Would BC have at least one national title with a different coach?

[DMac]

That's an awful lot of maybe for often thinking they would have won one.
Maybe they wouldn't have done one bit better than G. Gait did too.

[wlaxnut]

That's an awful lot of maybe for often thinking they would have won one.
Maybe they wouldn't have done one bit better than G. Gait did too.

True--

[wlaxphan20]

Bad decisions in game has been brought up frequently in certain sections of this thread. My question is more at the strategy or system Acacia chose. Maybe it was flawed. Maybe it wasn't a sound game plan against Maryland, or JMU, or UNC on that given day.

Been thinking more and more about it. BC's misstep in the championship may not have even been tactical. They just beat a well known, bitter rival who has given them fits the past several years in UNC in double overtime. When those two play it's easy to see even for those watching the stream that the game has emotions running much higher than any other game. Those types of games can be physically draining but even more so mentally and emotionally draining. It's possible they just came out flat while Maryland came out with their hair on fire. Yes the coach needs to get their players mentally prepared, but just how much can they do? It's not just because they are young female athletes either, this happens at all levels of play. The first example that pops into my head is the Minnesota Vikings in the 2017 NFC Championship game.

And sometimes close wins can have the opposite effect. I was fully ready for UNC to be pummeled in 2016 after they played close with PSU in the semifinals and coughed up a 5 goal lead in the final 15 minutes and nearly lost. Then they turn around and stun Maryland from start to finish. I don't think their response was solely because of something Jenny did, I would credit the players and their mentality and resiliency. They also had a veteran senior class that won their first natty, so maybe therein lies the difference?

It's all just speculation, just trying to consider all facets of the game. Wlaxnut, you pose some great questions that can be polarizing at times for some of us, I'll cop to it personally, but I appreciate the discussion. Goodness knows February is a loooooooong ways away!

[wlaxnut]

Bad decisions in game has been brought up frequently in certain sections of this thread. My question is more at the strategy or system Acacia chose. Maybe it was flawed. Maybe it wasn't a sound game plan against Maryland, or JMU, or UNC on that given day.

Been thinking more and more about it. BC's misstep in the championship may not have even been tactical. They just beat a well known, bitter rival who has given them fits the past several years in UNC in double overtime. When those two play it's easy to see even for those watching the stream that the game has emotions running much higher than any other game. Those types of games can be physically draining but even more so mentally and emotionally draining. It's possible they just came out flat while Maryland came out with their hair on fire. Yes the coach needs to get their players mentally prepared, but just how much can they do? It's not just because they are young female athletes either, this happens at all levels of play. The first example that pops into my head is the Minnesota Vikings in the 2017 NFC Championship game.

And sometimes close wins can have the opposite effect. I was fully ready for UNC to be pummeled in 2016 after they played close with PSU in the semifinals and coughed up a 5 goal lead in the final 15 minutes and nearly lost. Then they turn around and stun Maryland from start to finish. I don't think their response was solely because of something Jenny did, I would credit the players and their mentality and resiliency. They also had a veteran senior class that won their first natty, so maybe therein lies the difference?

It's all just speculation, just trying to consider all facets of the game. Wlaxnut, you pose some great questions that can be polarizing at times for some of us, I'll cop to it personally, but I appreciate the discussion. Goodness knows February is a loooooooong ways away!

Hadn't considered the potential hangover after the epic battle vs the Tar Heels. Good points wlaxphan.
Indeed--February is a long way off--7 months to be exact.

[Doid23]

A related point is if you had asked the question about Gait would so many people have been offended or upset about the question? My guess is no. Why? Because he’s a man — a big, tough man. AWW is a woman (albeit an obviously tough woman), and I’ve observed a paternalistic sentiment that seems to pervade this wlax board. People ask similar questions— in fact just state the same type of question as fact — all the time on the men’s board about male coaches without the same offense taken. I’m not saying we should start being brutally harsh with female coaches and players. I’m just noting what I think is a clear difference in tone and attitude toward men and women in sports.

This is a point I’ve made before, but I’ll continue to make the observation as it occurs to me because I’m intrigued by gender issues in sports.

Who on this thread is offended or upset? I think that's your bias, not any posters on this thread.

There was a strong reaction by some to the question that wlaxfan posed. Read the thread.

*wlaxnut

This is true, Doid23. PLENTY of strong reaction. I concur with Badlands recommendation—and start at the beginning.

Start at the beginning? I was the first reply to the post, and have been enagaged in the entire thread.
The point isn’t whether there was a strong reaction, Badlands point is that people were offended at the question due to the coach being a woman. Rather than telling me to read the post, feel free to provide examples in the post where someone was offended by the question, versus disagreeing with your opinion.

[Badlands]

Whatever, man. I’m not going to get sucked into an inane debate with you about the differences among “offended,” “upset,” and “strong reactions.” Happy Fourth!

[wlaxnut]

Whatever, man. I’m not going to get sucked into an inane debate with you about the differences among “offended,” “upset,” and “strong reactions.” Happy Fourth!

Love it

[Bart]

Bad decisions in game has been brought up frequently in certain sections of this thread. My question is more at the strategy or system Acacia chose. Maybe it was flawed. Maybe it wasn't a sound game plan against Maryland, or JMU, or UNC on that given day.

Have been watching this for a while and this one really got my eye. If the strategy or system was flawed by the coach then it is my bet is that BC would not have made it to that point in the past three seasons. The system, the strategy that the coach chose got them to the championship game.

[wlaxnut]

Bad decisions in game has been brought up frequently in certain sections of this thread. My question is more at the strategy or system Acacia chose. Maybe it was flawed. Maybe it wasn't a sound game plan against Maryland, or JMU, or UNC on that given day.

Have been watching this for a while and this one really got my eye. If the strategy or system was flawed by the coach then it is my bet is that BC would not have made it to that point in the past three seasons. The system, the strategy that the coach chose got them to the championship game.

Got them there. That means a lot less if you don't win it. Just ask Buffalo Bills fans. Sure--Marv Levy and Jim Kelly got them to the Super Bowl four straight years but they never finished the job. We don't look back on the Buffalo Bills as a success. Granted, collegiate sports is different in many respects, but the fact still remains, if you get to the title game three years in a row and have nothing to show for it but three consolation trophies, I look at that as an underachievement, and a flawed system/strategy--not as a success.

[Dr. Tact]

Bad decisions in game has been brought up frequently in certain sections of this thread. My question is more at the strategy or system Acacia chose. Maybe it was flawed. Maybe it wasn't a sound game plan against Maryland, or JMU, or UNC on that given day.

Well, you seem to have different thoughts (see your System comment below). I think I could agree with "maybe it wasnt a sound game plan against Maryland, or JMU, or UNC on that given day.

Have been watching this for a while and this one really got my eye. If the strategy or system was flawed by the coach then it is my bet is that BC would not have made it to that point in the past three seasons. The system, the strategy that the coach chose got them to the championship game.

I agree completely.

Got them there. That means a lot less if you don't win it. Just ask Buffalo Bills fans. Sure--Marv Levy and Jim Kelly got them to the Super Bowl four straight years but they never finished the job. We don't look back on the Buffalo Bills as a success. Granted, collegiate sports is different in many respects, but the fact still remains, if you get to the title game three years in a row and have nothing to show for it but three consolation trophies, I look at that as an underachievement, and a flawed system/strategy--not as a success.

Being one of the top two teams in the country for three years straight is success. No other way to describe it. [ I enjoy your points of view, but I am going to say this anyway ] Your argument of underachievement is kind of silly . As I said in a previous post, if you asked any D1 coach (any coach) if they would measure making it to the Championship as a success ( Let alone 3 years in a row ), I would expect that most of them would say yes. There probably would be a fair amount of them that would qualify that with something like "but winning the championship is more successful" or, "winning the Championship is our goal each year". I doubt many would publicly say "anything short of winning a championship is a failure/underachievement." That is just my opinion.

Maybe the BC team was disappointed and maybe their focused goal was to win one of those, after getting so close, but in the big picture, they were highly successful. Perhaps BC's goals were that they must win a Championship or consider the whole year a failure, but I doubt it. The System/Strategy/Coaching got them there by beating almost everyone except in the final games of ACC and NCAA . What system/strategy would you have them change in the Championships? What magic would have caused them to get over the hump? I sure dont know the intricacies of coaching the game that would let me state that the system/strategy/coaching needed fixing or that Coach X would have been the answer....but that is just me - an old lax dad who yells "wheels" at the most inappropriate times .

I think its great that you, as a fan, wish they could have won one of those. If they were my favorite team, or if my daughter played there, I might be looking at the losses with a similar disappointment. That said, I would still see the forest through the trees. That program has made tremendous strides and is highly successful. Maybe next year they will win without the big 3 because of the system....maybe not, because of the absence of the top 3. I dont know...Either way, if I had a blue chip HS player, I would certainly want her to go to a Successful program like BC.

Nut - You keep this forum moving and shaking and I appreciate your thoughts (even if I disagree occasionally)

[wlaxnut]

Bad decisions in game has been brought up frequently in certain sections of this thread. My question is more at the strategy or system Acacia chose. Maybe it was flawed. Maybe it wasn't a sound game plan against Maryland, or JMU, or UNC on that given day.

Well, you seem to have different thoughts (see your System comment below). I think I could agree with "maybe it wasnt a sound game plan against Maryland, or JMU, or UNC on that given day.

Have been watching this for a while and this one really got my eye. If the strategy or system was flawed by the coach then it is my bet is that BC would not have made it to that point in the past three seasons. The system, the strategy that the coach chose got them to the championship game.

I agree completely.

Got them there. That means a lot less if you don't win it. Just ask Buffalo Bills fans. Sure--Marv Levy and Jim Kelly got them to the Super Bowl four straight years but they never finished the job. We don't look back on the Buffalo Bills as a success. Granted, collegiate sports is different in many respects, but the fact still remains, if you get to the title game three years in a row and have nothing to show for it but three consolation trophies, I look at that as an underachievement, and a flawed system/strategy--not as a success.

Being one of the top two teams in the country for three years straight is success. No other way to describe it. [ I enjoy your points of view, but I am going to say this anyway ] Your argument of underachievement is kind of silly . As I said in a previous post, if you asked any D1 coach (any coach) if they would measure making it to the Championship as a success ( Let alone 3 years in a row ), I would expect that most of them would say yes. There probably would be a fair amount of them that would qualify that with something like "but winning the championship is more successful" or, "winning the Championship is our goal each year". I doubt many would publicly say "anything short of winning a championship is a failure/underachievement." That is just my opinion.

Maybe the BC team was disappointed and maybe their focused goal was to win one of those, after getting so close, but in the big picture, they were highly successful. Perhaps BC's goals were that they must win a Championship or consider the whole year a failure, but I doubt it. The System/Strategy/Coaching got them there by beating almost everyone except in the final games of ACC and NCAA . What system/strategy would you have them change in the Championships? What magic would have caused them to get over the hump? I sure dont know the intricacies of coaching the game that would let me state that the system/strategy/coaching needed fixing or that Coach X would have been the answer....but that is just me - an old lax dad who yells "wheels" at the most inappropriate times .

I think its great that you, as a fan, wish they could have won one of those. If they were my favorite team, or if my daughter played there, I might be looking at the losses with a similar disappointment. That said, I would still see the forest through the trees. That program has made tremendous strides and is highly successful. Maybe next year they will win without the big 3 because of the system....maybe not, because of the absence of the top 3. I dont know...Either way, if I had a blue chip HS player, I would certainly want her to go to a Successful program like BC.

Nut - You keep this forum moving and shaking and I appreciate your thoughts (even if I disagree occasionally)

Thanks, Doc. You make some interesting arguments. I appreciate your perspective and I agree with a lot of what you said. I also appreciate all the thought you put into this response. From one old geezer to another--glad you're here too. Happy 4th to you and your family!

[wlaxnut]

Bad decisions in game has been brought up frequently in certain sections of this thread. My question is more at the strategy or system Acacia chose. Maybe it was flawed. Maybe it wasn't a sound game plan against Maryland, or JMU, or UNC on that given day.

Well, you seem to have different thoughts (see your System comment below). I think I could agree with "maybe it wasnt a sound game plan against Maryland, or JMU, or UNC on that given day.

Have been watching this for a while and this one really got my eye. If the strategy or system was flawed by the coach then it is my bet is that BC would not have made it to that point in the past three seasons. The system, the strategy that the coach chose got them to the championship game.

I agree completely.

Got them there. That means a lot less if you don't win it. Just ask Buffalo Bills fans. Sure--Marv Levy and Jim Kelly got them to the Super Bowl four straight years but they never finished the job. We don't look back on the Buffalo Bills as a success. Granted, collegiate sports is different in many respects, but the fact still remains, if you get to the title game three years in a row and have nothing to show for it but three consolation trophies, I look at that as an underachievement, and a flawed system/strategy--not as a success.

Being one of the top two teams in the country for three years straight is success. No other way to describe it. [ I enjoy your points of view, but I am going to say this anyway ] Your argument of underachievement is kind of silly . As I said in a previous post, if you asked any D1 coach (any coach) if they would measure making it to the Championship as a success ( Let alone 3 years in a row ), I would expect that most of them would say yes. There probably would be a fair amount of them that would qualify that with something like "but winning the championship is more successful" or, "winning the Championship is our goal each year". I doubt many would publicly say "anything short of winning a championship is a failure/underachievement." That is just my opinion.

Maybe the BC team was disappointed and maybe their focused goal was to win one of those, after getting so close, but in the big picture, they were highly successful. Perhaps BC's goals were that they must win a Championship or consider the whole year a failure, but I doubt it. The System/Strategy/Coaching got them there by beating almost everyone except in the final games of ACC and NCAA . What system/strategy would you have them change in the Championships? What magic would have caused them to get over the hump? I sure dont know the intricacies of coaching the game that would let me state that the system/strategy/coaching needed fixing or that Coach X would have been the answer....but that is just me - an old lax dad who yells "wheels" at the most inappropriate times .

I think its great that you, as a fan, wish they could have won one of those. If they were my favorite team, or if my daughter played there, I might be looking at the losses with a similar disappointment. That said, I would still see the forest through the trees. That program has made tremendous strides and is highly successful. Maybe next year they will win without the big 3 because of the system....maybe not, because of the absence of the top 3. I dont know...Either way, if I had a blue chip HS player, I would certainly want her to go to a Successful program like BC.

Nut - You keep this forum moving and shaking and I appreciate your thoughts (even if I disagree occasionally)

One thing I keep coming back to, which makes me feel strongly about the question of underachieving, are the words and tone of coach Acacia herself here, where she says at :29 seconds of the post game press conference, "I wish I could have done more, three years in a row." Those don't sound like the words of one who feels she has achieved her goal, or the teams goal.

https://youtu.be/hq0lBQ3qpsc

I have trouble communicating subtle points of distinction. Perhaps that's the reason my question seems silly. But I can't interpret the words and tone of coach Acacia in any other way apart from her acknowledgement that she underachieved, and by logical extension--her team.

[Batman]

Dr. Tact - I agree with your points but disagree with you and Seacoaster. Calling out Jenny Levy with top recruit after top recruit - WHAT ABOUT NOTRE DAME - Oh Yes I can recall from Tracy to Halfpenny Top Rercuit after Top Recruit - And Guess What - No Final four.

[Dr. Tact]

Dr. Tact - I agree with your points but disagree with you and Seacoaster. Calling out Jenny Levy with top recruit after top recruit - WHAT ABOUT NOTRE DAME - Oh Yes I can recall from Tracy to Halfpenny Top Rercuit after Top Recruit - And Guess What - No Final four.

I agree with you. I am no fan of ND

[wlaxnut]

What is it about the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame that you don’t like?

[Dr. Tact]

What is it about the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame that you don’t like?

Well, mostly stemming from their football program and its own National TV contract. Then the university's move to the ACC but only in non-football sports (at least in revenue sharing).

So for me growing up, it was "who was your favorite college football team? Anyone playing Notre Dame."

That is my bias. I have no real gripe with ND Women's lax. No feelings one way or the other, just not a fan. Daughter played with A.A. at a week long tournament in Vail. Nice girl, great parents. I wish her and the golden domers success, just wont be rooting for them.

Juvenile reason(s), I know, but you asked...

[wlaxnut]

What is it about the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame that you don’t like?

Well, mostly stemming from their football program and its own National TV contract. Then the university's move to the ACC but only in non-football sports (at least in revenue sharing).

So for me growing up, it was who was your favorite college football team? Anyone playing Notre Dame.

That is my bias. I have no real gripe with ND Women's lax. No feelings one way or the other, just not a fan. Daughter played with A.A. at a week long tournament. Nice girl, great parents. I wish her and the golden domers success, just wont be rooting for them.

Juvenile reason(s), I know, but you asked...

I don't find it juvenile at all. I also dislike Notre Dame in every sport besides women's lacrosse.
(And that's exactly the answer I give when I'm asked about my favorite NFL team--anyone playing New England.)

[Dr. Tact]

I don't find it juvenile at all. I also dislike Notre Dame in every sport besides women's lacrosse.
(And that's exactly the answer I give when I'm asked about my favorite NFL team--anyone playing New England.)

lol...for me its anyone playing Dallas....long suffering 'Skins fan...

[wlaxnut]

I don't find it juvenile at all. I also dislike Notre Dame in every sport besides women's lacrosse.
(And that's exactly the answer I give when I'm asked about my favorite NFL team--anyone playing New England.)

lol...for me its anyone playing Dallas....long suffering 'Skins fan...

Yep--I always root against Dallas, too (unless they're playing the Patriots, that is.)

[BCLaxfan02]

BC had two things working against them in the Final. 1) Playing two days after an epic 2OT win against their conference rival and 2) a de-facto away game in Baltimore. Oh and the refs. Make that 3 Coaching is top notch.