

Care. Fire Trump.

Wrong. Kill shot = proof of collusion, cooperation, or conspiracy with Russians sufficient to yield impeachment.
...& don't give me the (R) Senators dodge. That didn't stop (R) Senators from showing Nixon the door because there really was a there, there.
Enough (R) Senators would vote to convict & remove if the evidence justified removal from office & failure to do so threatened their re-election.
Many would be happy to be rid of Trump & ride into the next election with a Pres Pence & VP Haley.
All the rest is just partisan whining,

The rest of your whining about Trump is over style rather than substance, rhetoric rather than results.
None of it justifies overturning the results of an election.
I care about surviving the Trump Presidency & accomplishing good things for the country in the process.
I've said from the start that our institutions are strong enough to endure a Trump Presidency.

Trump's election represents the dissatisfaction with the status quo by enough of the population to elect a President.
If the establishment doesn't acknowledge that & modify our govt policies & actions accordingly, we'll get someone worse than Trump in the future.

Multiple wrongs do not make a right. Nothing that Trump has done justifies these abuses of govt power undertaken to prevent his election, remove him from office & undermine his Presidency.
The only things left to determine are how widespread that effort was & the details involved.
The good news, it does not appear to be widespread. Hopefully the primary players have already been identified.

There is some stuff in there on which we could agree.

But a whole lot of BS too.

Trump alone is responsible for his lying, his dishonesty, his welcoming of Russian interference, his surrounding himself with so many dishonest sycophants.

No one else.

You and I will also need to disagree as to whether this version of the GOP leadership would have had the stones to convict on impeachment. From my perspective, as an R who originally supported Nixon, a lifetime of voting GOP, I think this GOP is totally cowed by Trump and Trumpism. I was hoping otherwise, and certainly I found ample basis in the Mueller Report to justify impeachment, but it became clear that they would not do so no matter what. Perhaps if McCain was alive, guys like Flake hadn’t been pushed out, it would be different but I don’t see more than a couple Senators with any backbone left.

[old salt]

You and I will also need to disagree as to whether this version of the GOP leadership would have had the stones to convict on impeachment. From my perspective, as an R who originally supported Nixon, a lifetime of voting GOP, I think this GOP is totally cowed by Trump and Trumpism. I was hoping otherwise, and certainly I found ample basis in the Mueller Report to justify impeachment, but it became clear that they would not do so no matter what.

We'll never know because Mueller didn't deliver the goods -- because there wasn't any there, there.
It wouldn't take all the Senate (R)'s, just enough to get to 67.
Enough moderates would have dumped Trump had Mueller delivered the evidence that allowed them to hold their seats.
Just off the top, I see any (R) Senators from blue states, former rivals, long serving establishment members, like :
Snow, Murkowski, Rubio, Romney, Toomey, Burr, Corker (while there), Alexander, Sasse, Cruz, Coryn, Tillis, Issacson, & maybe even Mitch, Thune, Blunt & Barrasso leadership team. opting for Pence/Haley, if the evidence was solid & compelling to their voters back home & to hold the majority.

https://www.republicanleader.senate.gov ... n-senators