a fan wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:18 am
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:29 am
That's just nuts. Pie in the sky lunacy. You can't just transform & restructure a sprawling USA, which covers a continent.
What do you think we're going to do when the Middle East oil reserves are gone? Surrender to the French? Give up? Drink Kool Aid?
We've had this tutorial before. Now that we have fracking, horiz drilling, & access to Alaska & offshore reserves, we'll never run out of oil. A big part of our refining & distribution capacity is still set up to process Persian & Venezuelan crude. It has not yet been cost effective to completely convert to domestic crude & we're still building the pipelines necessary. Much of the rest of the world still depends on Persian Gulf oil, so it's supply impacts global oil prices & thus the global economy. We are not insulated from the economic impact.
Adapt. It's the beauty of free market capitalism. Taking oil by force has stunted that mechanism, which is part of my point.
Well well -- let's see who the world now looks to - to keep the sea lanes open coming out of the Gulf, now that Iran is attacking tankers again.
You're assuming so many things here. You're assuming if the US isn't over there, the oil will stop.
Let's see who else sends minesweepers & escorts convoys out of the Gulf. Are NATO, Japanese, Indian & Chinese warships underway yet ? You're assuming the only energy sources are in the Middle East.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:29 am
We didn't have fracking in '91.
Actually. We did. Read about it for yourself. Invented in the 40's. And that's my point. Now why weren't we fracking? Is it a complicated tech heavy invention? Nope. It's because gas has been cheap all this time, making the method financially inefficient, and making R&D pointless. War-for-ME-oil ruined that math, my friend. So we shelved the idea.
We didn't yet have the necessary horiz drilling capability. It's digital nav. Price did play a part, but not making it cheap enough to undercut Persian Gulf oil on the world market or drive the conversion of our refining & distribution capacity to use US crude only.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:29 am
We'd stopped building nuc power plants (go watch Jane Fonda in China Syndrome)
We haven't broken ground on a new nuc plant since 1977 & a new one hasn't come on line since 1990.
Yep. Why? Because instead, we CHOSE to send our military in to solve our energy problems. It was a CHOICE.
It was because of enviro scare tactics, after 3MI. Electricity is no longer a driving factor in US oil demand. Much less US elec or heating is based on oil. Transportation is the demand.
Where do you think these energy policies come from? They just fall from the sky? Santa tells us what to do every Dec 25th?
Market forces.
We CHOSE this path. You are laboring under the illusion that we have no choice in the matter. I have no Earthly idea why. Doubly so as you think that Trump's tariffs are no big thing....yet you want to go to war over one component of our economy.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:29 am
Sprawl was driven by more influential factors than gas prices.
Double gas prices in America for a decade. Watch where people choose to live. Watch how "magically" interested citizens become in mass transit options.
How's that CA high speed rail workin' out ? NYC & DC subways are worn out.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:29 am
How much innovation has high gas prices brought to Europe & Japan ?
This serious? Have you been to either? Europass ring a bell anywhere?
Toured all over W EU on my BSA 650 then Peugeot 205. Rode bullet train up & down Japan. Or high speed trains that we will never have in the US?
...or imported German diesels which have to cheat to meet US emissions standards. We can't even build high speed rail to run between LA & SF, or DC & NYC. Too disruptive to existing development.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:29 am
Look how much more energy efficient our vehicles, buildings, heating & AC have become, thanks to better design & innovation.
And government forcing the issue. Mileage standards. Market shortages---the ones you think we need to avoid at all costs--- pushed Japanese and EU makers as well as Americans to work on lighter, stronger materials.
I've never opposed reasonably attainable mpg or emissions standards or a floating gas tax that increases or decreases with global supply price, resulting in stable pump prices with slight yearly increases.
You want to halt natural market shortages with blood and war. And you don't seem to get that's what you're advocating. And don't understand that these prices effect where we live, what we drive, where we focus R&D.......you think these things are random. They're not.
It's not that I "want it". I'm realistic enough to understand that economic forces will drive us to expend blood & treasure to protect the US economy, standard of living & quality of life.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:29 am
Our economy & our way of life are based on motor vehicle travel & cheap gas.
Yes. That statement makes my point. Thank you.
It can 100% work without it.
Maybe when you & ACO try to impose it. Good luck with that.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:29 am
We're not compact like Europe with dense housing & reliable public transportation.
Yup. And that's a direct result of cheap gas. One led to the other. Get rid of cheap gas, and that will change. And we'll invest in fracking. And nuclear power. And natural gas. And solar. And wind. And, and, and.
EU won't frack. NY won't frack. Elec vehicle charging stations on the Autobahns for German coal fired elec, replacing their cheatin' diesels ? You global greenies got it all figured out.
We'll adapt. You think if we lose cheap gas we'll sit in the corner with a blanket over our head, and listen to the Cure's greatest hits on repeat.
We have -- fracking, DAPL, & aluminum F-150 pickups.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:29 am
It's insanity to think you could flip a switch in '91 or '79 & convert our way of life which developed based on motor vehicle transportation
Bit of an exaggeration, don't you think?
After all these years, you think that the ME would simply not drill if the US wasn't there? What would they do?
That stunt they pulled in the 1970's? Why do you supposed they've never done that again? Did OPEC forget? Or did America cut its ME oil demand in half inside of a decade?
Oil is trade. Something you and Trump don't seem to get. The ME needs customers. If they show the market that supply is erratic..what happens?
The ME is not monolithic as Iran vs the GCC is demonstrating.
That's right. The market reacts. It's why we're no longer driving 8mpg cars.
Iran is showing how easy it is for them to disrupt the flow.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:29 am
You & ACO need to run off to a hippie commune together or live among the Amish.
And you need to grow an imagination. If you were in charge, we'd have never made it to the moon.
Innovate. Adapt. It's the most American thing we do.
Ever notice how much time your party spends telling us how many things we can't do as a nation? Can't provide health care. Can't educate our citizens. When did we get so weak and ineffectual? What happened to your party? Weak sauce.
They're commuting to & from their Xburb McMansions, in their p/u's & crossover SUV's, getting > 20 mpg on ethanol blended clean burning gas, available at stable affordable prices. ...where do you think all the lax players come from ? ...& we'll fight to preserve it.