2020 Elections - Trump FIRED

[Typical Lax Dad]

whine, whine, whine.

So, the story gets coverage, but it's not at the scale of coverage you want?

Here's some cheese to go with all that wine.

No one on here thinks that violence should be excused because it's one race or another, nor have I heard any such in the MSM. The only place I hear any of that is on right wing media claiming it be the belief of the MSM, which far as I can tell is just BS.

It was a disgusting act that deserves strong punishment.

me, me me, it's all about me and what I think it's important. don't recall myself getting all upset because you value one topic over another.

Youre No gentleman, but no doorknob either.

Yet, you endorse division on racial grounds when the Post goes full 24/7, above the fold coverage about a smirkinig high school child when a grown man is assaulting him with an instrument whose decibles, that close to the ear drum, may do permanent damage. White kid, brown adult. Brown kids, white adult. You reveal much about yourself with your long winded comments. lacking the very quality the residents of the baltimore area call it. Interesting that it rhymes harm

Kid with the MAGA hat and smirk could have walked away if his ears were being assaulted by that deadly weapon. Simon Bar Sinister whip that up?

blame the victim.......nice

No problem. My kids aren’t going on a high school field trip to make a political statement. They represent the school. Where were the adults.

[a fan]

I don’t want to fight or get into this argument but I completely disagree and silly is a “dumb” response.

Using a nonsense model, living a mark to model world is dishonest and illegitimate completely. Go read some talib and come back.

If you don't want your ideas to be called silly, don't tell me that "Outcomes don't prove anything", and then go on to rip the unemployment rate in Europeans countries, and cite those "outcomes" as the your reason why you think it's dumb to use them as a model for things like healthcare. Either you believe we should look at outcomes, or you don't. Pick one.

You're a money guy, right? What you are arguing is that you'd invest in a company that is modeled on nothing---and that everything about the firm...from the product, to the management, to the delivery system, to the financial structure is better off it is invented whole cloth, and not be based on any existing businesses. Based on projects and mathematical modeling. This is nonsense.

What you'll put your money on is, say, Elon Musk. Where does Musk start? On a car. An invention that's been around and has been market proven for 100 years. That's where Musk starts....existing model that works fairly well. Then he tweaks it.

Same thing with SpaceX. Same thing with Amazon. All based on provable business models, yet have important tweaks.

I have read Taleb's essays. He's saying what I just wrote above, and is contradicting your advice on building an American Health Care system. His advice is to plan ~90% of your money in the safest investments possible, while using the remaining 10% chasing after , essentially, his Black Swan. Correct?

It's literally how I run my business. 90% sure things, 10% "no one has ever done this before". The 90% allows for the 10% risk.

It makes more sense and is more honest to put ones neck on the line with a thesis and see what happens because applying in inaccurate if elegant model to our country is what leaders and politicians are supposed to be doing. What model did we use when we took down England and gained independence? Life is dynamic and living as if organizational structures can be transferred within very different dynamic models is silly.

I thought you just told me using the word silly was a dumb response?

You're clearly independently wealthy. Why else would you council that our new Health Care system should be a crap shoot, based on math and speculative modeling, rather than using something that has worked will...or parts of systems that have worked well.....and simply tweak them.

Using your Taleb guy as a guide: would he council that you invest 100% of your investment money chasing Black Swans? No. No, he wouldn't.

Don’t believe me, ask your smart stem friends who aren’t biased towards an issue and true researchers

I live with one. All her friends are PhD policy wonks...Econ, Public Health, Public Policy, Environmental Sciences, etc. If you told them to invent a new American Health Care system with the caveat that you can't use any parts of any existing model from any other country including the US....they'd ask you what you were smoking.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Mine is a molecular cellular biologist

[Farfromgeneva]

I don’t want to fight or get into this argument but I completely disagree and silly is a “dumb” response.

Using a nonsense model, living a mark to model world is dishonest and illegitimate completely. Go read some talib and come back.

If you don't want your ideas to be called silly, don't tell me that "Outcomes don't prove anything", and then go on to rip the unemployment rate in Europeans countries, and cite those "outcomes" as the your reason why you think it's dumb to use them as a model for things like healthcare. Either you believe we should look at outcomes, or you don't. Pick one.

You're a money guy, right? What you are arguing is that you'd invest in a company that is modeled on nothing---and that everything about the firm...from the product, to the management, to the delivery system, to the financial structure is better off it is invented whole cloth, and not be based on any existing businesses. Based on projects and mathematical modeling. This is nonsense.

What you'll put your money on is, say, Elon Musk. Where does Musk start? On a car. An invention that's been around and has been market proven for 100 years. That's where Musk starts....existing model that works fairly well. Then he tweaks it.

Same thing with SpaceX. Same thing with Amazon. All based on provable business models, yet have important tweaks.

I have read Taleb's essays. He's saying what I just wrote above, and is contradicting your advice on building an American Health Care system. His advice is to plan ~90% of your money in the safest investments possible, while using the remaining 10% chasing after , essentially, his Black Swan. Correct?

It's literally how I run my business. 90% sure things, 10% "no one has ever done this before". The 90% allows for the 10% risk.

It makes more sense and is more honest to put ones neck on the line with a thesis and see what happens because applying in inaccurate if elegant model to our country is what leaders and politicians are supposed to be doing. What model did we use when we took down England and gained independence? Life is dynamic and living as if organizational structures can be transferred within very different dynamic models is silly.

I thought you just told me using the word silly was a dumb response?

You're clearly independently wealthy. Why else would you council that our new Health Care system should be a dump shoot, based on math and speculative modeling, rather than using something that has worked will...or parts of systems that have worked well.....and simply tweak them.

Using your Taleb guy as a guide: would he council that you invest 100% of your investment money chasing Black Swans? No. No, he wouldn't.

Don’t believe me, ask your smart stem friends who aren’t biased towards an issue and true researchers

I live with one. All her friends are PhD policy wonks...Econ, Public Health, Public Policy, Environmental Sciences, etc. If you told them to invent a new American Health Care system with the caveat that you can't use any parts of any existing model from any other country including the US....they'd ask you what you were smoking.

There’s just so many leaps you make from my notes, this and prior, that I can’t do this on this type of forum, but I assure we could have beers, not get angry and discuss and I’m very sure you’re assumptions are incorrect in many ways. Too black and white And not truly understanding how math, econometrics and social structures work.

Outcomes mean something if all other inputs are equal, they sent and you don’t get that at all clearly. I will say that you live in an anecdotal and nuance lacking world and if we had a rigorous analytical debate you’re full of age. Not silly, wrong and your papacy sucks ass.p


Btw, I said unbiased stem friends, true scientists, that is less than 20% of all academics and scientists. So your anecdotal example is worthless and lazy (see I can say bad things in lieu of having a real conversation too).

I’ve never once said a country should be modeled like a business. MBA and Ibanking career or not, I also grew up w a stage director sister who forced my to read basketball diaries and w stranger before 8th grade. I really do get e balance between techne and epistome and now am convinced you don’t.

Essays? Talib has writtwn300-400pg technical books. You call those essays or did you take the intellectually lazy way out and read shorter productions

Alice Waters, love her stuff (chez pansies) but she’s been recently quoted as saying the by far largest proportion of a schools budget go to food which is myopic at best).

And by the way heck you because I grew up lower middle class in Binghamton NY, my older sister lived oartnof her life on assistance and I borrowed or saved most of the cost of undergrad and grad school. You make all sorts of wrong assumptions and that one pisses me off. So I’m done with this. You simply don’t know true mathematical reality of modeling vs the real world and just yak out your ass abot anecdotal turd. The arrogance and shot taking is just tiresome. You’re not the intellectual you think you are Ben eh level heads reasonable person. Just a hysterical shot talkr

[MDlaxfan76]

Mine is a molecular cellular biologist

We clearly married above us, guys!

[a fan]

There’s just so many leaps you make from my notes, this and prior, that I can’t do this on this type of forum, but I assure we could have beers, not get angry and discuss and I’m very sure you’re assumptions are incorrect in many ways. Too black and white And not truly understanding how math, econometrics and social structures work.

Outcomes mean something if all other inputs are equal

That never happens in any complex systems. You're literally asking the impossible. This notion works great if you're kicking things around in a philosophy seminar, and not at all if you're trying to make sure an American child in Alabama gets even 2nd world-level health care, let alone 1st.

I will say that you live in an anecdotal and nuance lacking world and if we had a rigorous analytical debate you’re full of age. Not silly, wrong and your papacy sucks ass.p

I was a double philosophy and lit major, and started my own business from scratch 20 years ago. Still going strong. Not only does Alice Waters serve my spirits at Chez Panisse, she just visited our shop a few month ago because she believes in what we do. If you want to dig into Hegel, go right ahead. If you want to discuss rubber meets road business theories? Go right ahead. Want to discuss farm to table or environmental sustainability? Guess who did that 25 years ago, before the terms existed? Want to discuss who read what in 8th grade? Happy to. That was my Kerouac phase until a teacher told me he was ripping off Thomas Wolfe's syntax and railroad analogies and applying it to the US highway system....

So....speaking of making the wrong assumptions? Right back atcha.

Dude. All I'm trying to do is have a discussion, and I enjoy prodding folks views----the entire purpose to our forum----if for whatever reason I use a tone that irks you? Let me know, and I'll rephrase. Happy to apologize as well. I'm not trying to offend-----some offend easily here, some don't. And I can't tell where you are on this, unless you tell me. I'm not a mind reader.

You have been giving it to posters for their ideas, including me....and then you get upset when you get some return fire? Dude: you told me to read a book and get back to you....this isn't condescending, how, exactly? And then doubled down and called me lazy for looking up several discussions of the Black Swan theory so I could understand your points.

I ordered the book, btw. I'm sure I'll enjoy it. How about we start over, and I'll tone it down..... and you do the same?

First point of order: Tell me how YOU would design a new US health system? Not some other guy---how would YOU do it?

[Farfromgeneva]

You accused me of being from privilege without knowing anything and called legitimate intellectual debate silly.

I’m he one taking shots? Or just responding to less than fair or legitimate discourse?

[MDlaxfan76]

I’d like change but I would like to see independent analysis, unbiased projections, an honest discussion of the costs and benefits based on rigorous analysis and then try something different. It’s one thing to take examples in to build ones own model but to just say stupidly, “hey it seems to be working here or there in countries set up way differently 16 ways from Sunday so let’s just copy that and overlay here” is lazy, not analytical even if Zeke Emannual has his model, fraudulent and dumb. Let’s take ownership of this and do it the way that can be agreed and compromised on. It’s unlikely in this environment to happen and I really don’t want to hear a tired old axiom of “don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good”. That’s a lazy trope as well.

I lived in denmark, amazing country yet would never think it would make sense to model anything after them.

The whole notion that we’re looking for answers from Canada and Europe, who are doing far, far worse than us overall, makes no sense. Whatever hegemony we built over time was on our own “Protestant ethic and spirit of capitalism” (book title not religious by me) not following some other dipshits who we took our freedoms from and have far more problems and skeletons than we do.

That doesn’t mean don’t take observations into consideration from other models but then we do it the way that makes sense. Ernest if this discussion is basically all just nonsense. Value at risk (car) is a mathematically elegant model but it’s dogshit when. Comes to assumptions about the real world.

I'm still not following you, but perhaps that's the disjointed writing style, and various grammatical or spelling issues, that may cloud what you are saying, as much as my own density.

We'd likely agree, and so would a fan I'd think, that of course it would be 'lazy' to simply overlay another country's system, verbatim, on the US and expect it to deliver identical outcomes. But that's not all what he's suggesting, at least if I read him correctly.

We'd also agree about the politics getting in the way of unbiased consideration of alternatives. Probably would agree on many of the virtues of our own system and its history.

But I read your various comments at least coming across as incredibly arrogant about your own capacity to discern what is biased or not, dismissive of anyone else's capacity to think rationally. And you seem to come to the table with an angry view about the world, dismissive of other countries' experiences and perhaps angry that American exceptionalism isn't so overwhelming as you'd like it to be? Again, it's really difficult to follow your train of thought, but you sound way too emotional to be the voice of credibility and reason on here.

[MDlaxfan76]

You accused me of being from privilege without knowing anything and called legitimate intellectual debate silly.

I’m he one taking shots? Or just responding to less than fair or legitimate discourse?

He said "you're clearly independently wealthy".

Not that you were raised by rich parents. Thankfully it's possible in America to achieve that status without having been born in the socioeconomic bracket!

So, it's not an insult, though it's interesting that you assume it to be.

Are you not?

[a fan]

We'd likely agree, and so would a fan I'd think, that of course it would be 'lazy' to simply overlay another country's system, verbatim, on the US and expect it to deliver identical outcomes. But that's not all what he's suggesting, at least if I read him correctly.

Once again, it took you zero effort to get my points.


The one thing I've learned of late, is that when a poster complains about another poster creating strawmen, misrepresenting someone's position, only thinking in black and white, not having any nuance, being condescending.....it means that they are moments away from doing the very thing they are accusing the other poster of doing.

I've seen this play out dozens of times over the last two years. It's not ironic anymore.

[MDlaxfan76]

I’d like change but I would like to see independent analysis, unbiased projections, an honest discussion of the costs and benefits based on rigorous analysis and then try something different. It’s one thing to take examples in to build ones own model but to just say stupidly, “hey it seems to be working here or there in countries set up way differently 16 ways from Sunday so let’s just copy that and overlay here” is lazy, not analytical even if Zeke Emannual has his model, fraudulent and dumb. Let’s take ownership of this and do it the way that can be agreed and compromised on. It’s unlikely in this environment to happen and I really don’t want to hear a tired old axiom of “don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good”. That’s a lazy trope as well.

I lived in denmark, amazing country yet would never think it would make sense to model anything after them.

The whole notion that we’re looking for answers from Canada and Europe, who are doing far, far worse than us overall, makes no sense. Whatever hegemony we built over time was on our own “Protestant ethic and spirit of capitalism” (book title not religious by me) not following some other dipshits who we took our freedoms from and have far more problems and skeletons than we do.

That doesn’t mean don’t take observations into consideration from other models but then we do it the way that makes sense. Ernest if this discussion is basically all just nonsense. Value at risk (car) is a mathematically elegant model but it’s dogshit when. Comes to assumptions about the real world.

I'm still not following you, but perhaps that's the disjointed writing style, and various grammatical or spelling issues, that may cloud what you are saying, as much as my own density.

We'd likely agree, and so would a fan I'd think, that of course it would be 'lazy' to simply overlay another country's system, verbatim, on the US and expect it to deliver identical outcomes. But that's not all what he's suggesting, at least if I read him correctly.

We'd also agree about the politics getting in the way of unbiased consideration of alternatives. Probably would agree on many of the virtues of our own system and its history.

But I read your various comments at least coming across as incredibly arrogant about your own capacity to discern what is biased or not, dismissive of anyone else's capacity to think rationally. And you seem to come to the table with an angry view about the world, dismissive of other countries' experiences and perhaps angry that American exceptionalism isn't so overwhelming as you'd like it to be? Again, it's really difficult to follow your train of thought, but you sound way too emotional to be the voice of credibility and reason on here.

But at least you seem to be trying to bring to the table some actual discussion of ideas, so good on you for that. Just help us slow pokes out a bit and explain your views a little less emotionally and a little more clearly. We may learn something!

[a fan]

You accused me of being from privilege without knowing anything and called legitimate intellectual debate silly.

I’m he one taking shots? Or just responding to less than fair or legitimate discourse?

He said "you're clearly independently wealthy".

Not that you were raised by rich parents. Thankfully it's possible in America to achieve that status without having been born in the socioeconomic bracket!

So, it's not an insult, though it's interesting that you assume it to be.

Are you not?

He also missed that I, too, am independently wealthy. Castigating me for making assumptions...right before he launches his own.....

It's cool. No one is perfect.

[MDlaxfan76]

We'd likely agree, and so would a fan I'd think, that of course it would be 'lazy' to simply overlay another country's system, verbatim, on the US and expect it to deliver identical outcomes. But that's not all what he's suggesting, at least if I read him correctly.

Once again, it took you zero effort to get my points.


The one thing I've learned of late, is that when a poster complains about another poster creating strawmen, misrepresenting someone's position, only thinking in black and white, not having any nuance, being condescending.....it means that they are moments away from doing the very thing they are accusing the other poster of doing.

I've seen this play out dozens of times over the last two years. It's not ironic anymore.

But it is indeed an interesting psychological phenomenon!

Gotta go have dinner with my wife and my brilliant math brother-in-law who is a total nut job politically...making shakshouka with tomatoes and peppers out of our garden, eggs from our next door neighbor. Yum.

Peace out to all.

[Farfromgeneva]

I have $400k ish on a home bought for $530k and worked 120 hour weeks and paid off &$90k in Debt for grad school. The house in candler park neighborhood of Atlanta is worth something like $700-$750k on paper so there’s maybe $300k in equity, combined with my wife’s bullsht $40k a yr, watch Netflix 3/4 weeks of a month accounting job, maybe $150-$200k in retirement accounts and $20-$40k in liquid banks. 41yrs old, finished grad school in 2005 and started doing my going breaking the curve compensation wise 3-4yrs post crisis before hitting the shitshow. Took a decade to repay rad school debt when t should’ve been 3-5yrs. My mother grew to #2 in the NYS DOT collecting maybe $40-$45k/yr now and her house near Ross park zoo bought in 1989 may or may not be worth more than she paid of approx $72k in 1989 because that area has regressed so much. My father who had severe, extreme thunderous arthritis picked up in his 30s (I was born when he was 38) such that playing catch with him or going bowling was something he did with me despite excruciating pain, never complaining (from bath, my, am exurb and rural heck outside Corning/Elmira, technically not even bath but rather savona) and had his first hip replacement at 55, living in Medicaid, a maybe 12yr pension working for the thruway and whatever SS threw in. He rented post divorce when I was 11-14 (lot of lawyer fighting over nothing tangible) and hasimted savings but did or gave me and my older sister whatever he ever could.

I have two kids, 5 and soon to be 7, throw in a miscarriage, along with my dad dying because Piedmont hospital and signature rehab was both worthless shtheada who basically killed my father between ischemia, c diff and septic shock over months of neglect.

Had a Jerry McGuire moment and quit my job yes ago w a boutique investment bank where I was getting picked off despite all this going on at home and now hire jaywkf out until I find a place I’m comfortable making $100-$200k working, on average, 60-75hr weeks though more volatile than a paycheck gig.

Am I independently wealthy? I don’t know but for as hard as I’ve had to work I don’t feel like it al all and continue to bust my nuts to make Money to take care of my immediate family, close friends in need and my mother. I get the sense Afan and you are far more independently wealthy than I am.

You guys tell me what I am on 200mg of sertralin a day and a marriage falling apart while trying f to find some honorable and hard working colleagues to team up with. I have no idea what I am but I see a ton of assumptions so here’s a good chunk of my story for you all to decide.

[a fan]

What I meant the wealth comment is that you----and please clarify your point if I'm wrong---- were suggesting that we NOT look at existing health care systems in a myriad of countries that are plainly delivering 1st world health care, at half the price we are paying in America.

In other words, if this new health care system of yours doesn't pan out, you and your family will be fine...so it's ok to chase after an entirely new way of delivering American health care doesn't work well, you'll still have access to care. You're willing to chase the Black Swan in the hopes that it will be better than any other current system. That's why you're willing to start whole cloth, rather than taking bits and pieces from existing systems that we know works fairly well---albeit in a different context, obviously----then what we have here in the US.

The salary and assets you detail says I am right. And yep, I'm in the same situation that you are. So I'm not judging. I'm simply pointing out that you're willing to roll the dice to get a better health care system, because in the end, you'll be able to afford whatever pops up. And it sounds like you don't like our current system much....welcome to the club!

Been working 7 day weeks for as long as I can remember. I'm at work right now, finishing up a batch......

Have taken two vacations in the last 25 years. Both in total were fewer than ten working days. And both I managed to fit in a day's worth of work because of my vocation.

Safe to say that for both of us, it's been a lot of hard work, a bit of luck, a bit of help from others....and we're luckier than most, no?

Apologies if I offended earlier. I've said this a million times----these conversations are soooooo much easier over a pint or two. And none of us are as clear with our points as we'd like.

I hope you find you find a workplace where you're happy. Truly. Best of luck.

[Farfromgeneva]

No in fact I’ve written explicitly numerous times in my last few posts hat of corse any process to establish a major change or new system should consider everyhing. To some degree though some noise need to be thrown out but I would include those models but also variables like tax rates, degree of free market trade, life expectancy, overall wealth and a number of other hard and softer factors. But at doesn’t in any way mean just op another system in.

I’ve had nothing twice post college lost over exogenous events and had to rebuke. No one is owed anything. The best system is a pure one and our country has had many successes writing with own path in an unknown. Why bother exploring space if we don’t know what we will find? I’m ok with is, is honest,thoughtful and considerate continuing to write our own path. You’re ignoring all the problems in the countries at have was terrific systems as if there uncorrelated in any way and that’s just not the case. It’s funny how birders and sovereignty is hypocritical when talking about human rights or he well being of people. We are no doubt going to regress to the mean. What frustrates me is selected quotes ignoring other parts, bad assumptions and using terms like silly because I’m tying to not be too analytical. Either there’s a serious conversation or its a street fight. Your posts come across as disinterested in Socratic debate in any way shape or form.

And yes mD, I post on my phone most of the time with fat thumbs and see a lot of the typos but don’t correct which can make some things somewhat opaque but I appreciate that you recognize that I’m trying to have more of a conversation than this goofy, back and forth that persists within these boards. I’m frustrated by people quoting parts but ignoring other words I wrote that would properly explain those things and ignoring the words I wrote. Steve Bannon is a scumbag but incredibly smart and his comments on the hashtag movement being a sign of a complete flip of the male hegemony is probably correct so I expect before I’m dead that I’m hoping to avoid the tyranny of the majority as a white male but expect given all the crap the other folks have taken that they’ll be retributional and I just have to manage my life hoping to provide a better life for my kids than I had. I fully expect that we, (White male Americans) are going to regress to the mean hard and probably deserves to. No anger there’s it’s the balance of life. It’s the non stop bullahit posts that don’t adress or even attempt to further a really important and interesting conversation.

[a fan]

No in fact I’ve written explicitly numerous times in my last few posts hat of corse any process to establish a major change or new system should consider everyhing. To some degree though some noise need to be thrown out but I would include those models but also variables like tax rates, degree of free market trade, life expectancy, overall wealth and a number of other hard and softer factors. But at doesn’t in any way mean just op another system in.

Where did I say we should just pop another country's system in with no changes? I didn't. All I pointed out is that most 1st world nations systems are providing better care for half the price-------and when I pointed at that we should have a look at these systems when designing our own system, you came back with "outcomes don't matter".

You tell me what I'm supposed to make of your response here? What am I missing?

The best system is a pure one and our country has had many successes writing with own path in an unknown.

We are currently in that very system---one of America's own unique invention. Right now. Today. We invented this hybrid government/private system of doctors, insurers, HMO's, etc.

How do you think it's working right now? Today? Would you say that we've got the best care in the world for American citizens? If so, great. If not, perhaps your "writing your own path" approach needs some tweaking.

What frustrates me is selected quotes ignoring other parts, bad assumptions and using terms like silly because I’m tying to not be too analytical.

Surely you understand that you are literally doing the same thing to me, right? For example, you just ignored my direct Socratic question to you in a post, and then accused me below of being disinterested in Socratic debate. More to the point, I just ordered the doggone book you suggested to me....so dude, come on already.

Here's the Socratic question from me, yet again.....

Tell me how YOU would design a new US health system? Not some other guy---how would YOU do it?

Your posts come across as disinterested in Socratic debate in any way shape or form.

[runrussellrun]

blame the victim.......nice

No problem. My kids aren’t going on a high school field trip to make a political statement. They represent the school. Where were the adults.
[/quote]

what is it about trumping someones else's experiences? Other kids besides yours. The Covington kids marched in a political parade, remember?

I really wonder if you even know the topic being discussed.

[Farfromgeneva]

[quote=Farfromgeneva post_id=69431 time=<a href="tel:1565055563">1565055563</a> user_id=1206]
No in fact I’ve written explicitly numerous times in my last few posts hat of corse any process to establish a major change or new system should consider everyhing. To some degree though some noise need to be thrown out but I would include those models but also variables like tax rates, degree of free market trade, life expectancy, overall wealth and a number of other hard and softer factors. But at doesn’t in any way mean just op another system in.

Where did I say we should just pop another country's system in with no changes? I didn't. All I pointed out is that most 1st world nations systems are providing better care for half the price-------and when I pointed at that we should have a look at these systems when designing our own system, you came back with "outcomes don't matter".

You tell me what I'm supposed to make of your response here? What am I missing?

Where did I say outcomes don’t matter explicitly? If I did or my fat fingers typed that what I’m saying is it comes only matter if you consider all the costs. Many of which will come outside the system your talking about and you seem to be ignoring. The “cost” is much bigger than the price/service which you are describing. How much of those “cheaper” (imputes from your comments to be equal or better service though I understand that’s completely untrue in europe). I keep saying that it’s much more complex and when you dig in you'll find a lot of pricing transfer and other costs not included within those societies. It all needs to be accounted for. You keep posing the same thing that other countries do it fine but is that really true when fully and truthfully accounting for all the costs (like as it stands today these new scooters are environmentally inefficient as was the ethanol mandate by bush 2).

[quote=Farfromgeneva post_id=69431 time=<a href="tel:1565055563">1565055563</a> user_id=1206]
The best system is a pure one and our country has had many successes writing with own path in an unknown. [/quote]
We are currently in that very system---one of America's own unique invention. Right now. Today. We invented this hybrid government/private system of doctors, insurers, HMO's, etc.

How do you think it's working right now? Today? Would you say that we've got the best care in the world for American citizens? If so, great. If not, perhaps your "writing your own path" approach needs some tweaking.

So fix it, but how about parity between employer provided insurance and individual in the tax code, allowing people to shop for insurance across state lines and a shitload of other things that are low hanging fruit but could easily provide major improvements to the system before a complete single payer overhaul. As many have referenced shifting th care from end of life to wellness is another area of improvement to be tried. Many others before just saying “the government does it better”. (Maybe it does maybe it doesn’t but I gladly challenge that type of claim). We also have to consider our subsidies and other structural features to o educational system, many of the countries have free or much more heavily subsidized education allowing doctors to be less focused on p&l overall. I don’t like the current system but no one has explained how we shoehorn this one piece of the overall system in and not have a massive hellhole of a butterfly effect on 70 other quality of life metrics in a negative manner.

[quote=Farfromgeneva post_id=69431 time=<a href="tel:1565055563">1565055563</a> user_id=1206]
What frustrates me is selected quotes ignoring other parts, bad assumptions and using terms like silly because I’m tying to not be too analytical. [/quote]Surely you understand that you are literally doing the same thing to me, right? For example, you just ignored my direct Socratic question to you in a post, and then accused me below of being disinterested in Socratic debate. More to the point, I just ordered the doggone book you suggested to me....so dude, come on already.

Here's the Socratic question from me, yet again.....

Tell me how YOU would design a new US health system? Not some other guy---how would YOU do it?

[quote=Farfromgeneva post_id=69431 time=<a href="tel:1565055563">1565055563</a> user_id=1206]
Your posts come across as disinterested in Socratic debate in any way shape or form. [/quote]
[/quote]

socratic method means questioning the statements posited. I was responding to you to understand better an dyou do my comments are silly rather than furthering if your own argument along.

[Farfromgeneva]

[quote=Farfromgeneva post_id=69431 time=<a href="tel:1565055563">1565055563</a> user_id=1206]
No in fact I’ve written explicitly numerous times in my last few posts hat of corse any process to establish a major change or new system should consider everyhing. To some degree though some noise need to be thrown out but I would include those models but also variables like tax rates, degree of free market trade, life expectancy, overall wealth and a number of other hard and softer factors. But at doesn’t in any way mean just op another system in.

Where did I say we should just pop another country's system in with no changes? I didn't. All I pointed out is that most 1st world nations systems are providing better care for half the price-------and when I pointed at that we should have a look at these systems when designing our own system, you came back with "outcomes don't matter".

You tell me what I'm supposed to make of your response here? What am I missing?

Where did I say outcomes don’t matter explicitly? If I did or my fat fingers typed that what I’m saying is it comes only matter if you consider all the costs. Many of which will come outside the system your talking about and you seem to be ignoring. The “cost” is much bigger than the price/service which you are describing. How much of those “cheaper” (imputes from your comments to be equal or better service though I understand that’s completely untrue in europe). I keep saying that it’s much more complex and when you dig in you'll find a lot of pricing transfer and other costs not included within those societies. It all needs to be accounted for. You keep posing the same thing that other countries do it fine but is that really true when fully and truthfully accounting for all the costs (like as it stands today these new scooters are environmentally inefficient as was the ethanol mandate by bush 2).

[quote=Farfromgeneva post_id=69431 time=<a href="tel:1565055563">1565055563</a> user_id=1206]
The best system is a pure one and our country has had many successes writing with own path in an unknown. [/quote]
We are currently in that very system---one of America's own unique invention. Right now. Today. We invented this hybrid government/private system of doctors, insurers, HMO's, etc.

How do you think it's working right now? Today? Would you say that we've got the best care in the world for American citizens? If so, great. If not, perhaps your "writing your own path" approach needs some tweaking.

So fix it, but how about parity between employer provided insurance and individual in the tax code, allowing people to shop for insurance across state lines and a shitload of other things that are low hanging fruit but could easily provide major improvements to the system before a complete single payer overhaul. As many have referenced shifting th care from end of life to wellness is another area of improvement to be tried. Many others before just saying “the government does it better”. (Maybe it does maybe it doesn’t but I gladly challenge that type of claim). We also have to consider our subsidies and other structural features to o educational system, many of the countries have free or much more heavily subsidized education allowing doctors to be less focused on p&l overall. I don’t like the current system but no one has explained how we shoehorn this one piece of the overall system in and not have a massive hellhole of a butterfly effect on 70 other quality of life metrics in a negative manner.

[quote=Farfromgeneva post_id=69431 time=<a href="tel:1565055563">1565055563</a> user_id=1206]
What frustrates me is selected quotes ignoring other parts, bad assumptions and using terms like silly because I’m tying to not be too analytical. [/quote]Surely you understand that you are literally doing the same thing to me, right? For example, you just ignored my direct Socratic question to you in a post, and then accused me below of being disinterested in Socratic debate. More to the point, I just ordered the doggone book you suggested to me....so dude, come on already.

Here's the Socratic question from me, yet again.....

Tell me how YOU would design a new US health system? Not some other guy---how would YOU do it?

[quote=Farfromgeneva post_id=69431 time=<a href="tel:1565055563">1565055563</a> user_id=1206]
Your posts come across as disinterested in Socratic debate in any way shape or form. [/quote]
[/quote]

socratic method means questioning the statements posited. I was responding to you to understand better an dyou do my comments are silly rather than furthering if your own argument along. I don’t see all your proclamations being clearly defined and looking to define the underlying assumptions built into your statements. Socratic method doesn’t mean turning it around to force the other one to define things first, it’s imperative on the initial thesis that said person define their position and underlying assumptions first. But I’m clearly not getting there so I’ve failed. But I can look up yo comments on most of these boards and it’s the same old trite comments that are filled with tons of assumptions that others are supposed to just agree to and I don’t see all of them and want to understand better. Guess I never will.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method