Next Big D1

[FannOLax]

The Ivy tournament drew significant attention to lacrosse at Columbia even without that being its original intent. The current AD fully backed hosting the tournament and has shown more openness to a team than either of his predecessors.

Glad to hear that!

[QuakerSouth]

1) Sounds like an AD and admin that is afraid of its own shadow. Other comments/clarifications on Title IX recently make the AD's reasoning sound...questionable.

2) Space? C'mon, man! Their space needs to be programmed better. Also, they've got a $10 BIL endowment, they can't buy another piece of land somewhere to expand? And you're right about Penn; they acquired more land. It was terrible. It was polluted. It needed complete remediation. They put something like $42 mil just into removing bad material, replacing it with good material, and regrading. Thats exclusive of the land acquisition cost. Hows it look now? Absolutely beautiful.

Columbia has the $$$ to do something similar. They just decided its not that important.

3) Sports endowment? More wishful thinking that is nothing more than another smokescreen. Sponsor the program and someone will invariably step up. If not, so what. Thats part of your athletic program. All this talk about having things "endowed" is embarrassing for them. Again, $10 BIL endowment. That money has already been given/donated. Spend/invest it in your university!

It is so shortsighted on Columbia's part. Bigger picture: where will many of those lacrosse players work after graduation? Wall St, maybe? If they look like other programs...yeah. They'd more than get the money back over time. Its called a good investment, but their vision is too myopic. A shame, really.

[OCanada]

What you are ignoring is an endowment has two parts: restricted and unrestricted.

Donors often attach restrictions on how their gift can be used. Those funds are restricted. So with a man endowment of 10 B. How much is restricted?? And if that amount how much can be used fir any one purpose.

The unrestricted endowment can be spent at Will but donors, large ones at least, will want to see a report on how the money was spent.

To determine how much they actually have to spend you need to start doing some subtraction.

So how much do they really have to spend?

With the pot of money left what are the universities priorities? What is the unfunded portion of the physical plant/ capital budget?

What are the budget numbers and what she’s there balance sheet look like?

Of the portion available for use how much is liquid and how much illiquid?

For some reason I believe it likely lacrosse ranks below other competing projects

[FannOLax]

From the NCAA web site:
Q. How is Title IX applied to athletics?

Athletics programs are considered educational programs and activities. There are three basic parts of Title IX as it applies to athletics:

Participation: Title IX requires that women and men be provided equitable opportunities to participate in sports. Title IX does not require institutions to offer identical sports but an equal opportunity to play;
Scholarships: Title IX requires that female and male student-athletes receive athletics scholarship dollars proportional to their participation; and
Other benefits: Title IX requires the equal treatment of female and male student-athletes in the provisions of: (a) equipment and supplies; (b) scheduling of games and practice times; (c) travel and daily allowance/per diem; (d) access to tutoring; (e) coaching, (f) locker rooms, practice and competitive facilities; (g) medical and training facilities and services; (h) housing and dining facilities and services; (i) publicity and promotions; (j) support services and (k) recruitment of student-athletes.
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/inc ... -questions

We see Title IX invoked pretty often on this board.... for Columbia and other Ivies, scholarships are not an issue, and I think points a) through k) shouldn't be real impediments. So, we're left with "equitable opportunities." Men's D1 football teams tend to have at least 70 players, sometimes more. If Penn State, Michigan and Ohio State can have both men's lacrosse and their massive football teams, it would seem to me that Title IX is being used as an excuse but is not an insurmountable impediment to men's lacrosse (provided that the university offers plenty of women's athletic teams). Has any school been sued for, and stopped from, adding men's lacrosse (or men's soccer or tennis or whatever) on Title IX grounds? Since Title IX came into effect, lots of women's sports have been added, but is Title IX really a valid reason not to add men's lacrosse??

[Makeit8Lax]

1) Sounds like an AD and admin that is afraid of its own shadow. Other comments/clarifications on Title IX recently make the AD's reasoning sound...questionable.

2) Space? C'mon, man! Their space needs to be programmed better. Also, they've got a $10 BIL endowment, they can't buy another piece of land somewhere to expand? And you're right about Penn; they acquired more land. It was terrible. It was polluted. It needed complete remediation. They put something like $42 mil just into removing bad material, replacing it with good material, and regrading. Thats exclusive of the land acquisition cost. Hows it look now? Absolutely beautiful.

Columbia has the $$$ to do something similar. They just decided its not that important.

3) Sports endowment? More wishful thinking that is nothing more than another smokescreen. Sponsor the program and someone will invariably step up. If not, so what. Thats part of your athletic program. All this talk about having things "endowed" is embarrassing for them. Again, $10 BIL endowment. That money has already been given/donated. Spend/invest it in your university!

It is so shortsighted on Columbia's part. Bigger picture: where will many of those lacrosse players work after graduation? Wall St, maybe? If they look like other programs...yeah. They'd more than get the money back over time. Its called a good investment, but their vision is too myopic. A shame, really.

Wholeheartedly agree on all of your points. The AD from point 1 told me his Title IX objection to my face during my freshman year at Columbia in 2004. He was afraid of ant change. Since then the entire Baker Field complex has converted to turf allowing for year-round use of fields that were previously closed to let grass rest. If more space is needed there’s a parking lot/car wash across the street and ample money to buy it up. My Make It 8 grroup, which was spurred into existence by alumni asking why we didn’t have a team participating in a lacrosse tournament we were hosting, has been making very similar arguments to Columbia about investing in a team, quality of lacrosse student-athletes, and potential for investment payback many times over. The current administration has been willing to listen so far, which is an improvement.

We are looking for all the support we can get to Make It 8. You all are welcome to join our e-mail list; PM me if you would like more information. Btw, we were handing it Make It 8 T-shirts at the Ivy tournament and cleaned out 250 shirts (50 in each of Columbia blue the four qualifying men’s ten colors, including Penn red and blue) in about half an hour. One found its way to our AD another got on TV with Quint and Carc during halftime of the first semifinal. All three appreciated them!

[Makeit8Lax]

What you are ignoring is an endowment has two parts: restricted and unrestricted.

Donors often attach restrictions on how their gift can be used. Those funds are restricted. So with a man endowment of 10 B. How much is restricted?? And if that amount how much can be used fir any one purpose.

The unrestricted endowment can be spent at Will but donors, large ones at least, will want to see a report on how the money was spent.

To determine how much they actually have to spend you need to start doing some subtraction.

So how much do they really have to spend?

With the pot of money left what are the universities priorities? What is the unfunded portion of the physical plant/ capital budget?

What are the budget numbers and what she’s there balance sheet look like?

Of the portion available for use how much is liquid and how much illiquid?

For some reason I believe it likely lacrosse ranks below other competing projects

The Columbia/Make It 8 endowment is a restricted use fund. I helped create it.

[OCanada]

How large is it ?

[pcowlax]

From the NCAA web site:
Q. How is Title IX applied to athletics?

Athletics programs are considered educational programs and activities. There are three basic parts of Title IX as it applies to athletics:

Participation: Title IX requires that women and men be provided equitable opportunities to participate in sports. Title IX does not require institutions to offer identical sports but an equal opportunity to play;
Scholarships: Title IX requires that female and male student-athletes receive athletics scholarship dollars proportional to their participation; and
Other benefits: Title IX requires the equal treatment of female and male student-athletes in the provisions of: (a) equipment and supplies; (b) scheduling of games and practice times; (c) travel and daily allowance/per diem; (d) access to tutoring; (e) coaching, (f) locker rooms, practice and competitive facilities; (g) medical and training facilities and services; (h) housing and dining facilities and services; (i) publicity and promotions; (j) support services and (k) recruitment of student-athletes.
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/inc ... -questions

We see Title IX invoked pretty often on this board.... for Columbia and other Ivies, scholarships are not an issue, and I think points a) through k) shouldn't be real impediments. So, we're left with "equitable opportunities." Men's D1 football teams tend to have at least 70 players, sometimes more. If Penn State, Michigan and Ohio State can have both men's lacrosse and their massive football teams, it would seem to me that Title IX is being used as an excuse but is not an insurmountable impediment to men's lacrosse (provided that the university offers plenty of women's athletic teams). Has any school been sued for, and stopped from, adding men's lacrosse (or men's soccer or tennis or whatever) on Title IX grounds? Since Title IX came into effect, lots of women's sports have been added, but is Title IX really a valid reason not to add men's lacrosse??

Not adding anything to this discussion but, in seeing that all nicely laid out, (c) is why I always laugh at people who think that schools are going to start paying their football and men's basketball players. No way on earth that flies with Title IX, irrespective of the obvious trueism that it is those programs that bring money into athletic programs while all others are typically money losers. If they pay anyone they will need to pay everyone, the girl's volleyball player riding the pine the same as Baker Mayfield (this is formally paying of course, these guys are all paid under the table now anyway).

[Makeit8Lax]

How large is it ?

Currently $53k, raised in about 4 months exclusively from alumni of the club team (which go back to the class of 1966). We are aiming for much more.

[OCanada]

As I recall at one time Cornell was trying to endow it’s lacrosse program. Last I heard the finally got the coach’s position endowed but not the team. This was quite some time ago. Anyone have an update?

Assuming a return of 5% and a salary of 200 k it would take about 4-5 million. I had one AD tell me he would want 5 million to do it

[Makeit8Lax]

As I recall at one time Cornell was trying to endow it’s lacrosse program. Last I heard the finally got the coach’s position endowed but not the team. This was quite some time ago. Anyone have an update?

Assuming a return of 5% and a salary of 200 k it would take about 4-5 million. I had one AD tell me he would want 5 million to do it

Those numbers sound about right. We are looking to fully endow the team and not just a coaching position. Not sure if Cornell has yet succeeded in endowing the team.

[OCanada]

Thx for the information

[Wheels]

Not adding anything to this discussion but, in seeing that all nicely laid out, (c) is why I always laugh at people who think that schools are going to start paying their football and men's basketball players. No way on earth that flies with Title IX, irrespective of the obvious trueism that it is those programs that bring money into athletic programs while all others are typically money losers. If they pay anyone they will need to pay everyone, the girl's volleyball player riding the pine the same as Baker Mayfield (this is formally paying of course, these guys are all paid under the table now anyway).

When (not if) the day comes where players from football and basketball (men's and women's) to get paid, those sports will have broken free from the NCAA. The teams will still be affiliated with the universities, but they will operate like a true minor league. Scholarships will be tied to certain academic standing criteria but will be paid for by the private entity that is the league (akin to an academy where players get sent to a school). Players will unionize. There will be a commissioner. Title IX will no longer play a role in it. Non-P5 schools will continue to operate under the auspices of the NCAA, as will non-revenue sports.

The NCAA can forestall this by allowing players of any sport to make money off of their likenesses or via appearances. That money could go into a trust like the Olympic model. Scholarships can still cover tuition, room, board, living expenses, and fees. But at least any player from any sport could make money without the NCAA "paying" players.

[HowieT3]

Hmmmm, okay, I guess the location of the Ivy League Tournament these past few years was more about New York and Manhattan than about Columbia lacrosse. Attendance these past two years was good (or at least better than when it was hosted by regular-season champ), but not great. How about men's lax at Wake Forest? Virginia Tech? James Madison U?

VPI and JMU already have women's teams which is usually an indicator that it will be unlikely they'll add a men's team. VPI had a men's team and canned it after the 1986 season.

[Can Opener]

As I recall at one time Cornell was trying to endow it’s lacrosse program. Last I heard the finally got the coach’s position endowed but not the team. This was quite some time ago. Anyone have an update?

Assuming a return of 5% and a salary of 200 k it would take about 4-5 million. I had one AD tell me he would want 5 million to do it

Those numbers sound about right. We are looking to fully endow the team and not just a coaching position. Not sure if Cornell has yet succeeded in endowing the team.

I’m sure that you are politically savvy enough not to make this a cornerstone of your pitch, but the real solution is for Columbia to sunset the football program. The team has produced only 5 winning Ivy records since 1956. Would anyone truly miss this program? Does anyone at BU or UVM wish they still had their football teams? Eliminating football would instantly provide the facilities and funding for men’’s lacrosse with $$$ to spare.

[genesrfree]

" Men's D1 football teams tend to have at least 70 players, sometimes more." As an FYI, D1 football programs are allowed 85 scholarship athletes, the big programs, like Alabama, OSU etc. will have well over 100 on the roster with walk-ons. D1AA (FCS) are allowed 63 scholarships.

[Makeit8Lax]

As I recall at one time Cornell was trying to endow it’s lacrosse program. Last I heard the finally got the coach’s position endowed but not the team. This was quite some time ago. Anyone have an update?

Assuming a return of 5% and a salary of 200 k it would take about 4-5 million. I had one AD tell me he would want 5 million to do it

Those numbers sound about right. We are looking to fully endow the team and not just a coaching position. Not sure if Cornell has yet succeeded in endowing the team.

I’m sure that you are politically savvy enough not to make this a cornerstone of your pitch, but the real solution is for Columbia to sunset the football program. The team has produced only 5 winning Ivy records since 1956. Would anyone truly miss this program? Does anyone at BU or UVM wish they still had their football teams? Eliminating football would instantly provide the facilities and funding for men’’s lacrosse with $$$ to spare.

Our two wealthiest alumni and biggest athletic benefactors are former football players. We will need their support to Make It 8. And Ivy football is not going anywhere regardless of declining attendance or lack of success by individual teams.

[QuakerSouth]

^ This.

[cltlax]

Hmmmm, okay, I guess the location of the Ivy League Tournament these past few years was more about New York and Manhattan than about Columbia lacrosse. Attendance these past two years was good (or at least better than when it was hosted by regular-season champ), but not great. How about men's lax at Wake Forest? Virginia Tech? James Madison U?

VPI and JMU already have women's teams which is usually an indicator that it will be unlikely they'll add a men's team. VPI had a men's team and canned it after the 1986 season.

The Wake Forest AD indicated it would be too expensive to add lacrosse. Maybe with the launch of the ACC network?

[laxpert]

Those empowered by Title IX were devastated when the Bush administration allowed Prong 3 “surveys” to prove compliance versus Prong 1 “quotas” and they rejoiced when Obama rescinded them. The number of complaints rose significantly with the Obama action but it’s difficult to say how many of those were based on athletics since the law is more encompassing than sport alone.

Isn’t saying there’s been no legal action due to adding a Men’s lacrosse team a specious argument since no one has added only Men’s lacrosse? After the Franklin vs Gwenett Schools decision allowed punitive damages for a T9 violation it’s takes a lot of gumption to add sports when you’re not proportional.

There is a small ray of hope with the NCAA Committee on Women’s Athletics recommendation that all three divisions add Acrobatics Tumbling to the Emerging Sports for Women program. Minimal cost to add with current teams averaging a roster of 40. They also added Women’s Wrestling to the list.

On the other side of the ledger is Harvard Business School professor Clay Christensen prediction that up to 25 percent of current colleges will close or merge in the next decade. It’s based on his disruptive innovation theory along with a broken business model. More of concern for DII and DIII programs than D1.

Edit: Acrobatics and Tumbling was formerly known as Competitive Cheer.