Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

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a fan
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Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by a fan »

PizzaSnake wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2024 11:12 am
Kismet wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 9:42 am https://www.propublica.org/article/ariz ... t-meltdown

"School Vouchers Were Supposed to Save Taxpayer Money. Instead They Blew a Massive Hole in Arizona’s Budget.
In 2022, Arizona pioneered the largest school voucher program in the history of education. Under a new law, any parent in the state, no matter how affluent, could get a taxpayer-funded voucher worth up to tens of thousands of dollars to spend on private school tuition, extracurricular programs or homeschooling supplies.

In just the past two years, nearly a dozen states have enacted sweeping voucher programs similar to Arizona’s Empowerment Scholarship Account system, with many using it as a model.

Yet in a lesson for these other states, Arizona’s voucher experiment has since precipitated a budget meltdown. The state this year faced a $1.4 billion budget shortfall, much of which was a result of the new voucher spending, according to the Grand Canyon Institute, a local nonpartisan fiscal and economic policy think tank. Last fiscal year alone, the price tag of universal vouchers in Arizona skyrocketed from an original official estimate of just under $65 million to roughly $332 million, the Grand Canyon analysis found; another $429 million in costs is expected this year.

As a result of all this unexpected spending, alongside some recent revenue losses, Arizona is now having to make deep cuts to a wide swath of critical state programs and projects, the pain of which will be felt by average Arizonans who may or may not have school-aged children.

Among the funding slashed: $333 million for water infrastructure projects, in a state where water scarcity will shape the future, and tens of millions of dollars for highway expansions and repairs in congested areas of one of the nation’s fastest-growing metropolises — Phoenix and its suburbs. Also nixed were improvements to the air conditioning in state prisons, where temperatures can soar above 100 degrees. Arizona’s community colleges, too, are seeing their budgets cut by $54 million."
Let them drink water…
Wait....so adding in a layer of profit, and cutting the size of schools from one school with 1,000 kids per school to 10 schools with 100 kids per school isn't more financially efficient?

Nooooooooo. Really?
OCanada
Posts: 3684
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by OCanada »

a fan wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 12:16 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2024 11:12 am
Kismet wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 9:42 am https://www.propublica.org/article/ariz ... t-meltdown

"School Vouchers Were Supposed to Save Taxpayer Money. Instead They Blew a Massive Hole in Arizona’s Budget.
In 2022, Arizona pioneered the largest school voucher program in the history of education. Under a new law, any parent in the state, no matter how affluent, could get a taxpayer-funded voucher worth up to tens of thousands of dollars to spend on private school tuition, extracurricular programs or homeschooling supplies.

In just the past two years, nearly a dozen states have enacted sweeping voucher programs similar to Arizona’s Empowerment Scholarship Account system, with many using it as a model.

Yet in a lesson for these other states, Arizona’s voucher experiment has since precipitated a budget meltdown. The state this year faced a $1.4 billion budget shortfall, much of which was a result of the new voucher spending, according to the Grand Canyon Institute, a local nonpartisan fiscal and economic policy think tank. Last fiscal year alone, the price tag of universal vouchers in Arizona skyrocketed from an original official estimate of just under $65 million to roughly $332 million, the Grand Canyon analysis found; another $429 million in costs is expected this year.

As a result of all this unexpected spending, alongside some recent revenue losses, Arizona is now having to make deep cuts to a wide swath of critical state programs and projects, the pain of which will be felt by average Arizonans who may or may not have school-aged children.

Among the funding slashed: $333 million for water infrastructure projects, in a state where water scarcity will shape the future, and tens of millions of dollars for highway expansions and repairs in congested areas of one of the nation’s fastest-growing metropolises — Phoenix and its suburbs. Also nixed were improvements to the air conditioning in state prisons, where temperatures can soar above 100 degrees. Arizona’s community colleges, too, are seeing their budgets cut by $54 million."
Let them drink water…
Wait....so adding in a layer of profit, and cutting the size of schools from one school with 1,000 kids per school to 10 schools with 100 kids per school isn't more financially efficient?

Nooooooooo. Really?
AZ is a warer deficit state. They should not be trying to grow their way out of financial difficulty. They have been a water deficit state fir decades. Utah is too. What their ultimate goal is puzzles me but the way they are directing growth seems counter productive unless they believe they can increase their water allocation.

Texas maybe three decades ago recognizing their water problem wanted to take water from the Mississippi. The route would be uphill. Reality set in when they discovered the cost of pumping the water. Texas and a couple other states then turned their attention to the Great Lakes. All that fresh water. That was stopped. But maybe that big fawcett in Canada Trump talks about can be turned on.
a fan
Posts: 19688
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by a fan »

OCanada wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 12:48 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 12:16 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2024 11:12 am
Kismet wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 9:42 am https://www.propublica.org/article/ariz ... t-meltdown

"School Vouchers Were Supposed to Save Taxpayer Money. Instead They Blew a Massive Hole in Arizona’s Budget.
In 2022, Arizona pioneered the largest school voucher program in the history of education. Under a new law, any parent in the state, no matter how affluent, could get a taxpayer-funded voucher worth up to tens of thousands of dollars to spend on private school tuition, extracurricular programs or homeschooling supplies.

In just the past two years, nearly a dozen states have enacted sweeping voucher programs similar to Arizona’s Empowerment Scholarship Account system, with many using it as a model.

Yet in a lesson for these other states, Arizona’s voucher experiment has since precipitated a budget meltdown. The state this year faced a $1.4 billion budget shortfall, much of which was a result of the new voucher spending, according to the Grand Canyon Institute, a local nonpartisan fiscal and economic policy think tank. Last fiscal year alone, the price tag of universal vouchers in Arizona skyrocketed from an original official estimate of just under $65 million to roughly $332 million, the Grand Canyon analysis found; another $429 million in costs is expected this year.

As a result of all this unexpected spending, alongside some recent revenue losses, Arizona is now having to make deep cuts to a wide swath of critical state programs and projects, the pain of which will be felt by average Arizonans who may or may not have school-aged children.

Among the funding slashed: $333 million for water infrastructure projects, in a state where water scarcity will shape the future, and tens of millions of dollars for highway expansions and repairs in congested areas of one of the nation’s fastest-growing metropolises — Phoenix and its suburbs. Also nixed were improvements to the air conditioning in state prisons, where temperatures can soar above 100 degrees. Arizona’s community colleges, too, are seeing their budgets cut by $54 million."
Let them drink water…
Wait....so adding in a layer of profit, and cutting the size of schools from one school with 1,000 kids per school to 10 schools with 100 kids per school isn't more financially efficient?

Nooooooooo. Really?
AZ is a warer deficit state. They should not be trying to grow their way out of financial difficulty. They have been a water deficit state fir decades. Utah is too. What their ultimate goal is puzzles me but the way they are directing growth seems counter productive unless they believe they can increase their water allocation.

Texas maybe three decades ago recognizing their water problem wanted to take water from the Mississippi. The route would be uphill. Reality set in when they discovered the cost of pumping the water. Texas and a couple other states then turned their attention to the Great Lakes. All that fresh water. That was stopped. But maybe that big fawcett in Canada Trump talks about can be turned on.
They believe what all Republicans in 2024 believe: the Federal Government will bail them out by borrowing money that the next gen will pay back.

And they believe that Federal Spending was on "something else", and that they didn't get a dime from the Federal Government.

The Real Conservative Republicans of the 70's would NEVER have let this happen. Reagan showed them they could have it all......Big Government on borrowed money, paying for the stuff the R low tax States don't want to pay for..... And they're addicted to it.
OCanada
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Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by OCanada »

Reagan got debasing our currency off to a big start. Trump was the latest to give it a big push.

A little long but perspective

https://www.theglobalist.com/united-sta ... -election/
SCLaxAttack
Posts: 1728
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:24 pm

Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by SCLaxAttack »

a fan wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 12:16 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2024 11:12 am
Kismet wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 9:42 am https://www.propublica.org/article/ariz ... t-meltdown

"School Vouchers Were Supposed to Save Taxpayer Money. Instead They Blew a Massive Hole in Arizona’s Budget.
In 2022, Arizona pioneered the largest school voucher program in the history of education. Under a new law, any parent in the state, no matter how affluent, could get a taxpayer-funded voucher worth up to tens of thousands of dollars to spend on private school tuition, extracurricular programs or homeschooling supplies.

In just the past two years, nearly a dozen states have enacted sweeping voucher programs similar to Arizona’s Empowerment Scholarship Account system, with many using it as a model.

Yet in a lesson for these other states, Arizona’s voucher experiment has since precipitated a budget meltdown. The state this year faced a $1.4 billion budget shortfall, much of which was a result of the new voucher spending, according to the Grand Canyon Institute, a local nonpartisan fiscal and economic policy think tank. Last fiscal year alone, the price tag of universal vouchers in Arizona skyrocketed from an original official estimate of just under $65 million to roughly $332 million, the Grand Canyon analysis found; another $429 million in costs is expected this year.

As a result of all this unexpected spending, alongside some recent revenue losses, Arizona is now having to make deep cuts to a wide swath of critical state programs and projects, the pain of which will be felt by average Arizonans who may or may not have school-aged children.

Among the funding slashed: $333 million for water infrastructure projects, in a state where water scarcity will shape the future, and tens of millions of dollars for highway expansions and repairs in congested areas of one of the nation’s fastest-growing metropolises — Phoenix and its suburbs. Also nixed were improvements to the air conditioning in state prisons, where temperatures can soar above 100 degrees. Arizona’s community colleges, too, are seeing their budgets cut by $54 million."
Let them drink water…
Wait....so adding in a layer of profit, and cutting the size of schools from one school with 1,000 kids per school to 10 schools with 100 kids per school isn't more financially efficient?

Nooooooooo. Really?
I may be wrong about this (I probably am), but my understanding is it's actually worse than you describe. Each parent who had a kid in private school paid their normal school taxes and for their kid's private school. Now they get to move the money placed in their voucher from their public school's budget to the private school they'd previously paid separately for. The rich parents love it because now they're paying less for their kid's education while the kids in public schools don't have the same amount of budget/student. But that's the American way these days.
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
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Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

SCLaxAttack wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 2:24 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 12:16 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2024 11:12 am
Kismet wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 9:42 am https://www.propublica.org/article/ariz ... t-meltdown

"School Vouchers Were Supposed to Save Taxpayer Money. Instead They Blew a Massive Hole in Arizona’s Budget.
In 2022, Arizona pioneered the largest school voucher program in the history of education. Under a new law, any parent in the state, no matter how affluent, could get a taxpayer-funded voucher worth up to tens of thousands of dollars to spend on private school tuition, extracurricular programs or homeschooling supplies.

In just the past two years, nearly a dozen states have enacted sweeping voucher programs similar to Arizona’s Empowerment Scholarship Account system, with many using it as a model.

Yet in a lesson for these other states, Arizona’s voucher experiment has since precipitated a budget meltdown. The state this year faced a $1.4 billion budget shortfall, much of which was a result of the new voucher spending, according to the Grand Canyon Institute, a local nonpartisan fiscal and economic policy think tank. Last fiscal year alone, the price tag of universal vouchers in Arizona skyrocketed from an original official estimate of just under $65 million to roughly $332 million, the Grand Canyon analysis found; another $429 million in costs is expected this year.

As a result of all this unexpected spending, alongside some recent revenue losses, Arizona is now having to make deep cuts to a wide swath of critical state programs and projects, the pain of which will be felt by average Arizonans who may or may not have school-aged children.

Among the funding slashed: $333 million for water infrastructure projects, in a state where water scarcity will shape the future, and tens of millions of dollars for highway expansions and repairs in congested areas of one of the nation’s fastest-growing metropolises — Phoenix and its suburbs. Also nixed were improvements to the air conditioning in state prisons, where temperatures can soar above 100 degrees. Arizona’s community colleges, too, are seeing their budgets cut by $54 million."
Let them drink water…
Wait....so adding in a layer of profit, and cutting the size of schools from one school with 1,000 kids per school to 10 schools with 100 kids per school isn't more financially efficient?

Nooooooooo. Really?
I may be wrong about this (I probably am), but my understanding is it's actually worse than you describe. Each parent who had a kid in private school paid their normal school taxes and for their kid's private school. Now they get to move the money placed in their voucher from their public school's budget to the private school they'd previously paid separately for. The rich parents love it because now they're paying less for their kid's education while the kids in public schools don't have the same amount of budget/student. But that's the American way these days.
Super dumb, and fully foreseeable.

By actual conservatives.

Windfalls for the rich and highly inefficient spending ain’t conservative. Just greedy and dumb.
a fan
Posts: 19688
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by a fan »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 3:15 pm
SCLaxAttack wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 2:24 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 12:16 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2024 11:12 am
Kismet wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 9:42 am https://www.propublica.org/article/ariz ... t-meltdown

"School Vouchers Were Supposed to Save Taxpayer Money. Instead They Blew a Massive Hole in Arizona’s Budget.
In 2022, Arizona pioneered the largest school voucher program in the history of education. Under a new law, any parent in the state, no matter how affluent, could get a taxpayer-funded voucher worth up to tens of thousands of dollars to spend on private school tuition, extracurricular programs or homeschooling supplies.

In just the past two years, nearly a dozen states have enacted sweeping voucher programs similar to Arizona’s Empowerment Scholarship Account system, with many using it as a model.

Yet in a lesson for these other states, Arizona’s voucher experiment has since precipitated a budget meltdown. The state this year faced a $1.4 billion budget shortfall, much of which was a result of the new voucher spending, according to the Grand Canyon Institute, a local nonpartisan fiscal and economic policy think tank. Last fiscal year alone, the price tag of universal vouchers in Arizona skyrocketed from an original official estimate of just under $65 million to roughly $332 million, the Grand Canyon analysis found; another $429 million in costs is expected this year.

As a result of all this unexpected spending, alongside some recent revenue losses, Arizona is now having to make deep cuts to a wide swath of critical state programs and projects, the pain of which will be felt by average Arizonans who may or may not have school-aged children.

Among the funding slashed: $333 million for water infrastructure projects, in a state where water scarcity will shape the future, and tens of millions of dollars for highway expansions and repairs in congested areas of one of the nation’s fastest-growing metropolises — Phoenix and its suburbs. Also nixed were improvements to the air conditioning in state prisons, where temperatures can soar above 100 degrees. Arizona’s community colleges, too, are seeing their budgets cut by $54 million."
Let them drink water…
Wait....so adding in a layer of profit, and cutting the size of schools from one school with 1,000 kids per school to 10 schools with 100 kids per school isn't more financially efficient?

Nooooooooo. Really?
I may be wrong about this (I probably am), but my understanding is it's actually worse than you describe. Each parent who had a kid in private school paid their normal school taxes and for their kid's private school. Now they get to move the money placed in their voucher from their public school's budget to the private school they'd previously paid separately for. The rich parents love it because now they're paying less for their kid's education while the kids in public schools don't have the same amount of budget/student. But that's the American way these days.
Super dumb, and fully foreseeable.

By actual conservatives.

Windfalls for the rich and highly inefficient spending ain’t conservative. Just greedy and dumb.
Yep. Dunno how many more times I have to say this: these people aren't conservatives. And they sure as sh(t aren't looking out for the working class. But any time you say that, MAGA gets mad, and starts yelling about the Dems.

They don't understand that telling us the Dems are bad isn't a substitute for telling us how the R's plan to fix problems.
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 34235
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

a fan wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 12:16 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2024 11:12 am
Kismet wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 9:42 am https://www.propublica.org/article/ariz ... t-meltdown

"School Vouchers Were Supposed to Save Taxpayer Money. Instead They Blew a Massive Hole in Arizona’s Budget.
In 2022, Arizona pioneered the largest school voucher program in the history of education. Under a new law, any parent in the state, no matter how affluent, could get a taxpayer-funded voucher worth up to tens of thousands of dollars to spend on private school tuition, extracurricular programs or homeschooling supplies.

In just the past two years, nearly a dozen states have enacted sweeping voucher programs similar to Arizona’s Empowerment Scholarship Account system, with many using it as a model.

Yet in a lesson for these other states, Arizona’s voucher experiment has since precipitated a budget meltdown. The state this year faced a $1.4 billion budget shortfall, much of which was a result of the new voucher spending, according to the Grand Canyon Institute, a local nonpartisan fiscal and economic policy think tank. Last fiscal year alone, the price tag of universal vouchers in Arizona skyrocketed from an original official estimate of just under $65 million to roughly $332 million, the Grand Canyon analysis found; another $429 million in costs is expected this year.

As a result of all this unexpected spending, alongside some recent revenue losses, Arizona is now having to make deep cuts to a wide swath of critical state programs and projects, the pain of which will be felt by average Arizonans who may or may not have school-aged children.

Among the funding slashed: $333 million for water infrastructure projects, in a state where water scarcity will shape the future, and tens of millions of dollars for highway expansions and repairs in congested areas of one of the nation’s fastest-growing metropolises — Phoenix and its suburbs. Also nixed were improvements to the air conditioning in state prisons, where temperatures can soar above 100 degrees. Arizona’s community colleges, too, are seeing their budgets cut by $54 million."
Let them drink water…
Wait....so adding in a layer of profit, and cutting the size of schools from one school with 1,000 kids per school to 10 schools with 100 kids per school isn't more financially efficient?

Nooooooooo. Really?
And for more inefficiency, the public school can’t downsize because they have to ensure there is enough public school capacity for the district. My old boss’s wife was founder for a Charter School organization that owned and operated over 40 Charter Schools. She eventually sold it and went into Private Equity. I have sat through a bunch of Charter School proposals and have toured many. Skim students off the top and then return the bad apples back to public schools while leaving the Public Schools with all the costs associated with its fixed plant. It’s crippling to public schools….. You don’t see this in Victor, Skaneateles, Garden City, Mountain Lakes, Darien, New Canaan, Bethesda, Potomac, Alexandria, McLean or Bala Cynwd public schools.
“I wish you would!”
PizzaSnake
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Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by PizzaSnake »

OCanada wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 1:04 pm Reagan got debasing our currency off to a big start. Trump was the latest to give it a big push.

A little long but perspective

https://www.theglobalist.com/united-sta ... -election/
1980 was the beginning of the blight that is the Heritage Foundation's policy "papers and plans," of which 2025 is the latest.

https://www.heritage.org/conservatism/c ... artnership
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
OCanada
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Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by OCanada »

The GOP wants to make itself the permanent ruling party in the country. It has been a goal going back to the late 1960s. Heritage was not the only NFP established to help achieve that end. There were several purposes: generate ideas and policy papers; help recruit college conservatives by providing a career path etc
PizzaSnake
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Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:36 pm

Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by PizzaSnake »

OCanada wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 4:17 pm The GOP wants to make itself the permanent ruling party in the country. It has been a goal going back to the late 1960s. Heritage was not the only NFP established to help achieve that end. There were several purposes: generate ideas and policy papers; help recruit college conservatives by providing a career path etc

Yeah, the Great Society was the final straw, no?
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
OCanada
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Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by OCanada »

PizzaSnake wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 4:19 pm
OCanada wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 4:17 pm The GOP wants to make itself the permanent ruling party in the country. It has been a goal going back to the late 1960s. Heritage was not the only NFP established to help achieve that end. There were several purposes: generate ideas and policy papers; help recruit college conservatives by providing a career path etc

Yeah, the Great Society was the final straw, no?
That and the crushing defeat of AuH2O
User avatar
Brooklyn
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Location: St Paul, Minnesota

Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by Brooklyn »

Red states ~ biggest welfare queens in USA:


Republican Voters Survive More On Government Handouts: Study

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... 5bb73&ei=4


It has long been a thorn in Democratic strategists’ sides that many Republican voters, especially those in rural areas, allegedly “vote against their own interests” in many elections.

That is, these voters favor GOP candidates whose policies work against them financially — politicians whose tax cuts for the rich and belief in trickle-down economics are presumed to hurt the middle-to-lower income strata more than Democratic Party policies do.

The GOP makes its case to these voters with a number of arguments, but the element that underscores the Party’s main appeal is a promise to pare back an “intrusive” federal government which it portrays as stripping individuals of autonomy and independence, and redistributing wealth from “hard-working” Americans to those on the dole — i.e., users of government-provided services and aid.

A new study from the Economic Innovation Group (“a bipartisan public policy organization dedicated to forging a more dynamic and inclusive American economy”) reveals how increasingly — and exactly where — “American communities became reliant on aid from the government.”

That sentence — “Americans reliant on government” — encapsulates the chief complaint the GOP has used to win votes. It appears, on the surface, to support the unrelenting Republican charge of a surreptitious “socialism” undergirding the American capitalist system. And the charge of income redistribution is indisputably in evidence in the study– mostly in the form of the largely popular programs like Social Security, SNAP, Medicare and Medicaid.


But the thorn hurts Democrats because of a widespread misinterpretation about how that redistribution is working. Blue states and blue counties — those which tend to vote Democratic — pay far more into the pot than Republican-voting red states and red counties, which — the study shows — are the most common recipients of the blue counties’ largesse.

[The study explains that Americans derive income from three main sources: “work, investments, and transfers. Transfer income comes from government programs, such as Social Security, Medicare, and veterans benefits.”]

https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/18405899 ... name=small
https://x.com/WSJ/status/1841040456236314961

To the Dems’ consternation, GOP voters voting to strip these programs and get “intrusive” government to stop giving handouts to the “undeserving” are themselves the recipients of the majority of these “handouts.”

[As the Wall Street Journal affirms: “That support is especially critical in economically stressed communities throughout the U.S., many of which lean Republican and are concentrated in swing states crucial in deciding the presidential election.”]

The study shows that residents in more than 50 percent of America’s counties are now being supplied with more than 25 percent of their income from the government. The percentage marks a dramatic increase, with the percentage of counties drawing 25% of their income from government sources being just 10 percent as recently as 2000.



Blame Biden! :lol:
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
LaxDog
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:19 pm

Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by LaxDog »

a fan wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 12:16 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2024 11:12 am
Kismet wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 9:42 am https://www.propublica.org/article/ariz ... t-meltdown

"School Vouchers Were Supposed to Save Taxpayer Money. Instead They Blew a Massive Hole in Arizona’s Budget.
In 2022, Arizona pioneered the largest school voucher program in the history of education. Under a new law, any parent in the state, no matter how affluent, could get a taxpayer-funded voucher worth up to tens of thousands of dollars to spend on private school tuition, extracurricular programs or homeschooling supplies.

In just the past two years, nearly a dozen states have enacted sweeping voucher programs similar to Arizona’s Empowerment Scholarship Account system, with many using it as a model.

Yet in a lesson for these other states, Arizona’s voucher experiment has since precipitated a budget meltdown. The state this year faced a $1.4 billion budget shortfall, much of which was a result of the new voucher spending, according to the Grand Canyon Institute, a local nonpartisan fiscal and economic policy think tank. Last fiscal year alone, the price tag of universal vouchers in Arizona skyrocketed from an original official estimate of just under $65 million to roughly $332 million, the Grand Canyon analysis found; another $429 million in costs is expected this year.

As a result of all this unexpected spending, alongside some recent revenue losses, Arizona is now having to make deep cuts to a wide swath of critical state programs and projects, the pain of which will be felt by average Arizonans who may or may not have school-aged children.

Among the funding slashed: $333 million for water infrastructure projects, in a state where water scarcity will shape the future, and tens of millions of dollars for highway expansions and repairs in congested areas of one of the nation’s fastest-growing metropolises — Phoenix and its suburbs. Also nixed were improvements to the air conditioning in state prisons, where temperatures can soar above 100 degrees. Arizona’s community colleges, too, are seeing their budgets cut by $54 million."
Let them drink water…
Wait....so adding in a layer of profit, and cutting the size of schools from one school with 1,000 kids per school to 10 schools with 100 kids per school isn't more financially efficient?

Nooooooooo. Really?
I know, right? Completely irresponsible use of taxpayer money.
Can we somehow figure out how to give that state money to Ukraine too?
User avatar
cradleandshoot
Posts: 15542
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by cradleandshoot »

LaxDog wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2024 6:53 am
a fan wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 12:16 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2024 11:12 am
Kismet wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 9:42 am https://www.propublica.org/article/ariz ... t-meltdown

"School Vouchers Were Supposed to Save Taxpayer Money. Instead They Blew a Massive Hole in Arizona’s Budget.
In 2022, Arizona pioneered the largest school voucher program in the history of education. Under a new law, any parent in the state, no matter how affluent, could get a taxpayer-funded voucher worth up to tens of thousands of dollars to spend on private school tuition, extracurricular programs or homeschooling supplies.

In just the past two years, nearly a dozen states have enacted sweeping voucher programs similar to Arizona’s Empowerment Scholarship Account system, with many using it as a model.

Yet in a lesson for these other states, Arizona’s voucher experiment has since precipitated a budget meltdown. The state this year faced a $1.4 billion budget shortfall, much of which was a result of the new voucher spending, according to the Grand Canyon Institute, a local nonpartisan fiscal and economic policy think tank. Last fiscal year alone, the price tag of universal vouchers in Arizona skyrocketed from an original official estimate of just under $65 million to roughly $332 million, the Grand Canyon analysis found; another $429 million in costs is expected this year.

As a result of all this unexpected spending, alongside some recent revenue losses, Arizona is now having to make deep cuts to a wide swath of critical state programs and projects, the pain of which will be felt by average Arizonans who may or may not have school-aged children.

Among the funding slashed: $333 million for water infrastructure projects, in a state where water scarcity will shape the future, and tens of millions of dollars for highway expansions and repairs in congested areas of one of the nation’s fastest-growing metropolises — Phoenix and its suburbs. Also nixed were improvements to the air conditioning in state prisons, where temperatures can soar above 100 degrees. Arizona’s community colleges, too, are seeing their budgets cut by $54 million."
Let them drink water…
Wait....so adding in a layer of profit, and cutting the size of schools from one school with 1,000 kids per school to 10 schools with 100 kids per school isn't more financially efficient?

Nooooooooo. Really?
I know, right? Completely irresponsible use of taxpayer money.
Can we somehow figure out how to give that state money to Ukraine too?
Every time I hear any FLP liberal opining about we need to invest more I cringe and hold on to my wallet. Okay if we need to " invest " more where do we cut spending to make these " investments " ? Should there be an expectation of RoI for the investments being requested. My instincts tell me all this investing will be more money borrowed and more debt to the American people. What the hell, uncontrollable spending is as American as baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and Chevrolet... Our nations debt is increasing 1 trillion dollars every 100 days and nobody cares. What ever happened to the philosophy of fiscal conservatives? COVID must have wiped them all out?? :roll:
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
Seacoaster(1)
Posts: 5342
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:49 am

Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... te/680121/

"The “fire in a crowded theater” case involved neither a fire, nor a theater, nor a crowd, and resulted in one of the worst Supreme Court decisions ever reached. But the phrase fire in a crowded theater was repeated by both vice-presidential candidates during their debate on Tuesday, demonstrating an ongoing misunderstanding of free speech.

Toward the end of the debate, the Democratic vice-presidential nominee, Tim Walz, pointed out that former President Donald Trump tried to overturn—first by fraud and later by force—the 2020 presidential election, which he lost. J. D. Vance, the Republican who was selected to replace former Vice President Mike Pence on the ticket precisely because he is the sort of quisling lapdog who would participate in such a scheme, retorted that Walz supported “Facebook censorship.”

“You can’t yell ‘fire’ in a crowded theater. That’s the test. That’s the Supreme Court test,” Walz said.

“Tim. Fire in a crowded theater? You guys wanted to kick people off of Facebook for saying that toddlers should not wear masks,” Vance replied.

The equivalence that Vance draws between social-media moderation and Trump trying to stage a coup is ridiculous, but revealing in terms of how conservatives have come to conceive of free speech: They believe that right-wing speech should be sacrosanct, and liberal speech officially disfavored. Walz is simply wrong about the Supreme Court standard for what kind of speech can be outlawed, but the invocation of that archaic test does illustrate how safety can become an excuse for state censorship. It just so happens that social-media moderation is not state censorship, because social media is not the government.

In 1919, the Supreme Court upheld the convictions of socialist anti-war protesters under the Espionage Act in Schenk v. United States. The accused, Charles Schenk and Elizabeth Baer, had been passing out flyers urging people to resist the draft during World War I. The Court ruled unanimously in an opinion written by Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. that the convictions were constitutional, with Holmes writing, “The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic. It does not even protect a man from an injunction against uttering words that may have all the effect of force.” (The next time someone tries to tell you that “words are violence” is something left-wing college students came up with, remind them that the U.S. Supreme Court said it first.)

The cultural context here is as important as the legal one. As the legal scholar Geoffrey Stone writes in Perilous Times, the country was in the throes of the first Red Scare, and the Supreme Court was “firmly in conservative hands. The values and experiences of the justices led most of them to hold anarchists, socialists, and other ‘radical’ dissenters in contempt.” As Stone notes, Schenk and Baer’s pamphlets urged political support for repeal of the draft, not even unlawful obstruction of it. The justices, however, did not consider the political beliefs of those they were judging to have value, and therefore they had no problem seeing people thrown in jail for those beliefs, no matter what the First Amendment said. After all, it was wartime.

So there was no fire, no crowd, and no theater. What actually happened was that some people had unpopular political beliefs and the government wanted to throw them in jail, and the Supreme Court said that was fine. That also happens to be the kind of thing that Trump wants to do as president, the kind of thing that the arch-conservative Supreme Court has decided he should have immunity for doing.

The Schenk standard, however, was repealed in Brandenburg v. Ohio in 1969, a case involving Clarence Brandenburg, a Ku Klux Klan leader who was convicted under a state law that prohibited advocating political change through terrorism. The Supreme Court—then a liberal court, something that had not existed before and has not since—overturned his conviction, ruling that that government can only bar speech advocating “imminent lawless action” that is “likely to incite or produce such action.” Stone writes that the Court was trying to tie its own hands to prevent the government from acting under the spell of “fear and hysteria” that can be brought on by wartime. It’s a much better standard than the kind that gets you imprisoned for handing out pamphlets. (Vance, a Yale Law graduate, is probably aware that Trump’s speech working up a mob that went on to ransack the Capitol and try to hang Pence could meet that much higher standard, known as the “Brandenburg test.”)

But the fact that the government can put you in prison points to how matters of free speech are different for social-media companies. Social-media companies can’t put you in prison, because they are not the government. They can ban users for not adhering to their standards, but this in itself is a form of speech: Just as the right-wing website Breitbart does not have to publish my writing, social-media companies do not have to publish the content of users who violate their rules. Social-media moderation is not state censorship, and it should not be treated as such. Conservatives understand this when the moderation decisions land in their favor, which is why the union-busting billionaire Elon Musk’s favoritism toward conservative speech and attempts to silence his critics on the social-media platform X have not drawn the attention of the Republican majority in Congress. Nor should they—he owns the place; he can do what he wants with it. The point is that conservatives fully get the distinction when they want to.

Vance’s implicit position is that conservatives have a state-enforced right to the use of private platforms; that the state can and should force private companies to publish speech that those companies disagree with, as long as that speech is right-wing. Such a policy really would be a form of censorship.

Immediately after Trump’s disastrous September debate, conservatives, including Trump himself, began calling for ABC News to lose its broadcast license for fact-checking Trump’s lies about Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio. These threats of state retaliation against media outlets—or anyone who speaks out against Trump—illustrate that what conservatives mean when they talk about free speech is a legal right to use private platforms as venues for right-wing propaganda, whether or not those platforms wish to be used that way. That is a form of censorship far more authoritarian than private social-media platforms deciding they don’t want to carry rants about COVID shots putting microchips in your blood that can receive signals from alien invaders.

As for Walz, he foolishly cited an archaic standard that the Supreme Court has thankfully abandoned, one that in actuality shows how dangerous it can be for the government to pick and choose which speech is acceptable. Walz has previously asserted that “misinformation” and “hate speech” are not protected, a mistaken belief that is unfortunately popular among some on the left. The flawed standard he cited last night explains why such speech is and should be protected—because the window for state power to police what individual people say should be as small as reasonably possible.

His opponents Trump and Vance, however, do not think that such an approach is dangerous at all. A government that chooses which speech to punish and which to promote is their ideal situation, provided that they are the ones in charge."
User avatar
cradleandshoot
Posts: 15542
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Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by cradleandshoot »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2024 7:15 am https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... te/680121/

"The “fire in a crowded theater” case involved neither a fire, nor a theater, nor a crowd, and resulted in one of the worst Supreme Court decisions ever reached. But the phrase fire in a crowded theater was repeated by both vice-presidential candidates during their debate on Tuesday, demonstrating an ongoing misunderstanding of free speech.

Toward the end of the debate, the Democratic vice-presidential nominee, Tim Walz, pointed out that former President Donald Trump tried to overturn—first by fraud and later by force—the 2020 presidential election, which he lost. J. D. Vance, the Republican who was selected to replace former Vice President Mike Pence on the ticket precisely because he is the sort of quisling lapdog who would participate in such a scheme, retorted that Walz supported “Facebook censorship.”

“You can’t yell ‘fire’ in a crowded theater. That’s the test. That’s the Supreme Court test,” Walz said.

“Tim. Fire in a crowded theater? You guys wanted to kick people off of Facebook for saying that toddlers should not wear masks,” Vance replied.

The equivalence that Vance draws between social-media moderation and Trump trying to stage a coup is ridiculous, but revealing in terms of how conservatives have come to conceive of free speech: They believe that right-wing speech should be sacrosanct, and liberal speech officially disfavored. Walz is simply wrong about the Supreme Court standard for what kind of speech can be outlawed, but the invocation of that archaic test does illustrate how safety can become an excuse for state censorship. It just so happens that social-media moderation is not state censorship, because social media is not the government.

In 1919, the Supreme Court upheld the convictions of socialist anti-war protesters under the Espionage Act in Schenk v. United States. The accused, Charles Schenk and Elizabeth Baer, had been passing out flyers urging people to resist the draft during World War I. The Court ruled unanimously in an opinion written by Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. that the convictions were constitutional, with Holmes writing, “The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic. It does not even protect a man from an injunction against uttering words that may have all the effect of force.” (The next time someone tries to tell you that “words are violence” is something left-wing college students came up with, remind them that the U.S. Supreme Court said it first.)

The cultural context here is as important as the legal one. As the legal scholar Geoffrey Stone writes in Perilous Times, the country was in the throes of the first Red Scare, and the Supreme Court was “firmly in conservative hands. The values and experiences of the justices led most of them to hold anarchists, socialists, and other ‘radical’ dissenters in contempt.” As Stone notes, Schenk and Baer’s pamphlets urged political support for repeal of the draft, not even unlawful obstruction of it. The justices, however, did not consider the political beliefs of those they were judging to have value, and therefore they had no problem seeing people thrown in jail for those beliefs, no matter what the First Amendment said. After all, it was wartime.

So there was no fire, no crowd, and no theater. What actually happened was that some people had unpopular political beliefs and the government wanted to throw them in jail, and the Supreme Court said that was fine. That also happens to be the kind of thing that Trump wants to do as president, the kind of thing that the arch-conservative Supreme Court has decided he should have immunity for doing.

The Schenk standard, however, was repealed in Brandenburg v. Ohio in 1969, a case involving Clarence Brandenburg, a Ku Klux Klan leader who was convicted under a state law that prohibited advocating political change through terrorism. The Supreme Court—then a liberal court, something that had not existed before and has not since—overturned his conviction, ruling that that government can only bar speech advocating “imminent lawless action” that is “likely to incite or produce such action.” Stone writes that the Court was trying to tie its own hands to prevent the government from acting under the spell of “fear and hysteria” that can be brought on by wartime. It’s a much better standard than the kind that gets you imprisoned for handing out pamphlets. (Vance, a Yale Law graduate, is probably aware that Trump’s speech working up a mob that went on to ransack the Capitol and try to hang Pence could meet that much higher standard, known as the “Brandenburg test.”)

But the fact that the government can put you in prison points to how matters of free speech are different for social-media companies. Social-media companies can’t put you in prison, because they are not the government. They can ban users for not adhering to their standards, but this in itself is a form of speech: Just as the right-wing website Breitbart does not have to publish my writing, social-media companies do not have to publish the content of users who violate their rules. Social-media moderation is not state censorship, and it should not be treated as such. Conservatives understand this when the moderation decisions land in their favor, which is why the union-busting billionaire Elon Musk’s favoritism toward conservative speech and attempts to silence his critics on the social-media platform X have not drawn the attention of the Republican majority in Congress. Nor should they—he owns the place; he can do what he wants with it. The point is that conservatives fully get the distinction when they want to.

Vance’s implicit position is that conservatives have a state-enforced right to the use of private platforms; that the state can and should force private companies to publish speech that those companies disagree with, as long as that speech is right-wing. Such a policy really would be a form of censorship.

Immediately after Trump’s disastrous September debate, conservatives, including Trump himself, began calling for ABC News to lose its broadcast license for fact-checking Trump’s lies about Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio. These threats of state retaliation against media outlets—or anyone who speaks out against Trump—illustrate that what conservatives mean when they talk about free speech is a legal right to use private platforms as venues for right-wing propaganda, whether or not those platforms wish to be used that way. That is a form of censorship far more authoritarian than private social-media platforms deciding they don’t want to carry rants about COVID shots putting microchips in your blood that can receive signals from alien invaders.

As for Walz, he foolishly cited an archaic standard that the Supreme Court has thankfully abandoned, one that in actuality shows how dangerous it can be for the government to pick and choose which speech is acceptable. Walz has previously asserted that “misinformation” and “hate speech” are not protected, a mistaken belief that is unfortunately popular among some on the left. The flawed standard he cited last night explains why such speech is and should be protected—because the window for state power to police what individual people say should be as small as reasonably possible.

His opponents Trump and Vance, however, do not think that such an approach is dangerous at all. A government that chooses which speech to punish and which to promote is their ideal situation, provided that they are the ones in charge."
If what happened at the Capitol on January 6 was supposed to be a coup it will will go down in history as the most pathetic attempt at a coup that the world has ever known. The only thing I saw was an out of control mob that crashed the Capital building and acted like a bunch of hoodlums and vandals. You should thank your lucky stars there wasn't an organized plan. They stood as good a chance of overturning the election than you or I have at becoming an astronaut. It was a national embarrassment no doubt. It wasn't a coup, there wasn't enough brain power in that mob to pull that off. You of all people should understand that. You share with us everyday how stupid these FRC folks are. They are not exactly the kind of folks with the smarts to pull anything off short of a parade.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
User avatar
Kismet
Posts: 5123
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:42 pm

Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by Kismet »

cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2024 7:31 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2024 7:15 am https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... te/680121/

"The “fire in a crowded theater” case involved neither a fire, nor a theater, nor a crowd, and resulted in one of the worst Supreme Court decisions ever reached. But the phrase fire in a crowded theater was repeated by both vice-presidential candidates during their debate on Tuesday, demonstrating an ongoing misunderstanding of free speech.

Toward the end of the debate, the Democratic vice-presidential nominee, Tim Walz, pointed out that former President Donald Trump tried to overturn—first by fraud and later by force—the 2020 presidential election, which he lost. J. D. Vance, the Republican who was selected to replace former Vice President Mike Pence on the ticket precisely because he is the sort of quisling lapdog who would participate in such a scheme, retorted that Walz supported “Facebook censorship.”

“You can’t yell ‘fire’ in a crowded theater. That’s the test. That’s the Supreme Court test,” Walz said.

“Tim. Fire in a crowded theater? You guys wanted to kick people off of Facebook for saying that toddlers should not wear masks,” Vance replied.

The equivalence that Vance draws between social-media moderation and Trump trying to stage a coup is ridiculous, but revealing in terms of how conservatives have come to conceive of free speech: They believe that right-wing speech should be sacrosanct, and liberal speech officially disfavored. Walz is simply wrong about the Supreme Court standard for what kind of speech can be outlawed, but the invocation of that archaic test does illustrate how safety can become an excuse for state censorship. It just so happens that social-media moderation is not state censorship, because social media is not the government.

In 1919, the Supreme Court upheld the convictions of socialist anti-war protesters under the Espionage Act in Schenk v. United States. The accused, Charles Schenk and Elizabeth Baer, had been passing out flyers urging people to resist the draft during World War I. The Court ruled unanimously in an opinion written by Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. that the convictions were constitutional, with Holmes writing, “The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic. It does not even protect a man from an injunction against uttering words that may have all the effect of force.” (The next time someone tries to tell you that “words are violence” is something left-wing college students came up with, remind them that the U.S. Supreme Court said it first.)

The cultural context here is as important as the legal one. As the legal scholar Geoffrey Stone writes in Perilous Times, the country was in the throes of the first Red Scare, and the Supreme Court was “firmly in conservative hands. The values and experiences of the justices led most of them to hold anarchists, socialists, and other ‘radical’ dissenters in contempt.” As Stone notes, Schenk and Baer’s pamphlets urged political support for repeal of the draft, not even unlawful obstruction of it. The justices, however, did not consider the political beliefs of those they were judging to have value, and therefore they had no problem seeing people thrown in jail for those beliefs, no matter what the First Amendment said. After all, it was wartime.

So there was no fire, no crowd, and no theater. What actually happened was that some people had unpopular political beliefs and the government wanted to throw them in jail, and the Supreme Court said that was fine. That also happens to be the kind of thing that Trump wants to do as president, the kind of thing that the arch-conservative Supreme Court has decided he should have immunity for doing.

The Schenk standard, however, was repealed in Brandenburg v. Ohio in 1969, a case involving Clarence Brandenburg, a Ku Klux Klan leader who was convicted under a state law that prohibited advocating political change through terrorism. The Supreme Court—then a liberal court, something that had not existed before and has not since—overturned his conviction, ruling that that government can only bar speech advocating “imminent lawless action” that is “likely to incite or produce such action.” Stone writes that the Court was trying to tie its own hands to prevent the government from acting under the spell of “fear and hysteria” that can be brought on by wartime. It’s a much better standard than the kind that gets you imprisoned for handing out pamphlets. (Vance, a Yale Law graduate, is probably aware that Trump’s speech working up a mob that went on to ransack the Capitol and try to hang Pence could meet that much higher standard, known as the “Brandenburg test.”)

But the fact that the government can put you in prison points to how matters of free speech are different for social-media companies. Social-media companies can’t put you in prison, because they are not the government. They can ban users for not adhering to their standards, but this in itself is a form of speech: Just as the right-wing website Breitbart does not have to publish my writing, social-media companies do not have to publish the content of users who violate their rules. Social-media moderation is not state censorship, and it should not be treated as such. Conservatives understand this when the moderation decisions land in their favor, which is why the union-busting billionaire Elon Musk’s favoritism toward conservative speech and attempts to silence his critics on the social-media platform X have not drawn the attention of the Republican majority in Congress. Nor should they—he owns the place; he can do what he wants with it. The point is that conservatives fully get the distinction when they want to.

Vance’s implicit position is that conservatives have a state-enforced right to the use of private platforms; that the state can and should force private companies to publish speech that those companies disagree with, as long as that speech is right-wing. Such a policy really would be a form of censorship.

Immediately after Trump’s disastrous September debate, conservatives, including Trump himself, began calling for ABC News to lose its broadcast license for fact-checking Trump’s lies about Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio. These threats of state retaliation against media outlets—or anyone who speaks out against Trump—illustrate that what conservatives mean when they talk about free speech is a legal right to use private platforms as venues for right-wing propaganda, whether or not those platforms wish to be used that way. That is a form of censorship far more authoritarian than private social-media platforms deciding they don’t want to carry rants about COVID shots putting microchips in your blood that can receive signals from alien invaders.

As for Walz, he foolishly cited an archaic standard that the Supreme Court has thankfully abandoned, one that in actuality shows how dangerous it can be for the government to pick and choose which speech is acceptable. Walz has previously asserted that “misinformation” and “hate speech” are not protected, a mistaken belief that is unfortunately popular among some on the left. The flawed standard he cited last night explains why such speech is and should be protected—because the window for state power to police what individual people say should be as small as reasonably possible.

His opponents Trump and Vance, however, do not think that such an approach is dangerous at all. A government that chooses which speech to punish and which to promote is their ideal situation, provided that they are the ones in charge."
If what happened at the Capitol on January 6 was supposed to be a coup it will will go down in history as the most pathetic attempt at a coup that the world has ever known. The only thing I saw was an out of control mob that crashed the Capital building and acted like a bunch of hoodlums and vandals. You should thank your lucky stars there wasn't an organized plan. They stood as good a chance of overturning the election than you or I have at becoming an astronaut. It was a national embarrassment no doubt. It wasn't a coup, there wasn't enough brain power in that mob to pull that off. You of all people should understand that. You share with us everyday how stupid these FRC folks are. They are not exactly the kind of folks with the smarts to pull anything off short of a parade.
It could also be true that the plan was to somehow interrupt the certification but that the dumb as a rock rioters couldn't execute the plan to a conclusion. Orange Fatso and his pals will never be confused with Albert Einstein or Niccolò Machiavelli. :lol: :oops:
Seacoaster(1)
Posts: 5342
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:49 am

Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2024 7:31 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2024 7:15 am https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... te/680121/

"The “fire in a crowded theater” case involved neither a fire, nor a theater, nor a crowd, and resulted in one of the worst Supreme Court decisions ever reached. But the phrase fire in a crowded theater was repeated by both vice-presidential candidates during their debate on Tuesday, demonstrating an ongoing misunderstanding of free speech.

Toward the end of the debate, the Democratic vice-presidential nominee, Tim Walz, pointed out that former President Donald Trump tried to overturn—first by fraud and later by force—the 2020 presidential election, which he lost. J. D. Vance, the Republican who was selected to replace former Vice President Mike Pence on the ticket precisely because he is the sort of quisling lapdog who would participate in such a scheme, retorted that Walz supported “Facebook censorship.”

“You can’t yell ‘fire’ in a crowded theater. That’s the test. That’s the Supreme Court test,” Walz said.

“Tim. Fire in a crowded theater? You guys wanted to kick people off of Facebook for saying that toddlers should not wear masks,” Vance replied.

The equivalence that Vance draws between social-media moderation and Trump trying to stage a coup is ridiculous, but revealing in terms of how conservatives have come to conceive of free speech: They believe that right-wing speech should be sacrosanct, and liberal speech officially disfavored. Walz is simply wrong about the Supreme Court standard for what kind of speech can be outlawed, but the invocation of that archaic test does illustrate how safety can become an excuse for state censorship. It just so happens that social-media moderation is not state censorship, because social media is not the government.

In 1919, the Supreme Court upheld the convictions of socialist anti-war protesters under the Espionage Act in Schenk v. United States. The accused, Charles Schenk and Elizabeth Baer, had been passing out flyers urging people to resist the draft during World War I. The Court ruled unanimously in an opinion written by Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. that the convictions were constitutional, with Holmes writing, “The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic. It does not even protect a man from an injunction against uttering words that may have all the effect of force.” (The next time someone tries to tell you that “words are violence” is something left-wing college students came up with, remind them that the U.S. Supreme Court said it first.)

The cultural context here is as important as the legal one. As the legal scholar Geoffrey Stone writes in Perilous Times, the country was in the throes of the first Red Scare, and the Supreme Court was “firmly in conservative hands. The values and experiences of the justices led most of them to hold anarchists, socialists, and other ‘radical’ dissenters in contempt.” As Stone notes, Schenk and Baer’s pamphlets urged political support for repeal of the draft, not even unlawful obstruction of it. The justices, however, did not consider the political beliefs of those they were judging to have value, and therefore they had no problem seeing people thrown in jail for those beliefs, no matter what the First Amendment said. After all, it was wartime.

So there was no fire, no crowd, and no theater. What actually happened was that some people had unpopular political beliefs and the government wanted to throw them in jail, and the Supreme Court said that was fine. That also happens to be the kind of thing that Trump wants to do as president, the kind of thing that the arch-conservative Supreme Court has decided he should have immunity for doing.

The Schenk standard, however, was repealed in Brandenburg v. Ohio in 1969, a case involving Clarence Brandenburg, a Ku Klux Klan leader who was convicted under a state law that prohibited advocating political change through terrorism. The Supreme Court—then a liberal court, something that had not existed before and has not since—overturned his conviction, ruling that that government can only bar speech advocating “imminent lawless action” that is “likely to incite or produce such action.” Stone writes that the Court was trying to tie its own hands to prevent the government from acting under the spell of “fear and hysteria” that can be brought on by wartime. It’s a much better standard than the kind that gets you imprisoned for handing out pamphlets. (Vance, a Yale Law graduate, is probably aware that Trump’s speech working up a mob that went on to ransack the Capitol and try to hang Pence could meet that much higher standard, known as the “Brandenburg test.”)

But the fact that the government can put you in prison points to how matters of free speech are different for social-media companies. Social-media companies can’t put you in prison, because they are not the government. They can ban users for not adhering to their standards, but this in itself is a form of speech: Just as the right-wing website Breitbart does not have to publish my writing, social-media companies do not have to publish the content of users who violate their rules. Social-media moderation is not state censorship, and it should not be treated as such. Conservatives understand this when the moderation decisions land in their favor, which is why the union-busting billionaire Elon Musk’s favoritism toward conservative speech and attempts to silence his critics on the social-media platform X have not drawn the attention of the Republican majority in Congress. Nor should they—he owns the place; he can do what he wants with it. The point is that conservatives fully get the distinction when they want to.

Vance’s implicit position is that conservatives have a state-enforced right to the use of private platforms; that the state can and should force private companies to publish speech that those companies disagree with, as long as that speech is right-wing. Such a policy really would be a form of censorship.

Immediately after Trump’s disastrous September debate, conservatives, including Trump himself, began calling for ABC News to lose its broadcast license for fact-checking Trump’s lies about Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio. These threats of state retaliation against media outlets—or anyone who speaks out against Trump—illustrate that what conservatives mean when they talk about free speech is a legal right to use private platforms as venues for right-wing propaganda, whether or not those platforms wish to be used that way. That is a form of censorship far more authoritarian than private social-media platforms deciding they don’t want to carry rants about COVID shots putting microchips in your blood that can receive signals from alien invaders.

As for Walz, he foolishly cited an archaic standard that the Supreme Court has thankfully abandoned, one that in actuality shows how dangerous it can be for the government to pick and choose which speech is acceptable. Walz has previously asserted that “misinformation” and “hate speech” are not protected, a mistaken belief that is unfortunately popular among some on the left. The flawed standard he cited last night explains why such speech is and should be protected—because the window for state power to police what individual people say should be as small as reasonably possible.

His opponents Trump and Vance, however, do not think that such an approach is dangerous at all. A government that chooses which speech to punish and which to promote is their ideal situation, provided that they are the ones in charge."
If what happened at the Capitol on January 6 was supposed to be a coup it will will go down in history as the most pathetic attempt at a coup that the world has ever known. The only thing I saw was an out of control mob that crashed the Capital building and acted like a bunch of hoodlums and vandals. You should thank your lucky stars there wasn't an organized plan. They stood as good a chance of overturning the election than you or I have at becoming an astronaut. It was a national embarrassment no doubt. It wasn't a coup, there wasn't enough brain power in that mob to pull that off. You of all people should understand that. You share with us everyday how stupid these FRC folks are. They are not exactly the kind of folks with the smarts to pull anything off short of a parade.
You appear to have missed the point, and the manner in which the coup was intended to be executed. The J6 mob, motley and disorganized as it was, was a part of the plan. Draft fake electors; create fake electoral votes; give them a false state "certification;" impede Congress from doing its job; create chaos; stay in office.
User avatar
Kismet
Posts: 5123
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:42 pm

Re: Conservative Ideology 2024: NOTHING BUT LIES AND FEARMONGERING

Post by Kismet »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2024 8:26 am You appear to have missed the point, and the manner in which the coup was intended to be executed. The J6 mob, motley and disorganized as it was, was a part of the plan. Draft fake electors; create fake electoral votes; give them a false state "certification;" impede Congress from doing its job; create chaos; stay in office.
Yup and actually the stupidity and easily manipulated rioters fit right into that plan. Clear as day.
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