The Nation's Financial Condition

[MDlaxfan76]

I asked, you answered and I questioned the first step in your solution. To my knowledge after 16 years of Bush and Obama administrations neither administration did dicky doo to address the trade imbalance with the chicoms. Trump with all of his faults, calls out the chicoms and proposes his own solution

Really? What's his solution?

Both Bush and Obama tried to work at it. And the reason Trump is championing a Trade War is the same reason Old Salt, Tech, and others here are: they don't care about the financial damage because it's not their money that's getting affected.

Not giving a *hit how decisions affect others makes all kinds of leadership decisions awfully easy.

The US and its allies can't agree on what time the sun will come up. How can we expect them to find common ground on how to deal with the chicoms?

Simple. Money. And I laid out how to handle this over dozen times now. None of you are listening, and are too busy patting Trump on the back for starting a pointless Trade War to notice.

This Trade War is a massive opportunity to find new buyers and seller for American business. And because FoxNation is so busy congratulating Trump to pay attention to this opportunity----it's getting lost. So Trump and our government are literally sitting on their *sses, waiting for China to make a move....instead of doing the smart thing, and making moves ourselves to help American business.

You want to applaud Trump for doing nothing, and waiting for China to capitulate, go right ahead. This is not how business is done. Guys like me can't inherit his money from Daddy to get ahead. Perot would have been ALL OVER this once in a lifetime opportunity.

I will have to admit to you that I don't get the nuts and bolts about how this trade issue with the Chicoms works. I do know the chicoms ship us enormous amounts of goods at almost no cost to them. The US sends to China a tiny fraction of goods just to create the impression they are doing something. I am not trying to pat Trump on the back. I understand what he is trying to do but his methodology is all screwed up IMO. I also understand your position that the US needs to get its allies on board with us... which we are not doing. I am sick and tired of Trump saying something different about the chicoms every damn day. One day Xi is a great guy that he can work with. The next day he is being irrational and stubborn. If you want to do something different... have a plan, tell your allies what the plan is and how it will work. What we are doing now is playing a game of economic chicken trying to find out what side will flinch first.

News flash... this morning the talking heads are saying the chicoms want to start negotiating again. If there is a deal out there to be made, both countries should work non stop to get it done. Failing that, stop playing stupid games and end the tariff war and go back to doing what has been done for so long... nothing much. I have always been an advocate for being pro active and doing something to deal with a problem. This is beginning to look like a case where doing nothing is starting to make more sense.

Pretty good summary of what's wrong with Trump's actions re China.

But I'm puzzled by these two sentences:

"I do know the chicoms ship us enormous amounts of goods at almost no cost to them. The US sends to China a tiny fraction of goods just to create the impression they are doing something."

By "cost to them" do you mean that the Chinese government should be paying us something for the opportunity to ship them goods? Or that the goods don't cost the Chinese anything to make? The latter is not accurate, the former would be quite strange.

We buy things from the Chinese because, in some cases, they are the best, more efficient, producer of those products worldwide. They buy some products from us where we are the most efficient, best producer worldwide. Their businesses make a profit, their people get paid. Our businesses make a profit, our people get paid. Their cost of labor is lower (as is their standard of living) so in labor-intensive products they have an advantage, however I wouldn't trade our standard of living for their cost advantage, would you?

There are indeed issues in our trade relations that deserved to be addressed, proactively, as well as long term strategic issues around how the world will be shaped and governed 100 years from now and so on. These are not easy or simple issues, nor do they lend themselves to press announcements and campaign promises. But doing business with the Chinese has and will be the best approach to creating peaceful coexistence with them.

[MDlaxfan76]

US Trade deficit with China (products only)

They ship us $539B; we ship them $120B (not exactly a tiny fraction.
This does not include services, our strongest competitive advantage.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q ... 7831793296

[Trinity]

Badgered by farmers fed up with Trump's trade war, Agriculture Sec'y Sonny Perdue made a joke. "What do you call two farmers in a basement?" Perdue asked. "A whine cellar."

Boos ricocheted around the room, NYT says.

[jhu72]

Badgered by farmers fed up with Trump's trade war, Agriculture Sec'y Sonny Perdue made a joke. "What do you call two farmers in a basement?" Perdue asked. "A whine cellar."

Boos ricocheted around the room, NYT says.

Was just reading the same article. Looks like President SFB is finally really poisoning himself with farmers. How smart can they be? Sure hope owning liberal fools is worth it.

[Trinity]

He thinks they’re dumb.

[jhu72]

He thinks they’re dumb.

They voted for him. Guess there's the proof.

[cradleandshoot]

I asked, you answered and I questioned the first step in your solution. To my knowledge after 16 years of Bush and Obama administrations neither administration did dicky doo to address the trade imbalance with the chicoms. Trump with all of his faults, calls out the chicoms and proposes his own solution

Really? What's his solution?

Both Bush and Obama tried to work at it. And the reason Trump is championing a Trade War is the same reason Old Salt, Tech, and others here are: they don't care about the financial damage because it's not their money that's getting affected.

Not giving a *hit how decisions affect others makes all kinds of leadership decisions awfully easy.

The US and its allies can't agree on what time the sun will come up. How can we expect them to find common ground on how to deal with the chicoms?

Simple. Money. And I laid out how to handle this over dozen times now. None of you are listening, and are too busy patting Trump on the back for starting a pointless Trade War to notice.

This Trade War is a massive opportunity to find new buyers and seller for American business. And because FoxNation is so busy congratulating Trump to pay attention to this opportunity----it's getting lost. So Trump and our government are literally sitting on their *sses, waiting for China to make a move....instead of doing the smart thing, and making moves ourselves to help American business.

You want to applaud Trump for doing nothing, and waiting for China to capitulate, go right ahead. This is not how business is done. Guys like me can't inherit his money from Daddy to get ahead. Perot would have been ALL OVER this once in a lifetime opportunity.

I will have to admit to you that I don't get the nuts and bolts about how this trade issue with the Chicoms works. I do know the chicoms ship us enormous amounts of goods at almost no cost to them. The US sends to China a tiny fraction of goods just to create the impression they are doing something. I am not trying to pat Trump on the back. I understand what he is trying to do but his methodology is all screwed up IMO. I also understand your position that the US needs to get its allies on board with us... which we are not doing. I am sick and tired of Trump saying something different about the chicoms every damn day. One day Xi is a great guy that he can work with. The next day he is being irrational and stubborn. If you want to do something different... have a plan, tell your allies what the plan is and how it will work. What we are doing now is playing a game of economic chicken trying to find out what side will flinch first.

News flash... this morning the talking heads are saying the chicoms want to start negotiating again. If there is a deal out there to be made, both countries should work non stop to get it done. Failing that, stop playing stupid games and end the tariff war and go back to doing what has been done for so long... nothing much. I have always been an advocate for being pro active and doing something to deal with a problem. This is beginning to look like a case where doing nothing is starting to make more sense.

Pretty good summary of what's wrong with Trump's actions re China.

But I'm puzzled by these two sentences:

"I do know the chicoms ship us enormous amounts of goods at almost no cost to them. The US sends to China a tiny fraction of goods just to create the impression they are doing something."

By "cost to them" do you mean that the Chinese government should be paying us something for the opportunity to ship them goods? Or that the goods don't cost the Chinese anything to make? The latter is not accurate, the former would be quite strange.

We buy things from the Chinese because, in some cases, they are the best, more efficient, producer of those products worldwide. They buy some products from us where we are the most efficient, best producer worldwide. Their businesses make a profit, their people get paid. Our businesses make a profit, our people get paid. Their cost of labor is lower (as is their standard of living) so in labor-intensive products they have an advantage, however I wouldn't trade our standard of living for their cost advantage, would you?

There are indeed issues in our trade relations that deserved to be addressed, proactively, as well as long term strategic issues around how the world will be shaped and governed 100 years from now and so on. These are not easy or simple issues, nor do they lend themselves to press announcements and campaign promises. But doing business with the Chinese has and will be the best approach to creating peaceful coexistence with them.

By "cost to them" do you mean that the Chinese government should be paying us something for the opportunity to ship them goods? Or that the goods don't cost the Chinese anything to make? The latter is not accurate, the former would be quite strange.

Funny you should bring that up. I just priced out a new 3/8 drive Snap On socket set... state of the art made in America and guaranteed for life. The set with extensions and adapters was just over 400 dollars. I could buy a cheaper Chinese made set somewhat comparable in size and accessories for under 30 bucks. Since I am not a professional mechanic I chose a lesser SK set. Explain to me Mr smarty pants how my statement that the chicoms can build stuff cheaper... way way cheaper is innacurate. I suggest you meander on down to your local Harbor Freight store and check out where all these tools are made. I forgot... you are a blue blood republican with hands as soft as veal. What do you know about hand tools and the quality put in to them? The chicoms build chit tools and sell them over here with little cost to them to bring their chit tools into America where people who mostly don't understand the difference between chit tools and cheap crap and quality made tools will keep throwing good money after bad. I have had a set of Channel Lock pliers and wrenches I inherited from my father and are still going strong and work like the day they were purchased.

I may not understand the nuts and bolts of how the US of A does trade with the chicoms. I do know quality workmanship and quality tools. I have been working with them my entire life. The chit that the chicoms sell in the USA as tools is not worth the money people hand over at the cash register. If you understood the difference you would not have made such an asinine statement. I guess in your world the chicoms are selling us the best products they can make. The chicom chit is the reason I spend several sundays a year browsing the flea markets looking for rusty gold tools that need some TLC to bring back to life. A couple of months ago I bought an 8 inch and 10 inch set of Crescent wrench pliers made back in the day in Jamestown NY. I paid 5 bucks for them. I took them down to the shop, took them apart, wire wheeled them and hit them with 3 and 1 oil. They are like brand new tools I will hand over to my kids some day. I try and buy American made any time I can and wherever I can. That is the best single thing I can do to support American made products. It is getting harder and harder to do. Why is that? Easy for the chicoms to build cheap crap and sell it over here because it doesn't cost dicky doo to make... cheap crap.

[a fan]

I try and buy American made any time I can and wherever I can. That is the best single thing I can do to support American made products. It is getting harder and harder to do. Why is that?

Simple. 50 years of Republican policy of free trade over restricted trade that protects the American workforce. And this policy, obviously, was embraced by the Dems starting with Clinton, and ending with Obama. This is why I keep saying Clinton and Obama were center right.

And Hillary, of course, embraced this notion of free trade, too. And that, among many other reasons, why the left hates Hillary, and wanted Bernies instead.

Sounds like more and more Americans are catching on. Trickle down failed under Reagan, and it's failing under Trump.

BTW, Trump isn't going to fix this, even if he could write his dream policy with China. He's not saying we should throw up trade barriers. He's asking for, as far as I can tell, freer access to Chinese markets for exporters. That's not the same thing as enacting trade barriers to protect American workers from the unfair labor practices of developing nations.

Trump simply wants America to sell more stuff to the Chinese. And this will NOT fix the problem you are describing here.....

[MDlaxfan76]

I asked, you answered and I questioned the first step in your solution. To my knowledge after 16 years of Bush and Obama administrations neither administration did dicky doo to address the trade imbalance with the chicoms. Trump with all of his faults, calls out the chicoms and proposes his own solution

Really? What's his solution?

Both Bush and Obama tried to work at it. And the reason Trump is championing a Trade War is the same reason Old Salt, Tech, and others here are: they don't care about the financial damage because it's not their money that's getting affected.

Not giving a *hit how decisions affect others makes all kinds of leadership decisions awfully easy.

The US and its allies can't agree on what time the sun will come up. How can we expect them to find common ground on how to deal with the chicoms?

Simple. Money. And I laid out how to handle this over dozen times now. None of you are listening, and are too busy patting Trump on the back for starting a pointless Trade War to notice.

This Trade War is a massive opportunity to find new buyers and seller for American business. And because FoxNation is so busy congratulating Trump to pay attention to this opportunity----it's getting lost. So Trump and our government are literally sitting on their *sses, waiting for China to make a move....instead of doing the smart thing, and making moves ourselves to help American business.

You want to applaud Trump for doing nothing, and waiting for China to capitulate, go right ahead. This is not how business is done. Guys like me can't inherit his money from Daddy to get ahead. Perot would have been ALL OVER this once in a lifetime opportunity.

I will have to admit to you that I don't get the nuts and bolts about how this trade issue with the Chicoms works. I do know the chicoms ship us enormous amounts of goods at almost no cost to them. The US sends to China a tiny fraction of goods just to create the impression they are doing something. I am not trying to pat Trump on the back. I understand what he is trying to do but his methodology is all screwed up IMO. I also understand your position that the US needs to get its allies on board with us... which we are not doing. I am sick and tired of Trump saying something different about the chicoms every damn day. One day Xi is a great guy that he can work with. The next day he is being irrational and stubborn. If you want to do something different... have a plan, tell your allies what the plan is and how it will work. What we are doing now is playing a game of economic chicken trying to find out what side will flinch first.

News flash... this morning the talking heads are saying the chicoms want to start negotiating again. If there is a deal out there to be made, both countries should work non stop to get it done. Failing that, stop playing stupid games and end the tariff war and go back to doing what has been done for so long... nothing much. I have always been an advocate for being pro active and doing something to deal with a problem. This is beginning to look like a case where doing nothing is starting to make more sense.

Pretty good summary of what's wrong with Trump's actions re China.

But I'm puzzled by these two sentences:

"I do know the chicoms ship us enormous amounts of goods at almost no cost to them. The US sends to China a tiny fraction of goods just to create the impression they are doing something."

By "cost to them" do you mean that the Chinese government should be paying us something for the opportunity to ship them goods? Or that the goods don't cost the Chinese anything to make? The latter is not accurate, the former would be quite strange.

We buy things from the Chinese because, in some cases, they are the best, more efficient, producer of those products worldwide. They buy some products from us where we are the most efficient, best producer worldwide. Their businesses make a profit, their people get paid. Our businesses make a profit, our people get paid. Their cost of labor is lower (as is their standard of living) so in labor-intensive products they have an advantage, however I wouldn't trade our standard of living for their cost advantage, would you?

There are indeed issues in our trade relations that deserved to be addressed, proactively, as well as long term strategic issues around how the world will be shaped and governed 100 years from now and so on. These are not easy or simple issues, nor do they lend themselves to press announcements and campaign promises. But doing business with the Chinese has and will be the best approach to creating peaceful coexistence with them.

By "cost to them" do you mean that the Chinese government should be paying us something for the opportunity to ship them goods? Or that the goods don't cost the Chinese anything to make? The latter is not accurate, the former would be quite strange.

Funny you should bring that up. I just priced out a new 3/8 drive Snap On socket set... state of the art made in America and guaranteed for life. The set with extensions and adapters was just over 400 dollars. I could buy a cheaper Chinese made set somewhat comparable in size and accessories for under 30 bucks. Since I am not a professional mechanic I chose a lesser SK set. Explain to me Mr smarty pants how my statement that the chicoms can build stuff cheaper... way way cheaper is innacurate. I suggest you meander on down to your local Harbor Freight store and check out where all these tools are made. I forgot... you are a blue blood republican with hands as soft as veal. What do you know about hand tools and the quality put in to them? The chicoms build chit tools and sell them over here with little cost to them to bring their chit tools into America where people who mostly don't understand the difference between chit tools and cheap dump and quality made tools will keep throwing good money after bad. I have had a set of Channel Lock pliers and wrenches I inherited from my father and are still going strong and work like the day they were purchased.

I may not understand the nuts and bolts of how the US of A does trade with the chicoms. I do know quality workmanship and quality tools. I have been working with them my entire life. The chit that the chicoms sell in the USA as tools is not worth the money people hand over at the cash register. If you understood the difference you would not have made such an asinine statement. I guess in your world the chicoms are selling us the best products they can make. The chicom chit is the reason I spend several sundays a year browsing the flea markets looking for rusty gold tools that need some TLC to bring back to life. A couple of months ago I bought an 8 inch and 10 inch set of Crescent wrench pliers made back in the day in Jamestown NY. I paid 5 bucks for them. I took them down to the shop, took them apart, wire wheeled them and hit them with 3 and 1 oil. They are like brand new tools I will hand over to my kids some day. I try and buy American made any time I can and wherever I can. That is the best single thing I can do to support American made products. It is getting harder and harder to do. Why is that? Easy for the chicoms to build cheap dump and sell it over here because it doesn't cost dicky doo to make... cheap dump.

well, cradle, that's why I asked what you meant.
Apparently you mean that the Chinese can make goods at a lower cost than comparable goods made in America, despite shipping costs etc.
But hey, don't want them, don't buy them!

Yes, the Chinese can and do make stuff less expensively than we do. Especially stuff with a high labor component. They're also getting very good at automation as well, so they are moving up the food chain in terms of quality products. But then, so are we.

Making products at a lower cost is not 'dumping', it's capitalism. Now, there IS such a thing as "dumping" and it's illegal in international trade, and I'm all for international enforcement, but 99.9+% of all Chinese trade is not 'dumped'. It's made less expensively.

Rather than take offense at your 'hands as soft a veal' crack, let me just suggest that your story is what is 'asinine,' not me.

Why whine about a $30 set of tools being available to those who wish to buy them versus the $400 set (which you also apparently didn't buy)?
Those who value the absolute highest quality tools are totally free to buy the $400 set (or maybe the $500 German-made set), those who don't can buy the lower cost ones that don't come with the lifetime guarantee. Or you can go to the flea market and take your chances there.

BTW, no one forces the US company to make tools that they need to sell at $400 in order to make a profit. That's a choice. It's a value proposition on which they attempt to compete rather than price. They will undoubtedly, however, sell far fewer than the lower priced tools. Heck, I can replace the $400 tools a dozen times and still break even. And that's not including the time value of money. On the other hand, if I absolutely had to trust that the tools would be available and working with never any downtime, maybe the $400 set makes sense. Up to me to weigh those tradeoffs, right? Or maybe I just like the way the logo looks on the $400 set, maybe I want to brag to my buddies at the corner bar how I have those fancy schmantzy tools in my garage, just in case...After all they're "Made in America" and my buddies will like that I took a stand.

Point is it's my and your choice what to buy.

It cracks me up that those who whine about "socialism" and 'government regulation' and 'government control' at every turn are so happy to trash capitalism, yet will personally also buy the least expensive (comparable) goods whenever offered.

If you want to "Buy American", terrific. But let's see how you really do when we look at all your purchases...where were those avocados grown, the bell peppers? Is there any cell phone without foreign parts? How about a new sofa? Pair of shoes? Heck that new trailer hitch behind your truck, which has 30% parts made overseas.

Is this actually a problem?
Or would you prefer to pay 30-50% more for everything you buy?

[Trinity]

That trade deal with Japan that Trump announced in France? Crock of hooey.

[HooDat]

Making products at a lower cost is not 'dumping', it's capitalism. Now, there IS such a thing as "dumping" and it's illegal in international trade, and I'm all for international enforcement, but 99.9+% of all Chinese trade is not 'dumped'. It's made less expensively.

lots of good points in what you say in the broader post that I clipped this from, but the problem comes in what constitutes dumping. There are advantages to trade (obviously) but the question is who receives those advantages. Capital holders first and foremost benefit from the dramatically reduced cost of labor you get from China or developing countries. Often those workers are technically paid something resembling a wage in a currency (as my 20-yr old likes to say). The ugly truth is that the "compensation" those workers receive is less than the cost of owning slaves would be in the US and their living conditions may or may not be a whole lot better.

So, is it competition or is it dumping when the labor laws of another country are such that you would go to jail in the US for half the employment practices in those countries?

[youthathletics]

Making products at a lower cost is not 'dumping', it's capitalism. Now, there IS such a thing as "dumping" and it's illegal in international trade, and I'm all for international enforcement, but 99.9+% of all Chinese trade is not 'dumped'. It's made less expensively.

lots of good points in what you say in the broader post that I clipped this from, but the problem comes in what constitutes dumping. There are advantages to trade (obviously) but the question is who receives those advantages. Capital holders first and foremost benefit from the dramatically reduced cost of labor you get from China or developing countries. Often those workers are technically paid something resembling a wage in a currency (as my 20-yr old likes to say). The ugly truth is that the "compensation" those workers receive is less than the cost of owning slaves would be in the US and their living conditions may or may not be a whole lot better.

So, is it competition or is it dumping when the labor laws of another country are such that you would go to jail in the US for half the employment practices in those countries?

Looking forward to MD's reply....

[a fan]

lots of good points in what you say in the broader post that I clipped this from, but the problem comes in what constitutes dumping. There are advantages to trade (obviously) but the question is who receives those advantages. Capital holders first and foremost benefit from the dramatically reduced cost of labor you get from China or developing countries. Often those workers are technically paid something resembling a wage in a currency (as my 20-yr old likes to say). The ugly truth is that the "compensation" those workers receive is less than the cost of owning slaves would be in the US and their living conditions may or may not be a whole lot better.

This is such a tough question. It means, for example, we can't trade with 3rd or 2nd world nations who can't afford to give their workers 1st world wages and environmental standards. So F them? Tough to answer that, I think.

"Free Trade" means by definition that labor will drift to an average cost, no? That means Chinese workers will over time make more, and American workers over time will make less. Who's down for that? Multination corporations, as well as both the D's and the R's. They just hope voters don't notice.

So, is it competition or is it dumping when the labor laws of another country are such that you would go to jail in the US for half the employment practices in those countries?

You tell me. It's a really difficult question to answer, isn't it. If the answer is "it's dumping", the only answer is across the board tariffs on all imports from developing nations. Or, don't trade with them at all.

What I CAN tell you is that if the US started protecting its workers via tariffs, my sales would explode as all imports would get hit with pretty heavy tariffs.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Making products at a lower cost is not 'dumping', it's capitalism. Now, there IS such a thing as "dumping" and it's illegal in international trade, and I'm all for international enforcement, but 99.9+% of all Chinese trade is not 'dumped'. It's made less expensively.

lots of good points in what you say in the broader post that I clipped this from, but the problem comes in what constitutes dumping. There are advantages to trade (obviously) but the question is who receives those advantages. Capital holders first and foremost benefit from the dramatically reduced cost of labor you get from China or developing countries. Often those workers are technically paid something resembling a wage in a currency (as my 20-yr old likes to say). The ugly truth is that the "compensation" those workers receive is less than the cost of owning slaves would be in the US and their living conditions may or may not be a whole lot better.

So, is it competition or is it dumping when the labor laws of another country are such that you would go to jail in the US for half the employment practices in those countries?

It’s competition. We send the crappy jobs abroad and focus on the more value add here. When China’s standard of living improves and the society “advances” the jobs will be shipped to somewhere else. Remember when Japan was China?

[old salt]

Making products at a lower cost is not 'dumping', it's capitalism. Now, there IS such a thing as "dumping" and it's illegal in international trade, and I'm all for international enforcement, but 99.9+% of all Chinese trade is not 'dumped'. It's made less expensively.

lots of good points in what you say in the broader post that I clipped this from, but the problem comes in what constitutes dumping. There are advantages to trade (obviously) but the question is who receives those advantages. Capital holders first and foremost benefit from the dramatically reduced cost of labor you get from China or developing countries. Often those workers are technically paid something resembling a wage in a currency (as my 20-yr old likes to say). The ugly truth is that the "compensation" those workers receive is less than the cost of owning slaves would be in the US and their living conditions may or may not be a whole lot better.

So, is it competition or is it dumping when the labor laws of another country are such that you would go to jail in the US for half the employment practices in those countries?

It’s competition. We send the crappy jobs abroad and focus on the more value add here. When China’s standard of living improves and the society “advances” the jobs will be shipped to somewhere else. Remember when Japan was China?

So let's skip China (which steals our tech & IP + ships fentanyl & wants to turn the S China Sea into their toll road lake),
& ship the jobs to the Northern Triangle of Central America.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Making products at a lower cost is not 'dumping', it's capitalism. Now, there IS such a thing as "dumping" and it's illegal in international trade, and I'm all for international enforcement, but 99.9+% of all Chinese trade is not 'dumped'. It's made less expensively.

lots of good points in what you say in the broader post that I clipped this from, but the problem comes in what constitutes dumping. There are advantages to trade (obviously) but the question is who receives those advantages. Capital holders first and foremost benefit from the dramatically reduced cost of labor you get from China or developing countries. Often those workers are technically paid something resembling a wage in a currency (as my 20-yr old likes to say). The ugly truth is that the "compensation" those workers receive is less than the cost of owning slaves would be in the US and their living conditions may or may not be a whole lot better.

So, is it competition or is it dumping when the labor laws of another country are such that you would go to jail in the US for half the employment practices in those countries?

It’s competition. We send the crappy jobs abroad and focus on the more value add here. When China’s standard of living improves and the society “advances” the jobs will be shipped to somewhere else. Remember when Japan was China?

So let's skip China (which steals our tech & IP + ships fentanyl & wants to turn the S China Sea into their toll road lake),
& ship the jobs to the Northern Triangle of Central America.

Stick with playing with subs while taking a bath.

[old salt]

Making products at a lower cost is not 'dumping', it's capitalism. Now, there IS such a thing as "dumping" and it's illegal in international trade, and I'm all for international enforcement, but 99.9+% of all Chinese trade is not 'dumped'. It's made less expensively.

lots of good points in what you say in the broader post that I clipped this from, but the problem comes in what constitutes dumping. There are advantages to trade (obviously) but the question is who receives those advantages. Capital holders first and foremost benefit from the dramatically reduced cost of labor you get from China or developing countries. Often those workers are technically paid something resembling a wage in a currency (as my 20-yr old likes to say). The ugly truth is that the "compensation" those workers receive is less than the cost of owning slaves would be in the US and their living conditions may or may not be a whole lot better.

So, is it competition or is it dumping when the labor laws of another country are such that you would go to jail in the US for half the employment practices in those countries?

It’s competition. We send the crappy jobs abroad and focus on the more value add here. When China’s standard of living improves and the society “advances” the jobs will be shipped to somewhere else. Remember when Japan was China?

So let's skip China (which steals our tech & IP + ships fentanyl & wants to turn the S China Sea into their toll road lake),
& ship the jobs to the Northern Triangle of Central America.

Stick with playing with subs while taking a bath.

Stick with playing with your ambiguous genitalia while taking a bath.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Making products at a lower cost is not 'dumping', it's capitalism. Now, there IS such a thing as "dumping" and it's illegal in international trade, and I'm all for international enforcement, but 99.9+% of all Chinese trade is not 'dumped'. It's made less expensively.

lots of good points in what you say in the broader post that I clipped this from, but the problem comes in what constitutes dumping. There are advantages to trade (obviously) but the question is who receives those advantages. Capital holders first and foremost benefit from the dramatically reduced cost of labor you get from China or developing countries. Often those workers are technically paid something resembling a wage in a currency (as my 20-yr old likes to say). The ugly truth is that the "compensation" those workers receive is less than the cost of owning slaves would be in the US and their living conditions may or may not be a whole lot better.

So, is it competition or is it dumping when the labor laws of another country are such that you would go to jail in the US for half the employment practices in those countries?

It’s competition. We send the crappy jobs abroad and focus on the more value add here. When China’s standard of living improves and the society “advances” the jobs will be shipped to somewhere else. Remember when Japan was China?

So let's skip China (which steals our tech & IP + ships fentanyl & wants to turn the S China Sea into their toll road lake),
& ship the jobs to the Northern Triangle of Central America.

Stick with playing with subs while taking a bath.

Stick with playing with your ambiguous genitalia while taking a bath.

Ok. Seems to be something else you are fixated on: here is more...https://www.intersexequality.com/how-co ... in-humans/

Don't forget to wipe.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Old Salt,

I am going to apologize for that last post. Traveling all day yesterday and was just in an off mood. I also should have just let your "just move the jobs to the Northern Triangle" comment go. I was too testy and should not have "dumped the shooter".

[cradleandshoot]

I asked, you answered and I questioned the first step in your solution. To my knowledge after 16 years of Bush and Obama administrations neither administration did dicky doo to address the trade imbalance with the chicoms. Trump with all of his faults, calls out the chicoms and proposes his own solution

Really? What's his solution?

Both Bush and Obama tried to work at it. And the reason Trump is championing a Trade War is the same reason Old Salt, Tech, and others here are: they don't care about the financial damage because it's not their money that's getting affected.

Not giving a *hit how decisions affect others makes all kinds of leadership decisions awfully easy.

The US and its allies can't agree on what time the sun will come up. How can we expect them to find common ground on how to deal with the chicoms?

Simple. Money. And I laid out how to handle this over dozen times now. None of you are listening, and are too busy patting Trump on the back for starting a pointless Trade War to notice.

This Trade War is a massive opportunity to find new buyers and seller for American business. And because FoxNation is so busy congratulating Trump to pay attention to this opportunity----it's getting lost. So Trump and our government are literally sitting on their *sses, waiting for China to make a move....instead of doing the smart thing, and making moves ourselves to help American business.

You want to applaud Trump for doing nothing, and waiting for China to capitulate, go right ahead. This is not how business is done. Guys like me can't inherit his money from Daddy to get ahead. Perot would have been ALL OVER this once in a lifetime opportunity.

I will have to admit to you that I don't get the nuts and bolts about how this trade issue with the Chicoms works. I do know the chicoms ship us enormous amounts of goods at almost no cost to them. The US sends to China a tiny fraction of goods just to create the impression they are doing something. I am not trying to pat Trump on the back. I understand what he is trying to do but his methodology is all screwed up IMO. I also understand your position that the US needs to get its allies on board with us... which we are not doing. I am sick and tired of Trump saying something different about the chicoms every damn day. One day Xi is a great guy that he can work with. The next day he is being irrational and stubborn. If you want to do something different... have a plan, tell your allies what the plan is and how it will work. What we are doing now is playing a game of economic chicken trying to find out what side will flinch first.

News flash... this morning the talking heads are saying the chicoms want to start negotiating again. If there is a deal out there to be made, both countries should work non stop to get it done. Failing that, stop playing stupid games and end the tariff war and go back to doing what has been done for so long... nothing much. I have always been an advocate for being pro active and doing something to deal with a problem. This is beginning to look like a case where doing nothing is starting to make more sense.

Pretty good summary of what's wrong with Trump's actions re China.

But I'm puzzled by these two sentences:

"I do know the chicoms ship us enormous amounts of goods at almost no cost to them. The US sends to China a tiny fraction of goods just to create the impression they are doing something."

By "cost to them" do you mean that the Chinese government should be paying us something for the opportunity to ship them goods? Or that the goods don't cost the Chinese anything to make? The latter is not accurate, the former would be quite strange.

We buy things from the Chinese because, in some cases, they are the best, more efficient, producer of those products worldwide. They buy some products from us where we are the most efficient, best producer worldwide. Their businesses make a profit, their people get paid. Our businesses make a profit, our people get paid. Their cost of labor is lower (as is their standard of living) so in labor-intensive products they have an advantage, however I wouldn't trade our standard of living for their cost advantage, would you?

There are indeed issues in our trade relations that deserved to be addressed, proactively, as well as long term strategic issues around how the world will be shaped and governed 100 years from now and so on. These are not easy or simple issues, nor do they lend themselves to press announcements and campaign promises. But doing business with the Chinese has and will be the best approach to creating peaceful coexistence with them.

By "cost to them" do you mean that the Chinese government should be paying us something for the opportunity to ship them goods? Or that the goods don't cost the Chinese anything to make? The latter is not accurate, the former would be quite strange.

Funny you should bring that up. I just priced out a new 3/8 drive Snap On socket set... state of the art made in America and guaranteed for life. The set with extensions and adapters was just over 400 dollars. I could buy a cheaper Chinese made set somewhat comparable in size and accessories for under 30 bucks. Since I am not a professional mechanic I chose a lesser SK set. Explain to me Mr smarty pants how my statement that the chicoms can build stuff cheaper... way way cheaper is innacurate. I suggest you meander on down to your local Harbor Freight store and check out where all these tools are made. I forgot... you are a blue blood republican with hands as soft as veal. What do you know about hand tools and the quality put in to them? The chicoms build chit tools and sell them over here with little cost to them to bring their chit tools into America where people who mostly don't understand the difference between chit tools and cheap dump and quality made tools will keep throwing good money after bad. I have had a set of Channel Lock pliers and wrenches I inherited from my father and are still going strong and work like the day they were purchased.

I may not understand the nuts and bolts of how the US of A does trade with the chicoms. I do know quality workmanship and quality tools. I have been working with them my entire life. The chit that the chicoms sell in the USA as tools is not worth the money people hand over at the cash register. If you understood the difference you would not have made such an asinine statement. I guess in your world the chicoms are selling us the best products they can make. The chicom chit is the reason I spend several sundays a year browsing the flea markets looking for rusty gold tools that need some TLC to bring back to life. A couple of months ago I bought an 8 inch and 10 inch set of Crescent wrench pliers made back in the day in Jamestown NY. I paid 5 bucks for them. I took them down to the shop, took them apart, wire wheeled them and hit them with 3 and 1 oil. They are like brand new tools I will hand over to my kids some day. I try and buy American made any time I can and wherever I can. That is the best single thing I can do to support American made products. It is getting harder and harder to do. Why is that? Easy for the chicoms to build cheap dump and sell it over here because it doesn't cost dicky doo to make... cheap dump.

well, cradle, that's why I asked what you meant.
Apparently you mean that the Chinese can make goods at a lower cost than comparable goods made in America, despite shipping costs etc.
But hey, don't want them, don't buy them!

Yes, the Chinese can and do make stuff less expensively than we do. Especially stuff with a high labor component. They're also getting very good at automation as well, so they are moving up the food chain in terms of quality products. But then, so are we.

Making products at a lower cost is not 'dumping', it's capitalism. Now, there IS such a thing as "dumping" and it's illegal in international trade, and I'm all for international enforcement, but 99.9+% of all Chinese trade is not 'dumped'. It's made less expensively.

Rather than take offense at your 'hands as soft a veal' crack, let me just suggest that your story is what is 'asinine,' not me.

Why whine about a $30 set of tools being available to those who wish to buy them versus the $400 set (which you also apparently didn't buy)?
Those who value the absolute highest quality tools are totally free to buy the $400 set (or maybe the $500 German-made set), those who don't can buy the lower cost ones that don't come with the lifetime guarantee. Or you can go to the flea market and take your chances there.

BTW, no one forces the US company to make tools that they need to sell at $400 in order to make a profit. That's a choice. It's a value proposition on which they attempt to compete rather than price. They will undoubtedly, however, sell far fewer than the lower priced tools. Heck, I can replace the $400 tools a dozen times and still break even. And that's not including the time value of money. On the other hand, if I absolutely had to trust that the tools would be available and working with never any downtime, maybe the $400 set makes sense. Up to me to weigh those tradeoffs, right? Or maybe I just like the way the logo looks on the $400 set, maybe I want to brag to my buddies at the corner bar how I have those fancy schmantzy tools in my garage, just in case...After all they're "Made in America" and my buddies will like that I took a stand.

Point is it's my and your choice what to buy.

It cracks me up that those who whine about "socialism" and 'government regulation' and 'government control' at every turn are so happy to trash capitalism, yet will personally also buy the least expensive (comparable) goods whenever offered.

If you want to "Buy American", terrific. But let's see how you really do when we look at all your purchases...where were those avocados grown, the bell peppers? Is there any cell phone without foreign parts? How about a new sofa? Pair of shoes? Heck that new trailer hitch behind your truck, which has 30% parts made overseas.

Is this actually a problem?
Or would you prefer to pay 30-50% more for everything you buy?

The next time you get your car serviced look in the bays and observe what tool boxes you see. You will find 3 predominate name brands... Snap On, Mac and Matco. They are freaking expensive and American made and the reason professional mechanics use them is because they last and the wrench you are using wont break in half while you are trying to tighten or loosen a bolt. There is a good reason to pay top dollar for the best tools. Because they will not fail when you need them. You make a good point about how difficult it is to buy American. Very often you will find a dumb arse label that says made in the USA out of global components. So for the company to make that widget they have to import parts from all over the globe to build it. That's makes perfectly good sense to me. It is what it is when you purchase a good or service. I have no problem paying for the best and buying a superior product. To do so you have to be an educated consumer and you have to look hard to not buy cheap stuff that won't last. Caveat emptor as my limited knowledge of Latin goes.