The Nation's Financial Condition

[MDlaxfan76]

The fact that no one here, and no one in our leadership has even considered, let alone planned for, a Cold War with China freaks me out.

Plan for the worst. Hope for the best. I like tech37's optimism, for example. I think it's great. And in the end, I'm sure we'll wind up just fine as a nation in the end.

But this optimism ignores all the casualties along the way. We've had billions in damage, and counting. Real people. Real businesses. Real losses.

I guess I have assumed that our government has not only been planning for a cold war with China since Nixon's time, but we have actually been waging a very, VERY, low level cold war with them since if not the 70's then since the berlin wall fell. That goes for all "R" and "D" presidents.

I'd have assumed this as well, though I'd agree that it has been very, very low level. And that's probably the point.

During the Cold War with the Soviets it was quite out in the open that we were in such a contest, including fighting 'hot' wars with perceived 'dominoes'. The Soviet Union was considered much more than a global competitor, a potential adversary, rather they were full on adversary.

This Administration does not seem prepared for the concept that our competition with the state-run capitalism of China, with its global ambitions, could well turn into full adversarial mode if we don't work hard to avoid that turn. Or is it that we are blithely pushing down that path as if it's actually inevitable, rather than avoidable?

I heard the latter voiced just the other day. "Better now than later when they're stronger" my friend said.

But wait, do we really think we can bring China to its knees such that they will desist in growing their economy to provide a standard of living for their people comparable to our own??? And that won't result in hot conflict???

Oh yeah, like trade wars, 'hot' conflicts are easy to win. We've got more nukes than they do.

[wahoomurf]

MDL...well, actually we do have two trolls on the very hard right.
It's speculated that it's one guy operating under two aliases now instead of just the original one.

ONLY TWO?

[MDlaxfan76]

MDL...well, actually we do have two trolls on the very hard right.
It's speculated that it's one guy operating under two aliases now instead of just the original one.

ONLY TWO?

I know, I know, I'm being generous with my terms.

I don't like using the word 'troll' to describe those who seem to be making a bona fide effort to make their case, as messed up as I may find their thinking to be. I reserve that word for those all anger, all total BS, all the time. Could be hard right or hard left. I don't think any of our lefties on here currently fall into that category. However, a couple on the hard right do. I suspect it's just one guy.

As I said there are several other cats who are all-in for Trump, but it's less clear that they are uniformly hard right in their own views. It seems more about just following him than anything else. That said, they do seem to only cite right and hard right media sources as if gospel.

[CU88]

r's theory on economics; "...just in case..."

"What we’ve done is we’ve delayed it so they won’t be relevant in the Christmas shopping season,” Trump said before boarding a flight to western Pennsylvania. “Just in case they might have an impact on people.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... trump-out/

DEPLORABLE

[a fan]

r's theory on economics; "...just in case..."

"What we’ve done is we’ve delayed it so they won’t be relevant in the Christmas shopping season,” Trump said before boarding a flight to western Pennsylvania. “Just in case they might have an impact on people.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... trump-out/

DEPLORABLE

If you're reading this comment from Trump, and you still think China is going to cave on IP and other issues before the election, the jury is now in: you're a fool.


THIS is the master deal maker? Telling China, in print, that he can't sustain this trade war?

[Typical Lax Dad]

r's theory on economics; "...just in case..."

"What we’ve done is we’ve delayed it so they won’t be relevant in the Christmas shopping season,” Trump said before boarding a flight to western Pennsylvania. “Just in case they might have an impact on people.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... trump-out/

DEPLORABLE

If you're reading this comment from Trump, and you still think China is going to cave on IP and other issues before the election, the jury is now in: you're a fool.


THIS is the master deal maker? Telling China, in print, that he can't sustain this trade war?

Trump became famous by basically making false claims. Why anyone thinks he could run or negotiate anything is beyond me. When you are a contractor that has leverage and can stiff people, it is not so hard. You can't tell China, "I am not going to pay you but you can use my name as a reference".....

[a fan]

As I said there are several other cats who are all-in for Trump, but it's less clear that they are uniformly hard right in their own views. It seems more about just following him than anything else. That said, they do seem to only cite right and hard right media sources as if gospel.

That's because the right wing media sources aren't right wing-----they're Republicans, which means: anything that lines my pockets is cool.

Bigger government, epic spending increases, more socialism, more handouts, trade barriers (?), union protecting policies.....every single one of these things was the domain of the left. Now? Trumpists wave it all through. It's all good for Trump fans, and it's utterly hilarious to watch. Better still, their excuses as to why lefty Trump is a-ok with them are simply something to behold.

[MDlaxfan76]

As I said there are several other cats who are all-in for Trump, but it's less clear that they are uniformly hard right in their own views. It seems more about just following him than anything else. That said, they do seem to only cite right and hard right media sources as if gospel.

That's because the right wing media sources aren't right wing-----they're Republicans, which means: anything that lines my pockets is cool.

Bigger government, epic spending increases, more socialism, more handouts, trade barriers (?), union protecting policies.....every single one of these things was the domain of the left. Now? Trumpists wave it all through. It's all good for Trump fans, and it's utterly hilarious to watch. Better still, their excuses as to why lefty Trump is a-ok with them are simply something to behold.

Yes, but some of the resentment and hate of 'others' is there as well, most notably Muslims, immigrants, African Americans, and this underlying anger at feminist women, coupled with transphobia. That resentment and even hate seem to be what unites the 'hard-right' these days.

But economics, foreign policy etc? all lefty.

[Trinity]

Dow sinks 800 as unnecessary trade war leads to first inverted yield curve since 2007.

[CU88]

Dow sinks 800 as unnecessary trade war leads to first inverted yield curve since 2007.

Soooooooo much winning!

At most the Fed only has 8 cuts to try and boost the Economy.

[HooDat]

Yes, but some of the resentment and hate of 'others' is there as well, most notably Muslims, immigrants, African Americans, and this underlying anger at feminist women, coupled with transphobia. That resentment and even hate seem to be what unites the 'hard-right' these days.

this is not what I see in the Trump supporters I know. I do come across some folks that are pretty racist in their outlook - but not many. The worst I would say about the vast majority of Trump types that I encounter is that they are tired of being called haters. And they are tired of being told to feel guilty, and they are having a hard time with things like female identifying folks with male plumbing competing in women's sports. There is definitely a lack of empathy behind their feelings on the matter - but not much hate. Hate is a very strong word, that is being thrown around far too much these days. It needs to retain its power.

[a fan]

Yes, but some of the resentment and hate of 'others' is there as well, most notably Muslims, immigrants, African Americans, and this underlying anger at feminist women, coupled with transphobia. That resentment and even hate seem to be what unites the 'hard-right' these days.

this is not what I see in the Trump supporters I know. I do come across some folks that are pretty racist in their outlook - but not many.

I have never met a Trump supporter that was an overt racist. And I'm met dozens. Not racists. But they all have the same thread: they buy Trump's schtick.

They think he's "different", and is actually doing what he claims he's doing. They think government is smaller, spending is down, the deficit is shrinking, immigration is fixed, Iran is fixed, swamp is drained, N Korea is fixed, and on and on. And if you point out that nope, he's done precisely none of those things, they ALWAYS come back with "at least he's trying". Which is just the dumbest answer you can give. Because, obviously so was Obama. And Bush. And Clinton. And.....

The worst I would say about the vast majority of Trump types that I encounter is that they are tired of being called haters.

Snowflakes need a huggy, and don't like being called names? Ironic, isn't it?

[cradleandshoot]

Yes, but some of the resentment and hate of 'others' is there as well, most notably Muslims, immigrants, African Americans, and this underlying anger at feminist women, coupled with transphobia. That resentment and even hate seem to be what unites the 'hard-right' these days.

this is not what I see in the Trump supporters I know. I do come across some folks that are pretty racist in their outlook - but not many.

I have never met a Trump supporter that was an overt racist. And I'm met dozens. Not racists. But they all have the same thread: they buy Trump's schtick.

They think he's "different", and is actually doing what he claims he's doing. They think government is smaller, spending is down, the deficit is shrinking, immigration is fixed, Iran is fixed, swamp is drained, N Korea is fixed, and on and on. And if you point out that nope, he's done precisely none of those things, they ALWAYS come back with "at least he's trying". Which is just the dumbest answer you can give. Because, obviously so was Obama. And Bush. And Clinton. And.....

The worst I would say about the vast majority of Trump types that I encounter is that they are tired of being called haters.

Snowflakes need a huggy, and don't like being called names? Ironic, isn't it?

.
You wonder why they buy Trumps schtick? The very same reason why a bunch of brain damaged FLP folks are singing the praises of the Green New Steal. Tell me a Fan with your knack for candor... you have no problem spending 35 trillion dollars with no gameplan as to how the money will be spent or what the end game is? How much money would you invest into your own business with no gameplan what that investment would bring you? Would that investment be less questionable to you if you were investing "other peoples money" ? That is what the Green New Steal is. The government ain't investing their money... they are rolling craps being bankrolled by you and I. The fact that so many people don't give a sheepdip about that scares the hell out of me. I love to gamble but i bet my money knowing what i can afford to lose and never betting into a blind hand.

[DocBarrister]

Yes, but some of the resentment and hate of 'others' is there as well, most notably Muslims, immigrants, African Americans, and this underlying anger at feminist women, coupled with transphobia. That resentment and even hate seem to be what unites the 'hard-right' these days.

this is not what I see in the Trump supporters I know. I do come across some folks that are pretty racist in their outlook - but not many. The worst I would say about the vast majority of Trump types that I encounter is that they are tired of being called haters. And they are tired of being told to feel guilty, and they are having a hard time with things like female identifying folks with male plumbing competing in women's sports. There is definitely a lack of empathy behind their feelings on the matter - but not much hate. Hate is a very strong word, that is being thrown around far too much these days. It needs to retain its power.

“Hate” is an entirely appropriate word to describe Trump and his most fervent supporters. Trump and his most fervent supporters:

HATE immigrants;

HATE Latino Americans;

HATE African Americans;

HATE Asian Americans;

HATE feminists;

HATE the LGBTQ community; and

HATE Muslims;

“Hate” is indeed a powerful word, and it is absolutely proper to apply it to Trump & his most fervent supporters.

DocBarrister

[a fan]

You wonder why they buy Trumps schtick? The very same reason why a bunch of brain damaged FLP folks are singing the praises of the Green New Steal. Tell me a Fan with your knack for candor... you have no problem spending 35 trillion dollars with no gameplan as to how the money will be spent or what the end game is?

Of course I do!

[tech37]

All those smelly deplorables (according to Strzok) shopping at Walmart saving the Dow? Trump and his advisors understand this, thus the relaxed tariff lineup as mentioned. Oh wait, they "caved."

Say it again...Stop selling people! The Chicomms know the more they dig in their heels, the more the nervous nellie US investor will wreck the market.

Recession in 2020?...that's debatable. For certain though, despite the weak D lineup, Trump has his work cut out for him. Without a strong market, IMO, he's toast.

[foreverlax]

All those smelly deplorables (according to Strzok) shopping at Walmart saving the Dow? Trump and his advisors understand this, thus the relaxed tariff lineup as mentioned. Oh wait, they "caved."

Say it again...Stop selling people! The Chicomms know the more they dig in their heels, the more the nervous nellie US investor will wreck the market.

Recession in 2020?...that's debatable. For certain though, despite the weak D lineup, Trump has his work cut out for him. Without a strong market, IMO, he's toast.

The Navarro Recession, II
Evidence of a tariff-inspired slowdown spooks the markets.

After we warned last week that U.S. trade policy was courting recession, White House aide Peter Navarro took to Fox Business to denounce us for sounding like The People’s Daily, the Chinese Communist propaganda arm. That was novel as criticisms of these columns go, but perhaps Mr. Navarro would care to comment again after Wednesday’s recession warning from the bond and equity markets? Are they Commies too?

Stocks fell about 3% on the day on bad economic news out of Germany, China and the bond markets. Europe’s largest economy shrank by 0.1% in the second quarter as exports fell amid trade and Brexit uncertainty. Chinese readings on factory production, consumption and employment also revealed an economy that is slowing sharply. China’s industrial production increase of 4.8% was a 17-year low.

Investors saw all that and headed for the tall grass of U.S. Treasurys. The yield on the 10-year note hit 1.58%, dipping for a time below the two-year bond yield. The 30-year Treasury hit a record low of 2.018% and closed at 2.02%. Yields this low show investors are moving out of risk assets and they signal slower growth ahead—perhaps even a recession unless events and better policies spur more optimism.

Some Trumpians are cheering the Chinese economy’s pain, but they should be careful what they wish for. They could drive China, the world’s second largest economy, into its first recession since Deng Xiaoping began the era of pro-market economic reform.

A Chinese recession would mean a European recession, which would send U.S. growth down too. The impact would be worse if slower growth triggers capital flight from China and there’s a disorderly fall in the yuan.

Mr. Navarro and President Trump spent Wednesday blaming the Federal Reserve for the market meltdown, and we suppose any scapegoat will do in a storm. The Fed isn’t blameless, and we argued it shouldn’t have raised rates last December. But it has since countered that rate increase with a 25-basis-point cut in July, and even another 50 basis points won’t be enough to counter a downward spiral of trade and currency mayhem.

We’ve been warning for two years that trade wars have economic consequences, but the wizards of protectionism told Mr. Trump not to worry. The economy was fine and the trade worrywarts were wrong.

But we never said tariffs would produce immediate recession. We said they—and the climate of uncertainty they were creating for business—would chill global trade and undermine the surge in capital investment spurred by tax reform and deregulation. The growth momentum from tax cuts and a strong labor market were able to mask the impact of helter-skelter trade policy for a time. But that old economic disciplinarian, Adam Smith, sooner or later exacts a price for policy blunders.

Wednesday’s market moves are an omen of the future, not destiny. The key to avoiding the worst is to restore a sense of policy calm and confidence. Stop the trade threats by tweet. Call a tariff truce with China, Europe and the rest of the world while negotiations resume with a goal of reaching a deal by the meeting of Pacific nations in November. Someone should tell Mr. Trump that incumbent Presidents who preside over recessions within two years of an election rarely get a second term.

Trump has set this in motion....

[MDlaxfan76]

You wonder why they buy Trumps schtick? The very same reason why a bunch of brain damaged FLP folks are singing the praises of the Green New Steal. Tell me a Fan with your knack for candor... you have no problem spending 35 trillion dollars with no gameplan as to how the money will be spent or what the end game is?

Of course I do!

He keeps thinking you're a liberal.
Makes the same mistake with me too.

Nah, he doesn't "hate" liberals...they're just "brain damaged".

[MDlaxfan76]

Yes, but some of the resentment and hate of 'others' is there as well, most notably Muslims, immigrants, African Americans, and this underlying anger at feminist women, coupled with transphobia. That resentment and even hate seem to be what unites the 'hard-right' these days.

this is not what I see in the Trump supporters I know. I do come across some folks that are pretty racist in their outlook - but not many.

I have never met a Trump supporter that was an overt racist. And I'm met dozens. Not racists. But they all have the same thread: they buy Trump's schtick.

They think he's "different", and is actually doing what he claims he's doing. They think government is smaller, spending is down, the deficit is shrinking, immigration is fixed, Iran is fixed, swamp is drained, N Korea is fixed, and on and on. And if you point out that nope, he's done precisely none of those things, they ALWAYS come back with "at least he's trying". Which is just the dumbest answer you can give. Because, obviously so was Obama. And Bush. And Clinton. And.....

The worst I would say about the vast majority of Trump types that I encounter is that they are tired of being called haters.

Snowflakes need a huggy, and don't like being called names? Ironic, isn't it?

I would agree that most folks I know who supported and still support Trump are not overt racists. But then again, I don't hang out with overt racists.

My friends and family are genuinely well meaning people who believe they would treat any person they meet as an individual, judging them for who they are, not their religion, race, gender etc. That's at least what they believe they would do, and in practice they actually do at least some of the time.

And they usually don't use explicitly bigoted language.

But, in less guarded moments, bigotry does bubble out. Alcohol loosens some tongues, social media others. Sometimes it's just a heated discussion.

They definitely are Islamaphobic...high degree of this. Exact same folks have in earlier decades said anti-semitic tropes. They make comments about "African American culture" and "it's their own fault" and had previously said things about African Americans not being "as smart" as whites. Have always been angry about affirmative action. I see the same sort of gender phobia.

HooDat, to an extent I think you're right about folks like this being 'tired' of being called 'haters'. They are affirmed in this resentment by the right wing media, and embrace a jerk like Trump who plays up these resentments loudly. They leap to each edge issue and whine about how the liberals are going 'too far'.

They do resent libs for requiring them to watch how they say things, to be 'politically correct' in their language. IE don't say bigoted things, instead actually be aware of how one's words offend others. How horrible!

There's a deep strain of bigotry in America, and to deny that reality is truly ostrich behavior.

a fan, Yes, these folks do buy into Trump's shtick, despite their lying eyes. Despite that the policies are often quite the opposite of their supposedly strongly held beliefs about deficits, trade, etc.

So, I ask 'why'? Is it that Trump himself is so charismatic?
Or is it because he's tapped into that bigotry?
I think it's that underlying bigotry.
He gives it voice...and they say we like that's he's not 'politically correct'.

[old salt]

Yes, but some of the resentment and hate of 'others' is there as well, most notably Muslims, immigrants, African Americans, and this underlying anger at feminist women, coupled with transphobia. That resentment and even hate seem to be what unites the 'hard-right' these days.

this is not what I see in the Trump supporters I know. I do come across some folks that are pretty racist in their outlook - but not many.

I have never met a Trump supporter that was an overt racist. And I'm met dozens. Not racists. But they all have the same thread: they buy Trump's schtick.

They think he's "different", and is actually doing what he claims he's doing. They think government is smaller, spending is down, the deficit is shrinking, immigration is fixed, Iran is fixed, swamp is drained, N Korea is fixed, and on and on. And if you point out that nope, he's done precisely none of those things, they ALWAYS come back with "at least he's trying". Which is just the dumbest answer you can give. Because, obviously so was Obama. And Bush. And Clinton. And.....

The worst I would say about the vast majority of Trump types that I encounter is that they are tired of being called haters.

Snowflakes need a huggy, and don't like being called names? Ironic, isn't it?

I would agree that most folks I know who supported and still support Trump are not overt racists. But then again, I don't hang out with overt racists.

My friends and family are genuinely well meaning people who believe they would treat any person they meet as an individual, judging them for who they are, not their religion, race, gender etc. That's at least what they believe they would do, and in practice they actually do at least some of the time.

And they usually don't use explicitly bigoted language.

But, in less guarded moments, bigotry does bubble out. Alcohol loosens some tongues, social media others. Sometimes it's just a heated discussion.

They definitely are Islamaphobic...high degree of this. Exact same folks have in earlier decades said anti-semitic tropes. They make comments about "African American culture" and "it's their own fault" and had previously said things about African Americans not being "as smart" as whites. Have always been angry about affirmative action. I see the same sort of gender phobia.

HooDat, to an extent I think you're right about folks like this being 'tired' of being called 'haters'. They are affirmed in this resentment by the right wing media, and embrace a jerk like Trump who plays up these resentments loudly. They leap to each edge issue and whine about how the liberals are going 'too far'.

They do resent libs for requiring them to watch how they say things, to be 'politically correct' in their language. IE don't say bigoted things, instead actually be aware of how one's words offend others. How horrible!

There's a deep strain of bigotry in America, and to deny that reality is truly ostrich behavior.

a fan, Yes, these folks do buy into Trump's shtick, despite their lying eyes. Despite that the policies are often quite the opposite of their supposedly strongly held beliefs about deficits, trade, etc.

So, I ask 'why'? Is it that Trump himself is so charismatic?
Or is it because he's tapped into that bigotry?
I think it's that underlying bigotry.
He gives it voice...and they say we like that's he's not 'politically correct'.

Perhaps your family & social circle are not a representative sampling.