The Nation's Financial Condition

[CU88]

Blah, blah, blah. All or nothing. Instant gratification or complete failure.

Comparing a warning to Syria to not use chem weapons, to getting China to change it's predatory trade tactics, is just plain stupid & a waste of time.

A LOT of US citizens support what Trump is trying to do with China & trade, & I'm one of them.

We won't get everything we want & it will take time to accomplish.

If the r's hero o d was legit he would have Donny Jr & Ivanka divest all of the family business finance and ventures from China.

Wanna bet on that action happening?

[old salt]

Threatening Assad with air strikes if he uses CW is just like using tariffs in a trade war with China. Okie Dokie.

Atta boy. Keep pretending you're not smart enough to get my point.

Making a threat and then not backing it up when your bluff is called signals weakness. You understood that----and wouldn't shut up about it-------when Obama did it.

Now you're pretending you don't understand that concept when Trump does it.

And no one is buying it here.

Wouldn't shut up about it ? I criticized it when it happened.
I only brought it up again when it was relevant -- when Trump was mocked for threatening Assad, then he followed through, & the airstrikes were dismissed as inconsequential, when in fact they have accomplished precisely what they were intended to accomplish.

[holmes435]

Lowering the payroll tax sounds great!

But how are we gonna pay for it? Ooh, how about taxing capital gains like labor, or going back to higher taxes on the wealthy like when our economy was booming in the 50's.

Because they're not labor. For individual private investors, they're long term investments of earnings which were already taxed once as labor.
For traders whose labor is trading, short term cap gains are already taxed as labor.
Carried interest should be taxed like labor.

Sure the investment was already taxed, but the earnings weren't. That's new income.

For traders (and many wealthy families) whose labor is trading and holding onto things longer than a year, capital gains aren't taxed as labor.

So increase the holding time from 1 yr to 3 yrs (or even 5 yrs) to qualify for the lower long term cap gain rate,
to encourage long term savings & investment, & lessen end-of-life defaulting to Medicaid spend down limits.

It's not about how long an investment is held, it's about an ever widening income gap and the fact that people aren't paying their fair share vs. blue collar men and women who are busting their butts and paying a higher percentage of taxes on their income vs long term investments.

There are many, many incentives to long term savings and investment outside of some tax savings. You're not going to see a drop in long term investment and savings if capital gains is taxed at the same rate as labor. It's just another way the wealthy (including most of us on here) are making things better for themselves vs. the working class.

[old salt]

Lowering the payroll tax sounds great!

But how are we gonna pay for it? Ooh, how about taxing capital gains like labor, or going back to higher taxes on the wealthy like when our economy was booming in the 50's.

Because they're not labor. For individual private investors, they're long term investments of earnings which were already taxed once as labor.
For traders whose labor is trading, short term cap gains are already taxed as labor.
Carried interest should be taxed like labor.

Sure the investment was already taxed, but the earnings weren't. That's new income.

For traders (and many wealthy families) whose labor is trading and holding onto things longer than a year, capital gains aren't taxed as labor.

So increase the holding time from 1 yr to 3 yrs (or even 5 yrs) to qualify for the lower long term cap gain rate,
to encourage long term savings & investment, & lessen end-of-life defaulting to Medicaid spend down limits.

It's not about how long an investment is held, it's about an ever widening income gap and the fact that people aren't paying their fair share vs. blue collar men and women who are busting their butts and paying a higher percentage of taxes on their income vs long term investments.

There are many, many incentives to long term savings and investment outside of some tax savings. You're not going to see a drop in long term investment and savings if capital gains is taxed at the same rate as labor. It's just another way the wealthy (including most of us on here) are making things better for themselves vs. the working class.

It's just another tax increase to further increase wealth transfer. Changing the laws after working earners made long term investment decisions during their earning years which can't be undone after they've retired. To cash out a large portfolio, the LTCG tax rate has already increased from 15% to 23.8%. Your proposal would raise it to 39.6%.

[a fan]

Wouldn't shut up about it ? I criticized it when it happened.

Ah, so you DO remember criticizing Obama's mistake. Great.

Thats means you understand that Trump made a mistake by threatening tariffs, and not following through. Signaling weakness, and emboldening the Chinese.

That wasn't so hard, was it? No one thinks less of you. The world keeps spinning.

[a fan]

It's just another tax increase to further increase wealth transfer. Changing the laws after working earners made long term investment decisions during their earning years which can't be undone after they've retired. To cash out a large portfolio, the LTCG tax rate has already increased from 15% to 23.8%. Your proposal would raise it to 39.6%.

Ah, so this proposal is going to levy financial hardship, huh?

Let me give you some advice on the subject of financial hardship that a friend gave me earlier this week.

"We can adapt, survive, & emerg stronger & more secure for the long haul for having made the sacrifice."

Oh, and another :"we'll survive".

So take this man's advice: don't complain, don't criticize, and accept the tax increase. You'll survive, right?

[cradleandshoot]

Wouldn't shut up about it ? I criticized it when it happened.

Ah, so you DO remember criticizing Obama's mistake. Great.

Thats means you understand that Trump made a mistake by threatening tariffs, and not following through. Signaling weakness, and emboldening the Chinese.

That wasn't so hard, was it? No one thinks less of you. The world keeps spinning.

So a Fan... how do you negotiate this issue with the Chicoms? They will negotiate this issue until you are rocking your grandkids on the back porch of your retirement cabin. I don't know if Trumps tactics are wrong or not... but he is doing something that neither party is willing to do... that would be trying to level the playing field between us and them. You can only be patient for so long until you have to have to take some sort of action. When Trumps says the chicoms have been taking advantage of our nations trade policy for many years... is he wrong or right? I seem to remember for the longest time both parties bitching about it and doing nothing to address the issue. So right or wrong he does something to deal with it and everybody is squealing like a stuck big. Do tariffs suck... yes they do. When it is the only option you have to bring the other folks back to the table and negotiate seriously... Trump may be right on this one. Unless you have a better way of strong-arming the chicoms to negotiating a better deal... what other options are out there? Sure we can negotiate for the next 50 years. What motivation do the chicoms have to negotiate? They are already winning this game going away. When you are winning why would you choose to compromise?

[holmes435]

Lowering the payroll tax sounds great!

But how are we gonna pay for it? Ooh, how about taxing capital gains like labor, or going back to higher taxes on the wealthy like when our economy was booming in the 50's.

Because they're not labor. For individual private investors, they're long term investments of earnings which were already taxed once as labor.
For traders whose labor is trading, short term cap gains are already taxed as labor.
Carried interest should be taxed like labor.

Sure the investment was already taxed, but the earnings weren't. That's new income.

For traders (and many wealthy families) whose labor is trading and holding onto things longer than a year, capital gains aren't taxed as labor.

So increase the holding time from 1 yr to 3 yrs (or even 5 yrs) to qualify for the lower long term cap gain rate,
to encourage long term savings & investment, & lessen end-of-life defaulting to Medicaid spend down limits.

It's not about how long an investment is held, it's about an ever widening income gap and the fact that people aren't paying their fair share vs. blue collar men and women who are busting their butts and paying a higher percentage of taxes on their income vs long term investments.

There are many, many incentives to long term savings and investment outside of some tax savings. You're not going to see a drop in long term investment and savings if capital gains is taxed at the same rate as labor. It's just another way the wealthy (including most of us on here) are making things better for themselves vs. the working class.

It's just another tax increase to further increase wealth transfer. Changing the laws after working earners made long term investment decisions during their earning years which can't be undone after they've retired. To cash out a large portfolio, the LTCG tax rate has already increased from 15% to 23.8%. Your proposal would raise it to 39.6%.

Right now we're already having unprecedented wealth transfer - upwards, put into place by the wealthy people lobbying the government and running it. We're talking about leveling the playing field some, not redistributing wealth.

Feel free to grandfather in existing investments if you honestly think that will have that big of an impact on pensioner households.

[a fan]

So a Fan... how do you negotiate this issue with the Chicoms?

Asked and answered pages ago. But here it is again:

------------
1. Line up all our allies. EU, NATO, PacRim. All of them. Get together and discuss how to hold China accountable for IP theft, etc.

2. While you're getting your allies together, you take that $30 Billion that Trump piddled away on farmers with no thought, and instead cut checks to the Commerce Dept, the Dept. of Ag, and other Departments....and take every US Trade Group out to new countries to establish new markets for US goods that would be hammered if we got into a Trade War with China.

These trips work. It's how, for example, my buseinss secured a few million in exports in the UK and EU....the Dept. of Ag funded sales junkets to London and Paris. The US officials helped facilitate meetings with willing buyers...and boom, we secured sale agreements.

Now if China cuts us off, our farmers and other sectors aren't caught with their pants down and have a head start on selling goods elsewhere.

3. Now you gather US officials, and go through "what if" scenarios. For example, even if we play our hand perfectly (whatever that might mean), China could elect to just shut down and start a Cold War. What do we do if that happens?

4. Now you're ready to start negotiating with China. We have to do all these things to protect US interests, and minimize the economic damage that is likely to follow.
-------------

There ya go. And that's just the broad strokes. Dozens of other things can be done. For example: anyone hear about Brexit? The Brits are rightfully freaking out. What if Trump steps in and offers a new UK/US tariff free work-exchange trade agreement? Let US or UK passports be good for jobs in the US like they were (with limitations) with the EU. Look at everything the UK gets from the EU, and offer same from US. Line up US/UK buyers and sellers.

This tiff with China can work out to our advantage----but in order for that to happen, Trump and the Federal government has to get off their ass@s and do something about it.

What do we have instead? We get zero planning, and a bunch of unplanned tweets in its place. And tech and old salt are playing dumb, acting like "it's all good, Trump's on the case". It's annoying. If you believe in sticking it to China, I'm 100% cool with that. But we need to use our heads if we're actually to come out for the best here. "Doing nothing" isn't a plan.

Further, I want to emphasize point #3. China may simply elect to move into a Cold War with the US. That's a complicated new situation, to put it mildly. Moreover, that doesn't stop the #1 gripe with China, does it? China can, and will go right on ripping off US intellectual property. So we have to understand that that issue is likely un-winnable unless Trump gets every one of our allies on board. And even then, they might not cave.

[old salt]

Lowering the payroll tax sounds great!

But how are we gonna pay for it? Ooh, how about taxing capital gains like labor, or going back to higher taxes on the wealthy like when our economy was booming in the 50's.

Because they're not labor. For individual private investors, they're long term investments of earnings which were already taxed once as labor.
For traders whose labor is trading, short term cap gains are already taxed as labor.
Carried interest should be taxed like labor.

Sure the investment was already taxed, but the earnings weren't. That's new income.

For traders (and many wealthy families) whose labor is trading and holding onto things longer than a year, capital gains aren't taxed as labor.

So increase the holding time from 1 yr to 3 yrs (or even 5 yrs) to qualify for the lower long term cap gain rate,
to encourage long term savings & investment, & lessen end-of-life defaulting to Medicaid spend down limits.

It's not about how long an investment is held, it's about an ever widening income gap and the fact that people aren't paying their fair share vs. blue collar men and women who are busting their butts and paying a higher percentage of taxes on their income vs long term investments.

There are many, many incentives to long term savings and investment outside of some tax savings. You're not going to see a drop in long term investment and savings if capital gains is taxed at the same rate as labor. It's just another way the wealthy (including most of us on here) are making things better for themselves vs. the working class.

It's just another tax increase to further increase wealth transfer. Changing the laws after working earners made long term investment decisions during their earning years which can't be undone after they've retired. To cash out a large portfolio, the LTCG tax rate has already increased from 15% to 23.8%. Your proposal would raise it to 39.6%.

Right now we're already having unprecedented wealth transfer - upwards, put into place by the wealthy people lobbying the government and running it. We're talking about leveling the playing field some, not redistributing wealth.

Feel free to grandfather in existing investments if you honestly think that will have that big of an impact on pensioner households.

Agree. Here's how to do it to keep faith with past investors & protect pensioners, & still incent long term investments going forward.

Capital gains realized on investments purchased after 1Jan2020 will be taxed as ordinary income.
Gains on investments purchased after 1Jan2020 & held at least 5 years (arbitrary duration) will be indexed for inflation.

[old salt]

Wouldn't shut up about it ? I criticized it when it happened.

Ah, so you DO remember criticizing Obama's mistake. Great.

Thats means you understand that Trump made a mistake by threatening tariffs, and not following through. Signaling weakness, and emboldening the Chinese.

That wasn't so hard, was it? No one thinks less of you. The world keeps spinning.

He is following through, Mr Instant Gratification.

[cradleandshoot]

So a Fan... how do you negotiate this issue with the Chicoms?

Asked and answered pages ago. But here it is again:

------------
1. Line up all our allies. EU, NATO, PacRim. All of them. Get together and discuss how to hold China accountable for IP theft, etc.

2. While you're getting your allies together, you take that $30 Billion that Trump piddled away on farmers with no thought, and instead cut checks to the Commerce Dept, the Dept. of Ag, and other Departments....and take every US Trade Group out to new countries to establish new markets for US goods that would be hammered if we got into a Trade War with China.

These trips work. It's how, for example, my buseinss secured a few million in exports in the UK and EU....the Dept. of Ag funded sales junkets to London and Paris. The US officials helped facilitate meetings with willing buyers...and boom, we secured sale agreements.

Now if China cuts us off, our farmers and other sectors aren't caught with their pants down and have a head start on selling goods elsewhere.

3. Now you gather US officials, and go through "what if" scenarios. For example, even if we play our hand perfectly (whatever that might mean), China could elect to just shut down and start a Cold War. What do we do if that happens?

4. Now you're ready to start negotiating with China. We have to do all these things to protect US interests, and minimize the economic damage that is likely to follow.
-------------

There ya go. And that's just the broad strokes. Dozens of other things can be done. For example: anyone hear about Brexit? The Brits are rightfully freaking out. What if Trump steps in and offers a new UK/US tariff free work-exchange trade agreement? Let US or UK passports be good for jobs in the US like they were (with limitations) with the EU. Look at everything the UK gets from the EU, and offer same from US. Line up US/UK buyers and sellers.

This tiff with China can work out to our advantage----but in order for that to happen, Trump and the Federal government has to get off their ass@s and do something about it.

What do we have instead? We get zero planning, and a bunch of unplanned tweets in its place. And tech and old salt are playing dumb, acting like "it's all good, Trump's on the case". It's annoying. If you believe in sticking it to China, I'm 100% cool with that. But we need to use our heads if we're actually to come out for the best here. "Doing nothing" isn't a plan.

Further, I want to emphasize point #3. China may simply elect to move into a Cold War with the US. That's a complicated new situation, to put it mildly. Moreover, that doesn't stop the #1 gripe with China, does it? China can, and will go right on ripping off US intellectual property. So we have to understand that that issue is likely un-winnable unless Trump gets every one of our allies on board. And even then, they might not cave.

I think point #1 becomes your biggest sticking point. If would could line up all our allies and get them on the same page that would be a minor miracle in and of itself. It seems to me that your approach has been what we have been trying to do with China for decades... get everybody on board and use the strength of numbers perspective. Until you work out point #1 everything else you write after that is a non starter. My point is that the chicoms are already sitting in the catbirds seat... why do they need to negotiate with anybody if it is not in their best interest? You seem to think that out of fairness and in the name of good sportsmanship the chicoms can be negotiated with using the strengths of numbers. Without leveredge those numbers mean bupkis.

Way back in the day the company I worked for was a union shop. We were all happy members of the Teamsters local 118. There were 3 separate bargaining units. Production, Drivers and Food Service Repair. When our contract expired our union guy came up to us and gave us the sob story about how these negotiations worked. The company offered us diddly squat and we responded with diddly squat plus fiddy cents an hour. Company told us to go and pound sand. We told our union guy it was an unacceptable offer. Union guy gave us the bottom line on how these politics played out. Nobody was happy with diddly squat but he could not authorize everybody else going on strike because they had at least offered us diddly squat.

The moral of this story is without everybody being willing to stick together we were stuck with diddly squat. This goes back to your point # 1 the weak link in your chain. What benefit is it for the other countries to stick with us against China? China has all the power in these negotiations. It is divide and conquer a Fan. The same practice the company used against us. You figure out how all these countries can unite as one against the chicoms and you should win some sort of a grand prize. Failing that these countries have to fear reciprocity from the chicoms for wanting to make waves to begin with.

[a fan]

You asked how I would handle it, and I laid it out.

As for #1 not working? I have said multiple times in this thread that I'd be okay going it alone AFTER trying to rally allies. Give 'em a few months to figure out if they're on board or not. And if not? Moving on is fine by me.

Want to hear a praise of Trump? I thought it was great that he threatened to pull out of the WTO-----if members aren't going to follow the rules, what's the point?

[a fan]

He is following through, Mr Instant Gratification.

After he got called out for it? Yep. You're right. It seems that Trump knows that not following a threat with action is a negotiating mistake.

So now everyone but you and tech see it was a mistake. Nice job! Stand your ground at all costs!

[Typical Lax Dad]

So a Fan... how do you negotiate this issue with the Chicoms?

Asked and answered pages ago. But here it is again:

------------
1. Line up all our allies. EU, NATO, PacRim. All of them. Get together and discuss how to hold China accountable for IP theft, etc.

2. While you're getting your allies together, you take that $30 Billion that Trump piddled away on farmers with no thought, and instead cut checks to the Commerce Dept, the Dept. of Ag, and other Departments....and take every US Trade Group out to new countries to establish new markets for US goods that would be hammered if we got into a Trade War with China.

These trips work. It's how, for example, my buseinss secured a few million in exports in the UK and EU....the Dept. of Ag funded sales junkets to London and Paris. The US officials helped facilitate meetings with willing buyers...and boom, we secured sale agreements.

Now if China cuts us off, our farmers and other sectors aren't caught with their pants down and have a head start on selling goods elsewhere.

3. Now you gather US officials, and go through "what if" scenarios. For example, even if we play our hand perfectly (whatever that might mean), China could elect to just shut down and start a Cold War. What do we do if that happens?

4. Now you're ready to start negotiating with China. We have to do all these things to protect US interests, and minimize the economic damage that is likely to follow.
-------------

There ya go. And that's just the broad strokes. Dozens of other things can be done. For example: anyone hear about Brexit? The Brits are rightfully freaking out. What if Trump steps in and offers a new UK/US tariff free work-exchange trade agreement? Let US or UK passports be good for jobs in the US like they were (with limitations) with the EU. Look at everything the UK gets from the EU, and offer same from US. Line up US/UK buyers and sellers.

This tiff with China can work out to our advantage----but in order for that to happen, Trump and the Federal government has to get off their ass@s and do something about it.

What do we have instead? We get zero planning, and a bunch of unplanned tweets in its place. And tech and old salt are playing dumb, acting like "it's all good, Trump's on the case". It's annoying. If you believe in sticking it to China, I'm 100% cool with that. But we need to use our heads if we're actually to come out for the best here. "Doing nothing" isn't a plan.

Further, I want to emphasize point #3. China may simply elect to move into a Cold War with the US. That's a complicated new situation, to put it mildly. Moreover, that doesn't stop the #1 gripe with China, does it? China can, and will go right on ripping off US intellectual property. So we have to understand that that issue is likely un-winnable unless Trump gets every one of our allies on board. And even then, they might not cave.

I think point #1 becomes your biggest sticking point. If would could line up all our allies and get them on the same page that would be a minor miracle in and of itself. It seems to me that your approach has been what we have been trying to do with China for decades... get everybody on board and use the strength of numbers perspective. Until you work out point #1 everything else you write after that is a non starter. My point is that the chicoms are already sitting in the catbirds seat... why do they need to negotiate with anybody if it is not in their best interest? You seem to think that out of fairness and in the name of good sportsmanship the chicoms can be negotiated with using the strengths of numbers. Without leveredge those numbers mean bupkis.

Way back in the day the company I worked for was a union shop. We were all happy members of the Teamsters local 118. There were 3 separate bargaining units. Production, Drivers and Food Service Repair. When our contract expired our union guy came up to us and gave us the sob story about how these negotiations worked. The company offered us diddly squat and we responded with diddly squat plus fiddy cents an hour. Company told us to go and pound sand. We told our union guy it was an unacceptable offer. Union guy gave us the bottom line on how these politics played out. Nobody was happy with diddly squat but he could not authorize everybody else going on strike because they had at least offered us diddly squat.

The moral of this story is without everybody being willing to stick together we were stuck with diddly squat. This goes back to your point # 1 the weak link in your chain. What benefit is it for the other countries to stick with us against China? China has all the power in these negotiations. It is divide and conquer a Fan. The same practice the company used against us. You figure out how all these countries can unite as one against the chicoms and you should win some sort of a grand prize. Failing that these countries have to fear reciprocity from the chicoms for wanting to make waves to begin with.

Sounds like the NFLPA

[cradleandshoot]

You asked how I would handle it, and I laid it out.

As for #1 not working? I have said multiple times in this thread that I'd be okay going it alone AFTER trying to rally allies. Give 'em a few months to figure out if they're on board or not. And if not? Moving on is fine by me.

Want to hear a praise of Trump? I thought it was great that he threatened to pull out of the WTO-----if members aren't going to follow the rules, what's the point?

I asked, you answered and I questioned the first step in your solution. To my knowledge after 16 years of Bush and Obama administrations neither administration did dicky doo to address the trade imbalance with the chicoms. Trump with all of his faults, calls out the chicoms and proposes his own solution. Now he is an effing moron that doesn't understand the big picture. Trump may be an effing moron but at least he had the balls to try and do something. It ain't like he is getting any support from any of the Democrats or republicans with their own ideas. If Obama and Bush had done SOMETHING about the issue instead of sticking their thumbs up their ass and taking a pass on it... it would not be an issue right now would it? I am not defending Trumps solution as being right or wrong.

I am saying it is a move in one direction to get a conversation started with the chicoms. Unless we are suppose to spend the next 100 years discussing it with the chicoms and accomplishing dicky doo. If nothing changes... nothing changes. The chicoms are just fine and dandy with that. They will be more than happy to watch the US and its allies chasing their tails around trying to come up with a consensus on how to deal with the chicoms when it comes to international trade. The US and its allies can't agree on what time the sun will come up. How can we expect them to find common ground on how to deal with the chicoms?

[Typical Lax Dad]

Obama attempted nothing. Sat around scratching his balls in a tan suit.

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/tp ... rade-14021

[youthathletics]

That about sums it up.

[a fan]

I asked, you answered and I questioned the first step in your solution. To my knowledge after 16 years of Bush and Obama administrations neither administration did dicky doo to address the trade imbalance with the chicoms. Trump with all of his faults, calls out the chicoms and proposes his own solution

Really? What's his solution?

Both Bush and Obama tried to work at it. And the reason Trump is championing a Trade War is the same reason Old Salt, Tech, and others here are: they don't care about the financial damage because it's not their money that's getting affected.

Not giving a *hit how decisions affect others makes all kinds of leadership decisions awfully easy.

The US and its allies can't agree on what time the sun will come up. How can we expect them to find common ground on how to deal with the chicoms?

Simple. Money. And I laid out how to handle this over dozen times now. None of you are listening, and are too busy patting Trump on the back for starting a pointless Trade War to notice.

This Trade War is a massive opportunity to find new buyers and seller for American business. And because FoxNation is so busy congratulating Trump to pay attention to this opportunity----it's getting lost. So Trump and our government are literally sitting on their *sses, waiting for China to make a move....instead of doing the smart thing, and making moves ourselves to help American business.

You want to applaud Trump for doing nothing, and waiting for China to capitulate, go right ahead. This is not how business is done. Guys like me can't inherit his money from Daddy to get ahead. Perot would have been ALL OVER this once in a lifetime opportunity.

[cradleandshoot]

I asked, you answered and I questioned the first step in your solution. To my knowledge after 16 years of Bush and Obama administrations neither administration did dicky doo to address the trade imbalance with the chicoms. Trump with all of his faults, calls out the chicoms and proposes his own solution

Really? What's his solution?

Both Bush and Obama tried to work at it. And the reason Trump is championing a Trade War is the same reason Old Salt, Tech, and others here are: they don't care about the financial damage because it's not their money that's getting affected.

Not giving a *hit how decisions affect others makes all kinds of leadership decisions awfully easy.

The US and its allies can't agree on what time the sun will come up. How can we expect them to find common ground on how to deal with the chicoms?

Simple. Money. And I laid out how to handle this over dozen times now. None of you are listening, and are too busy patting Trump on the back for starting a pointless Trade War to notice.

This Trade War is a massive opportunity to find new buyers and seller for American business. And because FoxNation is so busy congratulating Trump to pay attention to this opportunity----it's getting lost. So Trump and our government are literally sitting on their *sses, waiting for China to make a move....instead of doing the smart thing, and making moves ourselves to help American business.

You want to applaud Trump for doing nothing, and waiting for China to capitulate, go right ahead. This is not how business is done. Guys like me can't inherit his money from Daddy to get ahead. Perot would have been ALL OVER this once in a lifetime opportunity.

I will have to admit to you that I don't get the nuts and bolts about how this trade issue with the Chicoms works. I do know the chicoms ship us enormous amounts of goods at almost no cost to them. The US sends to China a tiny fraction of goods just to create the impression they are doing something. I am not trying to pat Trump on the back. I understand what he is trying to do but his methodology is all screwed up IMO. I also understand your position that the US needs to get its allies on board with us... which we are not doing. I am sick and tired of Trump saying something different about the chicoms every damn day. One day Xi is a great guy that he can work with. The next day he is being irrational and stubborn. If you want to do something different... have a plan, tell your allies what the plan is and how it will work. What we are doing now is playing a game of economic chicken trying to find out what side will flinch first.

News flash... this morning the talking heads are saying the chicoms want to start negotiating again. If there is a deal out there to be made, both countries should work non stop to get it done. Failing that, stop playing stupid games and end the tariff war and go back to doing what has been done for so long... nothing much. I have always been an advocate for being pro active and doing something to deal with a problem. This is beginning to look like a case where doing nothing is starting to make more sense.