Yep. “Throw” it to the House or John “Palpatine” Roberts. He is a Sith Lord…Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 8:26 amYou appear to have missed the point, and the manner in which the coup was intended to be executed. The J6 mob, motley and disorganized as it was, was a part of the plan. Draft fake electors; create fake electoral votes; give them a false state "certification;" impede Congress from doing its job; create chaos; stay in office.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 7:31 amIf what happened at the Capitol on January 6 was supposed to be a coup it will will go down in history as the most pathetic attempt at a coup that the world has ever known. The only thing I saw was an out of control mob that crashed the Capital building and acted like a bunch of hoodlums and vandals. You should thank your lucky stars there wasn't an organized plan. They stood as good a chance of overturning the election than you or I have at becoming an astronaut. It was a national embarrassment no doubt. It wasn't a coup, there wasn't enough brain power in that mob to pull that off. You of all people should understand that. You share with us everyday how stupid these FRC folks are. They are not exactly the kind of folks with the smarts to pull anything off short of a parade.Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 7:15 am https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... te/680121/
"The “fire in a crowded theater” case involved neither a fire, nor a theater, nor a crowd, and resulted in one of the worst Supreme Court decisions ever reached. But the phrase fire in a crowded theater was repeated by both vice-presidential candidates during their debate on Tuesday, demonstrating an ongoing misunderstanding of free speech.
Toward the end of the debate, the Democratic vice-presidential nominee, Tim Walz, pointed out that former President Donald Trump tried to overturn—first by fraud and later by force—the 2020 presidential election, which he lost. J. D. Vance, the Republican who was selected to replace former Vice President Mike Pence on the ticket precisely because he is the sort of quisling lapdog who would participate in such a scheme, retorted that Walz supported “Facebook censorship.”
“You can’t yell ‘fire’ in a crowded theater. That’s the test. That’s the Supreme Court test,” Walz said.
“Tim. Fire in a crowded theater? You guys wanted to kick people off of Facebook for saying that toddlers should not wear masks,” Vance replied.
The equivalence that Vance draws between social-media moderation and Trump trying to stage a coup is ridiculous, but revealing in terms of how conservatives have come to conceive of free speech: They believe that right-wing speech should be sacrosanct, and liberal speech officially disfavored. Walz is simply wrong about the Supreme Court standard for what kind of speech can be outlawed, but the invocation of that archaic test does illustrate how safety can become an excuse for state censorship. It just so happens that social-media moderation is not state censorship, because social media is not the government.
In 1919, the Supreme Court upheld the convictions of socialist anti-war protesters under the Espionage Act in Schenk v. United States. The accused, Charles Schenk and Elizabeth Baer, had been passing out flyers urging people to resist the draft during World War I. The Court ruled unanimously in an opinion written by Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. that the convictions were constitutional, with Holmes writing, “The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic. It does not even protect a man from an injunction against uttering words that may have all the effect of force.” (The next time someone tries to tell you that “words are violence” is something left-wing college students came up with, remind them that the U.S. Supreme Court said it first.)
The cultural context here is as important as the legal one. As the legal scholar Geoffrey Stone writes in Perilous Times, the country was in the throes of the first Red Scare, and the Supreme Court was “firmly in conservative hands. The values and experiences of the justices led most of them to hold anarchists, socialists, and other ‘radical’ dissenters in contempt.” As Stone notes, Schenk and Baer’s pamphlets urged political support for repeal of the draft, not even unlawful obstruction of it. The justices, however, did not consider the political beliefs of those they were judging to have value, and therefore they had no problem seeing people thrown in jail for those beliefs, no matter what the First Amendment said. After all, it was wartime.
So there was no fire, no crowd, and no theater. What actually happened was that some people had unpopular political beliefs and the government wanted to throw them in jail, and the Supreme Court said that was fine. That also happens to be the kind of thing that Trump wants to do as president, the kind of thing that the arch-conservative Supreme Court has decided he should have immunity for doing.
The Schenk standard, however, was repealed in Brandenburg v. Ohio in 1969, a case involving Clarence Brandenburg, a Ku Klux Klan leader who was convicted under a state law that prohibited advocating political change through terrorism. The Supreme Court—then a liberal court, something that had not existed before and has not since—overturned his conviction, ruling that that government can only bar speech advocating “imminent lawless action” that is “likely to incite or produce such action.” Stone writes that the Court was trying to tie its own hands to prevent the government from acting under the spell of “fear and hysteria” that can be brought on by wartime. It’s a much better standard than the kind that gets you imprisoned for handing out pamphlets. (Vance, a Yale Law graduate, is probably aware that Trump’s speech working up a mob that went on to ransack the Capitol and try to hang Pence could meet that much higher standard, known as the “Brandenburg test.”)
But the fact that the government can put you in prison points to how matters of free speech are different for social-media companies. Social-media companies can’t put you in prison, because they are not the government. They can ban users for not adhering to their standards, but this in itself is a form of speech: Just as the right-wing website Breitbart does not have to publish my writing, social-media companies do not have to publish the content of users who violate their rules. Social-media moderation is not state censorship, and it should not be treated as such. Conservatives understand this when the moderation decisions land in their favor, which is why the union-busting billionaire Elon Musk’s favoritism toward conservative speech and attempts to silence his critics on the social-media platform X have not drawn the attention of the Republican majority in Congress. Nor should they—he owns the place; he can do what he wants with it. The point is that conservatives fully get the distinction when they want to.
Vance’s implicit position is that conservatives have a state-enforced right to the use of private platforms; that the state can and should force private companies to publish speech that those companies disagree with, as long as that speech is right-wing. Such a policy really would be a form of censorship.
Immediately after Trump’s disastrous September debate, conservatives, including Trump himself, began calling for ABC News to lose its broadcast license for fact-checking Trump’s lies about Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio. These threats of state retaliation against media outlets—or anyone who speaks out against Trump—illustrate that what conservatives mean when they talk about free speech is a legal right to use private platforms as venues for right-wing propaganda, whether or not those platforms wish to be used that way. That is a form of censorship far more authoritarian than private social-media platforms deciding they don’t want to carry rants about COVID shots putting microchips in your blood that can receive signals from alien invaders.
As for Walz, he foolishly cited an archaic standard that the Supreme Court has thankfully abandoned, one that in actuality shows how dangerous it can be for the government to pick and choose which speech is acceptable. Walz has previously asserted that “misinformation” and “hate speech” are not protected, a mistaken belief that is unfortunately popular among some on the left. The flawed standard he cited last night explains why such speech is and should be protected—because the window for state power to police what individual people say should be as small as reasonably possible.
His opponents Trump and Vance, however, do not think that such an approach is dangerous at all. A government that chooses which speech to punish and which to promote is their ideal situation, provided that they are the ones in charge."
Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING
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- Posts: 5352
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Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING
Barking up the wrong tree. Obama was ripped apart for not giving money or arms to Ukraine et. al. I cheered this choice, and was the only one here who did.
It would help the argument if Republicans complained about all the money and weapons we've handed out like candy for the last couple of decades....because they sound like the hypocrites that they are when Trump sends money and arms to Ukraine, and they don't say a word.
And then when Biden does it, it's bad. Next time? Pipe up BEFORE Trump gives them money and arms.
- cradleandshoot
- Posts: 15542
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm
Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING
The US loves giving out weapons. The government becomes a little testy when those weapons that are given away are actually used. The US gave Ukraine those long range surface to surface missiles that they still won't allow Ukraine to use to fire on Russian targets. Don't wanna tick off the Russians now do we?a fan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:50 amBarking up the wrong tree. Obama was ripped apart for not giving money or arms to Ukraine et. al. I cheered this choice, and was the only one here who did.
It would help the argument if Republicans complained about all the money and weapons we've handed out like candy for the last couple of decades....because they sound like the hypocrites that they are when Trump sends money and arms to Ukraine, and they don't say a word.
And then when Biden does it, it's bad. Next time? Pipe up BEFORE Trump gives them money and arms.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
Bob Ross:
- youthathletics
- Posts: 15945
- Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:36 pm
Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING
They are probably already in Russian hands, we also like to leave weapons and Biometric data for others to use...can't forget where that happened.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:18 amThe US loves giving out weapons. The government becomes a little testy when those weapons that are given away are actually used. The US gave Ukraine those long range surface to surface missiles that they still won't allow Ukraine to use to fire on Russian targets. Don't wanna tick off the Russians now do we?a fan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:50 amBarking up the wrong tree. Obama was ripped apart for not giving money or arms to Ukraine et. al. I cheered this choice, and was the only one here who did.
It would help the argument if Republicans complained about all the money and weapons we've handed out like candy for the last couple of decades....because they sound like the hypocrites that they are when Trump sends money and arms to Ukraine, and they don't say a word.
And then when Biden does it, it's bad. Next time? Pipe up BEFORE Trump gives them money and arms.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
~Livy
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
- MDlaxfan76
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Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING
Boy this is some dumb commentary above. Why do it?
- cradleandshoot
- Posts: 15542
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm
Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING
We left the Taliban pretty well supplied in Afghanistan too. Allah only knows how much good chit the military left behind over there. Is it too late for Joe Biden to collect rent on that state of the art airfield at Bagram? The Taliban could send the rent check to Joe Bidens brother...youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 1:28 pmThey are probably already in Russian hands, we also like to leave weapons and Biometric data for others to use...can't forget where that happened.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:18 amThe US loves giving out weapons. The government becomes a little testy when those weapons that are given away are actually used. The US gave Ukraine those long range surface to surface missiles that they still won't allow Ukraine to use to fire on Russian targets. Don't wanna tick off the Russians now do we?a fan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:50 amBarking up the wrong tree. Obama was ripped apart for not giving money or arms to Ukraine et. al. I cheered this choice, and was the only one here who did.
It would help the argument if Republicans complained about all the money and weapons we've handed out like candy for the last couple of decades....because they sound like the hypocrites that they are when Trump sends money and arms to Ukraine, and they don't say a word.
And then when Biden does it, it's bad. Next time? Pipe up BEFORE Trump gives them money and arms.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
Bob Ross:
Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING
Not the first time. The Japaneses returned our scrap steel to us at Pearl Harbor.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:11 pmWe left the Taliban pretty well supplied in Afghanistan too. Allah only knows how much good chit the military left behind over there. Is it too late for Joe Biden to collect rent on that state of the art airfield at Bagram? The Taliban could send the rent check to Joe Bidens brother...youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 1:28 pmThey are probably already in Russian hands, we also like to leave weapons and Biometric data for others to use...can't forget where that happened.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:18 amThe US loves giving out weapons. The government becomes a little testy when those weapons that are given away are actually used. The US gave Ukraine those long range surface to surface missiles that they still won't allow Ukraine to use to fire on Russian targets. Don't wanna tick off the Russians now do we?a fan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:50 amBarking up the wrong tree. Obama was ripped apart for not giving money or arms to Ukraine et. al. I cheered this choice, and was the only one here who did.
It would help the argument if Republicans complained about all the money and weapons we've handed out like candy for the last couple of decades....because they sound like the hypocrites that they are when Trump sends money and arms to Ukraine, and they don't say a word.
And then when Biden does it, it's bad. Next time? Pipe up BEFORE Trump gives them money and arms.
- cradleandshoot
- Posts: 15542
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm
Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING
And we returned a much smaller amount of scrap steel at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. War is hell my man, war is hell. The price per pound of scrap steel never pays the debt in full.Kismet wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:14 pmNot the first time. The Japaneses returned our scrap steel to us at Pearl Harbor.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:11 pmWe left the Taliban pretty well supplied in Afghanistan too. Allah only knows how much good chit the military left behind over there. Is it too late for Joe Biden to collect rent on that state of the art airfield at Bagram? The Taliban could send the rent check to Joe Bidens brother...youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 1:28 pmThey are probably already in Russian hands, we also like to leave weapons and Biometric data for others to use...can't forget where that happened.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:18 amThe US loves giving out weapons. The government becomes a little testy when those weapons that are given away are actually used. The US gave Ukraine those long range surface to surface missiles that they still won't allow Ukraine to use to fire on Russian targets. Don't wanna tick off the Russians now do we?a fan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:50 amBarking up the wrong tree. Obama was ripped apart for not giving money or arms to Ukraine et. al. I cheered this choice, and was the only one here who did.
It would help the argument if Republicans complained about all the money and weapons we've handed out like candy for the last couple of decades....because they sound like the hypocrites that they are when Trump sends money and arms to Ukraine, and they don't say a word.
And then when Biden does it, it's bad. Next time? Pipe up BEFORE Trump gives them money and arms.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
Bob Ross:
Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING
Actually, Likely more Uranium-235 than scrap steel in both Little Boy and Fat Mancradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:27 pmAnd we returned a much smaller amount of scrap steel at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. War is hell my man, war is hell. The price per pound of scrap steel never pays the debt in full.Kismet wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:14 pmNot the first time. The Japaneses returned our scrap steel to us at Pearl Harbor.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:11 pmWe left the Taliban pretty well supplied in Afghanistan too. Allah only knows how much good chit the military left behind over there. Is it too late for Joe Biden to collect rent on that state of the art airfield at Bagram? The Taliban could send the rent check to Joe Bidens brother...youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 1:28 pmThey are probably already in Russian hands, we also like to leave weapons and Biometric data for others to use...can't forget where that happened.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:18 amThe US loves giving out weapons. The government becomes a little testy when those weapons that are given away are actually used. The US gave Ukraine those long range surface to surface missiles that they still won't allow Ukraine to use to fire on Russian targets. Don't wanna tick off the Russians now do we?a fan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:50 amBarking up the wrong tree. Obama was ripped apart for not giving money or arms to Ukraine et. al. I cheered this choice, and was the only one here who did.
It would help the argument if Republicans complained about all the money and weapons we've handed out like candy for the last couple of decades....because they sound like the hypocrites that they are when Trump sends money and arms to Ukraine, and they don't say a word.
And then when Biden does it, it's bad. Next time? Pipe up BEFORE Trump gives them money and arms.
- 3rdPersonPlural
- Posts: 621
- Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:09 pm
- Location: Sorta Transient now
Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING
Did we? The beef about Ukraine is that they can't do the maintenance on the equipment we send them. Despite exhaustive training.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:11 pmWe left the Taliban pretty well supplied in Afghanistan too. Allah only knows how much good chit the military left behind over there. Is it too late for Joe Biden to collect rent on that state of the art airfield at Bagram? The Taliban could send the rent check to Joe Bidens brother...youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 1:28 pmThey are probably already in Russian hands, we also like to leave weapons and Biometric data for others to use...can't forget where that happened.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:18 amThe US loves giving out weapons. The government becomes a little testy when those weapons that are given away are actually used. The US gave Ukraine those long range surface to surface missiles that they still won't allow Ukraine to use to fire on Russian targets. Don't wanna tick off the Russians now do we?a fan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:50 amBarking up the wrong tree. Obama was ripped apart for not giving money or arms to Ukraine et. al. I cheered this choice, and was the only one here who did.
It would help the argument if Republicans complained about all the money and weapons we've handed out like candy for the last couple of decades....because they sound like the hypocrites that they are when Trump sends money and arms to Ukraine, and they don't say a word.
And then when Biden does it, it's bad. Next time? Pipe up BEFORE Trump gives them money and arms.
I'd be surprised if anything airborne that we left is still flying safely, or anything on wheels or tracks is still chugging along, and my observation for MilTech is that the higher the tech, the shorter the service intervals.
- cradleandshoot
- Posts: 15542
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm
Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING
Dude the USA just assisted in sending a bunch of very capable old school F16 fighters to Ukraine. The Ukrainian pilots have flown nothing but Russian MiGs their entire lives. Flying a MiG and learning to fly an F16 creates an entire new learning curve for the pilots. If ANY of you folks had been paying attention Old Salt tried to explain this conundrum to all you. With the exception of our Bradley IFVs and 155s the Ukrainian military has been challenged to adapt our equipment to their war.3rdPersonPlural wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:42 pmDid we? The beef about Ukraine is that they can't do the maintenance on the equipment we send them. Despite exhaustive training.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:11 pmWe left the Taliban pretty well supplied in Afghanistan too. Allah only knows how much good chit the military left behind over there. Is it too late for Joe Biden to collect rent on that state of the art airfield at Bagram? The Taliban could send the rent check to Joe Bidens brother...youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 1:28 pmThey are probably already in Russian hands, we also like to leave weapons and Biometric data for others to use...can't forget where that happened.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:18 amThe US loves giving out weapons. The government becomes a little testy when those weapons that are given away are actually used. The US gave Ukraine those long range surface to surface missiles that they still won't allow Ukraine to use to fire on Russian targets. Don't wanna tick off the Russians now do we?a fan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:50 amBarking up the wrong tree. Obama was ripped apart for not giving money or arms to Ukraine et. al. I cheered this choice, and was the only one here who did.
It would help the argument if Republicans complained about all the money and weapons we've handed out like candy for the last couple of decades....because they sound like the hypocrites that they are when Trump sends money and arms to Ukraine, and they don't say a word.
And then when Biden does it, it's bad. Next time? Pipe up BEFORE Trump gives them money and arms.
I'd be surprised if anything airborne that we left is still flying safely, or anything on wheels or tracks is still chugging along, and my observation for MilTech is that the higher the tech, the shorter the service intervals.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
Bob Ross:
Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING
The Ukrainians started training on US equipment last year.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/25/politics ... index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/25/politics ... index.html
Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING
Ukrainians started training on US equipment last year.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:56 pmDude the USA just assisted in sending a bunch of very capable old school F16 fighters to Ukraine. The Ukrainian pilots have flown nothing but Russian MiGs their entire lives. Flying a MiG and learning to fly an F16 creates an entire new learning curve for the pilots. If ANY of you folks had been paying attention Old Salt tried to explain this conundrum to all you. With the exception of our Bradley IFVs and 155s the Ukrainian military has been challenged to adapt our equipment to their war.3rdPersonPlural wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:42 pmDid we? The beef about Ukraine is that they can't do the maintenance on the equipment we send them. Despite exhaustive training.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:11 pmWe left the Taliban pretty well supplied in Afghanistan too. Allah only knows how much good chit the military left behind over there. Is it too late for Joe Biden to collect rent on that state of the art airfield at Bagram? The Taliban could send the rent check to Joe Bidens brother...youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 1:28 pmThey are probably already in Russian hands, we also like to leave weapons and Biometric data for others to use...can't forget where that happened.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:18 amThe US loves giving out weapons. The government becomes a little testy when those weapons that are given away are actually used. The US gave Ukraine those long range surface to surface missiles that they still won't allow Ukraine to use to fire on Russian targets. Don't wanna tick off the Russians now do we?a fan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:50 amBarking up the wrong tree. Obama was ripped apart for not giving money or arms to Ukraine et. al. I cheered this choice, and was the only one here who did.
It would help the argument if Republicans complained about all the money and weapons we've handed out like candy for the last couple of decades....because they sound like the hypocrites that they are when Trump sends money and arms to Ukraine, and they don't say a word.
And then when Biden does it, it's bad. Next time? Pipe up BEFORE Trump gives them money and arms.
I'd be surprised if anything airborne that we left is still flying safely, or anything on wheels or tracks is still chugging along, and my observation for MilTech is that the higher the tech, the shorter the service intervals.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/25/politics ... index.html
- cradleandshoot
- Posts: 15542
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm
Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING
Huge difference between flying a MiG 29 and flying an F16. Most Ukrainian pilots have Soviet era fighters ingrained into their flying repertoire. Old Salt explained this issue awhile back on this forum. My memory tells me that retraining pilots to be competent flying F16 is not something accomplished in a few months. The Ukrainian Air Force is learning they have to fly differently and use different tactics than they have used before. An anology was having spoken English your entire life then being expected to be proficient in another language in a few months.OCanada wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 5:41 pmUkrainians started training on US equipment last year.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:56 pmDude the USA just assisted in sending a bunch of very capable old school F16 fighters to Ukraine. The Ukrainian pilots have flown nothing but Russian MiGs their entire lives. Flying a MiG and learning to fly an F16 creates an entire new learning curve for the pilots. If ANY of you folks had been paying attention Old Salt tried to explain this conundrum to all you. With the exception of our Bradley IFVs and 155s the Ukrainian military has been challenged to adapt our equipment to their war.3rdPersonPlural wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:42 pmDid we? The beef about Ukraine is that they can't do the maintenance on the equipment we send them. Despite exhaustive training.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:11 pmWe left the Taliban pretty well supplied in Afghanistan too. Allah only knows how much good chit the military left behind over there. Is it too late for Joe Biden to collect rent on that state of the art airfield at Bagram? The Taliban could send the rent check to Joe Bidens brother...youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 1:28 pmThey are probably already in Russian hands, we also like to leave weapons and Biometric data for others to use...can't forget where that happened.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:18 amThe US loves giving out weapons. The government becomes a little testy when those weapons that are given away are actually used. The US gave Ukraine those long range surface to surface missiles that they still won't allow Ukraine to use to fire on Russian targets. Don't wanna tick off the Russians now do we?a fan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:50 amBarking up the wrong tree. Obama was ripped apart for not giving money or arms to Ukraine et. al. I cheered this choice, and was the only one here who did.
It would help the argument if Republicans complained about all the money and weapons we've handed out like candy for the last couple of decades....because they sound like the hypocrites that they are when Trump sends money and arms to Ukraine, and they don't say a word.
And then when Biden does it, it's bad. Next time? Pipe up BEFORE Trump gives them money and arms.
I'd be surprised if anything airborne that we left is still flying safely, or anything on wheels or tracks is still chugging along, and my observation for MilTech is that the higher the tech, the shorter the service intervals.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/25/politics ... index.html
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
Bob Ross:
- 3rdPersonPlural
- Posts: 621
- Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:09 pm
- Location: Sorta Transient now
Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING
Yup, but the Ukrainian pilots were well trained. The question is about the ground crew, which everyone who knows how to fight F-16s is about 6 times (by hours spent) more important than the pilot. Did we train enough?cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:56 pmDude the USA just assisted in sending a bunch of very capable old school F16 fighters to Ukraine. The Ukrainian pilots have flown nothing but Russian MiGs their entire lives. Flying a MiG and learning to fly an F16 creates an entire new learning curve for the pilots. If ANY of you folks had been paying attention Old Salt tried to explain this conundrum to all you. With the exception of our Bradley IFVs and 155s the Ukrainian military has been challenged to adapt our equipment to their war.3rdPersonPlural wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:42 pmDid we? The beef about Ukraine is that they can't do the maintenance on the equipment we send them. Despite exhaustive training.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:11 pmWe left the Taliban pretty well supplied in Afghanistan too. Allah only knows how much good chit the military left behind over there. Is it too late for Joe Biden to collect rent on that state of the art airfield at Bagram? The Taliban could send the rent check to Joe Bidens brother...youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 1:28 pmThey are probably already in Russian hands, we also like to leave weapons and Biometric data for others to use...can't forget where that happened.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:18 amThe US loves giving out weapons. The government becomes a little testy when those weapons that are given away are actually used. The US gave Ukraine those long range surface to surface missiles that they still won't allow Ukraine to use to fire on Russian targets. Don't wanna tick off the Russians now do we?a fan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:50 amBarking up the wrong tree. Obama was ripped apart for not giving money or arms to Ukraine et. al. I cheered this choice, and was the only one here who did.
It would help the argument if Republicans complained about all the money and weapons we've handed out like candy for the last couple of decades....because they sound like the hypocrites that they are when Trump sends money and arms to Ukraine, and they don't say a word.
And then when Biden does it, it's bad. Next time? Pipe up BEFORE Trump gives them money and arms.
I'd be surprised if anything airborne that we left is still flying safely, or anything on wheels or tracks is still chugging along, and my observation for MilTech is that the higher the tech, the shorter the service intervals.
We all recognize the problem: Operating an Abrams tank takes a small (but well trained) crew and a huge ground crew (perhaps better trained) with abundant spare parts. Did we prepaqre this crew in Ukraine?
This works for a superpower with rich training resources. Not so well for a country like Ukraine.
Our artillery and Bradleys and ATACMS work better. Let the Europeans send tanks and (as they're doing) train the f-16 ground crews.
Holy cow, fellas. We are not just figuring this out. But we're trying to keep Russia from sweeping over to the river Vistula and the Carpathian Mountains. We all know what they are gunnin' for.
This conflict is a less drastic version of the war that we built trillions of dollars worth of hardware to fight (as did Russia) and is now being fought without a single US GI in harms way(!). Let's dispose of our old cold war stuff in Ukraine. Let's learn what 'the next war' will look like and plan accordingly. Shipping elderly hardware that has no utility in our latest war plans to Ukraine rather then paying to have it 'decommissioned' is a huge advantage.
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Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING
Good post; thanks 3PP.3rdPersonPlural wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 6:30 pmYup, but the Ukrainian pilots were well trained. The question is about the ground crew, which everyone who knows how to fight F-16s is about 6 times (by hours spent) more important than the pilot. Did we train enough?cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:56 pmDude the USA just assisted in sending a bunch of very capable old school F16 fighters to Ukraine. The Ukrainian pilots have flown nothing but Russian MiGs their entire lives. Flying a MiG and learning to fly an F16 creates an entire new learning curve for the pilots. If ANY of you folks had been paying attention Old Salt tried to explain this conundrum to all you. With the exception of our Bradley IFVs and 155s the Ukrainian military has been challenged to adapt our equipment to their war.3rdPersonPlural wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:42 pmDid we? The beef about Ukraine is that they can't do the maintenance on the equipment we send them. Despite exhaustive training.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:11 pmWe left the Taliban pretty well supplied in Afghanistan too. Allah only knows how much good chit the military left behind over there. Is it too late for Joe Biden to collect rent on that state of the art airfield at Bagram? The Taliban could send the rent check to Joe Bidens brother...youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 1:28 pmThey are probably already in Russian hands, we also like to leave weapons and Biometric data for others to use...can't forget where that happened.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:18 amThe US loves giving out weapons. The government becomes a little testy when those weapons that are given away are actually used. The US gave Ukraine those long range surface to surface missiles that they still won't allow Ukraine to use to fire on Russian targets. Don't wanna tick off the Russians now do we?a fan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:50 amBarking up the wrong tree. Obama was ripped apart for not giving money or arms to Ukraine et. al. I cheered this choice, and was the only one here who did.
It would help the argument if Republicans complained about all the money and weapons we've handed out like candy for the last couple of decades....because they sound like the hypocrites that they are when Trump sends money and arms to Ukraine, and they don't say a word.
And then when Biden does it, it's bad. Next time? Pipe up BEFORE Trump gives them money and arms.
I'd be surprised if anything airborne that we left is still flying safely, or anything on wheels or tracks is still chugging along, and my observation for MilTech is that the higher the tech, the shorter the service intervals.
We all recognize the problem: Operating an Abrams tank takes a small (but well trained) crew and a huge ground crew (perhaps better trained) with abundant spare parts. Did we prepaqre this crew in Ukraine?
This works for a superpower with rich training resources. Not so well for a country like Ukraine.
Our artillery and Bradleys and ATACMS work better. Let the Europeans send tanks and (as they're doing) train the f-16 ground crews.
Holy cow, fellas. We are not just figuring this out. But we're trying to keep Russia from sweeping over to the river Vistula and the Carpathian Mountains. We all know what they are gunnin' for.
This conflict is a less drastic version of the war that we built trillions of dollars worth of hardware to fight (as did Russia) and is now being fought without a single US GI in harms way(!). Let's dispose of our old cold war stuff in Ukraine. Let's learn what 'the next war' will look like and plan accordingly. Shipping elderly hardware that has no utility in our latest war plans to Ukraine rather then paying to have it 'decommissioned' is a huge advantage.
Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING
You mean that Cradle does not have personal direct experience piloting or maintaining either F-16s or MIGs?Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 6:35 pmGood post; thanks 3PP.3rdPersonPlural wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 6:30 pmYup, but the Ukrainian pilots were well trained. The question is about the ground crew, which everyone who knows how to fight F-16s is about 6 times (by hours spent) more important than the pilot. Did we train enough?cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:56 pmDude the USA just assisted in sending a bunch of very capable old school F16 fighters to Ukraine. The Ukrainian pilots have flown nothing but Russian MiGs their entire lives. Flying a MiG and learning to fly an F16 creates an entire new learning curve for the pilots. If ANY of you folks had been paying attention Old Salt tried to explain this conundrum to all you. With the exception of our Bradley IFVs and 155s the Ukrainian military has been challenged to adapt our equipment to their war.3rdPersonPlural wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:42 pmDid we? The beef about Ukraine is that they can't do the maintenance on the equipment we send them. Despite exhaustive training.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:11 pmWe left the Taliban pretty well supplied in Afghanistan too. Allah only knows how much good chit the military left behind over there. Is it too late for Joe Biden to collect rent on that state of the art airfield at Bagram? The Taliban could send the rent check to Joe Bidens brother...youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 1:28 pmThey are probably already in Russian hands, we also like to leave weapons and Biometric data for others to use...can't forget where that happened.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:18 amThe US loves giving out weapons. The government becomes a little testy when those weapons that are given away are actually used. The US gave Ukraine those long range surface to surface missiles that they still won't allow Ukraine to use to fire on Russian targets. Don't wanna tick off the Russians now do we?a fan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:50 amBarking up the wrong tree. Obama was ripped apart for not giving money or arms to Ukraine et. al. I cheered this choice, and was the only one here who did.
It would help the argument if Republicans complained about all the money and weapons we've handed out like candy for the last couple of decades....because they sound like the hypocrites that they are when Trump sends money and arms to Ukraine, and they don't say a word.
And then when Biden does it, it's bad. Next time? Pipe up BEFORE Trump gives them money and arms.
I'd be surprised if anything airborne that we left is still flying safely, or anything on wheels or tracks is still chugging along, and my observation for MilTech is that the higher the tech, the shorter the service intervals.
We all recognize the problem: Operating an Abrams tank takes a small (but well trained) crew and a huge ground crew (perhaps better trained) with abundant spare parts. Did we prepaqre this crew in Ukraine?
This works for a superpower with rich training resources. Not so well for a country like Ukraine.
Our artillery and Bradleys and ATACMS work better. Let the Europeans send tanks and (as they're doing) train the f-16 ground crews.
Holy cow, fellas. We are not just figuring this out. But we're trying to keep Russia from sweeping over to the river Vistula and the Carpathian Mountains. We all know what they are gunnin' for.
This conflict is a less drastic version of the war that we built trillions of dollars worth of hardware to fight (as did Russia) and is now being fought without a single US GI in harms way(!). Let's dispose of our old cold war stuff in Ukraine. Let's learn what 'the next war' will look like and plan accordingly. Shipping elderly hardware that has no utility in our latest war plans to Ukraine rather then paying to have it 'decommissioned' is a huge advantage.