Has lacrosse “bubble” started to pop??

[Wheels]

The discussion about travel is interesting. My oldest (hes 13, so he plays on a 2024 club) plays for a team based in NJ that is a good B team/low A level team. It's a good team, but what that really means is that we all know there are a lot of teams out there that are better, even in New Jersey (let alone Maryland or Long Island). He's one of the two best defense men on the team, but...playing travel quickly makes you realize that as good as you think your kid may be, there are a lot of better players out there. And he knows it, and it makes him work harder, because he loves lacrosse.

We have zero misconceptions that this will lead him to a division 1 team, let alone scholarship to play lacrosse. His number one responsibility is grades, not lacrosse as grades will get him into college after all. We invest this money in him to play travel lacrosse because it allows him to do something he really likes doing, that he has fun while doing, is getting coaching he can't get in town/rec ball. He's essentially using the travel experience to become the best player (and coachable kid) that he can be.

Nearly everyone on the team has the same view, parent and kid. Most of us on this team have been together in the travel scene for the past 4 years or so, so we know each other quite well. Our kids are good...but we all know there are better, and those kids are pretty notable. For example in the last tournament we were playing some team from Southern Maryland that was stacked with some really good players. One scored from about 8 yards out with a backhand shot that was frankly ridiculous. We all know our kids aren't like that.

So painting all travel parents and kids with this brush that we're all laboring under these misconceptions that it's hypercompetitive and only for division 1 or scholarships, or whatever, is a bit ridiculous. That may be the case when you're talking about some of the top AA teams, but that's by far not the bulk of the travel lacrosse world.

+1

I'd add that because the club scene has change the developmental curve that kids progress through, rec/town/CYO is now fundamentally different. In many towns in SE PA that have A-B-C levels in rec, A teams exclusively are comprised by kids that play on club teams, B teams probably have 12-15 kids that play club and are waiting for the next year to be the older kids on the A team, and the C team is kids who have never played the sport. At the U14 level, there are only A and B teams. Those B teams are mostly 7th graders who play for club teams. So what are kids and parents supposed to do with all of this? If your kid likes the sport and wants to play, he/she at this point needs year-round training of some kind or needs to be an elite athlete who might not even make the A team because stick skills aren't developed enough. Look at what these kids have to do to even play in their town league. If they don't get year-round development, what will their rec/town/CYO experience even be? My town caps U14 at 40 players across 2 teams (A and B), and maybe 3 or 4 of the kids on the B team don't play year round. Hell, even Pat Spencer had to play on a club team despite it not being his top sport. This happens now in every sport. The rec/town/CYO leagues are no longer the places where a multi-sport kid can develop skills at a different rate. I feel bad for parents who have to pay for club teams across multiple sports just so their kid can even play.

So I'm with Pulp here. I just want my son to be able to play through high school to get the benefits of playing a team sport. He'll never play in college unless he's playing at the club level. For him to even be able to play in the town's rec program at his age, though, he needs year-round development. So the club scene is where he goes to be one of the better players on a *meh* team that is solid but not great.

Specialization is killing all of these sports.

[DMac]

Am happy for your son's and family's experience, PE, sincerely.
I think one would be remiss, however, to not mention the money grab element in youth sports as well. I've seen this in both hockey and girl's softball. Have a gdaughter who was a pretty darn good softballer, played on a travel team in Texas. This was really my first up close and personal experience with the travel team culure. The distance traveled to play (4 hours one way) and money involved for motels, food, etc pretty much blew me away. Yes, the girls were close and had fun, but some of those girls weren't what I'd call "good" softball players. I know some of those people were just "keeping up with the Jonses" so to speak. It's not painting with a broad brush and saying that it's all bad, but it's not all good either.
The hockey experience is even worse from what I've seen. 8-9 year old kids traveling hours away, spending the week end in motels, dragging siblings along, entertaining and feeding them all. A lot of these people are in it for the wrong reasons too, and are swallowing the bait hook, line, and sinker. I see it and feel it with the hockey experience.
I don't know the answers to these questions, but does anyone ever get cut from a travel team? Have to prove they're good enough to make the team, or does the check prove their worth to the team?

[PulpExposure]

\
The hockey experience is even worse from what I've seen. 8-9 year old kids traveling hours away, spending the week end in motels, dragging siblings along, entertaining and feeding them all. A lot of these people are in it for the wrong reasons too, and are swallowing the bait hook, line, and sinker. I see it and feel it with the hockey experience.

I find hockey to be the worst, frankly. I have friends who kids do it, and they're going up to Canada (and getting their butts kicked), etc. It's a different level of cost and involvement - it's right up there with swimming in impact to the family.

With lacrosse, we are in an area where we have access to a lot of tournaments very closeby (we're right outside Philadelphia, so we have access to all those tournaments). The furthest we've really gone for a tournament is two hours - and most are within an hour. It's not quite the same. At most one overnight stay a summer, and that's more because it's kind of fun to get away once in awhile.

Plus hockey has that "you can make money from this" aspect (you can be a pro!), which we all know isn't the case with lacrosse. When there's potential pro athlete money involved, parents can get ugly. My son also plays football and used to play baseball, and I found all too many parents looked at their kids playing those sports as if they were "meal tickets".

Reality hasn't hit many people - you have a better chance of being a surgeon than a professional athlete, and there aren't a lot of surgeons out there lol.

I don't know the answers to these questions, but does anyone ever get cut from a travel team? Have to prove they're good enough to make the team, or does the check prove their worth to the team?

Yeah - and this is something we're all very mindful of when the kids tryout for a team. If it's a pure cash grab, then everyone makes the team and you have 30 kids on a travel team and no one gets any playing time. Then the parents get upset because they're paying X and the kids aren't playing (and practices are too large so they don't get that individual coaching either).

In our clubs case, the teams are capped, so yeah, they do tryouts and kids do get cut who aren't good enough or just don't make the team. The sizes are a bit larger than rec teams, but that's simply because in a day you'll play 3-4 hour long games per day in the summer heat, and the kids wear out. Most rec teams are like 18-22, but travel teams may be 25. Any larger, and the team looks like it's just taking kids who wouldn't otherwise make the cut, just for the cash.

[Wheels]

Am happy for your son's and family's experience, PE, sincerely.
I think one would be remiss, however, to not mention the money grab element in youth sports as well. I've seen this in both hockey and girl's softball. Have a gdaughter who was a pretty darn good softballer, played on a travel team in Texas. This was really my first up close and personal experience with the travel team culure. The distance traveled to play (4 hours one way) and money involved for motels, food, etc pretty much blew me away. Yes, the girls were close and had fun, but some of those girls weren't what I'd call "good" softball players. I know some of those people were just "keeping up with the Jonses" so to speak. It's not painting with a broad brush and saying that it's all bad, but it's not all good either.
The hockey experience is even worse from what I've seen. 8-9 year old kids traveling hours away, spending the week end in motels, dragging siblings along, entertaining and feeding them all. A lot of these people are in it for the wrong reasons too, and are swallowing the bait hook, line, and sinker. I see it and feel it with the hockey experience.
I don't know the answers to these questions, but does anyone ever get cut from a travel team? Have to prove they're good enough to make the team, or does the check prove their worth to the team?

DMac...I don't disagree with you at all, and it goes back to what LaxDad and others have said, too. So much of this club thing is tied up with image and wanting to, as you say, keep up with the Joneses. I had a conversation with a parent recently who is sending their kid to one of local private school lax powerhouses (one of those 5-12 grade places). The competition, of course, is intense, which is part of why, I suppose, some people specifically choose to send their kid to a place like that for a specific sport. When I mentioned how crazy that competition is for a sport where 12.6 schollies get split across 40 players in college, the parent froze. Had never heard or realized that the scholarship money was so little. Even if the sport greases the skids for admission (and that does happen...otherwise Lori Loughlin wouldn't be facing jail time), there's no free college ahead for these kids. The clubs don't educate parents on that, either, as there's no incentive for them to do so. Or they assume that if mom and pop can front thousands of $$ for the club scene, the parents can afford college for jr and they're just hoping to grease the admissions skids. This parent, though, was stunned. In the end, this parent still likes telling everyone how great jr is and that the local prep school recruited him and he'll play in college. Most people they talk to will hear "on scholarship" and assume it's a full ride. Basking in the reflected glow of your kids' accomplishments is a real thing, and there's really nothing wrong with it. Life is the great equalizer, and people learn and adapt. There's always going to be breakage along the way. That's just human nature. But the vast majority of kids come out on the other side of all of this pretty well adjusted and able to function.

[DMac]

Thanks for all the info, boys. Will say it again, am damn glad I missed all of this, just wasn't around in my day. Didn't cost much to play ball, we had plenty of fun, never traveled all that far (couple of times for hoops and baseball all star teams but that was just a little different), was plenty of pretty decent competition around, and a whole lot went on to play college ball. Oh, and we all had to try out for, and make the team too.

[palaxoff]

So how can we fix Club Lacrosse.

I know the first thought is get the money out, but that isn't going to happen,

Couple of thoughts.
1. Clubs have to have a main address and can only travel is a 60 mile radius to tournaments, 2 to 3 tournaments in summer 1 to 2 fall. ( this is still a lucrative deal for assistant college coaches and players looking for extra money but not the jackpot.)
2. Clubs can only have 2 teams at any age level. No super clubs.
3. There are no National Tournaments for any age level under 14. Those tournaments are the only ones teams can travel more then a hour to, only US Lacrosse not some entity they hire runs the tournament, Maybe similar to Little League world Series.
4. Break age levels down to 2 levels competitive and highly competitive. Set some skill criteria for this.
5. Not sure but I suspect some of these college coaches come for a pay check not a recruit end that farce.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I would set up regional summer club leagues. Two practices a week and two games on a weekend. A regional league within 1 hour radius. Then at mid and end of summer have a larger multi regional tournament. Better coaching and real competition. Home and home games except for the tournaments. Multi region could be Mass/NH/No. Ct/ Rest of NE...LI/so. CT/Hudson Valley/....so forth and so on.

[smoova]

So how can we fix Club Lacrosse.

I know the first thought is get the money out, but that isn't going to happen,

Couple of thoughts.
1. Clubs have to have a main address and can only travel is a 60 mile radius to tournaments, 2 to 3 tournaments in summer 1 to 2 fall. ( this is still a lucrative deal for assistant college coaches and players looking for extra money but not the jackpot.)
2. Clubs can only have 2 teams at any age level. No super clubs.
3. There are no National Tournaments for any age level under 14. Those tournaments are the only ones teams can travel more then a hour to, only US Lacrosse not some entity they hire runs the tournament, Maybe similar to Little League world Series.
4. Break age levels down to 2 levels competitive and highly competitive. Set some skill criteria for this.
5. Not sure but I suspect some of these college coaches come for a pay check not a recruit end that farce.

The most important "fix" is to strictly enforce birth-year divisions for all club competition. Any changes made before that one are just laying a band-aid on a sucking chest wound.

Also, any rules to limit summer travel distance will retard development/growth in the emerging hotbeds.

[HooDat]

Also, any rules to limit summer travel distance will retard development/growth in the emerging hotbeds.

not to mention it just gets really boring to see the exact same teams at every tournament you go to.

[Dip&Dunk]

So how can we fix Club Lacrosse.

I know the first thought is get the money out, but that isn't going to happen,

Couple of thoughts.
1. Clubs have to have a main address and can only travel is a 60 mile radius to tournaments, 2 to 3 tournaments in summer 1 to 2 fall. ( this is still a lucrative deal for assistant college coaches and players looking for extra money but not the jackpot.)
2. Clubs can only have 2 teams at any age level. No super clubs.
3. There are no National Tournaments for any age level under 14. Those tournaments are the only ones teams can travel more then a hour to, only US Lacrosse not some entity they hire runs the tournament, Maybe similar to Little League world Series.
4. Break age levels down to 2 levels competitive and highly competitive. Set some skill criteria for this.
5. Not sure but I suspect some of these college coaches come for a pay check not a recruit end that farce.

1. Your urban/suburban bias is showing through.
2. This will stifle development of younger players plain and simple.
3. No problem.
4. Pretty (too) subjective. And skill level in State A might not be the same in State B.
5. In your words: "I know the first thought is get the money out, but that isn't going to happen."

[OSVAlacrosse]

5. Not sure but I suspect some of these college coaches come for a pay check not a recruit end that farce.

I am not sure exactly what is meant by this. From my experience most major college coaches are not paid by clubs to attend events. The majority of top club programs are not coached by the top head coaches. The assistants that do coach often coach teams in years that are not even eligible for recruitment so I do not see coaches using clubs as a recruiting tool. Coaching a club team to get a recruit would seem narrow minded. They could attend and event and see far for players. I see far more top HS coaches coaching club teams.

The key to "fixing" club lacrosse boils down to two things in my opinion:

1. Define what it means to be "fixed."
2. Involve the club directors and convince them it is in their own best interests to do so.

US Lacrosse should make this a top priority. To answer number 2, the more players and more demand, the better for the club coaches. However, the idea that the sport will scale back and return to the days of community rec based with clubs being an added bonus are gone. Look at basketball, baseball, hockey, wrestling, soccer, and lacrosse. Youth sports is now a business. They will not change based on good will. Parents are willing to play on a team and practice far more than a 60 mile radius. To suggest that club teams will not have tournaments beyond this is just the opposite of what is happening. There is a new tournament this winter based on the mythical ranking system that is a "National Championship" for kids as young as 5th and 6th grade.

[Wheels]

The key to "fixing" club lacrosse boils down to two things in my opinion:

1. Define what it means to be "fixed."
2. Involve the club directors and convince them it is in their own best interests to do so.

US Lacrosse should make this a top priority. To answer number 2, the more players and more demand, the better for the club coaches. However, the idea that the sport will scale back and return to the days of community rec based with clubs being an added bonus are gone. Look at basketball, baseball, hockey, wrestling, soccer, and lacrosse. Youth sports is now a business. They will not change based on good will. Parents are willing to play on a team and practice far more than a 60 mile radius. To suggest that club teams will not have tournaments beyond this is just the opposite of what is happening. There is a new tournament this winter based on the mythical ranking system that is a "National Championship" for kids as young as 5th and 6th grade.

As if right on cue, IL released "club rankings" for years 2020-2022.

[OSVAlacrosse]

Yes and the ratings are based on the teams that played in the IL events. The player "ratings" are also based on the same thing.

[youthathletics]

Gotta keep that money pipeline flowing.

[palaxoff]

I should have broken down my thoughts a little better by saying I was addressing Pre High school clubs, High School teams are a different animal.. Here are my reasons. The huge drop in participation after age 14, the high burn out level before high school, churning out so many potential good players in the name of development. I think we can all agree that most of the stars at the youth level were not competitive at high school or college level due to maturity and other factors like older siblings. Yes I know there are exceptions.

Couple of thoughts.
1. Clubs have to have a main address and can only travel is a 60 mile radius to tournaments, 2 to 3 tournaments in summer 1 to 2 fall. ( this is still a lucrative deal for assistant college coaches and players looking for extra money but not the jackpot.) You can extend the range but these tournament should only be 1 day. There aren't any college coaches going to these to recruit. Give the kids time to be kids, save the rest of the family time and money

2. Clubs can only have 2 teams at any age level. No super clubs. Working these tournaments I seen several teams from the same club in an age bracket which appear to just be feeder programs for the top team not a lot of concern for weaker players.

3. There are no National Tournaments for any age level under 14. Those tournaments are the only ones teams can travel more then a hour to, only US Lacrosse not some entity they hire runs the tournament, Maybe similar to Little League world Series. IL is the biggest offender and I get it, they need to keep readers and help their advertisers with their tournament. But is it complete mythical BS. This is where US Lacrosse should be making an effort, I am sure that along with my membership fees there are a lot of other member who agree they should be more involved.

4. Break age levels down to 2 levels competitive and highly competitive. Set some skill criteria for this. I have seen this work in girls volleyball, they have a legitimate national championship program run by US Volleyball. I believe they call it Champion and competitive. there is a lot more parity and a lot less stress from the players and parents at the competitive level they are just having fun and learning.

5. Not sure but I suspect some of these college coaches come for a pay check not a recruit end that farce. The only reason a college coach should be at a sub high school tournament to to watch his child or coach a team.

[Dip&Dunk]

Here are my thoughts/concerns about club teams but first my background.

I live in an area that has about 40 years of youth lacrosse experience. We are just getting the first parents that grew up in the area playing lacrosse.

Every HS has lacrosse but only one public and one private HS school seem to produce players that make it to D1. The private school is better and has a model of softly recruiting (poaching?) the best public school players. Our highest HS player was IL #1 rated player for a year group. There are 5 D1 recruits and ~8 DIII recruits for this year between the two schools.

In the last four years I only saw one lax player slip through the cracks unrecruited. He was (is) an amazing athlete that played 3 sports (football, b-ball, lax) and worked in the summer. Three year lax starter as LSM, 6’1’’ 215’ish now playing club lax at a D2.
I have a son playing D1. I have another son that won a lax state championship but never played lax again at any level.

Problem: Our local clubs have been a case study in failure for years. It seems year after year, decade after decade we are either beating close by clubs 18-2 or losing to hot bed teams 2-18.

Observations:
(1) Goalies can never make that growth into the highest level without seeing the highest-level shots on a consistent and repeated basis.
(2) Teamwork can never make that growth into the highest level without having ALL high level players on the team and on the field together.
(3) Athleticism is not coached. It can be developed on any team, anywhere.
(4) In our area, the best players all played for clubs first in area then later out of area. The clubs improved their play, not the HS's.
(5) There needs to be a fundamental basis established first for any player to advance to the high or highest level. The 10,000 hour theory has been debunked but there is no substitute for time with the lax stick in your hand. Practice field, back yard, etc.
(6) At a certain point, the recruiting coaches find your child, you don’t find them. The problem is getting to that point and knowing you are at that point.
(7) No D1 recruit in our area played any other sport other than lax in HS.
(8) Two families, in their words, over-exposed their kids meaning they went to too many tournies/showcases/BS evaluation camps.
(9) Lax costs were at least $3k-$4k per child per year through HS. This includes gear, travel, memberships, food, room, t-shirts, etc. Usually only one parent traveled (we have other kids, a dog etc).

Concerns:
(1) You can let the costs outweigh the benefits very easily. Eventually you have to say no even when the child says yes (Hell, you created the monster: what did you expect: that he doesn’t not want to go to the IL U19 world tryouts even after he finally got that D1 offer?)
(2) Despite all the attempts to the contrary, lax is still over sold to parents.
(3) The multi sport athlete is disappearing. Whether due to concussions, cost or skill, I don’t know but it is going away. Also consider this: The club now offers a way to NOT play that other sport yet still play a sport year around.
(4) The desire for the recruit to be a multi-sport athlete is hog wash.
(5) Even with the recruiting changes, the clubs still over sell their product. Not sure what has changed from the D1 coaches perspective.
(6) Unless you are in a hot bed area, you gotta travel to get better. And if you gotta travel, you gotta be on a club and if you’re on a club that travels its gonna be expensive. But see #1.

[OSVAlacrosse]

" I think we can all agree that most of the stars at the youth level were not competitive at high school or college level due to maturity and other factors like older siblings. Yes I know there are exceptions. "

I have found the opposite of this. For the most part, the kids that were good in youth ended up being the ones that went on to play in college. The ones that regressed were the exception.

"(7) No D1 recruit in our area played any other sport other than lax in HS."

to D&D what area do you live? General area? This has not been the case from my experience. I live in Northern Virginia and know this is not the case. Many top lacrosse players do play more lacrosse than other sports but most also play at least one other sport at the HS level.

[Typical Lax Dad]

" I think we can all agree that most of the stars at the youth level were not competitive at high school or college level due to maturity and other factors like older siblings. Yes I know there are exceptions. "

I have found the opposite of this. For the most part, the kids that were good in youth ended up being the ones that went on to play in college. The ones that regressed were the exception.

"(7) No D1 recruit in our area played any other sport other than lax in HS."

to D&D what area do you live? General area? This has not been the case from my experience. I live in Northern Virginia and know this is not the case. Many top lacrosse players do play more lacrosse than other sports but most also play at least one other sport at the HS level.

I saw an old picture of my son’s u13 lacrosse team which was 6th and 7th graders. From that team of 22, 4 went on to be 4 year D1 players in college with 1 first team and 1 3rd team AA. All 4 played as freshmen and beyond. 3 played D3 and 2 were all conference players. Most played in HS and then gave it up. The 2 AA’s were the two most talented. The other 2 developed in HS. One of the 2 AA’s was playing 2 years up. The only player that regressed was the kid that hit puberty first. Big at 13 and was about the same size when he went to college. They players that worked at it had the best outcomes. Club ball contributed little. But it’s a hot bed area. Town programs get pretty good coaching on the way up.

[Dip&Dunk]

" I think we can all agree that most of the stars at the youth level were not competitive at high school or college level due to maturity and other factors like older siblings. Yes I know there are exceptions. "

I have found the opposite of this. For the most part, the kids that were good in youth ended up being the ones that went on to play in college. The ones that regressed were the exception.

"(7) No D1 recruit in our area played any other sport other than lax in HS."

to D&D what area do you live? General area? This has not been the case from my experience. I live in Northern Virginia and know this is not the case. Many top lacrosse players do play more lacrosse than other sports but most also play at least one other sport at the HS level.

Central Virginia

[PulpExposure]

Club ball contributed little. But it’s a hot bed area. Town programs get pretty good coaching on the way up.

See it's the opposite for where I am in South NJ. It's not far from a hotbed area (right outside Philly), but man the coaching at the club level is mostly dads, many who didn't even play lacrosse as kids. And even the public high school coaches are a mixed bag - some are great, but many of them are just the football coach who is coaching lacrosse in the spring (and you can imagine what that end product looks like...).

So you play travel because that's where you get coached by people who are lacrosse coaches. Coaching helps develop the kids.

There's a point where the dad coaching gets ridiculous - yeah fundamentals are super important, but there's only so much you can get from watching Youtube or other coaches. After a kids been playing lacrosse for awhile, they need tips and hints from someone who's been there before and more advanced coaching than just fundamentals.

For example, at where my son is, the past two years he has learnt very little from the amateur coaches in the town rec experience. They're too busy trying to coach basic fundamentals to the other kids (like throwing and catching, let alone use of an offhand). He does get something out of it, of course - he gets reps, gets live game experience, and gets to play with his friends. And he can apply what he's learned in the summer and really push it on the rec scene. But his real improvement comes in the summer - better coaching, better competition, etc.

I'd imagine in a real hotbed area, where you have actual dedicated lacrosse coaches...and coaches who played at some point, it's a completely different story as you mention above.