All Things Russia & Ukraine

[jhu72]

What makes anyone think the current administration can negotiate any meaningful arms agreement with any of those 4 is beyond me. NO ONE TRUSTS TRUMP or the UNITED STATES (with possible exception of Vlad). EVERYONE IS A BETTER NEGOTIATOR THAN TRUMP IS. North Korea has already gotten the better of him - quite time. They have a small number of nukes, the design has been tested and the ability to produce more. But this makes all the Trumpnista sanguine, at least they aren't testing any more. The goal post moving sets a new world record. In return we got love letters from Dear Leader.

[old salt]

OS is becoming a caricature. Czech? Havel and the Czech spring in 1968. The Hungarian Revolution in 1956 when Ike failed the Hungarians. The Slovenians? Might not surprise you to learn I have friends there. They want nothing to do with Russia. We sponsored a Croatian student. They don’t either. No country wants to be under the heel of the Russian boot you so much want to put them under. Pathetic and morally bankrupt.

It’s interesting how so many OS posts support Russia’s Geo political goals

The analogy was that the citizens of Czechoslovakia chose to divide their country along ethnic lines (not that they should be part of Russia), just like the Balkans did, just like the ethnic Russians in E Ukraine aspire to do. When the USSR came apart, the ethnic Russians of E Ukraine were among the millions of ethnic Russians trapped inside the borders of ersatz nation states that had no significant history of independence. Other than the 3 Baltic states, who received massive aid to join NATO & the EU, all the other former Soviet Republics have become corrupt authoritarian clones of the USSR, where life is no better than in Russia,

My posts are not based on supporting Russia's geopolitical goals. They're based on supporting long term US geopolitical goals (as opposed to revenge over attempted election interference). They're based on historical precedence & the best way to contain Russia moving forward, rather than slipping into another intractable Cold War. Putin won't be in power forever. We will need the good will of the Russian people when he passes from the scene. Trump's victory was celebrated by the Russian people because they anticipated improved relations & because they anticipated a President who would treat their country with the respect due a super power with a proud history who sacrificed greatly as an ally in the Great War. We are squandering a tremendous opportunity because of petty partisan politics. We already have an axis of enemies in China, Iran & N Korea. We're driving Russia into that axis. We will come to regret our current Russophobia, which has washed away 2 decades of good will following the Cold War. Putin's a bad actor, but so are the leaders of China, Iran & N Korea. We need to engage & deal with them all.

So, you're recommending that we should lift sanctions on Iran, perhaps have bunch of meetings between Khamenei and Trump with no notes, after all Khamenei "won't be in power forever"?

I'd recommend lifting some sanctions on Iran if it reopened negotiations on a long term JCPOA Treaty, that included ballistic missiles & nuc warhead development (that could attain Senate ratification).

I'd recommend lifting some sanctions of Russia to reopen negotiations on --
-- (1) an extended, updated START treaty
-- (2) a convention arms limitation agreement, demilitarizing both sides of NATO's E border

So, we tear up a deal, impose sanctions, and we offer what to the Iranians?
We go back to where we were before we tore up the deal?
Yeah, that's gonna work.

And we're going to do exactly what the Russians want, and in return we lift the sanctions?
Putin's chuckling on that deal.

We already did START, 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_START

But, Trump tears up that one too:
Future[edit]
According to a Reuters report on February 9, 2017, in US President Donald Trump's first 60-minute telephone call with Russian President Vladimir Putin, Putin inquired about extending New START. President Trump attacked the treaty, claiming that it favored Russia and was "one of several bad deals negotiated by the Obama administration".[74]

Anyone actually think that Trump won't do exactly as Putin tells him to do?

START expires in 2021. It needs to be extended & to encompass new weapons.

[Typical Lax Dad]

OS is becoming a caricature. Czech? Havel and the Czech spring in 1968. The Hungarian Revolution in 1956 when Ike failed the Hungarians. The Slovenians? Might not surprise you to learn I have friends there. They want nothing to do with Russia. We sponsored a Croatian student. They don’t either. No country wants to be under the heel of the Russian boot you so much want to put them under. Pathetic and morally bankrupt.

It’s interesting how so many OS posts support Russia’s Geo political goals

The analogy was that the citizens of Czechoslovakia chose to divide their country along ethnic lines (not that they should be part of Russia), just like the Balkans did, just like the ethnic Russians in E Ukraine aspire to do. When the USSR came apart, the ethnic Russians of E Ukraine were among the millions of ethnic Russians trapped inside the borders of ersatz nation states that had no significant history of independence. Other than the 3 Baltic states, who received massive aid to join NATO & the EU, all the other former Soviet Republics have become corrupt authoritarian clones of the USSR, where life is no better than in Russia,

My posts are not based on supporting Russia's geopolitical goals. They're based on supporting long term US geopolitical goals (as opposed to revenge over attempted election interference). They're based on historical precedence & the best way to contain Russia moving forward, rather than slipping into another intractable Cold War. Putin won't be in power forever. We will need the good will of the Russian people when he passes from the scene. Trump's victory was celebrated by the Russian people because they anticipated improved relations & because they anticipated a President who would treat their country with the respect due a super power with a proud history who sacrificed greatly as an ally in the Great War. We are squandering a tremendous opportunity because of petty partisan politics. We already have an axis of enemies in China, Iran & N Korea. We're driving Russia into that axis. We will come to regret our current Russophobia, which has washed away 2 decades of good will following the Cold War. Putin's a bad actor, but so are the leaders of China, Iran & N Korea. We need to engage & deal with them all.

So, you're recommending that we should lift sanctions on Iran, perhaps have bunch of meetings between Khamenei and Trump with no notes, after all Khamenei "won't be in power forever"?

I'd recommend lifting some sanctions on Iran if it reopened negotiations on a long term JCPOA Treaty, that included ballistic missiles & nuc warhead development (that could attain Senate ratification).

I'd recommend lifting some sanctions of Russia to reopen negotiations on --
-- (1) an extended, updated START treaty
-- (2) a convention arms limitation agreement, demilitarizing both sides of NATO's E border

So, we tear up a deal, impose sanctions, and we offer what to the Iranians?
We go back to where we were before we tore up the deal?
Yeah, that's gonna work.

And we're going to do exactly what the Russians want, and in return we lift the sanctions?
Putin's chuckling on that deal.

We already did START, 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_START

But, Trump tears up that one too:
Future[edit]
According to a Reuters report on February 9, 2017, in US President Donald Trump's first 60-minute telephone call with Russian President Vladimir Putin, Putin inquired about extending New START. President Trump attacked the treaty, claiming that it favored Russia and was "one of several bad deals negotiated by the Obama administration".[74]

Anyone actually think that Trump won't do exactly as Putin tells him to do?

START expires in 2021. It needs to be extended & to encompass new weapons.

The next President should be the person that negotiates it...... not a guy that is on his way out of office.

[MDlaxfan76]

OS is becoming a caricature. Czech? Havel and the Czech spring in 1968. The Hungarian Revolution in 1956 when Ike failed the Hungarians. The Slovenians? Might not surprise you to learn I have friends there. They want nothing to do with Russia. We sponsored a Croatian student. They don’t either. No country wants to be under the heel of the Russian boot you so much want to put them under. Pathetic and morally bankrupt.

It’s interesting how so many OS posts support Russia’s Geo political goals

The analogy was that the citizens of Czechoslovakia chose to divide their country along ethnic lines (not that they should be part of Russia), just like the Balkans did, just like the ethnic Russians in E Ukraine aspire to do. When the USSR came apart, the ethnic Russians of E Ukraine were among the millions of ethnic Russians trapped inside the borders of ersatz nation states that had no significant history of independence. Other than the 3 Baltic states, who received massive aid to join NATO & the EU, all the other former Soviet Republics have become corrupt authoritarian clones of the USSR, where life is no better than in Russia,

My posts are not based on supporting Russia's geopolitical goals. They're based on supporting long term US geopolitical goals (as opposed to revenge over attempted election interference). They're based on historical precedence & the best way to contain Russia moving forward, rather than slipping into another intractable Cold War. Putin won't be in power forever. We will need the good will of the Russian people when he passes from the scene. Trump's victory was celebrated by the Russian people because they anticipated improved relations & because they anticipated a President who would treat their country with the respect due a super power with a proud history who sacrificed greatly as an ally in the Great War. We are squandering a tremendous opportunity because of petty partisan politics. We already have an axis of enemies in China, Iran & N Korea. We're driving Russia into that axis. We will come to regret our current Russophobia, which has washed away 2 decades of good will following the Cold War. Putin's a bad actor, but so are the leaders of China, Iran & N Korea. We need to engage & deal with them all.

So, you're recommending that we should lift sanctions on Iran, perhaps have bunch of meetings between Khamenei and Trump with no notes, after all Khamenei "won't be in power forever"?

I'd recommend lifting some sanctions on Iran if it reopened negotiations on a long term JCPOA Treaty, that included ballistic missiles & nuc warhead development (that could attain Senate ratification).

I'd recommend lifting some sanctions of Russia to reopen negotiations on --
-- (1) an extended, updated START treaty
-- (2) a convention arms limitation agreement, demilitarizing both sides of NATO's E border

So, we tear up a deal, impose sanctions, and we offer what to the Iranians?
We go back to where we were before we tore up the deal?
Yeah, that's gonna work.

And we're going to do exactly what the Russians want, and in return we lift the sanctions?
Putin's chuckling on that deal.

We already did START, 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_START

But, Trump tears up that one too:
Future[edit]
According to a Reuters report on February 9, 2017, in US President Donald Trump's first 60-minute telephone call with Russian President Vladimir Putin, Putin inquired about extending New START. President Trump attacked the treaty, claiming that it favored Russia and was "one of several bad deals negotiated by the Obama administration".[74]

Anyone actually think that Trump won't do exactly as Putin tells him to do?

START expires in 2021. It needs to be extended & to encompass new weapons.

The next President should be the person that negotiates it...... not a guy that is on his way out of office.

Exactly.
Though Trump could have done the next President a solid by extending it to 2022. Of course, the next President could do that for him or herself in due course, if additional time is necessary.

[old salt]

At least get the negotiations started. What if Trump is re-elected ?
START expires in 2021. How long do you think it will take to negotiate & get it through the Senate ?
The Senate hawks won't accept a bad deal.

[MDlaxfan76]

At least get the negotiations started. What if Trump is re-elected ?
START expires in 2021. How long do you think it will take to negotiate & get it through the Senate ?
The Senate hawks won't accept a bad deal.

Nothing prevents Trump from having engaged in a START extension negotiation the month he took office.

You could have been correct that the prior Congress' Senate hawks wouldn't have accepted a relief of Russian sanctions, much less a bad re-negotiation of START. Which is likely why there was no such negotiation begun.

But if Trump wins again, it's pretty clear that Putin will dictate terms to Trump and the GOP will capitulate wholesale to whatever Trump wants. As it is, Trump now 'owns' the GOP, and the murmurs from the GOP hawks are more and more muted with every twist of the screwdriver.

Trump will sell this baloney that we need Russia at our side to protect the world from Islam and/or from China. Same geopolitical hooey you're selling Salty.

And the kleptocracy will cheer.

[jhu72]

Is it really a negotiation between Vlad and OD? I don't think so. Trump gives Vlad everything he wants and Trump gets to go down on Vlad. Doesn't sound like much of a negotiation to me, but hey, I don't role the same way Trump does.

[old salt]

At least get the negotiations started. What if Trump is re-elected ?
START expires in 2021. How long do you think it will take to negotiate & get it through the Senate ?
The Senate hawks won't accept a bad deal.

Nothing prevents Trump from having engaged in a START extension negotiation the month he took office.

You could have been correct that the prior Congress' Senate hawks wouldn't have accepted a relief of Russian sanctions, much less a bad re-negotiation of START. Which is likely why there was no such negotiation begun.

But if Trump wins again, it's pretty clear that Putin will dictate terms to Trump and the GOP will capitulate wholesale to whatever Trump wants. As it is, Trump now 'owns' the GOP, and the murmurs from the GOP hawks are more and more muted with every twist of the screwdriver.

Trump will sell this baloney that we need Russia at our side to protect the world from Islam and/or from China. Same geopolitical hooey you're selling Salty.

And the kleptocracy will cheer.

Are you kidding ? Any contact by the Manchurian Candidate with any Russian was COLLUSION & TREASON.

[CU77]

Please. Trump has had plenty of contact with Russians, including closed one-on-one meetings with Putin. If he wanted to discuss START, he could have done so at any time.

Renegotiatating a treaty that expires in 2021 is on the 2017-2021 POTUS, not whoever takes office in Jan 2021.

[jhu72]

Trump says what happens in Putin meeting is 'none of your business'. Well there you have it. You're going to tell me this clown can negotiate an agreement with Putin that's in the best interest of the citizens of the US.

[MDlaxfan76]

At least get the negotiations started. What if Trump is re-elected ?
START expires in 2021. How long do you think it will take to negotiate & get it through the Senate ?
The Senate hawks won't accept a bad deal.

Nothing prevents Trump from having engaged in a START extension negotiation the month he took office.

You could have been correct that the prior Congress' Senate hawks wouldn't have accepted a relief of Russian sanctions, much less a bad re-negotiation of START. Which is likely why there was no such negotiation begun.

But if Trump wins again, it's pretty clear that Putin will dictate terms to Trump and the GOP will capitulate wholesale to whatever Trump wants. As it is, Trump now 'owns' the GOP, and the murmurs from the GOP hawks are more and more muted with every twist of the screwdriver.

Trump will sell this baloney that we need Russia at our side to protect the world from Islam and/or from China. Same geopolitical hooey you're selling Salty.

And the kleptocracy will cheer.

Are you kidding ? Any contact by the Manchurian Candidate with any Russian was COLLUSION & TREASON.

Treason no.
Bannon called it 'treasonous', actually a correct use of that word.

But COLLUSION? You betcha.

[jhu72]

At least get the negotiations started. What if Trump is re-elected ?
START expires in 2021. How long do you think it will take to negotiate & get it through the Senate ?
The Senate hawks won't accept a bad deal.

Nothing prevents Trump from having engaged in a START extension negotiation the month he took office.

You could have been correct that the prior Congress' Senate hawks wouldn't have accepted a relief of Russian sanctions, much less a bad re-negotiation of START. Which is likely why there was no such negotiation begun.

But if Trump wins again, it's pretty clear that Putin will dictate terms to Trump and the GOP will capitulate wholesale to whatever Trump wants. As it is, Trump now 'owns' the GOP, and the murmurs from the GOP hawks are more and more muted with every twist of the screwdriver.

Trump will sell this baloney that we need Russia at our side to protect the world from Islam and/or from China. Same geopolitical hooey you're selling Salty.

And the kleptocracy will cheer.

Are you kidding ? Any contact by the Manchurian Candidate with any Russian was COLLUSION & TREASON.

Treason no. -- maybe no; we have no idea what is in the intel investigation report. Presumably the indictment rules are the same for sitting Presidents.
Bannon called it 'treasonous', actually a correct use of that word.

But COLLUSION? You betcha.

[OCanada]

OS is kind of amusing. His posts support geopolitical positions russia would like to achieve and have at the top of their list for decades if not Millenia. In politics it’s all about ignoring what is said and paying attention to what is done . It’s a page out of the international right wing movement.

The Crimea is all about the Port of Sebastopol. That’s it. Russia strategically wants the port do they illegally seized it. The rest of the discussion is window dressing.

Finland used to be part of Russia too. Ukraine also used to be controlled by other countries as well. They declared their independence after the czar was deposedZ. They did that because they wanted independence. Their independence is in our best interests. The USA never had a record of independence before declaring our independence. Either did most African state or middle eastern states etc. the American and French revolutions are great because of what they accomplished and the example they created.

The Ukraine did not declare independence because it wanted to become part of the criminal enterprise Russia has become endemic with alcoholism, abuse of women, lack of freedoms etc

[OCanada]

OS has not been exactly candid about the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine in 2004 (?).

But first from Brzezinski’s Thr Grand Chessboard. “Ukraine, a new and important space on the Eurasian chessboard, is a geographical pivot because it’s very existence as an independent country helps to transform Russia”. A primary event that threatens Putin and his rule. “Without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be a Eurasian empire.” Putin views the loss of the Ukraine after the Orange Revolution as a continuation of the loss of status. Further if the Ukraine were a success then its example could be applied to Russia too. A direct threat to Putin and the oligarchs. It was in response to it that Russia began its strategy.

But about the people..

“The principles of humanity are only a procedure of bargaining” to the oligarchs. Gleb Pavlovsky

[a fan]

The Orange Revolution (with open & active US State Dept support & interference) overthrew a legally elected, internationally recognized government.

For the life of me, I don't understand why the standing policy isn't: leave other governments alone.

Why do we keep doing that when we can look at results and say: this behavior is not working, and what's more, it's morally wrong.

[old salt]

The Orange Revolution (with open & active US State Dept support & interference) overthrew a legally elected, internationally recognized government.

For the life of me, I don't understand why the standing policy isn't: leave other governments alone.

Why do we keep doing that when we can look at results and say: this behavior is not working, and what's more, it's morally wrong.

Orange Revolution, 2004 :

https://www.foxnews.com/story/u-s-spent ... ian-groups

AP story, Dec 10, 2004
The Bush administration has spent more than $65 million in the past two years to aid political organizations in Ukraine, paying to bring opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko to meet U.S. leaders and helping to underwrite exit polls indicating he won last month's disputed runoff election.

U.S. officials say the activities don't amount to interference in Ukraine's election, a Russian President Vladimir Putin alleges, but are part of the $1 billion the State Department spends each year trying to build democracy worldwide.

No U.S. money was sent directly to Ukrainian political parties, the officials say. In most cases, it was funneled through organizations like the Carnegie Foundation or through groups aligned with Republicans and Democrats that organized election training, with human rights forums or with independent news outlets.

But officials acknowledge some of the money helped train groups and individuals opposed to the Russian-backed government candidate — people who now call themselves part of the Orange revolution.

[a fan]

I guess the answer is: we're going to keep doing this, and history has taught Americans in the State Dept. nothing.

[Typical Lax Dad]

The Orange Revolution (with open & active US State Dept support & interference) overthrew a legally elected, internationally recognized government.

For the life of me, I don't understand why the standing policy isn't: leave other governments alone.

Why do we keep doing that when we can look at results and say: this behavior is not working, and what's more, it's morally wrong.

Orange Revolution, 2004 :

https://www.foxnews.com/story/u-s-spent ... ian-groups

AP story, Dec 10, 2004
The Bush administration has spent more than $65 million in the past two years to aid political organizations in Ukraine, paying to bring opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko to meet U.S. leaders and helping to underwrite exit polls indicating he won last month's disputed runoff election.

U.S. officials say the activities don't amount to interference in Ukraine's election, a Russian President Vladimir Putin alleges, but are part of the $1 billion the State Department spends each year trying to build democracy worldwide.

No U.S. money was sent directly to Ukrainian political parties, the officials say. In most cases, it was funneled through organizations like the Carnegie Foundation or through groups aligned with Republicans and Democrats that organized election training, with human rights forums or with independent news outlets.

But officials acknowledge some of the money helped train groups and individuals opposed to the Russian-backed government candidate — people who now call themselves part of the Orange revolution.

Thanks. We had it coming to us. We shouldn't care....Next time we do it in Russia, they shouldn't care either....

[jhu72]

The Orange Revolution (with open & active US State Dept support & interference) overthrew a legally elected, internationally recognized government.

For the life of me, I don't understand why the standing policy isn't: leave other governments alone.

Why do we keep doing that when we can look at results and say: this behavior is not working, and what's more, it's morally wrong.

Orange Revolution, 2004 :

https://www.foxnews.com/story/u-s-spent ... ian-groups

AP story, Dec 10, 2004
The Bush administration has spent more than $65 million in the past two years to aid political organizations in Ukraine, paying to bring opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko to meet U.S. leaders and helping to underwrite exit polls indicating he won last month's disputed runoff election.

U.S. officials say the activities don't amount to interference in Ukraine's election, a Russian President Vladimir Putin alleges, but are part of the $1 billion the State Department spends each year trying to build democracy worldwide.

No U.S. money was sent directly to Ukrainian political parties, the officials say. In most cases, it was funneled through organizations like the Carnegie Foundation or through groups aligned with Republicans and Democrats that organized election training, with human rights forums or with independent news outlets.

But officials acknowledge some of the money helped train groups and individuals opposed to the Russian-backed government candidate — people who now call themselves part of the Orange revolution.

Thanks. We had it coming to us. We shouldn't care....Next time we do it in Russia, they shouldn't care either....

Seems fair to me.

[old salt]

Orange Revolution, 2004 :

https://www.foxnews.com/story/u-s-spent ... ian-groups

AP story, Dec 10, 2004
The Bush administration has spent more than $65 million in the past two years to aid political organizations in Ukraine...
...part of the $1 billion the State Department spends each year trying to build democracy worldwide.
... officials acknowledge some of the money helped train groups and individuals opposed to the Russian-backed government candidate — people who now call themselves part of the Orange revolution.

Thanks. We had it coming to us. We shouldn't care....Next time we do it in Russia, they shouldn't care either....

$1 billion would buy a lot of Facebook ads & hire a bunch of hackers & trolls.