Our Undeclared Wars

[MDlaxfan76]

Schiff, on Face the Nation, is confirming that the intelligence is strong that this was Iranian.

Likely hard liner driven, in response to the ratcheted sanctions.

Unfortunately, we have such low credibility at this point.

Same claim was made about delusional Bush's WMD and about the mythic Assad gas attacks.

Are you saying you don’t believe Assad did use gas?? I agree on your fundamental point though.

[old salt]

The Brits are sending 100 Royal Marines to the Persian Gulf to join the Frigate, Dock Landing Ship, & the 4 minesweepers they already have forward deployed there. Let's see what other allies are willing to join CTF 152 to keep the sea lanes open.
France already has a Frigate in the Arabian Sea operating with CTF 150.

Iran has summoned the British Ambassador for an explanation :

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/spec ... -cxjz5wnb3

“We will be working with the United States to make sure this area is safe and to make sure that we actually deescalate the tensions there but I don’t think Iran should be under any doubt [about] that fact that we will be determined to protect our assets and our interests in the region.”
Britain was the second country to directly blame Iran for the attack and President Trump had previously said that one of the mines that struck the tankers on Thursday morning “had Iran written all over it”.

Crown prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia called on the international community to “take a decisive stand” on the issue. In his first comments since the attacks, he also accused Iran of disrespecting Shinzo Abe, the Japanese prime minister who was on a visit to Tehran on Thursday to try to calm tensions in the region, by launching the attack while he was in the country.

It comes as Royal Marines are being sent to the Gulf to protect British warships. Military sources said that 100 marines from 42 Commando, based near Plymouth, will form a rapid reaction force, Special Purpose Task Group 19. They will operate from ships patrolling the region from Britain’s new naval base in Bahrain.

Their deployment comes as British military and intelligence officials join an international investigation into last week’s events involving oil tankers near the Strait of Hormuz, which America and Britain blamed on Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps.

The Royal Marines are expected to fly to Bahrain within weeks. They will operate from the Royal Fleet Auxiliary ship Cardigan Bay, using speedboats and helicopters to protect Royal Navy warships and UK merchant vessels.

A British security official said experts would help to identify exactly what materials had been used in the attacks, which Iran has denied executing.
“A ballistics analysis will be carried out to determine the type of explosives used,” the official said. “British experts will be on hand to provide technical support and help with forensic analysis.”

In the warm blue waters of the Strait of Hormuz there is no room for mistakes. Its shipping lanes, which are only two miles wide, are packed with tankers carrying crude oil from the Gulf past implacable enemies: Iran on one side, the United Arab Emirates on the other.
Any conflagration in this stretch of water, however limited its intended scope, could have a high cost. A third of the world’s crude oil supplies passes through the strait, down what was once known as the Pirate Coast where local raiders attacked Royal Navy ships in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Navy commanders want the marines to enhance the navy’s ability to detect and engage the small boats the Iranians are accused of using to attack the tankers. A military source said that having marines with machineguns on the decks of warships or merchant ships was likely to see off any Iranian speedboats trying to sneak up on them.

As well as the Cardigan Bay, Britain also has HMS Montrose, a Type 23 frigate, and four minesweepers in the Gulf. About 500 UK military personnel, including the crew of these ships, serve at the UK base in Bahrain.

The Royal Navy has been planning the “force protection” mission for several weeks because of rising tensions with Iran. The mission has not been formally announced, however, because the Ministry of Defence does not want to be seen to be escalating the situation. The ministry said: “This is a pre-planned training deployment and is in no way related to the ongoing situation in the Gulf of Oman.”

https://combinedmaritimeforces.com/ctf- ... -security/

CTF 150’s Area of Operation includes some of the world’s busiest shipping lanes and spans over two million square miles, covering the Red Sea, Gulf of Aden, Indian Ocean and Gulf of Oman (but not the Arabian Gulf, which is the responsibility of CTF 152). This area is a vital artery of world trade from the Far East to Europe and the US, with thousands of shipping movements per year including the transportation of over 27 million barrels of oil[1]. In addition, the AOR contains three narrow waterways, known as ‘choke points’, where vessels are required to pass closely between two shorelines. These include the Strait of Hormuz, Bab El Mandeb and the Suez Canal. This means ships have limited maneuverability and are more vulnerable than would otherwise be the case in open waters.

Task Force 150 was a US Navy formation under the control of the US Naval Forces Central Command (CENTCOM). After the terrorist attacks of September 11 2001, it was re-established as a multinational coalition in order to undertake counter-terrorism operations at sea as part of Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF). The coalition has grown and evolved beyond that operation’s scope to encompass and address widely perceived maritime security threats to member states.

CTF 150 is a multinational task force. Participating nations have included: Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Republic of Korea, Netherlands, New Zealand, Pakistan, Portugal, Singapore, Spain, and Turkey, United Kingdom and United States. Participation is purely voluntary and no nation is asked to carry out any duty that it is unwilling to conduct. Command of CTF 150 is generally rotated between nations on a four monthly basis.

[Brooklyn]

Are you saying you don’t believe Assad did use gas?? I agree on your fundamental point though.

Assad's gas "attacks" were FAKE NEWS spewed by Trump:

Remember this photo of the child grieving over parents 'killed' by Assad:






It turns out the photo was a hoax as shown here: https://www.imediaethics.org/hoax-photo ... as-staged/


So called ''white helmets'' faked it all: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2018/09/ ... ims-a62849

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-02- ... onth-syria


Google for more. Note how the pro war reich wing USA media refused to report any of this.

[CU88]

The Brits are sending 100 Royal Marines to the Persian Gulf to join the Frigate, Dock Landing Ship, & the 4 minesweepers they already have forward deployed there. Let's see what other allies are willing to join CTF 152 to keep the sea lanes open.
France already has a Frigate in the Arabian Sea operating with CTF 150.

Iran has summoned the British Ambassador for an explanation :

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/spec ... -cxjz5wnb3

“We will be working with the United States to make sure this area is safe and to make sure that we actually deescalate the tensions there but I don’t think Iran should be under any doubt [about] that fact that we will be determined to protect our assets and our interests in the region.”
Britain was the second country to directly blame Iran for the attack and President Trump had previously said that one of the mines that struck the tankers on Thursday morning “had Iran written all over it”.

Crown prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia called on the international community to “take a decisive stand” on the issue. In his first comments since the attacks, he also accused Iran of disrespecting Shinzo Abe, the Japanese prime minister who was on a visit to Tehran on Thursday to try to calm tensions in the region, by launching the attack while he was in the country.

It comes as Royal Marines are being sent to the Gulf to protect British warships. Military sources said that 100 marines from 42 Commando, based near Plymouth, will form a rapid reaction force, Special Purpose Task Group 19. They will operate from ships patrolling the region from Britain’s new naval base in Bahrain.

Their deployment comes as British military and intelligence officials join an international investigation into last week’s events involving oil tankers near the Strait of Hormuz, which America and Britain blamed on Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps.

The Royal Marines are expected to fly to Bahrain within weeks. They will operate from the Royal Fleet Auxiliary ship Cardigan Bay, using speedboats and helicopters to protect Royal Navy warships and UK merchant vessels.

A British security official said experts would help to identify exactly what materials had been used in the attacks, which Iran has denied executing.
“A ballistics analysis will be carried out to determine the type of explosives used,” the official said. “British experts will be on hand to provide technical support and help with forensic analysis.”

In the warm blue waters of the Strait of Hormuz there is no room for mistakes. Its shipping lanes, which are only two miles wide, are packed with tankers carrying crude oil from the Gulf past implacable enemies: Iran on one side, the United Arab Emirates on the other.
Any conflagration in this stretch of water, however limited its intended scope, could have a high cost. A third of the world’s crude oil supplies passes through the strait, down what was once known as the Pirate Coast where local raiders attacked Royal Navy ships in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Navy commanders want the marines to enhance the navy’s ability to detect and engage the small boats the Iranians are accused of using to attack the tankers. A military source said that having marines with machineguns on the decks of warships or merchant ships was likely to see off any Iranian speedboats trying to sneak up on them.

As well as the Cardigan Bay, Britain also has HMS Montrose, a Type 23 frigate, and four minesweepers in the Gulf. About 500 UK military personnel, including the crew of these ships, serve at the UK base in Bahrain.

The Royal Navy has been planning the “force protection” mission for several weeks because of rising tensions with Iran. The mission has not been formally announced, however, because the Ministry of Defence does not want to be seen to be escalating the situation. The ministry said: “This is a pre-planned training deployment and is in no way related to the ongoing situation in the Gulf of Oman.”

https://combinedmaritimeforces.com/ctf- ... -security/

CTF 150’s Area of Operation includes some of the world’s busiest shipping lanes and spans over two million square miles, covering the Red Sea, Gulf of Aden, Indian Ocean and Gulf of Oman (but not the Arabian Gulf, which is the responsibility of CTF 152). This area is a vital artery of world trade from the Far East to Europe and the US, with thousands of shipping movements per year including the transportation of over 27 million barrels of oil[1]. In addition, the AOR contains three narrow waterways, known as ‘choke points’, where vessels are required to pass closely between two shorelines. These include the Strait of Hormuz, Bab El Mandeb and the Suez Canal. This means ships have limited maneuverability and are more vulnerable than would otherwise be the case in open waters.

Task Force 150 was a US Navy formation under the control of the US Naval Forces Central Command (CENTCOM). After the terrorist attacks of September 11 2001, it was re-established as a multinational coalition in order to undertake counter-terrorism operations at sea as part of Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF). The coalition has grown and evolved beyond that operation’s scope to encompass and address widely perceived maritime security threats to member states.

CTF 150 is a multinational task force. Participating nations have included: Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Republic of Korea, Netherlands, New Zealand, Pakistan, Portugal, Singapore, Spain, and Turkey, United Kingdom and United States. Participation is purely voluntary and no nation is asked to carry out any duty that it is unwilling to conduct. Command of CTF 150 is generally rotated between nations on a four monthly basis.

FAKE NEWS, but is has generated a great quote from Krugman:


@paulkrugman

Is it just me, or has the Gulf of Trumpkin incident receded from the top of the news unusually fast? It's almost as if they figured out that this dog won't wag, and moved on

[old salt]

Photos of IRGC boat & crew removing mine taken by a US Navy MH-60R helo, (probably operating from USS Bainbridge).

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/17/us-mili ... ttack.html

Photo taken from immediately overhead the IRGC boat underway. IRGC crewman holding hand aloft. Machine gun not manned or pointing upward. Wonder if the MH-60R had the .50 cal door guns mounted &/or Hellfire missiles loaded on the stub wings ?

Good overview of what could transpire if Iran escalates or starts to close the Strait :

[OCanada]

The interested party to most benefit from the attack is not Iran. Doesn’t say they didn’t but SA has shown the willingness to launch attacks on countries through various branches of the royal family. 9/11, funding schools globally that teach jihadi in extreme form, AK. They have no compunction and rallying support against Iran is right in their wheel house.

The world knows Iran can close that passage anytime they want.

The administration lies just to lie. That have lied to misplace blame. They have lied to makecorhers look bad or guilty. They have doctored video. They have doctored photos. They are past the point they have any credibility.

Iran is not a sinner here that are a loser and there are those who benefit from in creased tension including the administration.

The UK has become more of a sycophant with May.

I want irrefutable proof. There is an ejection in 2020 and one party needs a win at something. Anything. And creating a foreign threat is in many countries playbook

[jhu72]

I haven't seen one piece of evidence that is even close to conclusive that Iran was responsible. Just the typical lies and spin coming from those trying to rush us towards war. Just the usual weak BS. Even the MSM isn't buying it. Everyone is hedging their statements when reporting the US is blaming Iran.

[CU88]

Photos of IRGC boat & crew removing mine taken by a US Navy MH-60R helo, (probably operating from USS Bainbridge).

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/17/us-mili ... ttack.html

Photo taken from immediately overhead the IRGC boat underway. IRGC crewman holding hand aloft. Machine gun not manned or pointing upward. Wonder if the MH-60R had the .50 cal door guns mounted &/or Hellfire missiles loaded on the stub wings ?

Good overview of what could transpire if Iran escalates or starts to close the Strait :

FAKE NEWS!

Your hero o d has even changed the topic to Arrests and Deportation of MILLIONS here in the USA.

Iran has Territorial Rights to those waters, imagine the uproar if Iran had warships within 20 miles of USA!

[old salt]

Iran has Territorial Rights to those waters, imagine the uproar if Iran had warships within 20 miles of USA!

So what ? That does not matter. Right of Transit Passage / Innocent Passage applies.

https://viewfromll2.com/2012/01/07/is-t ... ional-law/

...as the Strait of Hormuz does not belong to Iran alone, and Iran’s sovereign claims over the Strait are limited by Oman’s own claims to its territorial seas, any action taken by Iran to close the entirety of the Strait will necessarily be an act of force prohibited by the UN Charter, and unquestionably a violation of international law.

If the US were threatening Transit/Innocent Passage within 20 miles of US, we should expect foreign warships.

[CU88]

Iran has Territorial Rights to those waters, imagine the uproar if Iran had warships within 20 miles of USA!

So what ? That does not matter. Right of Transit Passage / Innocent Passage applies.

https://viewfromll2.com/2012/01/07/is-t ... ional-law/

...as the Strait of Hormuz does not belong to Iran alone, and Iran’s sovereign claims over the Strait are limited by Oman’s own claims to its territorial seas, any action taken by Iran to close the entirety of the Strait will necessarily be an act of force prohibited by the UN Charter, and unquestionably a violation of international law.

If the US were threatening Transit/Innocent Passage within 20 miles of US, we should expect foreign warships.

Oh bother, really?

From your link:

"But ignoring the reality of the situation for a moment, and pretending as if international law actually possessed the power to effect state’s actions in the Gulf, ..."

Are you telling us all that you now want to rely on the UN for guidance to US Policy, again from your link:

"United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (“UNCLOS")" Something that the USA has never supported.

Ask your hero o d what he thinks of UNCLOS, and get back to us.

Also, your hero o d said this today, on the matter, "Trump characterizes alleged attacks by Iran on tankers as ‘very minor’". Nothing Burger, of course...

[OCanada]

Both Oman and Iran claim control each out to 12.miles. If Iran decides to close it they can and will.

The administration has yet to provide verifiable proof., might be why trump is now saying it was minor.

Meanwhile we are pulling troops out of Afghanistan and Syria and sending them to Poland and the ME again?? Clueless

[old salt]

Iran has Territorial Rights to those waters, imagine the uproar if Iran had warships within 20 miles of USA!

So what ? That does not matter. Right of Transit Passage / Innocent Passage applies.

https://viewfromll2.com/2012/01/07/is-t ... ional-law/

...as the Strait of Hormuz does not belong to Iran alone, and Iran’s sovereign claims over the Strait are limited by Oman’s own claims to its territorial seas, any action taken by Iran to close the entirety of the Strait will necessarily be an act of force prohibited by the UN Charter, and unquestionably a violation of international law.

If the US were threatening Transit/Innocent Passage within 20 miles of US, we should expect foreign warships.

Oh bother, really?

From your link:

"But ignoring the reality of the situation for a moment, and pretending as if international law actually possessed the power to effect state’s actions in the Gulf, ..."

Are you telling us all that you now want to rely on the UN for guidance to US Policy, again from your link:

"United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (“UNCLOS")" Something that the USA has never supported.

Ask your hero o d what he thinks of UNCLOS, and get back to us.

Also, your hero o d said this today, on the matter, "Trump characterizes alleged attacks by Iran on tankers as ‘very minor’". Nothing Burger, of course...

You have weaponized stupidity. You're just trolling & wasting band width.
Right of Transit Passage pertains in Territorial Waters.
Established International Law upholds this everywhere.
UNCLOS & standing International Law agree on this.
https://www.asil.org/insights/volume/16 ... ck-passage

[old salt]

Both Oman and Iran claim control each out to 12.miles. If Iran decides to close it they can and will.

The administration has yet to provide verifiable proof., might be why trump is now saying it was minor.

Meanwhile we are pulling troops out of Afghanistan and Syria and sending them to Poland and the ME again?? Clueless

The 12 mile limits do not apply when they overlap & overlay established international shipping channels.
What more proof do you need ? Were the photos & IR video fakes ?

Trump is tamping down the "march to war" media hype by pointing out the obvious --
-- those limpet mines were intended to damage (not sink) the tankers, & to disrupt / deter oil shipments.
The Iranians are trying to get our EU & Japanese allies to pressure us to back off on sanctions.

Minor force level adjustments in Afghanistan, Syria, Poland & the ME are to be expected, as conditions change.
They're for force protection, not for offensive operations.

[OCanada]

The administration has used altered photos and altered video before to try and mislead. Trump has lied 11,000 times since taking office and Pompeo has lied under oath. Neither have credibility left. All you should need to know to require verifiable proof. Haven’t heard that from you yet.

The idea the shipowner doesn’t know ships is stupid.

Iran can close the straits any time it chooses.

Now explain how 1,000 troops to Poland enhances force protection because no one I know who deals with these concepts can do it.

You have yet to provide any explanation why Iran with Abe visiting would attack a Japanese ship. No motivation. There is plenty of motivation for other parties to want to try and disrupt Japan and Iran though

[CU88]

Iran has Territorial Rights to those waters, imagine the uproar if Iran had warships within 20 miles of USA!

So what ? That does not matter. Right of Transit Passage / Innocent Passage applies.

https://viewfromll2.com/2012/01/07/is-t ... ional-law/

...as the Strait of Hormuz does not belong to Iran alone, and Iran’s sovereign claims over the Strait are limited by Oman’s own claims to its territorial seas, any action taken by Iran to close the entirety of the Strait will necessarily be an act of force prohibited by the UN Charter, and unquestionably a violation of international law.

If the US were threatening Transit/Innocent Passage within 20 miles of US, we should expect foreign warships.

Oh bother, really?

From your link:

"But ignoring the reality of the situation for a moment, and pretending as if international law actually possessed the power to effect state’s actions in the Gulf, ..."

Are you telling us all that you now want to rely on the UN for guidance to US Policy, again from your link:

"United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (“UNCLOS")" Something that the USA has never supported.

Ask your hero o d what he thinks of UNCLOS, and get back to us.

Also, your hero o d said this today, on the matter, "Trump characterizes alleged attacks by Iran on tankers as ‘very minor’". Nothing Burger, of course...

You have weaponized stupidity. You're just trolling & wasting band width.
Right of Transit Passage pertains in Territorial Waters.
Established International Law upholds this everywhere.
UNCLOS & standing International Law agree on this.
https://www.asil.org/insights/volume/16 ... ck-passage

True, but you are the kettle calling the pot black.

Answer me these two questions:

1. Do you believe that the USA must follow UN "Laws"?
2. When did the US ratify UNCLOS?

[a fan]

The Iranians are trying to get our EU & Japanese allies to pressure us to back off on sanctions.

That doesn't make any sense. How is Iran hitting ships going to get anyone to back off sanctions? The most likely outcome, by any measure, is for the US to harden its stance.

I'm not putting tinfoil hat on here. I'm saying this strategy has an obvious outcome. And that outcome is the US will harden its stance, and send troops. Which is exactly what happened.

[Typical Lax Dad]

The Iranians are trying to get our EU & Japanese allies to pressure us to back off on sanctions.

That doesn't make any sense. How is Iran hitting ships going to get anyone to back off sanctions? The most likely outcome, by any measure, is for the US to harden its stance.

I'm not putting tinfoil hat on here. I'm saying this strategy has an obvious outcome. And that outcome is the US will harden its stance, and send troops. Which is exactly what happened.

The Iranians are a stupid people and they talk funny so they wouldn't think of the obvious.

[foreverlax]

Iran has Territorial Rights to those waters, imagine the uproar if Iran had warships within 20 miles of USA!

So what ? That does not matter. Right of Transit Passage / Innocent Passage applies.

https://viewfromll2.com/2012/01/07/is-t ... ional-law/

...as the Strait of Hormuz does not belong to Iran alone, and Iran’s sovereign claims over the Strait are limited by Oman’s own claims to its territorial seas, any action taken by Iran to close the entirety of the Strait will necessarily be an act of force prohibited by the UN Charter, and unquestionably a violation of international law.

If the US were threatening Transit/Innocent Passage within 20 miles of US, we should expect foreign warships.

Oh bother, really?

From your link:

"But ignoring the reality of the situation for a moment, and pretending as if international law actually possessed the power to effect state’s actions in the Gulf, ..."

Are you telling us all that you now want to rely on the UN for guidance to US Policy, again from your link:

"United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (“UNCLOS")" Something that the USA has never supported.

Ask your hero o d what he thinks of UNCLOS, and get back to us.

Also, your hero o d said this today, on the matter, "Trump characterizes alleged attacks by Iran on tankers as ‘very minor’". Nothing Burger, of course...

You have weaponized stupidity. You're just trolling & wasting band width.Are you talking about Trump
Right of Transit Passage pertains in Territorial Waters.
Established International Law upholds this everywhere.
UNCLOS & standing International Law agree on this.
https://www.asil.org/insights/volume/16 ... ck-passage

[old salt]

The administration has used altered photos and altered video before to try and mislead. Trump has lied 11,000 times since taking office and Pompeo has lied under oath. Neither have credibility left. All you should need to know to require verifiable proof. Haven’t heard that from you yet.
The photos were released by CENTCOM. The newspaper credits say they were taken from a MH-60R helo, like those aboard the USN DD's that came to the rescue. You're including a massive portion of the US Navy in your loopy conspiracy theory.

The idea the shipowner doesn’t know ships is stupid.
Stupid reporting. All he knows is what his crewmen told him via phone. He even said the damage was on the wrong side of the ship. They say they heard flying objects. Clearly, all they heard was an explosion. All that needs to be determined is when the mines were affixed & if they were placed by divers before the ships left port or via small boats which slipped alongside during hours of darkness. Merchant ships rely primarily on radar & transponders for separation from other ships. Unlike warships, they do not have numerous lookouts & large bride watches. It's relatively easy for a muffled, low profile small boat to approach from astern, unobserved. That's why the Brits are sending Royal Marines to ride the ships as lookouts patrolling the deck, looking over the side.

Iran can close the straits any time it chooses.
Not without violating International Law.

Now explain how 1,000 troops to Poland enhances force protection because no one I know who deals with these concepts can do it.
You're confusing the ME & Polish troop increases, both in response to requests from theater commanders.
EUCOM requested logistics & HQ staff personnel to support the existing rotational deployment to Poland.
CENTCOM requested the additional troops for force protection of what we already have in the ME.
Crews for Patriot missile battery. Combat engineers to build berms for blast protection from missile attacks for our facilities in Bahrain & Qatar, which are within range of the Iranian missiles being fired on SA by their Houthi proxies in Yemen.

You have yet to provide any explanation why Iran with Abe visiting would attack a Japanese ship. No motivation. There is plenty of motivation for other parties to want to try and disrupt Japan and Iran though It could also be seen as a way to intimidate the Japanese & alarm the Japanese public about the prospects of oil shortages or higher prices, to increase pressure on the US to ease sanctions.

[old salt]

The Iranians are trying to get our EU & Japanese allies to pressure us to back off on sanctions.

That doesn't make any sense. How is Iran hitting ships going to get anyone to back off sanctions? The most likely outcome, by any measure, is for the US to harden its stance.

I'm not putting tinfoil hat on here. I'm saying this strategy has an obvious outcome. And that outcome is the US will harden its stance, and send troops. Which is exactly what happened.

Most of our allies, primarily Germany & France, wanted us to remain in the JCPOA. They would also be more severely impacted by disruption of Persian Gulf oil flow. The German FM just visited Iran to assure them they're working on a financial scheme to circumvent US sanctions. Iran is doing this to divide us from our allies.

You make no distinction in "troops" between forces sent to support & defend those already there from increasing threats & those needed to attack, invade or strike Iran. Even the old F-15C's sent are only capable of air defense missions, not air strikes.