Sensible Gun Safety

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seacoaster
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by seacoaster »

DMac wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:42 am Just awful. Anyone got an answer/solution?
350,000,000 (and growing...that 350mil number has been used for a long time now) guns of all kinds of varieties, billions and billions of rounds of ammo.
How do you deal with that?
I understand the sentiment and the question, DMac. But I think you have to do something that recognizes that continuing the same non-policy/inaction into the future will not help. The problem should be addressed prospectively, irrespective of the existence of assault weapons. As the mayor of Dayton says, "when is enough enough?" The Second Amendment is functionally the First now, and the only one that requires a sizable part of the citizenry to live and remain in fear that this trip to the Walmart, this day at school, this morning at the office, or this night at a bar may result in you and your loved ones getting murdered in little droves.

My daughter's best friend lives in Dayton, and the friend and her sisters regularly stop by Ned Peppers. My daughter woke this morning, texts furiously shooting around the country trying to make sure that this young woman, anyway, wasn't dead. Land of the free? You better be brave.
ggait
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by ggait »

Dayton shooter hit 36 people in one minute, killing 9.

Crazy white men don’t always commit mass murder. But when they do, they prefer an assault rifle.

You just can’t do this with a six shooter.
Boycott stupid. Country over party.
CU88
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by CU88 »

ggait wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:03 pm Dayton shooter hit 36 people in one minute, killing 9.

Crazy white men don’t always commit mass murder. But when they do, they prefer an assault rifle.

You just can’t do this with a six shooter.
I am all for the 2nd Amendment, maybe it is time to focus on the language; "... well regulated..."?
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Mr moderator, deactivate my account.
You have heck this forum up to making it nothing more than a joke. I hope you are happy.
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holmes435
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by holmes435 »

If you take away the guns, you still have an angry white guy who wants to harm people. They'll use IEDs, truck, pistols, knives, etc.

Treat the root cause and you don't need to take away a constitutional right. Gun control is focused on the symptom, not the disease.
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youthathletics
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by youthathletics »

Hearing via WTOP news in DC that the Ohio Shooter killed his sister in the exchange.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
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holmes435
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by holmes435 »

CU88 wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:52 am Next up--mass shootings began when we took prayer out of schools, legalized abortion, video games, poor school designs, etc...
Ironically despite these high-visibility events (pumped up by the media), violent crime is at a near historic low and one of the contributing factors is thought to be legalized abortion along with removing lead from gasoline and a lot of other things.
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

seacoaster wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:50 pm
DMac wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:42 am Just awful. Anyone got an answer/solution?
350,000,000 (and growing...that 350mil number has been used for a long time now) guns of all kinds of varieties, billions and billions of rounds of ammo.
How do you deal with that?
I understand the sentiment and the question, DMac. But I think you have to do something that recognizes that continuing the same non-policy/inaction into the future will not help. The problem should be addressed prospectively, irrespective of the existence of assault weapons. As the mayor of Dayton says, "when is enough enough?" The Second Amendment is functionally the First now, and the only one that requires a sizable part of the citizenry to live and remain in fear that this trip to the Walmart, this day at school, this morning at the office, or this night at a bar may result in you and your loved ones getting murdered in little droves.

My daughter's best friend lives in Dayton, and the friend and her sisters regularly stop by Ned Peppers. My daughter woke this morning, texts furiously shooting around the country trying to make sure that this young woman, anyway, wasn't dead. Land of the free? You better be brave.
I made several calls this morning. Waiting to hear back. I have been in that district a ton of times. Good thing the University of Dayton is out for Summer break....
“I wish you would!”
DMac
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by DMac »

seacoaster wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:50 pm
DMac wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:42 am Just awful. Anyone got an answer/solution?
350,000,000 (and growing...that 350mil number has been used for a long time now) guns of all kinds of varieties, billions and billions of rounds of ammo.
How do you deal with that?
I understand the sentiment and the question, DMac. But I think you have to do something that recognizes that continuing the same non-policy/inaction into the future will not help. The problem should be addressed prospectively, irrespective of the existence of assault weapons. As the mayor of Dayton says, "when is enough enough?" The Second Amendment is functionally the First now, and the only one that requires a sizable part of the citizenry to live and remain in fear that this trip to the Walmart, this day at school, this morning at the office, or this night at a bar may result in you and your loved ones getting murdered in little droves.

My daughter's best friend lives in Dayton, and the friend and her sisters regularly stop by Ned Peppers. My daughter woke this morning, texts furiously shooting around the country trying to make sure that this young woman, anyway, wasn't dead. Land of the free? You better be brave.
I get it, sc, the numbers just boggle my mind in that that's our starting point with gun control. A daunting task to say the least. While I fully understand that the gun is what's doing the killing(s) it's the person(s) pulling the trigger that has me completely baffled, and I tend to focus on that more on that than I do the gun. Am always curious about what kind of prescribed drugs the trigger pullers are, or have been, on. Maybe none, but I wouldn't bet on that.
This is only eight minutes long, if you just want to see the mass shootings/gun violence part (there's no graphic violence in the video) click on at 4:05. Frankly, I think it's worth it to watch the whole thing.
https://www.cchrflorida.org/antidepress ... shootings/
The 60s and 70s were violent times. A good part of the population was really pissed off (as they are now) civil rights, Vietnam, gays, etc. It was probably easier to get a gun back then than it is now, and I'd have to guess there were far fewer gun laws than there are today. As has been noted many times in the gun conversation, it was commonplace for HS students to have guns and ammo in their cars/trucks in the parking lot (knew many who did...all hunters of course), they had them in there when they stopped at the store or gas station too. Of course, the big difference is, no one was stopping in those places and going in and killing a whole bunch of people. This is why I struggle with focusing on the gun. In essence, the gun really hasn't changed much, but it sure as hell feels as if the people have.
I've got no answers.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

holmes435 wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:54 pm If you take away the guns, you still have an angry white guy who wants to harm people. They'll use IEDs, truck, pistols, knives, etc.

Treat the root cause and you don't need to take away a constitutional right. Gun control is focused on the symptom, not the disease.
True, but we can walk and chew gum on this. It's not an either/or situation.

Even most NRA members are in favor of increased 'gun control'.

Comprehensive background checks, elimination of the gun show loophole, hard nosed prosecution of gun seller violators, return of the assault weapon ban (I'm in favor of well regulated, range shooting), etc...none of which "take away a constitutional right".

But those measures, alone, won't stop the nut jobs, especially the ideologically motivated nut jobs. So, we need to go after the mental health issues, and we darn sure need to go after the groups and people who are fomenting extremist hate and bigotry claiming "1st Amendment" rights as they do so, yet know darn well they are encouraging these acts. We need to shut down the 'anonymous' posting of such hate, including the instruction on bomb-making, assault weapon modifications, body armor, etc...manuals for destruction... within our social media arena, whether in the major sites or the dark web area. The dark web, by definition, is all about illegality.

This requires looking this stuff in the eye and recognizing it for what it is. That includes the white supremacist/nativist terrorism. There are a bunch of flavors of this hateful ideology, but they share many common themes and they all de-humanize the Other.
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by a fan »

holmes435 wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:54 pm If you take away the guns, you still have an angry white guy who wants to harm people. They'll use IEDs, truck, pistols, knives, etc.

Treat the root cause and you don't need to take away a constitutional right. Gun control is focused on the symptom, not the disease.
To me this is the same solution as there is for pro lifers:

Namely: how fast would the liberals sign on for an Apollo-type program for American mental health? Start with Veterans. The bills would have across the board support from voters. Instead, we've had now four massive spending bills that no can say what's in them---meaning: filled with corruption and waste.

And for pro-lifers: how fast do you think liberal voters would sign up for an Apollo-type program for eliminating unwanted pregnancies? Abortions would fall off a cliff. I'd wager you could cut them by 75% or more. In Colorado we had (as in:past tense) this type of program at a State level via a grant from Warren Buffet.

I don't understand why we haven't already done these things. Well, outside of the fact that Congress "needs" these fights to get elected. Solving problems doesn't lead to votes, sadly.


https://www.denverpost.com/2017/11/30/c ... -cost-iud/
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youthathletics
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by youthathletics »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:08 pm
holmes435 wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:54 pm If you take away the guns, you still have an angry white guy who wants to harm people. They'll use IEDs, truck, pistols, knives, etc.

Treat the root cause and you don't need to take away a constitutional right. Gun control is focused on the symptom, not the disease.
True, but we can walk and chew gum on this. It's not an either/or situation.

Even most NRA members are in favor of increased 'gun control'.

Comprehensive background checks, elimination of the gun show loophole, hard nosed prosecution of gun seller violators, return of the assault weapon ban (I'm in favor of well regulated, range shooting), etc...none of which "take away a constitutional right".

But those measures, alone, won't stop the nut jobs, especially the ideologically motivated nut jobs. So, we need to go after the mental health issues, and we darn sure need to go after the groups and people who are fomenting extremist hate and bigotry claiming "1st Amendment" rights as they do so, yet know darn well they are encouraging these acts. We need to shut down the 'anonymous' posting of such hate, including the instruction on bomb-making, assault weapon modifications, body armor, etc...manuals for destruction... within our social media arena, whether in the major sites or the dark web area. The dark web, by definition, is all about illegality.

This requires looking this stuff in the eye and recognizing it for what it is. That includes the white supremacist/nativist terrorism. There are a bunch of flavors of this hateful ideology, but they share many common themes and they all de-humanize the Other.
Serious question. What causes all the shootings in Chicago each day?.....73 just this past week? Why is it not headline news each and every single day on ALL MSM networks to keep this in the news and draw attention for the need of gun/ammo background check change?

Is it because the shooters are primarily black and that is a touchy subject, is it because we can't also call them(insert racial/radical group) lunatics, is it because it is a liberal city, or just because they are not using an assault rifle?

Maybe it really just boils down that it must involve a white or brown man, an assault weapon or bomb, and more than 1-2 people at a given event.

Your point in larger RED is exactly why I posted this. The mere fact we ignore blacks killing blacks at an alarming rate....somehow makes the cries for change when we have events like this just seem condescending. No, I am not speaking to you or anyone here directly, just venting at the selective concern only when something can sell papers or increase ratings.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
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holmes435
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by holmes435 »

youthathletics wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:20 pm Serious question. What causes all the shootings in Chicago each day?.....73 just this past week? Why is it not headline news each and every single day on ALL MSM networks to keep this in the news and draw attention for the need of gun/ammo background check change?

Is it because the shooters are primarily black and that is a touchy subject, is it because we can't also call them(insert racial/radical group) lunatics, is it because it is a liberal city, or just because they are not using an assault rifle?

Maybe it really just boils down that it must involve a white or brown man, an assault weapon or bomb, and more than 1-2 people at a given event.

Your point in larger RED is exactly why I posted this. The mere fact we ignore blacks killing blacks at an alarming rate....somehow makes the cries for change when we have events like this just seem condescending. No, I am not speaking to you or anyone here directly, just venting at the selective concern only when something can sell papers or increase ratings.
A big cause is the cycle of poverty and lack of opportunities. Throw in the war on drugs and broken incarceration policies and crime boils over early and often. These kids are starting in the batter's box while we're starting on second base.

It's not headline news because it's normalized - it happens often so it's not news. Mass shootings don't happen a lot relative to gang / drug / economic crime shootings so they garner attention. Next add in the fact that white people are doing a lot of the mass shootings and you get the disparity.

I agree that the cries of change are misguided. AR-15's are a small fraction of gun violence but they're public enemy #1 for the Dem's. There's a lack of logic to this, which is understandable because it's a highly emotional subject.
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CU77
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by CU77 »

youthathletics wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:20 pmSerious question. What causes all the shootings in Chicago each day?
Lack of economic opportunity caused by decades of structural racism (redlining etc being only the most recent and least violent aspect of it).

And before someone blames Democratic gubmint: why are blacks in R-controlled places like Alabama and Mississippi not doing better?

And if the Ds are so bad, why do they keep getting re-elected? Do you claim that blacks are not bright enough to figure it out? If that's not it, what is?
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youthathletics
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by youthathletics »

So are you giving blacks a pass or justification “of gun violence” (let’s stay on topic and keep politics out of this), for all the reasons you each listed?
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
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CU77
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by CU77 »

No pass, no justification. I want to confiscate their guns just like I want to confiscate the white supremacists guns.
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CU77
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by CU77 »

For two years, we’ve been studying the life histories of mass shooters in the United States for a project funded by the National Institute of Justice, the research arm of the U.S. Department of Justice. We’ve built a database dating back to 1966 of every mass shooter who shot and killed four or more people in a public place, and every shooting incident at schools, workplaces, and places of worship since 1999. We’ve interviewed incarcerated perpetrators and their families, shooting survivors and first responders. We’ve read media and social media, manifestos, suicide notes, trial transcripts and medical records.

Our goal has been to find new, data-driven pathways for preventing such shootings. Although we haven’t found that mass shooters are all alike, our data do reveal four commonalities among the perpetrators of nearly all the mass shootings we studied.

First, the vast majority of mass shooters in our study experienced early childhood trauma and exposure to violence at a young age. The nature of their exposure included parental suicide, physical or sexual abuse, neglect, domestic violence, and/or severe bullying. The trauma was often a precursor to mental health concerns, including depression, anxiety, thought disorders or suicidality.


Second, practically every mass shooter we studied had reached an identifiable crisis point in the weeks or months leading up to the shooting. They often had become angry and despondent because of a specific grievance. For workplace shooters, a change in job status was frequently the trigger. For shooters in other contexts, relationship rejection or loss often played a role. Such crises were, in many cases, communicated to others through a marked change in behavior, an expression of suicidal thoughts or plans, or specific threats of violence.

Third, most of the shooters had studied the actions of other shooters and sought validation for their motives. People in crisis have always existed. But in the age of 24-hour rolling news and social media, there are scripts to follow that promise notoriety in death. Societal fear and fascination with mass shootings partly drives the motivation to commit them. Hence, as we have seen in the last week, mass shootings tend to come in clusters. They are socially contagious. Perpetrators study other perpetrators and model their acts after previous shootings. Many are radicalized online in their search for validation from others that their will to murder is justified.

Fourth, the shooters all had the means to carry out their plans. Once someone decides life is no longer worth living and that murdering others would be a proper revenge, only means and opportunity stand in the way of another mass shooting. Is an appropriate shooting site accessible? Can the would-be shooter obtain firearms? In 80% of school shootings, perpetrators got their weapons from family members, according to our data. Workplace shooters tended to use handguns they legally owned. Other public shooters were more likely to acquire them illegally.

So what do these commonalities tell us about how to prevent future shootings?

One step needs to be depriving potential shooters of the means to carry out their plans. Potential shooting sites can be made less accessible with visible security measures such as metal detectors and police officers. And weapons need to be better controlled, through age restrictions, permit-to-purchase licensing, universal background checks, safe storage campaigns and red-flag laws — measures that help control firearm access for vulnerable individuals or people in crisis.

Another step is to try to make it more difficult for potential perpetrators to find validation for their planned actions. Media campaigns like #nonotoriety are helping starve perpetrators of the oxygen of publicity, and technology companies are increasingly being held accountable for facilitating mass violence. But we all can slow the spread of mass shootings by changing how we consume, produce, and distribute violent content on media and social media. Don’t like or share violent content. Don’t read or share killers’ manifestos and other hate screeds posted on the internet. We also need to study our current approaches. For example, do lockdown and active shooter drills help children prepare for the worst or hand potential shooters the script for mass violence by normalizing or rehearsing it?

We also need to, as a society, be more proactive. Most mass public shooters are suicidal, and their crises are often well known to others before the shooting occurs. The vast majority of mass shooters leak their plans ahead of time. People who see or sense something is wrong, however, may not always say something to someone owing to the absence of clear reporting protocols or fear of overreaction and unduly labeling a person as a potential threat. Proactive violence prevention starts with schools, colleges, churches and employers initiating conversations about mental health and establishing systems for identifying individuals in crisis, reporting concerns and reaching out — not with punitive measures but with resources and long-term intervention. Everyone should be trained to recognize the signs of a crisis.

Proactivity needs to extend also to the traumas in early life that are common to so many mass shooters. Those early exposures to violence need addressing when they happen with ready access to social services and high-quality, affordable mental health treatment in the community. School counselors and social workers, employee wellness programs, projects that teach resilience and social emotional learning, and policies and practices that decrease the stigma around mental illness will not just help prevent mass shootings, but will also help promote the social and emotional success of all Americans.

Our data show that mass shooters have much in common. Instead of simply rehearsing for the inevitable, we need to use that data to drive effective prevention strategies.

Jillian Peterson is a psychologist and professor of criminology and criminal justice at Hamline University. James Densley is a sociologist and professor of criminal justice at Metropolitan State University. Together, they run the Violence Project.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2 ... oters-data
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by a fan »

CU77 spells out the liberal perspective in two quick sentences. I don't know if you don't know any liberals, youthathletics......but all of them that I know are more horrified by the non-stop gun violence than the stuff that pops up in the headlines. When they see the mass shooting they think "holy hell, what will it take to change our system for handling guns?"

They'd take almost all access to all guns away in a heartbeat if you gave them the chance, just like Australia did. No hypocrisy there.

This ain't on the libs. This is on us moderates and conservatives who believe gun ownership is ok to come up with a better system.

Or, to throw up our hands and admit this is our future.

As for "giving passes"------how fast would conservative America move heaven and Earth if all of 2019's mass shootings were committed by Muslims? Instead, because these are white nationalists?......
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youthathletics
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by youthathletics »

Thanks CU77. Coincidentally, all 4 findings in the study ha e similarities to those expressed here about black on black/street crime.

So if black kids/young men have growing up issues and shoot people for stupid reasons, does that differ from white or brown kids that also have different but equally as frustrating issues that have caused them to ignore the value of human life and empathy? Based on the study, it appears so.

As much as I appreciate your idea of banning all guns, which would not hurt my feelings one bit, it will likely never happen. So we need to turn our attention to the next best thing.

To me, this is where our attention should be driven towards. Family, values, teaching more than math and science to kids, stop worrying so much about scores and more importantly money and things.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
seacoaster
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by seacoaster »

"This is on us moderates and conservatives who believe gun ownership is ok to come up with a better system."

Concur completely. Those folks need to figure a way to better secure and establish the safety of the citizens to whom gun ownership is not an interest or an option. I don't want to own a gun -- simply to protect myself from murderers. I don't want to carry...when I go grocery shopping and when I have a beer with my son. There should be, with the Second Amendment, the same sorts of balancing tests that are the earmarks of many of not most of our constitutional rights. Even the late, sainted Scalia left room for significant regulation of guns and gun ownership; the gun lobby just removed every spine on the right of center political class.

So called "black/street crime" is not relevant to the issue of why people walk into schools and hardware stores and bars and movie theaters and workplaces and shoot everyone they can as fast as they can.
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Re: Sensible Gun Control

Post by Trinity »

Trump golfed all day. Then promised to address the mental illness issue tomorrow. Not his. His supplicant’s. I don’t imagine he’ll sing Amazing Grace.
“I don’t take responsibility at all.” —Donald J Trump
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