Sensible Gun Safety

[Typical Lax Dad]

A rancher kid is given a pellet gun upon birth and is slowly trained to use the big boys. Someone has to ensure the cows, sheep and horses are not prey. In high school most of my friends were rancher kids and most took over the ranch. Every truck had a rack with multiple guns and ammo under the seat.

But the rancher kids don't grow up around, own or use machine guns or sawed off shot guns. Because those have been effectively banned since the 1930s. They also don't grow up around flame throwers and rocket launchers.

We had the AR-15/big mag issue mostly handled from 94-04. Even freaking Reagan supported the ban!!!! Had we simply continued that reasonable policy (perhaps with some needed revisions), those ranch kids wouldn't have grown up around them and relatively few people would own them. Since the newest legal ARs would now be 25 years old.

Instead we dumbly re-opened that toothpaste tube in 2004, due to a bunch of NRA propaganda, hysteria and campaign contributions. Instead of having the AR issue become even smaller and smaller as more time passed, we started adding a million new ARs to the pile every year.

Beyond idiotic.

Rent out assault weapons at a range if that how one has "fun".... or use Virtual Reality.

[LandM]

You all might want to visit the west -yes they do have AR's and sawed off plus add an AK and M-16 for a gun salad. Step on the back porch and fire away - that is fun. Not trying to may light of this as it is a serious issue but they have them and they have fun with them. Rationale people having fun and causing no harm.

[DMac]

You don't have to go West to find that, you can find that with the country boys right around your parts. Yet a local Romulus boy had to go to California, where there are stricter gun laws, to get shot and killed. Calling hours are today and tomorrow.
It's about a whole lot more than the guns, you can bet that kid who grew up in Romulus grew up with a whole bunch of gun owners.

[LandM]

DMac,
I need to learn the functionality out here of the software - could you please PM me - I am hoping it is not a Schrader? Sorry if I violated any rules.
Thanks

[ggait]

You all might want to visit the west -yes they do have AR's and sawed off plus add an AK and M-16 for a gun salad.

LandM -- I know you like to drive the RV around out here from time to time. But I've lived out here for 20+ years. So I thought you'd be interested in my perspective.

Life was perfectly good and fun out here when ARs were federally banned from 1994 to 2004. All the hunters and other folks who just like shooting guns did just fine.

2012 wasn't so good. That's when the Aurora, CO movie theater got shot up. One crazy guy hit 58 people with gunfire, killing 12. And please don't forking tell me that you could do that with just any weapon (pistol or knife or baseball bat or IED or 3D printed gizmo). The shooter fired six rounds from a shotgun and 5 from a Glock pistol. And (surprise!!!) 65 from his AR-15 equipped with a 100 round drum (which thankfully finally jammed or it would have been even worse).

Of course the AR and the drum were banned up until 2004. But easily available from your local retail store in 2012. Oh well...

Hickenlooper was able to get a 15 round mag limit passed in 1993 after Aurora. And you know what, the gun folks out here (after a lot of whining at the time) are continuing to do just fine with that limit. Unfortunately, even in a sensible place like CO, a state assault weapons ban has been too hard to do. Once the toothpaste was loosed in 2004, it got very hard to put it back in.

Love Telluride by the way. Will be there in a few weeks.

Cheers.

[DMac]

Wonder if that would have happened if he had just had the gun but not the antidepressants?

The programme also looked into claims that the Batman movie killer James Holmes, who killed 12 people at a midnight premier cinema screening at Colorado in 2012, was taking the SSRIs sertraline at the time of the murders.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/201 ... -thoughts/

[LandM]

gg,
If you need a place to stay in Telluride let us know - you can use the house - we can give you the owners code - rather be there then Canandaigua. Not doing another RV trip too small when the arguments happen - no place to hide:), PSU football only now. Enjoy it.

I understand where you are coming from unfortunately irresponsible people make it tough for responsible people.
Best

[CU77]

Yet a local Romulus boy had to go to California, where there are stricter gun laws, to get shot and killed. Calling hours are today and tomorrow.

The California terrorist bought his guns in Nevada.

This is the problem with state guns laws: there's more than one state.

[foreverlax]

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... full-data/

The number of mass shootings per year along with the number of victims is clearly on the rise. White men using ar15s have the largest number of victims over this period of time.

[ggait]

I understand where you are coming from unfortunately irresponsible people make it tough for responsible people.

For sure. No single law or measure is perfect. But things can be improved if you do a few things, and then revise/improve them as you learn more.

The 94-04 ban on assault weapons and big clips was a good step, but not perfect. Columbine, for example, happened in 1999 while the ban was in place. The main Columbine gun (TEC-DC9) was banned originally, but then the manufacturer did a few design arounds. That doesn't mean you give up on the ban. You just need to keep refining and improving. Anyone would agree that that particular gun should have been banned despite the design arounding.

That gun was used with 28/32/52 round clips. All those clips were banned in 1994, but only for new manufacture and sale. So in 1999, a lot of those big clips were still floating around. If we'd merely kept the ban in place, those clips would gradually become scarcer and scarcer over time. Right now, the grandfathered ones would be 25 years old. So it would have been a lot tougher for the Dayton and El Paso guys to find one today in working condition.

Not impossible to get, but hard.

[MDlaxfan76]

I understand where you are coming from unfortunately irresponsible people make it tough for responsible people.

For sure. No single law or measure is perfect. But things can be improved if you do a few things, and then revise/improve them as you learn more.

The 94-04 ban on assault weapons and big clips was a good step, but not perfect. Columbine, for example, happened in 1999 while the ban was in place. The main Columbine gun (TEC-DC9) was banned originally, but then the manufacturer did a few design arounds. That doesn't mean you give up on the ban. You just need to keep refining and improving. Anyone would agree that that particular gun should have been banned despite the design arounding.

That gun was used with 28/32/52 round clips. All those clips were banned in 1994, but only for new manufacture and sale. So in 1999, a lot of those big clips were still floating around. If we'd merely kept the ban in place, those clips would gradually become scarcer and scarcer over time. Right now, the grandfathered ones would be 25 years old. So it would have been a lot tougher for the Dayton and El Paso guys to find one today in working condition.

Not impossible to get, but hard.

Way too rational an argument ggait.

[MDlaxfan76]

gg,
If you need a place to stay in Telluride let us know - you can use the house - we can give you the owners code - rather be there then Canandaigua. Not doing another RV trip too small when the arguments happen - no place to hide:), PSU football only now. Enjoy it.

I understand where you are coming from unfortunately irresponsible people make it tough for responsible people.
Best

Big fan of Telluride, 9 straight spring breaks before son hit HS lacrosse.
This is a beautiful time of year as well!

[LandM]

MD - same for you in Telluride. Need a place PM me as you can have it we just ask people to clean up and if we stop in we want the master bedroom No worries. No matter time of year it is awesome.

[a fan]

Nice stuff, fellas....

[holmes435]

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... full-data/

The number of mass shootings per year along with the number of victims is clearly on the rise. White men using ar15s have the largest number of victims over this period of time.

Corrected link here: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... full-data/

We're averaging about 55 people dead in mass shootings since 1982 with an increase in events and average deaths starting around 2008 (tough to get an exact year because there are so few incidents). In comparison, LADDERS AND LAWNMOWERS KILL 188 PEOPLE PER YEAR


The AR-15 has been commercially available since the 50's, with very few deaths from them vs. other guns. Looking at the data, the Assault Weapon Ban of 1994 did nothing statistically significant to decrease mass shootings or mass shooting casualties in the US, again mostly because there were so few of them to measure.

So we're seeing an increase since the great recession plus or minus a few years. The rise coincides with the economic hardships of the recession, stagnating wages, massive social media infiltration, the 24/7 cable news cycle, Obama election and reaction, then the Trump election and reaction to his supremacy rhetoric. Do you know what a lot of the mass shooters cite as motivation? PREVIOUS MASS SHOOTINGS (mostly due to their reporting). Putting up these lists of shootings is like a "high score" sheet and the 24/7 news cycle encourages dozens to hundreds of copycat threats per incident. We see it with suicides as well.

Even with these high velocity bullets and millions of rifles in circulation, the maximum number of deaths in a year by mass shootings is 117 with again the average being around 55 per year since 1982.
If only I could bundle this energy and enthusiasm people have regarding this stuff into meaningful legislation, I could cut gun deaths by orders of magnitude more than an AR-15 and standard capacity magazine ban. Believe me, I know that most of your hearts are in the right place, but your logic isn't following 100% of the way.

[foreverlax]

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... full-data/

The number of mass shootings per year along with the number of victims is clearly on the rise. White men using ar15s have the largest number of victims over this period of time.

Corrected link here: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... full-data/

We're averaging about 55 people dead in mass shootings since 1982 with an increase in events and average deaths starting around 2008 (tough to get an exact year because there are so few incidents). In comparison, LADDERS AND LAWNMOWERS KILL 188 PEOPLE PER YEAR


The AR-15 has been commercially available since the 50's, with very few deaths from them vs. other guns. Looking at the data, the Assault Weapon Ban of 1994 did nothing statistically significant to decrease mass shootings or mass shooting casualties in the US, again mostly because there were so few of them to measure.

So we're seeing an increase since the great recession plus or minus a few years. The rise coincides with the economic hardships of the recession, stagnating wages, massive social media infiltration, the 24/7 cable news cycle, Obama election and reaction, then the Trump election and reaction to his supremacy rhetoric. Do you know what a lot of the mass shooters cite as motivation? PREVIOUS MASS SHOOTINGS (mostly due to their reporting). Putting up these lists of shootings is like a "high score" sheet and the 24/7 news cycle encourages dozens to hundreds of copycat threats per incident. We see it with suicides as well.

Even with these high velocity bullets and millions of rifles in circulation, the maximum number of deaths in a year by mass shootings is 117 with again the average being around 55 per year since 1982.
If only I could bundle this energy and enthusiasm people have regarding this stuff into meaningful legislation, I could cut gun deaths by orders of magnitude more than an AR-15 and standard capacity magazine ban. Believe me, I know that most of your hearts are in the right place, but your logic isn't following 100% of the way.

Looking at the numbers a bit more deeply....

1. 15 mass shootings had more then 30 victims from 1982-2019

2. 80's - 2 events = 76 victims, both white male using SA pistols. Deaths per year, per incident = 3.8

3. 90's - 2 events = 81 victims, both white males using multiple SA style weapons. Deaths per year, per incident = 4.05

4. 00's - 2 events = 62 victims, both male, one "other", the second Asian, both white males using multiple SA style weapons. Deaths per year, per incident = 3.1

5. 10's - 9 events = 1021 victims, 7 white males, one other, using multiple SA style weapons. Deaths per year, per incident = 11.34

Mass Shooting by POTUS - # of incidents/victims per. Events per year

Trump - 30 incidents/33 average. 12 events per year

Obama - 37 incidents/16 average. 4.6 events per year

Bush - 16 incidents/13 average. 2 events per year.

[ggait]

Holmes -- here's a pretty even-handed assessment of the academic studies and data on the AW/LCM ban. Note that was written in 2013, so it lacks the perspective from what has happened more recently (Sandy Hook, Orlando, Las Vegas, etc.).

Consensus is that the ban was working modestly well and (the REALLY important point) would have worked much better had it been left in place:

"The grandfathering provision of the AW-LCM ban guaranteed that the effects of this law would occur only gradually over time. Those effects are still unfolding and may not be fully felt for several years into the future, particularly if foreign, pre-ban LCMs continue to be imported into the U.S. in large numbers. It is thus premature to make definitive assessments of the ban’s impact on gun violence."

The ban was a reasonable bi-partisan (supported by Ford, Carter, Reagan, Clinton) measure that had already been put in place. By design, it would become more effective the longer it was kept in place. This was a classic case where "mend it, don't end it" was the correct answer.


https://www.factcheck.org/2013/02/did-t ... -ban-work/

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... full-data/

The number of mass shootings per year along with the number of victims is clearly on the rise. White men using ar15s have the largest number of victims over this period of time.

Corrected link here: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... full-data/

We're averaging about 55 people dead in mass shootings since 1982 with an increase in events and average deaths starting around 2008 (tough to get an exact year because there are so few incidents). In comparison, LADDERS AND LAWNMOWERS KILL 188 PEOPLE PER YEAR


The AR-15 has been commercially available since the 50's, with very few deaths from them vs. other guns. Looking at the data, the Assault Weapon Ban of 1994 did nothing statistically significant to decrease mass shootings or mass shooting casualties in the US, again mostly because there were so few of them to measure.

So we're seeing an increase since the great recession plus or minus a few years. The rise coincides with the economic hardships of the recession, stagnating wages, massive social media infiltration, the 24/7 cable news cycle, Obama election and reaction, then the Trump election and reaction to his supremacy rhetoric. Do you know what a lot of the mass shooters cite as motivation? PREVIOUS MASS SHOOTINGS (mostly due to their reporting). Putting up these lists of shootings is like a "high score" sheet and the 24/7 news cycle encourages dozens to hundreds of copycat threats per incident. We see it with suicides as well.

Even with these high velocity bullets and millions of rifles in circulation, the maximum number of deaths in a year by mass shootings is 117 with again the average being around 55 per year since 1982.
If only I could bundle this energy and enthusiasm people have regarding this stuff into meaningful legislation, I could cut gun deaths by orders of magnitude more than an AR-15 and standard capacity magazine ban. Believe me, I know that most of your hearts are in the right place, but your logic isn't following 100% of the way.

Looking at the numbers a bit more deeply....

1. 15 mass shootings had more then 30 victims from 1982-2019

2. 80's - 2 events = 76 victims, both white male using SA pistols. Deaths per year, per incident = 3.8

3. 90's - 2 events = 81 victims, both white males using multiple SA style weapons. Deaths per year, per incident = 4.05

4. 00's - 2 events = 62 victims, both male, one "other", the second Asian, both white males using multiple SA style weapons. Deaths per year, per incident = 3.1

5. 10's - 9 events = 1021 victims, 7 white males, one other, using multiple SA style weapons. Deaths per year, per incident = 11.34

Mass Shooting by POTUS - # of incidents/victims per. Events per year

Trump - 30 incidents/33 average. 12 events per year

Obama - 37 incidents/16 average. 4.6 events per year

Bush - 16 incidents/13 average. 2 events per year.

Where were the shooters in Louisiana and Dallas captured? I believe both were black ex-military guys. There was a threat assessment regarding returning military personnel that went largely ignored because it came under Obama’s watch. Didn’t the Vegas shooter have military training? Not knocking the military. It’s lack of health and human service offerings for those in need. I mentioned I have a cousin deeply involved in studying suicides in the military. It is alarming.

[foreverlax]

Mental health, we all agree, is a big issue....so far the investment in studying mental health and guns has been pretty much nil. Thank you NRA.

When that ban is lifted and real money put forth, it will be clear the pols are serious.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Mental health, we all agree, is a big issue....so far the investment in studying mental health and guns has been pretty much nil. Thank you NRA.

When that ban is lifted and real money put forth, it will be clear the pols are serious.

Yep.