Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

[gymman1031]

Thoughts on this? I do know that, more often than not, this hasn't been the case for pro teams in the most rabid lacrosse areas of America.

[Dunker]

They may make it. I hope so. I doubt they will draw great crowds.

[palaxoff]

The odds are stacked against that happening. Lacrosse is still a niche sport not even 1,000,000 participants at all levels men and women. . I'd say a high percentage rather play then watch. Not sure the festival model of PLL for sports is viable longer term. 12,000-14,000 fans over a weekend not stellar, probably be less second year as novelty wears off. The TV ratings aren't great either.

[Henpecked]

I know some people posting on this forum have expressed concerns about the leadership of the PLL. It seems like they are employing the "fake it till you make it" formula for success.

On a positive side, they have what seems like limitless funding from Wall Street and billionaires like Joe Tsai (of Alibaba and Yale Lacrosse fame). They also have a TV deal with NBC who is starved for affordable sports entertainment. And they have the lion share of talented star players under contract with their teams. And for the most part the games have been pretty well-played and entertaining. So that is good.

On a negative side, the attendance and TV ratings are paltry compared to ANY other major sport. How long will NBC hang in? The ads that are being run during the broadcasts are pretty hilarious. For people in the media business, the giveaway for a poorly-rated (and purchased) program is REALLY awful advertising. The PLL has that in bunches. I am waiting for the Ronco Pocket Fisherman ads to make a comeback on these broadcasts.

I think that Paul Rabil is a pretty charismatic guy and got a lot of people to buy into the league and its 'Players First" concept. I am not too sure how patient these folks will be in future years when Paul glams it up on the red carpet with his sockless Gucci shoes, leopard-print jacket and matching fedora at All-star events. Seemed a bit over-the-top in my opinion. But what the hell do I know?

Fake it till you make it. I guess.

[xxxxxxx]

My college playing son who has a friend who is an intern with the PLL tells me that the most important thing is social media. More important than attendance or TV ratings, the new money in advertising lies with clicks on social media sites. i don't know if this is true and wonder what people who know much more about this than I think?

[oldjayfan]

My college playing son who has a friend who is an intern with the PLL tells me that the most important thing is social media. More important than attendance or TV ratings, the new money in advertising lies with clicks on social media sites. i don't know if this is true and wonder what people who know much more about this than I think?

The purported NBC tv deal is hocus pocus--no money is being paid to the PLL to show the games. Sports channels have a dearth of games to show at this time of year and are desperate for content..what happens when football starts in 2 weeks? No one will be watching PLL. Not sure how you gain traction without a "home fan-base" to support the teams. I know Rabil said they are mirroring the PGA or Tennis circuit; but, those are individual sports... Dubious as to how many social media "clicks" the PLL actually gets.

Pro lacrosse should be played, on Sundays, during the college season(like football). I know the argument is that many guys are playing in the NLL until May and several others are coaching so the season can't start until after May. Poppycock! Players have to decide which league they want to play in(box or field) and if they want to coach vs play. Summertime is for camps, vacation, etc...and extending into September vs Football is foolhardy!

[HopFan16]

I know some people posting on this forum have expressed concerns about the leadership of the PLL. It seems like they are employing the "fake it till you make it" formula for success.

On a positive side, they have what seems like limitless funding from Wall Street and billionaires like Joe Tsai (of Alibaba and Yale Lacrosse fame). They also have a TV deal with NBC who is starved for affordable sports entertainment. And they have the lion share of talented star players under contract with their teams. And for the most part the games have been pretty well-played and entertaining. So that is good.

One could argue that getting lots of funding from Wall Street, signing a major TV deal with NBC, bringing in most of the top players, and putting out a solid product are signs that someone knows what they're doing. But I think the fact of the matter is that lacrosse just is not a very popular sport, and professional lacrosse is even less popular than college, which at least has the benefit of legacies, traditions, and guys like us rooting for their alma maters. But whether pro lacrosse does a tour-based model that emphasizes individual personalities (as the PLL is doing) or has teams based on certain hotbeds around the country (as the MLL did and is still trying to do), it's difficult to get new people interested in a sport that isn't already a staple of American culture. I think the PLL generally has the right idea—they're leaning into what makes the game fun to watch on TV: fast pace of play, big hits, transition play, crafty finishes, etc., and the mic'd up players and coaches and sports science stuff is all cool and I've had several non-lacrosse fans tell me that's what they like most about it. The TV product is good. And they treat the players well—which is step numero uno if you want your work force to fight for you and help grow the industry. That was never going to happen in the MLL, which treated its players like dirt in more ways than you can even count. So there will be growing pains, and low attendance numbers, but I do think Rabil has created something that might have some legs. Whether or not it's able to significantly grow the population of people interested in lacrosse is another story but I think it'll at least be around for awhile and has a better shot than the MLL does at truly "growing the game" beyond where it is today.

[d3commenter]

I think you guys are way off base. The PLL is gaining more attention in its first year than pro lacrosse has gotten ever in its existence, and its precisely for the reasons you guys talk about as evidence it can't last long term.

Lacrosse loyalty across its fan base is mainly tied to college teams and, to a higher degree, individual players. The tour model capitalizes on this even without lacrosse being an individual sport. Get a bunch of college teammates on a pro team and allow them to grow their personal brand on social media? Seems like a very good way to bring college fans into the pro game if you ask me.

This is a league clearly geared towards younger fans. These are fans who value the live experience of the sport and the opportunity to meet and interact with players when they come to their city. Add that to the live music and beer garden aspects and now parents have a reason to bring the kids to the event even if they don't have much interest in the games. Not to mention the MLL already failed at gaining traction with "home" teams, so why would it make sense to copy that model instead of trying something new? With lacrosse growing all around the country and with fans whose allegiances aren't tied to geography, forcing loyalty based on cities doesn't make sense.

As for the red carpet being "over the top" - look at the success of the NBA. Its quickly becoming the most popular league in the country and the players have all the power as well as active presence on social media. The intern mentioned is spot on - clicks and social media advertising opportunities are at an absolute premium right now, and getting a strong base of young fans who are constantly on their social media and less often watching cable TV seems like good long term strategy to me.

While the broadcasts may not be getting great ratings, there is a level of professionalism here that is unmatched in pro lacrosse. How are you going to access new fans and enhance the sport's legitimacy at the pro level if people are forced to stream some underfunded LSN broadcast on youtube? The MLL can barely even keep stats accurately and reportedly serve beer and pizza to players post game. The level of access we get to players on the broadcasts is innovative and exciting and not available anywhere else in sports (only place I have seen it in major sports is curing some MLB all star events). If lacrosse wants to be professional, the product on the field, in the stadium and online / TV needs to reflect that. The PLL has done that far better than any other attempt at pro lacrosse and its only in its first season.

The PLL is doing something novel and unique. It's never going to be the NFL or NHL or MLB so why try to mirror those strategies? Rabil is charismatic and has tremendous influence with younger fans, while also having entrepreneurial and investment experience. The question is never going to be: Are we drawing large enough crowds? But instead: Are we getting enough interaction online and enough eyeballs to continue to generate ad revenue, merchandise sales,etc. The viewership is an issue, but remember this thing has been around for a very short time and has made tremendous strides in growing and professionalizing the game. I think the real problem the league is going to face is getting more players. 6 teams with already full rosters makes it tough to add through a draft, so they'll need to add more teams if the model continues to prove itself out.

[bearlaxfan]

Is the barnstorming the long-term plan? Because I don't see that working for a team sport for long. The league's better player deals will keep the talent coming, but even Marianas Trench deep pockets want to see payback eventually.

And can we give props to MLL? Much criticism is valid, but the league survived the dotcom recession right at its birth, and the Great Recession a decade ago. Something was right about it.

[d3commenter]

Is the barnstorming the long-term plan? Because I don't see that working for a team sport for long. The league's better player deals will keep the talent coming, but even Marianas Trench deep pockets want to see payback eventually.

And can we give props to MLL? Much criticism is valid, but the league survived the dotcom recession right at its birth, and the Great Recession a decade ago. Something was right about it.

But something is also very wrong if essentially all of the top talent left the league the first chance they got at something new, no? Rob Pannell and Lyle Thompson can only carry so much weight for so long when the PLL is getting vastly more exposure

[youthathletics]

Is the barnstorming the long-term plan? Because I don't see that working for a team sport for long. The league's better player deals will keep the talent coming, but even Marianas Trench deep pockets want to see payback eventually.

And can we give props to MLL? Much criticism is valid, but the league survived the dotcom recession right at its birth, and the Great Recession a decade ago. Something was right about it.

But something is also very wrong if essentially all of the top talent left the league the first chance they got at something new, no? Rob Pannell and Lyle Thompson can only carry so much weight for so long when the PLL is getting vastly more exposure

Wow....just take a doody on the rest of the MLL players. Because Staats, Stanwick, Heacock, Willaims, Currier, Malloy, Cowley Grant Jr., Mark Matthews...just name a handful all suck. 3 of them including Pannell are Tewaaraton winners.

It is my understanding that it is in the PLL player contracts that they must promote on social media a certain amount per week? That's like a social media pyramid scheme, is it just so they can get paid or deduct their pay for not posting on social media?

[d3commenter]

Well I never said they sucked because that is obviously not true. The difference is that Pannell and Thompson are really the only MLL players who aggressively market themselves and that is exactly the value that the PLL gives their players - a platform to grow their brand and in turn grow the sport. Its impossible to argue that a vast majority of the talent in the MLL didn't jump ship almost immediately. And even those that weren't stars to begin with have gotten their names out there and are growing their personal brand and making the sport more accessible to a broader audience (see Jarrod Newman).

Its not perfect and theres a ton of room to grow, but the PLL has already had the highest viewed pro lacrosse games in history and is approaching something like million social media interactions weekly. Its nothing against the MLL players but the PLL is a much better platform for the sport on a professional level.

[Skullzrule]

I am shocked by the lack of patience others here seem to have with the PLL. Look at other professional leagues when they first began - I dont think any of them were selling out 60,000 seat stadiums in their first few weeks of existence. The PLL has consistently grown attendance and viewership week over week. This is likely a function of the superior product on the field and the vastly improved marketing and broadcast quality compared to the MLL. While far less people currently play lacrosse than other sports, the PLL is making lacrosse more accessible which will in turn grow the game. The MLL showed a clear lack of vision in marketing the product and has suffered decades of poor attendance, stagnant wages for players, and a non-existent television / social media presence. For those of you who doubt that the PLL will continue to receive funding - I believe they cleared the viewership hurdles that investors set for the entire season by week three. If they continue to outperform on the metrics that investors are valuing the business on then they will continue to receive additional funding. This increased funding can go towards expanding the league, increasing player wages, and continued investment in marketing. All of these factors will improve the league and continue to grow professional lacrosse. This will attract more and more fans.

[pcowlax]

Well I never said they sucked because that is obviously not true. The difference is that Pannell and Thompson are really the only MLL players who aggressively market themselves and that is exactly the value that the PLL gives their players - a platform to grow their brand and in turn grow the sport. Its impossible to argue that a vast majority of the talent in the MLL didn't jump ship almost immediately. And even those that weren't stars to begin with have gotten their names out there and are growing their personal brand and making the sport more accessible to a broader audience (see Jarrod Newman).

Its not perfect and theres a ton of room to grow, but the PLL has already had the highest viewed pro lacrosse games in history and is approaching something like million social media interactions weekly. Its nothing against the MLL players but the PLL is a much better platform for the sport on a professional level.

Some interesting stuff, and then you said the NBA is quickly becoming the most popular league in the country. This is so ludicrously, insanely wrong that it obviated anything else you have to say. If you just read ESPN, who is desperate to pump up the sport they televise you may think this with 5 articles a day on LeBron but the worst rated NFL games trounce NBA finals games. The NBA is it’s own niche sport, albeit a much bigger niche. Lacrosse will never be a big time TV event but to maximize what they can do they need to consolidate. There are 2-3 different leagues trying to be an NFL off season alternative. None will make it but they would stand a much better chance if there was just one. Understanding the financial and emotional attachments the players and management have to each league and the, very modest, MLL fan bases, it is foolish to try to build out a sport that is unknown to much of the country with 2 leagues playing at the same time cannibalizing and competing vs each other. One league, 8-10 teams, is their best chance for now.

[Wheels]

The PLL product - on-field, TV, social media - is better than the MLL, which looks like it's really struggling. If not for existing contracts, you have to think that the Pannell's, Thompson's, and Heacock's of the MLL would have gone to the PLL anyway.

The point about Rabill's fake-it/make-it is a good point. The emphasis on "impressions" is smoke and mirrors. An impression isn't a person. A single person can watch a clip dozens of times and be counted as dozens of impressions. Rabill specifically talks about impressions as opposed to engagements (likes, shares, retweets, etc.) for a reason.

My son won't watch many MLL games because the video quality isn't so hot. He'll watch every PLL game on NBCSN. I don't know if the tour model is sustainable (my inclination is it won't...people like to identify with places...lacrosse is a team sport unlike NASCAR, so at some point community will become important). Rabill has already said that the tour model might be temporary. Temporary until the MLL folds or merges. What the tour model has given Rabill is data.

Drawing 8-10K in MLS-sized stadiums in the future with a city-based model with PLL's product is a decent future. The MLL people knew innovation was coming, and they poo-pooed it.

[HopFan16]

It is my understanding that it is in the PLL player contracts that they must promote on social media a certain amount per week? That's like a social media pyramid scheme, is it just so they can get paid or deduct their pay for not posting on social media?

I don't know if this is true, but even if it is, having to post on social media—which most of these guys are doing anyway—is a small price to pay considering they are all getting paid significantly more and actually have employee benefits, unlike in the MLL. Being active on social media is good for the players too, not just for the league. The higher the profile, the easier time players will have with their camps/clinics/endorsements/coaching opportunities/etc. There's no scheme. It's to the benefit of everyone involved: the players, the league, and especially the fans.

[Henpecked]

This is really an interesting conversation. I think Wheels is right when he says that the tour model gave them data. And that will be the most important thing moving forward if they intend to have long-term success.

If the touring model is no longer economically viable over time, they will know the best markets to build actual city-based franchises.

Good points all around.

[oldjayfan]

Is the barnstorming the long-term plan? Because I don't see that working for a team sport for long. The league's better player deals will keep the talent coming, but even Marianas Trench deep pockets want to see payback eventually.

And can we give props to MLL? Much criticism is valid, but the league survived the dotcom recession right at its birth, and the Great Recession a decade ago. Something was right about it.

But something is also very wrong if essentially all of the top talent left the league the first chance they got at something new, no? Rob Pannell and Lyle Thompson can only carry so much weight for so long when the PLL is getting vastly more exposure

They left for "ownership" of the new league...oh, and more money; we'll see how long that money lasts...

[d3commenter]

Well I never said they sucked because that is obviously not true. The difference is that Pannell and Thompson are really the only MLL players who aggressively market themselves and that is exactly the value that the PLL gives their players - a platform to grow their brand and in turn grow the sport. Its impossible to argue that a vast majority of the talent in the MLL didn't jump ship almost immediately. And even those that weren't stars to begin with have gotten their names out there and are growing their personal brand and making the sport more accessible to a broader audience (see Jarrod Newman).

Its not perfect and theres a ton of room to grow, but the PLL has already had the highest viewed pro lacrosse games in history and is approaching something like million social media interactions weekly. Its nothing against the MLL players but the PLL is a much better platform for the sport on a professional level.

Some interesting stuff, and then you said the NBA is quickly becoming the most popular league in the country. This is so ludicrously, insanely wrong that it obviated anything else you have to say. If you just read ESPN, who is desperate to pump up the sport they televise you may think this with 5 articles a day on LeBron but the worst rated NFL games trounce NBA finals games. The NBA is it’s own niche sport, albeit a much bigger niche. Lacrosse will never be a big time TV event but to maximize what they can do they need to consolidate. There are 2-3 different leagues trying to be an NFL off season alternative. None will make it but they would stand a much better chance if there was just one. Understanding the financial and emotional attachments the players and management have to each league and the, very modest, MLL fan bases, it is foolish to try to build out a sport that is unknown to much of the country with 2 leagues playing at the same time cannibalizing and competing vs each other. One league, 8-10 teams, is their best chance for now.

1) In terms of revenue, the NBA is growing nearly 3x as fast as the NFL. You're not wrong that NFL ratings dwarf the NBA right now, but that's why I said "becoming." And we are also in an environment where TV ratings simply aren't the only metric. It is far from niche - basketball is the third largest sport internationally with billions of fans and the NBA is the most popular pro basketball league in the world. The NBA does a far better job marketing its players and this has led to rapid growth that doesn't seem to be slowing.

2) Unsure how increased media coverage of a sport isn't correlated to popularity - again, TV ratings for games simply don't tell the whole story (but I concede that they are desperate for Lebron content), but again, Lebron is the most famous athlete in the country and arguably the world...and he plays in the NBA

3) It is foolish to NOT try to build out a sport we all want to see grow and the PLL is doing a far better job in one year than the MLL has in 20. I think its clear the cannibalization is only going in one direction. The whole point is that there aren't financial and emotional attachments to the MLL and that is what the PLL is trying to build. Its a little discouraging to see so many who are resistant to something that has great potential to be very positive for the sport

[laxjuris]

Maybe because I'm getting old, but I have a hard time connecting to a league with teams that do not have geographic ties. I've watched portions of some of the games, but I can't get too worked up since don't care whether "Archers" or "Chaos" wins the game.