Was that you, the old fat guy out in Portland with the black mask on hitting patriots with metal pipes 72?
Never too late for anarchy
You can't spell "patriotic" without "riot" can you 72?
Was that you, the old fat guy out in Portland with the black mask on hitting patriots with metal pipes 72?
My father told this story only once at my sisters wedding rehearsal party back in 1974. The old man had a couple of pops in him and several of the WW2 folks there started jibber jabbing. They had liberated a town in Germany towards the end of the war. White flags in all the windows declared it an open city... that meant there would be no resistance. A sniper shoots one of their men and kills him. They drag a very young Hitler Nazi youth laughing and smiling into the street very happy about what he had just done. The old mans platoon sgt. pulls out his 45, walks up and shoots the kid in the head. Perfectly legal for a violation of a declaration of an open city. Where do you draw the line? Very good question MD. We train these people to kill and send them over to wherever to do what our nation trained them to do. If you don't like the results then don't send them over there in the first place.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:46 pm This conversation is getting a bit gross.
Especially the personal cracks.
Do we at least all agree that if Gallagher had done what all these fellow Seals said, that's not excused by 'flying lead'?
Or how about that sometimes warriors go bad? Even US ones?
History would certainly suggest that it happens, even among the most disciplined and professional of military organizations.
Instead of personal insults, how about sharing with us where the line really should be drawn.
This bit of dialogue from one of all time great films IMHO, puts into words what is being discussed here about as well as can be...cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:39 pmMy father told this story only once at my sisters wedding rehearsal party back in 1974. The old man had a couple of pops in him and several of the WW2 folks there started jibber jabbing. They had liberated a town in Germany towards the end of the war. White flags in all the windows declared it an open city... that meant there would be no resistance. A sniper shoots one of their men and kills him. They drag a very young Hitler Nazi youth laughing and smiling into the street very happy about what he had just done. The old mans platoon sgt. pulls out his 45, walks up and shoots the kid in the head. Perfectly legal for a violation of a declaration of an open city. Where do you draw the line? Very good question MD. We train these people to kill and send them over to wherever to do what our nation trained them to do. If you don't like the results then don't send them over there in the first place.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:46 pm This conversation is getting a bit gross.
Especially the personal cracks.
Do we at least all agree that if Gallagher had done what all these fellow Seals said, that's not excused by 'flying lead'?
Or how about that sometimes warriors go bad? Even US ones?
History would certainly suggest that it happens, even among the most disciplined and professional of military organizations.
Instead of personal insults, how about sharing with us where the line really should be drawn.
When I did my JOTC training in Panama way back in 1980 the cadre there were all hard core Vietnam vets. I remember them "explaining" the rules for assaulting through an objective. You could shoot, stab, and do whatever you wanted to the bad guys until the objective was "secured" Once the objective was secured you had to treat the people you were just trying to kill 1 minute ago with kid gloves. When some of us young privates questioned the sense in this a really rough around the edges SFC said something like... "those are the f***ing rules... do all your killing before the objective has been taken after that your ass is grass and the army is the lawnmower. You are more correct than you know MD... you tell me where that line is drawn? I lived through it and I never figured it out.
Great movie. Beautiful and tragic.tech37 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:40 amThis bit of dialogue from one of all time great films IMHO, puts into words what is being discussed here about as well as can be...cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:39 pmMy father told this story only once at my sisters wedding rehearsal party back in 1974. The old man had a couple of pops in him and several of the WW2 folks there started jibber jabbing. They had liberated a town in Germany towards the end of the war. White flags in all the windows declared it an open city... that meant there would be no resistance. A sniper shoots one of their men and kills him. They drag a very young Hitler Nazi youth laughing and smiling into the street very happy about what he had just done. The old mans platoon sgt. pulls out his 45, walks up and shoots the kid in the head. Perfectly legal for a violation of a declaration of an open city. Where do you draw the line? Very good question MD. We train these people to kill and send them over to wherever to do what our nation trained them to do. If you don't like the results then don't send them over there in the first place.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:46 pm This conversation is getting a bit gross.
Especially the personal cracks.
Do we at least all agree that if Gallagher had done what all these fellow Seals said, that's not excused by 'flying lead'?
Or how about that sometimes warriors go bad? Even US ones?
History would certainly suggest that it happens, even among the most disciplined and professional of military organizations.
Instead of personal insults, how about sharing with us where the line really should be drawn.
When I did my JOTC training in Panama way back in 1980 the cadre there were all hard core Vietnam vets. I remember them "explaining" the rules for assaulting through an objective. You could shoot, stab, and do whatever you wanted to the bad guys until the objective was "secured" Once the objective was secured you had to treat the people you were just trying to kill 1 minute ago with kid gloves. When some of us young privates questioned the sense in this a really rough around the edges SFC said something like... "those are the f***ing rules... do all your killing before the objective has been taken after that your ass is grass and the army is the lawnmower. You are more correct than you know MD... you tell me where that line is drawn? I lived through it and I never figured it out.
Breaker Morant, 1980
Major Thomas: The fact of the matter is that war changes men's natures. The barbarities of war are seldom committed by abnormal men. The tragedy of war is that these horrors are committed by normal men in abnormal situations. Situations in which the ebb and flow of everyday life have departed and have been replaced by a constant round of fear and anger, blood and death.
Drawn lines may be irrelevant.
The puzzling aspect is that he confirmed the stabbing and simply said that he actually, secretly, finished the guy off. So, where's the punishment of Gallagher for the stabbing, if not 'murder'?OCanada wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:18 am Why were the charges brought in the first place. Was it not because fellow SEALS raised the issue because in their opinion his behavior was so outrageous as to rise to the level of criminality. In their opinion. In order to acquit, the testimony of people he served with was discounted. Many of then as I recall. That has upset a number of people.
I suggest people who are interested read the available information and decide for themselves. The Hail Mary pass that was the sudden surprise witness at the last minute for a miracle save....
We certainly agree that there will be those who do cross the line.
Never served, but the one thing I"m sure of is that if you put me in a real war zone where friends are getting killed, the odds of my being able to have the same moral lines that I had before hitting that war zone are very low.tech37 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:40 am This bit of dialogue from one of all time great films IMHO, puts into words what is being discussed here about as well as can be...
Breaker Morant, 1980
Major Thomas: The fact of the matter is that war changes men's natures. The barbarities of war are seldom committed by abnormal men. The tragedy of war is that these horrors are committed by normal men in abnormal situations. Situations in which the ebb and flow of everyday life have departed and have been replaced by a constant round of fear and anger, blood and death.
Drawn lines may be irrelevant.
Ames argues that Bergdahl was a contradictory character, who never should have been accepted into the military and sent to Afghanistan. As a recruit in the US Coast Guard, he lasted only a month before being discharged. Nevertheless, the Army, so desperate for soldiers that it lowered its standards, later accepted him.
From his arrival in Afghanistan in May 2009 he questioned the rationale behind US military involvement in that country. Ames says that Bergdahl had always planned to walk away from his remote military post into the desolate countryside.