The Nation's Financial Condition

[a fan]

I understand. What I meant was: clearly you CAN have trade allies, in the general sense.

Didn't mean to take you round and round on this small point, sorry.....

[old salt]

https://www.euractiv.com/section/econom ... r-tariffs/

Currently, European auto imports face tariffs of 2.5% to access the US market, while the EU imposes a 10% duty to American exporters.

[a fan]

Yeah. I did it again. I don't mean the US with the EU. I mean, the countries WITHIN the EU are trade allies with each other. So you CAN have trade allies.

Sorry. Really.

[tech37]

Fine. What seems to be lost on you and others is that China is finally being stood up to.

The small hands overcompensating response of the American male Republican. "Act tough, and that fixes everything". BS, cheap shot line...and once again, I'm not a Republican.

I'm ok with standing up to China. I told you---several times now---the way to do that, and the way that full grown adults at the big boy table would do what you are asking. You don't want to hear it, so you keep saying I don't want to stand up to China. Sure, you're great at second-guessing and framing your positions from hindsight...good for you. The basic point you still don't seem to realize is China's bad acts will never change until they're called out for it... they've been called out and that alone is huge. So you're the guy who is now going to tell everyone the proper way it should have been done As I've said before, Trump's methods are far from perfect, but compared to past admin's (and I don't just mean Obama's) disregard and acquiescence regarding China, if nothing else, he's certainly on the right track. And I don't believe you're "ok with standing up to China." What a whimpy, unconvincing way to state it. And no, I'm not a tough guy, but I am angry...what listening/thinking person isn't these days?

[MDlaxfan76]

Fine. What seems to be lost on you and others is that China is finally being stood up to.

The small hands overcompensating response of the American male Republican. "Act tough, and that fixes everything". BS, cheap shot line...and once again, I'm not a Republican.

I'm ok with standing up to China. I told you---several times now---the way to do that, and the way that full grown adults at the big boy table would do what you are asking. You don't want to hear it, so you keep saying I don't want to stand up to China. Sure, you're great at second-guessing and framing your positions from hindsight...good for you. The basic point you still don't seem to realize is China's bad acts will never change until they're called out for it... they've been called out and that alone is huge. So you're the guy who is now going to tell everyone the proper way it should have been done As I've said before, Trump's methods are far from perfect, but compared to past admin's (and I don't just mean Obama's) disregard and acquiescence regarding China, if nothing else, he's certainly on the right track. And I don't believe you're "ok with standing up to China." What a whimpy, unconvincing way to state it. And no, I'm not a tough guy, but I am angry...what listening/thinking person isn't these days?

No, you're not "a Republican", you are a Trumpist.
Too many of our fellow posters equate Trumpist to Republican.
Not all Republicans are Trumpists.

Quite a few Trumpists are non-GOP angry white guys.
You're in that group of Trumpists.

Problem is that so many Republican pols are totally cowed by the Trumpists, and lots of R voters (those who haven't left the party) have bought into the 'team' aspect of beating Dems. So, it's understandable to equate Trumpist with Republican, but it's more accurate to just say Trumpist.

And yeah, for Trumpists it's all about talking tough, but in reality that's just weakness and resentment. 'small hands'.

You're giving a fan a hard time about actually detailing what he thinks would have been the right course to take with China, in detail?
As if he has no right to that opinion?

He was responding to that specific question.

And then you turn around and hold yourself as capable of actually judging that Trump is 'on the right track'? But offer no actual explanation, nor real refutation of a single aspect of a fan's argument?

Come on, that's just knee jerk Trumpist mewling. Try again.

[tech37]

No, you're not "a Republican", you are a Trumpist.
Too many of our fellow posters equate Trumpist to Republican.
Not all Republicans are Trumpists.
Give everyone a break and stop being a jerk mdlax. Just because I agree with certain policies does not make me or anyone else a "Trumpist." And just because I push back on the idiot "resistance" does not make me a "Trumpist" either. Many times since 2016 I have criticized Trump, his tweeting, and his rhetoric.

Your thinking is incredibly shallow at times. You show your lack of understanding and nuance as you continue to lump everyone and anyone who doesn't agree with your restricted view of things as "Trumpist."

Quite a few Trumpists are non-GOP angry white guys.
Sorry for being white. Unlike you, I don't feel guilty about it. You should seek therapy.

[MDlaxfan76]

No, you're not "a Republican", you are a Trumpist.
Too many of our fellow posters equate Trumpist to Republican.
Not all Republicans are Trumpists.
Give everyone a break and stop being a jerk mdlax. Just because I agree with certain policies does not make me or anyone else a "Trumpist." And just because I push back on the idiot "resistance" does not make me a "Trumpist" either. Many times since 2016 I have criticized Trump, his tweeting, and his rhetoric.

Your thinking is incredibly shallow at times. You show your lack of understanding and nuance as you continue to lump everyone and anyone who doesn't agree with your restricted view of things as "Trumpist."

Quite a few Trumpists are non-GOP angry white guys.
Sorry for being white. Unlike you, I don't feel guilty about it. You should seek therapy.

Really? You're not a Trumpist???
You've indeed had me fooled, 'shallow' as that may be.
You sure do repeat a lot of Trumpist memes and tropes as if you actually believe and agree with the BS.

On 'white guilt', here's how I see it: Anyone who thinks that being against white supremacy/white nationalism is therefore best described as you "feel guilty" "for being white" is simply revealing that they, themselves, are indeed a bigot.

I doubt you think of yourself that way, but when you go to the knee jerk accusatory trope of 'white guilt' you reveal that form of bigotry in yourself. (This is a choice, you don't have to dig the hole deeper).

But let's take the accusation seriously for a moment, not just a slur in and of itself.

Do I believe there is 'white privilege'? Yup.

Do I believe that there's been generations of damage done to people of color by prejudice, including through governmental as well as private action? Yup.

Do I think that I, as an American, support addressing these issues more forthrightly than may be comfortable for some? Yup.

As an actual 'conservative' however, I believe that we need to be careful about HOW we address these issues such that we avoid unintended consequences and that we utilize our resources efficiently and effectively to do the most social just good in reality, not just wallpaper.

[tech37]

On 'white guilt', here's how I see it: Anyone who thinks that being against white supremacy/white nationalism is therefore best described as you "feel guilty" "for being white" is simply revealing that they, themselves, are indeed a bigot.

Perfect, right out of the a fan strawman playbook. So now you're calling me a bigot even though you don't know me at all? What an insufferable A HOLE...I'm sure you've heard that before

[MDlaxfan76]

On 'white guilt', here's how I see it: Anyone who thinks that being against white supremacy/white nationalism is therefore best described as you "feel guilty" "for being white" is simply revealing that they, themselves, are indeed a bigot.

Perfect, right out of the a fan strawman playbook. So now you're calling me a bigot even though you don't know me at all? What an insufferable A HOLE...I'm sure you've heard that before

No, I'm saying that anyone that uses the white guilt trope reveals the form of their own bigotry.

We are all bigoted to some extent, the question is whether we face it and battle it in ourselves.

That's up to you.

But if you want to go into a defensive, angry crouch, and throw more insults at me, I get it.

[HooDat]

Yeah. I did it again. I don't mean the US with the EU. I mean, the countries WITHIN the EU are trade allies with each other. So you CAN have trade allies.

I would suggest that you can have trade counter-parties, with whom you have agreeable contractual relationships. But you are fooling yourself (and we as a nation often expose our naivete in doing so) if you think that any trade counter-party is going to stand beside you when it is not somehow in their mutual best interest.

But the topic raises an interesting point around what to do about China. EVERYONE knows that they have been trade cheats as long as we have been alive. I guess if you want to be kind you could say they simply play by a different set of rules than N America and Northern Europe. For example - for decades you couldn't even get financing for projects that used Chinese steel because it was never at the spec it was supposed to be - the quality was actually dangerous. The Chinese had to set up banks to make loans to projects that would use their steel in order to prop up the industry....

Anyway - let's say the US were to do as you suggest afan, and we got together with the EU, the UK, Mexico, Canada, and Japan to restrict China until they complied with our demands vis-a-vis free trade. If we really wanted to get serious we would work on S. Korea and our allies in the middle east. That would certainly get their attention - because it would be an outright act of war. China would be painted into a corner. And they would no alternative to responding with hostility, in response to a hostile act on our part.

The path we are going down is disruptive, but not catastrophic. It is mostly a political gesture that allows Trump to campaign on "getting tough on trade and trying to bring back blue collar jobs"

Of course it is BS.

More importantly, while all these types of policy ideas look "great" on paper, they (like all economist musings) tend to under-account for the impact on real lives of real people who are losing their real homes and end up addicted to meth or opiates......

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://amp.scmp.com/comment/insight-op ... good-china



https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/10/07/ch ... -trade-xi/

[a fan]

BS, cheap shot line...and once again, I'm not a Republican.

For a guy who likes to rip on posters for misrepresenting opinions, you sure don't mind doing the same thing. Show me where I wrote that you were a Republican. I know you're not a Republican.

If you don't want me to imply that your thinking is meatheaded, stop confusing the means with the goal, and stop blindly following Trump. Standing up to China isn't a goal, even though you sure seem to think it is. It's merely a tool. What good does acting tough do if it doesn't attain your goal of changing China's behavior? My answer is: it makes dumb, thoughtless Republican voters happy. It's why Trump keeps doing it.

So Republican voters are thrilled that Trump "stood up to" Iran, N Korea, and now China. They don't care----even a little---- if we have moved the football one single inch closer to the goal line with each of those problem countries. It's meatheaded, and confuses a tool in the toolbox (talking tough) with a goal (getting another country to change its behavior).

Sure, you're great at second-guessing and framing your positions from hindsight...good for you.

You're not this stupid, just stop it.

I didn't second guess diddly. I told you MONTHS AGO what would happen, and exactly what would play out. What did you say then? Oh yeah...you called me Mr. Instant Gratification. Now here you are telling me I'm second guessing. What a joke. If your ability to listen to other view points is really this bad, you might as well switch your name to Bandito and get it over with.

The basic point you still don't seem to realize is China's bad acts will never change until they're called out for it... they've been called out and that alone is huge.

That's not even a part of the discussion.. Great. Trump called them out. The question today, as it was months ago, is what is Trump doing to achieve his goal, while at the same time doing everything possible to minimize the damage done to Americans and the American economy?

When I ask these questions, you tune out. And when you do that, you come across as a selfish 2019 Republican tw*t: "I got mine, bollocks to everyone else". If you got laid off over this lack of economic planning, you'd be singing a different tune. I don't know what happened to Americans that we arrived so very quickly at this "every man for himself" attitude, but here we are.

So you're the guy who is now going to tell everyone the proper way it should have been done

I told you how we should do it months ago, and I'm telling you how we should do it now. You and Old Salt are all over other posters when they complain about something Trump does, without offering another path. And now that Ive laid out a better way---several times in, in fact---you're here giving me grief yet again. It's becoming very clear that the only opinion you're going to accept here is: "hooray Trump".

As for telling you the way the Trade War should be executed, I sure as *hit could do a better job at it than the idiot you're following without question. Anyone with a leadership position in business could do a better job than Trump.

Here's a simple question: we are on the path toward a Cold War with China. As in: no trading at all. You're such a fanboy of Trump being on the "right track".....tell me: what's Trump doing to ensure that guys like me can have access to the things I'm currently getting from China? What's he doing to make sure that companies who sell things to China have new buyers in other markets?

When you realize the answer is: nothing. Get back to me.

If you're unfortunate enough to get laid off over this trade war, i think you'll finally understand why I'm critical, and why I'm concerned for my fellow Americans. So long as you have your job and a roof over your head, you think this Trade War is a game. I'm glad for you that you're insulated from Trump's decisions. As for the rest of us, we're hoping Trump finds a better way. Every single trade group I'm a part of is busy petitioning various government reps to help us access markets other than China.

Our pleas are falling on deaf ears. This SHOULD bother you. Obviously, it doesn't.

And I don't believe you're "ok with standing up to China." What a whimpy, unconvincing way to state it.

At the big boy table, we outsmart our opponents. Talking tough is nothing more than bluster from weak opponents with low self-esteem. Notice how much Iran and Kim Il does it? Now why would we follow their lead?

[a fan]

I would suggest that you can have trade counter-parties, with whom you have agreeable contractual relationships. But you are fooling yourself (and we as a nation often expose our naivete in doing so) if you think that any trade counter-party is going to stand beside you when it is not somehow in their mutual best interest.

If you believe this, Trump's next job is to drop out of the WTO. If we're the only country that's going to hold China to the rules, what's the point to the WTO?

But the topic raises an interesting point around what to do about China. EVERYONE knows that they have been trade cheats as long as we have been alive. I guess if you want to be kind you could say they simply play by a different set of rules than N America and Northern Europe. For example - for decades you couldn't even get financing for projects that used Chinese steel because it was never at the spec it was supposed to be - the quality was actually dangerous. The Chinese had to set up banks to make loans to projects that would use their steel in order to prop up the industry....

You still can't count on Chinese equipment, glass bottles, alloys, and parts for all of the above. We have nothing here that is intentionally Chinese.

Anyway - let's say the US were to do as you suggest afan, and we got together with the EU, the UK, Mexico, Canada, and Japan to restrict China until they complied with our demands vis-a-vis free trade. If we really wanted to get serious we would work on S. Korea and our allies in the middle east. That would certainly get their attention - because it would be an outright act of war. China would be painted into a corner. And they would no alternative to responding with hostility, in response to a hostile act on our part.

Missed the target, hit the tree, IMHO.

In other words: what makes you think we're not backing China into a corner now? No, it's not nearly aggressive as a coalition----but are you SURE that Chinese leaders aren't feeling backed into a corner?

Can you guarantee China won't simply take what Trump is doing as an act of aggression, and simply stop trading with altogether. None of you considered this when all this started: namely, that China won't back down, and American can't "win" this Trade War.

And yet China just stopped purchasing American Agriculture. This is how Trade Wars work...ratcheting up the pressure. You gents need to prepare yourselves for a worst case, Cold War outcome. i hope that doesn't happen, but with each passing day....

The path we are going down is disruptive, but not catastrophic. It is mostly a political gesture that allows Trump to campaign on "getting tough on trade and trying to bring back blue collar jobs"

This is the same sentiment tech37 has. All this means is that you have a job, and no one you know has lost their job over this. I know several. If/when this happens to you or someone you know, you'll be whistling a different tune.

Of course we don't HAVE to trade with China. But all the shoes have yet to drop over this war. It may (but hopefully not) be far worse than you are expecting. And America is already leveraged to the hilt.

[HooDat]

This is the same sentiment tech37 has. All this means is that you have a job, and no one you know has lost their job over this. I know several. If/when this happens to you or someone you know, you'll be whistling a different tune.

you completely, and unfairly, skipped over the very next point I made:

More importantly, while all these types of policy ideas look "great" on paper, they (like all economist musings) tend to under-account for the impact on real lives of real people who are losing their real homes and end up addicted to meth or opiates......

and yes, I have a job, but no, my job is being (and will continue to be) negatively impacted by the trade war crap.

Can you guarantee China won't simply take what Trump is doing as an act of aggression, and simply stop trading with altogether. None of you considered this when all this started: namely, that China won't back down, and American can't "win" this Trade War.

- no one can guarantee anything. But I also am not defending Trump or a trade war - I was explaining why it is happening.

It is mostly a political gesture that allows Trump to campaign on "getting tough on trade and trying to bring back blue collar jobs"

Of course it is BS.

[a fan]

HooDat---I owe you an apology, I missed that sentence altogether. It was not intentional, and I'm sorry. I don't know how I misread your post and missed that sentence, but plainly I did..

I've admitted before that because I'm watching the direct effects of Trump's clumsy tweeted Trade War, I'm a bit touchy on this subject.

Sincere apologies.

[HooDat]

HooDat---I owe you an apology, I missed that sentence altogether. It was not intentional, and I'm sorry. I don't know how I misread your post and missed that sentence, but plainly I did..

I've admitted before that because I'm watching the direct effects of Trump's clumsy tweeted Trade War, I'm a bit touchy on this subject.

Sincere apologies.

no worries

[youthathletics]

Post not intended to draw you into another debate afan...just sharing what a handful of farmers in Iowa believe about the fight with China. https://www.instagram.com/p/B1CVlIgHpPT/

[a fan]

I can stay away from a debate, and instead talk about the farmers.

Ask them what they want the President to do.

You're watching an entire generation of Republican baby boomer farmers and their kids take the final step toward being died-in-the-wool socialists.

First step was Reagan signing the permanent bail out for farmers that is now known as the Farm Bill in the 80's.

Now farmers are back, and want more. They are now asking for protectionist tariffs from the Federal government to shield them from the international free market that's eating them alive.

FoxNation, Rush, Congressional Republicans are now---in a matter of a few short month----- apparently delighted to give farmers the protectionist tariffs that two generations of Republicans fought against.

Yet these folks think that non-gendered bathrooms are 'the big changes" in America.

My only comment is: they should have asked Obama for protectionist tariffs in his first term. Obama would have been OVERJOYED to give it to them.

[tech37]

Post not intended to draw you into another debate afan...just sharing what a handful of farmers in Iowa believe about the fight with China. https://www.instagram.com/p/B1CVlIgHpPT/

a fan claims that farmers he deals with are in trouble due to the "trade war" with China. How much of their trouble is due to adverse weather conditions rather than Trump admin trade policy?

And before you start with your "ivory castle" critique a fan, you should know I spent two years working on a dairy farm in upstate NY, earning little but learning a lot.

[old salt]

We've had ag subsidies & price supports since the depression. It's the only way our ag sector can survive.
When I was growing up, farmers could not survive without the soil bank program.
...but gotta have the endless argument anyway.