The Nation's Financial Condition

[Andersen]

TLD wrote:

Have you seen the new documentary produced by Obama’s production company on Netflix? I plan on watching it. That plant is a good example of what has happened in this country.

My wife watched "American Factory" and said it was terrific. I plan to watch it this weekend.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/goingout ... ep6jPQgzng

[tech37]

“What do you call two farmers in a basement?” Mr. Perdue asked near the end of a testy hourlong town-hall-style event. “A whine cellar.”

Or welfare kings

Have you ever had a conversation with a dairy farmer? There is the life of Riley for you. 16 hour days, 24/7/365 there ain't no vacation or days off there. Those girls gotta be milked every damn day. So why are you hating on the farmers? If you are a dairy farmer the gubmint decides how much you can get for your milk. Maybe all those farmers should just say eff it and wait for the Dems to give them their 1000 dollars a month for sitting on their arse and doing nothing. I just have to laugh at you condescending lily white candy arse FLP folks who hate the folks working their arse off every day and struggling to make ends meet but you all will have a case of premature ejaculation falling in love with giving folks 1000 a month just because they are entitled to it. Some of you folks prove this simple fact to me here every dog gone day... FLP extremism clearly is a mental disorder...

Ha, your rant should be aimed at o d not me!

TRUMP'S SECRETARY OF AGRICULTURE TELLS JOKE ABOUT WHINING FARMERS

https://www.newsweek.com/agriculture-se ... ke-1453914

But I expect now that you know it is from your heros guy; you will agree with him fully!

DEPLORABLE

This has nothing to do with Trump NUMBNUTS.

So you are now the one calling farmers stupid?

Iowa corn farmers to Trump: The government put us in 'one hell of a bad situation'

https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... l-of-a-bad

I promised MD I would refrain from using this term but are you freaking brain damaged or what? I am talking about DECADES of hardships our nations farmers have been dealing with. If you would pull your head out of your arse you might welcome the smell of the fresh air. You remind me of why Archie Bunker called his son in law meathead... dead from the neck up...

+

[Typical Lax Dad]

TLD wrote:

Have you seen the new documentary produced by Obama’s production company on Netflix? I plan on watching it. That plant is a good example of what has happened in this country.

My wife watched "American Factory" and said it was terrific. I plan to watch it this weekend.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/goingout ... ep6jPQgzng

Wife was watching it when I walked in.... crazy stat... by 2030, 375 million people will be displaced by machines.... I worked at a GM plant for two summers in Dayton. Was a summer intern. The war on unions has led to wage stagnation and job loss as companies have made more and more money. The anti-union lobby has done a great job brainwashing the Americans. Companies were profitable and people earned a good wage and a good standard of living. Now companies are more profitable and people make less over the past 30 years.

[old salt]

TLD wrote:

Have you seen the new documentary produced by Obama’s production company on Netflix? I plan on watching it. That plant is a good example of what has happened in this country.

My wife watched "American Factory" and said it was terrific. I plan to watch it this weekend.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/goingout ... ep6jPQgzng

Wife was watching it when I walked in.... crazy stat... by 2030, 375 million people will be displaced by machines.... I worked at a GM plant for two summers in Dayton. Was a summer intern. The war on unions has led to wage stagnation and job loss as companies have made more and more money. The anti-union lobby has done a great job brainwashing the Americans. Companies were profitable and people earned a good wage and a good standard of living. Now companies are more profitable and people make less over the past 30 years.

Do you feel that US auto workers at Toyota, Nissan, Honda, BMW & Mercedes plants in the US are fairly compensated ?

[Farfromgeneva]

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/e ... 0431033594

[Typical Lax Dad]

TLD wrote:

Have you seen the new documentary produced by Obama’s production company on Netflix? I plan on watching it. That plant is a good example of what has happened in this country.

My wife watched "American Factory" and said it was terrific. I plan to watch it this weekend.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/goingout ... ep6jPQgzng

Wife was watching it when I walked in.... crazy stat... by 2030, 375 million people will be displaced by machines.... I worked at a GM plant for two summers in Dayton. Was a summer intern. The war on unions has led to wage stagnation and job loss as companies have made more and more money. The anti-union lobby has done a great job brainwashing the Americans. Companies were profitable and people earned a good wage and a good standard of living. Now companies are more profitable and people make less over the past 30 years.

Do you feel that US auto workers at Toyota, Nissan, Honda, BMW & Mercedes plants in the US are fairly compensated ?

Have not followed it. It’s a different time with a different standard of living. A hard working guy in a factory could buy a home, put kids through college without them being saddled with debt and retire with a pension and full benefits. Those days left in the 80’s and are not coming back. By the time the Great Recession rolled around, it wiped folks out but the little bites had been taken out for years. Like a gold fish in a tank with a predator that takes little nips. The poor fish doesn’t realize he is being eaten. That’s the American worker.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... r-decades/

Saw this example:

"Sacking groceries in a union store in 1978 I made $8.10 per hour and I was 17 years old. A new Pontiac Ventura cost around $3100 and a semester at the State University was $300 or so, not including books. I could pay for a semester of school by working a week. Gasoline was $0.58 per gallon and nobody was starving from the price of food.

Now a sacker makes about $8.50 per hour and a new Pontiac Mid-Sized Sedan is around $21,000. A semester at State is around $300...per credit hour. These people can pay for a semester of school by working around 10.5 weeks. The cost of gasoline is $3.00/gallon and food banks are running out of product.

I am not an economist, but I do know that people making less than $10 an hour don't buy new cars, airline tickets, houses, clothing made in the USA, shoes made in the USA, or anything not made of plastic that comes from the far east."

workers today are more productive, create more value and are paid effectively less than they were 30 years ago. That is a hell of a deal.... my answer, invest in infrastructure and new energy technology to create industry and more jobs. Coal mines aren't the answer. A revolution is coming. 375 million jobs displaced in 2030. Income inequality could be the "national emergency". Not Hector that walked from Guatemala.

[Typical Lax Dad]

For anyone interested. Some plain talk... people in this country have been hoodwinked.

https://bud-meyers.blogspot.com/2012/04 ... orrow.html

People actually believe the workers are the problem. Lazy American factory workers...particularly in the cities..... easy pickings for negative campaigns. Look at how well they are doing and they don't work hard and we can't fire them....

[ardilla secreta]

TLD: “Now a sacker makes about $8.50 per hour and a new Pontiac Mid-Sized Sedan is around $21,000. A semester at State is around $300...per credit hour. These people can pay for a semester of school by working around 10.5 weeks. The cost of gasoline is $3.00/gallon and food banks are running out of product.”

Hate to add to the sadness of this story but the last Pontiac rolled off the assembly line in 2010. The roar of a ‘65 GTO is just a memory.

[MDlaxfan76]

I asked, you answered and I questioned the first step in your solution. To my knowledge after 16 years of Bush and Obama administrations neither administration did dicky doo to address the trade imbalance with the chicoms. Trump with all of his faults, calls out the chicoms and proposes his own solution

Really? What's his solution?

Both Bush and Obama tried to work at it. And the reason Trump is championing a Trade War is the same reason Old Salt, Tech, and others here are: they don't care about the financial damage because it's not their money that's getting affected.

Not giving a *hit how decisions affect others makes all kinds of leadership decisions awfully easy.

The US and its allies can't agree on what time the sun will come up. How can we expect them to find common ground on how to deal with the chicoms?

Simple. Money. And I laid out how to handle this over dozen times now. None of you are listening, and are too busy patting Trump on the back for starting a pointless Trade War to notice.

This Trade War is a massive opportunity to find new buyers and seller for American business. And because FoxNation is so busy congratulating Trump to pay attention to this opportunity----it's getting lost. So Trump and our government are literally sitting on their *sses, waiting for China to make a move....instead of doing the smart thing, and making moves ourselves to help American business.

You want to applaud Trump for doing nothing, and waiting for China to capitulate, go right ahead. This is not how business is done. Guys like me can't inherit his money from Daddy to get ahead. Perot would have been ALL OVER this once in a lifetime opportunity.

I will have to admit to you that I don't get the nuts and bolts about how this trade issue with the Chicoms works. I do know the chicoms ship us enormous amounts of goods at almost no cost to them. The US sends to China a tiny fraction of goods just to create the impression they are doing something. I am not trying to pat Trump on the back. I understand what he is trying to do but his methodology is all screwed up IMO. I also understand your position that the US needs to get its allies on board with us... which we are not doing. I am sick and tired of Trump saying something different about the chicoms every damn day. One day Xi is a great guy that he can work with. The next day he is being irrational and stubborn. If you want to do something different... have a plan, tell your allies what the plan is and how it will work. What we are doing now is playing a game of economic chicken trying to find out what side will flinch first.

News flash... this morning the talking heads are saying the chicoms want to start negotiating again. If there is a deal out there to be made, both countries should work non stop to get it done. Failing that, stop playing stupid games and end the tariff war and go back to doing what has been done for so long... nothing much. I have always been an advocate for being pro active and doing something to deal with a problem. This is beginning to look like a case where doing nothing is starting to make more sense.

Pretty good summary of what's wrong with Trump's actions re China.

But I'm puzzled by these two sentences:

"I do know the chicoms ship us enormous amounts of goods at almost no cost to them. The US sends to China a tiny fraction of goods just to create the impression they are doing something."

By "cost to them" do you mean that the Chinese government should be paying us something for the opportunity to ship them goods? Or that the goods don't cost the Chinese anything to make? The latter is not accurate, the former would be quite strange.

We buy things from the Chinese because, in some cases, they are the best, more efficient, producer of those products worldwide. They buy some products from us where we are the most efficient, best producer worldwide. Their businesses make a profit, their people get paid. Our businesses make a profit, our people get paid. Their cost of labor is lower (as is their standard of living) so in labor-intensive products they have an advantage, however I wouldn't trade our standard of living for their cost advantage, would you?

There are indeed issues in our trade relations that deserved to be addressed, proactively, as well as long term strategic issues around how the world will be shaped and governed 100 years from now and so on. These are not easy or simple issues, nor do they lend themselves to press announcements and campaign promises. But doing business with the Chinese has and will be the best approach to creating peaceful coexistence with them.

By "cost to them" do you mean that the Chinese government should be paying us something for the opportunity to ship them goods? Or that the goods don't cost the Chinese anything to make? The latter is not accurate, the former would be quite strange.

Funny you should bring that up. I just priced out a new 3/8 drive Snap On socket set... state of the art made in America and guaranteed for life. The set with extensions and adapters was just over 400 dollars. I could buy a cheaper Chinese made set somewhat comparable in size and accessories for under 30 bucks. Since I am not a professional mechanic I chose a lesser SK set. Explain to me Mr smarty pants how my statement that the chicoms can build stuff cheaper... way way cheaper is innacurate. I suggest you meander on down to your local Harbor Freight store and check out where all these tools are made. I forgot... you are a blue blood republican with hands as soft as veal. What do you know about hand tools and the quality put in to them? The chicoms build chit tools and sell them over here with little cost to them to bring their chit tools into America where people who mostly don't understand the difference between chit tools and cheap dump and quality made tools will keep throwing good money after bad. I have had a set of Channel Lock pliers and wrenches I inherited from my father and are still going strong and work like the day they were purchased.

I may not understand the nuts and bolts of how the US of A does trade with the chicoms. I do know quality workmanship and quality tools. I have been working with them my entire life. The chit that the chicoms sell in the USA as tools is not worth the money people hand over at the cash register. If you understood the difference you would not have made such an asinine statement. I guess in your world the chicoms are selling us the best products they can make. The chicom chit is the reason I spend several sundays a year browsing the flea markets looking for rusty gold tools that need some TLC to bring back to life. A couple of months ago I bought an 8 inch and 10 inch set of Crescent wrench pliers made back in the day in Jamestown NY. I paid 5 bucks for them. I took them down to the shop, took them apart, wire wheeled them and hit them with 3 and 1 oil. They are like brand new tools I will hand over to my kids some day. I try and buy American made any time I can and wherever I can. That is the best single thing I can do to support American made products. It is getting harder and harder to do. Why is that? Easy for the chicoms to build cheap dump and sell it over here because it doesn't cost dicky doo to make... cheap dump.

well, cradle, that's why I asked what you meant.
Apparently you mean that the Chinese can make goods at a lower cost than comparable goods made in America, despite shipping costs etc.
But hey, don't want them, don't buy them!

Yes, the Chinese can and do make stuff less expensively than we do. Especially stuff with a high labor component. They're also getting very good at automation as well, so they are moving up the food chain in terms of quality products. But then, so are we.

Making products at a lower cost is not 'dumping', it's capitalism. Now, there IS such a thing as "dumping" and it's illegal in international trade, and I'm all for international enforcement, but 99.9+% of all Chinese trade is not 'dumped'. It's made less expensively.

Rather than take offense at your 'hands as soft a veal' crack, let me just suggest that your story is what is 'asinine,' not me.

Why whine about a $30 set of tools being available to those who wish to buy them versus the $400 set (which you also apparently didn't buy)?
Those who value the absolute highest quality tools are totally free to buy the $400 set (or maybe the $500 German-made set), those who don't can buy the lower cost ones that don't come with the lifetime guarantee. Or you can go to the flea market and take your chances there.

BTW, no one forces the US company to make tools that they need to sell at $400 in order to make a profit. That's a choice. It's a value proposition on which they attempt to compete rather than price. They will undoubtedly, however, sell far fewer than the lower priced tools. Heck, I can replace the $400 tools a dozen times and still break even. And that's not including the time value of money. On the other hand, if I absolutely had to trust that the tools would be available and working with never any downtime, maybe the $400 set makes sense. Up to me to weigh those tradeoffs, right? Or maybe I just like the way the logo looks on the $400 set, maybe I want to brag to my buddies at the corner bar how I have those fancy schmantzy tools in my garage, just in case...After all they're "Made in America" and my buddies will like that I took a stand.

Point is it's my and your choice what to buy.

It cracks me up that those who whine about "socialism" and 'government regulation' and 'government control' at every turn are so happy to trash capitalism, yet will personally also buy the least expensive (comparable) goods whenever offered.

If you want to "Buy American", terrific. But let's see how you really do when we look at all your purchases...where were those avocados grown, the bell peppers? Is there any cell phone without foreign parts? How about a new sofa? Pair of shoes? Heck that new trailer hitch behind your truck, which has 30% parts made overseas.

Is this actually a problem?
Or would you prefer to pay 30-50% more for everything you buy?

The next time you get your car serviced look in the bays and observe what tool boxes you see. You will find 3 predominate name brands... Snap On, Mac and Matco. They are freaking expensive and American made and the reason professional mechanics use them is because they last and the wrench you are using wont break in half while you are trying to tighten or loosen a bolt. There is a good reason to pay top dollar for the best tools. Because they will not fail when you need them. You make a good point about how difficult it is to buy American. Very often you will find a dumb arse label that says made in the USA out of global components. So for the company to make that widget they have to import parts from all over the globe to build it. That's makes perfectly good sense to me. It is what it is when you purchase a good or service. I have no problem paying for the best and buying a superior product. To do so you have to be an educated consumer and you have to look hard to not buy cheap stuff that won't last. Caveat emptor as my limited knowledge of Latin goes.

I agree with this, cradle, albeit with the caveat that sometimes a foreign-made product may well be superior to the American-made product. That is true, as is that sometimes, indeed often, products produced overseas may provide a better value vs cost.

Competition is fundamentally good; at least that's true if you believe in capitalism.

[MDlaxfan76]

“What do you call two farmers in a basement?” Mr. Perdue asked near the end of a testy hourlong town-hall-style event. “A whine cellar.”

Or welfare kings

Have you ever had a conversation with a dairy farmer? There is the life of Riley for you. 16 hour days, 24/7/365 there ain't no vacation or days off there. Those girls gotta be milked every damn day. So why are you hating on the farmers? If you are a dairy farmer the gubmint decides how much you can get for your milk. Maybe all those farmers should just say eff it and wait for the Dems to give them their 1000 dollars a month for sitting on their arse and doing nothing. I just have to laugh at you condescending lily white candy arse FLP folks who hate the folks working their arse off every day and struggling to make ends meet but you all will have a case of premature ejaculation falling in love with giving folks 1000 a month just because they are entitled to it. Some of you folks prove this simple fact to me here every dog gone day... FLP extremism clearly is a mental disorder...

Ha, your rant should be aimed at o d not me!

TRUMP'S SECRETARY OF AGRICULTURE TELLS JOKE ABOUT WHINING FARMERS

https://www.newsweek.com/agriculture-se ... ke-1453914

But I expect now that you know it is from your heros guy; you will agree with him fully!

DEPLORABLE

This has nothing to do with Trump NUMBNUTS.

So you are now the one calling farmers stupid?

Iowa corn farmers to Trump: The government put us in 'one hell of a bad situation'

https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... l-of-a-bad

I promised MD I would refrain from using this term but are you freaking brain damaged or what? I am talking about DECADES of hardships our nations farmers have been dealing with. If you would pull your head out of your arse you might welcome the smell of the fresh air. You remind me of why Archie Bunker called his son in law meathead... dead from the neck up...

+

cradle,
I'd also suggest not calling a fellow poster "NUMBNUTS". But yeah, "brain damaged" is not only a personal attack, but as someone who has a family member for whom that is actually an accurate phrase, it's immensely offensive when used this way. She's a great person.

Bottomline, seems to me that we can discuss disagreements without all the offensive personal attacks.

On the actual subject matter, I happen to know quite a lot of farmers. And I spent some time as a kid working on a dairy farm.
Farmers don't want to need hand-outs, just as folks in the inner city or in coal country don't want to need a handout.

But, yeah, this has everything to do with Trump's misbegotten trade war.
And the hypocrisy of those who claim to hate 'welfare' and 'socialism'.

But let's not kid ourselves that the ag handouts are getting through to the smaller family farmers in proportion to the damage. Most of the $ are going to big ag. Big time 'corporate welfare'.

[HooDat]

It had nothing to do with the workers, from my own experience it had more to do with the leadership of various unions who got their share and then slithered off into the dark of night when there was no money left for them.

yep - they got co-opted when they got into politics.

This is the documentary that I saw on Frontline.



Corporate America sold these people down the river.......after the Unions were crushed, this is what was left in its wake.... Guess who brought some jobs back for these people...... Chinese. SMH

TLD - thanks for the recommendation, but I truly don't know if I can watch it. It will piss me off or break my heart or both.....

The one thing that was in-sustainable were the pensions. But again, that was just an executive borrowing from future executives and future workers to make himself look better.... Just like the government does today - under-pay people on a current basis but over-pay them after they retire to kick the can down the road ... let it be the next person's problem ~ they got theirs.....

[Typical Lax Dad]

It had nothing to do with the workers, from my own experience it had more to do with the leadership of various unions who got their share and then slithered off into the dark of night when there was no money left for them.

yep - they got co-opted when they got into politics.

This is the documentary that I saw on Frontline.



Corporate America sold these people down the river.......after the Unions were crushed, this is what was left in its wake.... Guess who brought some jobs back for these people...... Chinese. SMH

TLD - thanks for the recommendation, but I truly don't know if I can watch it. It will tick me off or break my heart or both.....

The one thing that was in-sustainable were the pensions. But again, that was just an executive borrowing from future executives and future workers to make himself look better.... Just like the government does today - under-pay people on a current basis but over-pay them after they retire to kick the can down the road ... let it be the next person's problem ~ they got theirs.....

It will make you angry. I watched half of the documentary last night that the Obama production company put out. Companies fight tooth and nail against unions for a reason.... That documentary should make your blood boil......

[youthathletics]

It had nothing to do with the workers, from my own experience it had more to do with the leadership of various unions who got their share and then slithered off into the dark of night when there was no money left for them.

yep - they got co-opted when they got into politics.

This is the documentary that I saw on Frontline.



Corporate America sold these people down the river.......after the Unions were crushed, this is what was left in its wake.... Guess who brought some jobs back for these people...... Chinese. SMH

TLD - thanks for the recommendation, but I truly don't know if I can watch it. It will tick me off or break my heart or both.....

The one thing that was in-sustainable were the pensions. But again, that was just an executive borrowing from future executives and future workers to make himself look better.... Just like the government does today - under-pay people on a current basis but over-pay them after they retire to kick the can down the road ... let it be the next person's problem ~ they got theirs.....

It will make you angry. I watched have of the documentary last night that the Obama production company put out. Companies fight tooth and nail against unions for a reason.... That documentary should make your blood boil......

I recall when Clinton was in office and I worked in the LIUNA Headquarters at 901 I St, a block from the WH and adjacent to AFL-CIO HQ. A time when LIUNA president was Arthur Coia, who at the time was being investigated for mob connections. LIUNA then did the ole bait and switch and hired ex FBI top guy Gow, to shake out the inside of LIUNA.

Those Union Headquarters can spend some money (union dues) it just flows thru the doors like the air we breath. I thought the gov't wasted....yea right. Labor Unions are like like lttle mini gov'ts, only difference, if you don't pay your dues(taxes) you are axed. On a positive note, I am a believer in unions, especially when it comes to training, safety, and fair wages.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.businessinsider.com/bloombe ... erm=mobile

[CU88]

o d helping out US farmers, and all they do is complain and moan!

'Your EPA went too far': Farmers hit hard by Trump EPA's new ethanol rules are fuming.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politi ... a-n1048011

whine cellar

[MDlaxfan76]

https://www.businessinsider.com/bloombe ... erm=mobile

It's indeed the issue of 'right to work' states.
And of competition in a global market in which labor practices are largely unregulated, with little transparency, with consumers choosing the lowest price regardless of labor practices and, thus, capital decisions.

It's a failing of unregulated capitalism.

It's why international regulation, just as we have OSHA inter-state regulation, is probably inevitable in the long run.

[a fan]

Odd, we've been hearing how super awesome deregulation is under Trump.

The board Republicans don't know up from down anymore. Adrift at sea, unable to tell their leaders what they want them to do.....

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.businessinsider.com/bloombe ... erm=mobile

It's indeed the issue of 'right to work' states.
And of competition in a global market in which labor practices are largely unregulated, with little transparency, with consumers choosing the lowest price regardless of labor practices and, thus, capital decisions.

It's a failing of unregulated capitalism.

It's why international regulation, just as we have OSHA inter-state regulation, is probably inevitable in the long run.

That American Worker documentary on Netflix was excellent. I spent time in that plant many moons ago. All I know is this, the American worker has not participated in the upside.

[CU88]

I am losing track of who is to blame for the sluggish US Economy!

Trump blames companies impacted by his trade war.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/ ... ar-1479012

Christ, the damn Chinese are paying the tariff's!

[Farfromgeneva]

It had nothing to do with the workers, from my own experience it had more to do with the leadership of various unions who got their share and then slithered off into the dark of night when there was no money left for them.

yep - they got co-opted when they got into politics.

This is the documentary that I saw on Frontline.



Corporate America sold these people down the river.......after the Unions were crushed, this is what was left in its wake.... Guess who brought some jobs back for these people...... Chinese. SMH

TLD - thanks for the recommendation, but I truly don't know if I can watch it. It will tick me off or break my heart or both.....

The one thing that was in-sustainable were the pensions. But again, that was just an executive borrowing from future executives and future workers to make himself look better.... Just like the government does today - under-pay people on a current basis but over-pay them after they retire to kick the can down the road ... let it be the next person's problem ~ they got theirs.....

It will make you angry. I watched have of the documentary last night that the Obama production company put out. Companies fight tooth and nail against unions for a reason.... That documentary should make your blood boil......

I recall when Clinton was in office and I worked in the LIUNA Headquarters at 901 I St, a block from the WH and adjacent to AFL-CIO HQ. A time when LIUNA president was Arthur Coia, who at the time was being investigated for mob connections. LIUNA then did the ole bait and switch and hired ex FBI top guy Gow, to shake out the inside of LIUNA.

Those Union Headquarters can spend some money (union dues) it just flows thru the doors like the air we breath. I thought the gov't wasted....yea right. Labor Unions are like like lttle mini gov'ts, only difference, if you don't pay your dues(taxes) you are axed. On a positive note, I am a believer in unions, especially when it comes to training, safety, and fair wages.

Institutional economic theory, in effect, argues that individual actions create institutions which then act in their own/leadership of said institution’s best interest.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institu ... omy#Actors