Under Armour All-Americans

[DALaxDad]

smoova, I think you might be conflating two issues. PG's exist for a variety of reasons, some academic, some maturity, some socialization, some athletic, though most of the ones I have seen were taking a PG year for one of the first three reasons - they'd already established their athletic chops elsewhere and they wanted to improve their ability to get into school. That is a big difference from the kid whose parents tell their club team about Johnny's plans to PG so Johnny can play down. That is dumb. The best way to get better is to play against the best you can, not to play down.

[thetruth]

Thanks for posting. All this time, I'd failed to recognize that 16 year-olds playing against 14 year-olds is really just the older kids "working hard to prevail." Learn something every day!

I'm talking about PGs not 14 year olds and 16 year olds.
But life ain't fair even when you're 14.

A veritable fount of wisdom! Always entertaining to see how folks rationalize their efforts to arrange "suitable" competition.

Smoova, you've got a problem with kids committing to PG when they are young which I get and that's not what I'm defending. I'm defending taking a post grad year under normal circumstance. Someone committing to PG prior to either being a committed athlete or senior year of HS doesn't make any sense. Those kids aren't PGs they are "reclasses". And if you're going to "reclass" then you should be required to actually change class.
So I think the freshman in HS committing to PG is ridiculous and definitely a way to game the system because it allows the kid to be considered as a recruit for 2 classes.

[smoova]

We're generally in agreement. I understand the benefit and propriety of the PG year for many students - e.g. my prior-service classmates at USMA. What I do not like is how it's become a way for the well-heeled to buy their academically deficient kids a second bite at the admissions apple, but that's one of many minor disappointments I'll just have to live with.

[youthathletics]

I regard to the discussion of holding kids back..Read chapter 1 of Malcom Gladwell's book Outliers. He discusses the benefits of being older than your peers in athletics by analyzing the Canadian junior hockey league and European soccer. Relates well to this discussion.

But this is JUST lacrosse...an essentially dead end sport post college. And if you want to make a living in the sport, you better run a club program or coach, or have a wealthy family, along with some other means of income.

Hockey, Hoops, Football, Soccer, Baseball....sure, I get it, there is much more upside by working the system.

[cornfed]

I regard to the discussion of holding kids back..Read chapter 1 of Malcom Gladwell's book Outliers. He discusses the benefits of being older than your peers in athletics by analyzing the Canadian junior hockey league and European soccer. Relates well to this discussion.

But this is JUST lacrosse...an essentially dead end sport post college. And if you want to make a living in the sport, you better run a club program or coach, or have a wealthy family, along with some other means of income.

Hockey, Hoops, Football, Soccer, Baseball....sure, I get it, there is much more upside by working the system.

This is ACADEMICS as well. Yes, lacrosse is a dead end sports post-college but taking a PG year could be the difference in acceptance to an IVY league type school.

[renault]

I regard to the discussion of holding kids back..Read chapter 1 of Malcom Gladwell's book Outliers. He discusses the benefits of being older than your peers in athletics by analyzing the Canadian junior hockey league and European soccer. Relates well to this discussion.

But this is JUST lacrosse...an essentially dead end sport post college. And if you want to make a living in the sport, you better run a club program or coach, or have a wealthy family, along with some other means of income.

Hockey, Hoops, Football, Soccer, Baseball....sure, I get it, there is much more upside by working the system.

But you don't seem to get it. There is no real upside to working the system in those other sports. For these other "real" sports, the endgame is a professional career. You're going to prove yourself one way or the other.

For lacrosse, the endgame is simply admission to a good school. There is a HUGE upside to working the system since the goal is to have your kid peak during his sophomore/junior years of high school. Being a year or two older at that time can certainly help with that.

[Fanlax999]

Fanlax999, not sure why all the hate, my son PG'd with a few others, yes they turned 20 freshman year but landed at Brown(2), G'town, ND, Harvard, NC. In my opinion, no great rush to work 40+ yrs. Alot of other non athletes are entering late as well with Gap years, taking 5 years to complete college.etc. So age differences is not a big deal when the enter the working world.

Not "hate" but not sure the trend is healthy.

1. Hate to broad brush "all" private schools but each one that recruited my son started off their pitch with dropping him back a year. It was presented like it was assumed. Son does not need to drop back for any academic reason.
2. Service academy's send their lax players (and football, and soccer, etc.) to either their prep school or a year PG (usually with Foundation funding assistance) as a matter of course and have lost some top 100 recruits just for this reason under last coach. This is their way of getting a red shirt year.
3. The growth of PG schools dedicated just for athletes is growing. PG for academics is a very good reason in my opinion. Not convinced otherwise.
4. 5 years to graduate from college in my experience (3 kids through college) is a major switching issue. Starting college at 20+ in no way solves this issue. So if all things are equal, starting college at 20 + 5 years = 25 y.o. for the undergrad. At this age you are starting to push up against health care issues. Full time student or not, depending on your status, at as early as 24 you might have to pay a supplemental to keep them on your policy. I know this first hand.
5. At 25, first time job applicants are competing against post grad (MS/MBA/MA) applicants.
6. Bottom line: Lax is expensive enough. If you are reading this blog you know what I mean. Now add one or two more of the most expensive years on at the end? Seriously? Lax is not life. This trend is wrong.

bingo, this man gets it. but i see so many parents and kids fall into this trap of spending a ton of money (100s of thousands) and literally years of their lives to play lax in college...and maybe get into ivy...Ya, you got into the school but can your really do the work to get those investment banking jobs, etc? probably not because you got in through lax, not really through brains. but brains is not everything, and it takes hustle, sacrifice, drive, determination, etc. to be successful at anything.

i really don't hate on the PG thing, or dropping a grade thing, but I just have to laugh at the parents and kids that do it who aren't really that good at lax to begin with. overall, its just bad for the sport. just fuels more greed, egos and wasting time and money. but hey, if you got the money and time, then go for it. i for one didn't have $100K to $200K to blow on the sport, and every weekend to fly around the country to see my son play "all-star" games and glorified pickup games. some folks have that, and more power to them. but at a higher level, what does this do to the sport, help or hurt it? I think you all know what that answer is.

[renault]

Fanlax999, not sure why all the hate, my son PG'd with a few others, yes they turned 20 freshman year but landed at Brown(2), G'town, ND, Harvard, NC. In my opinion, no great rush to work 40+ yrs. Alot of other non athletes are entering late as well with Gap years, taking 5 years to complete college.etc. So age differences is not a big deal when the enter the working world.

(snip)

5. At 25, first time job applicants are competing against post grad (MS/MBA/MA) applicants.

(snip)

Huh? Your 25-year-old kid who just graduated from college is competing against other kids who just graduated from college (most of them 22 or so). They're at no disadvantage.

[OCanada]

Canadian Schools used to have 13 grades. When we played them I'm sports we were always younger. I can't recall but I believe the Gaits were 20/21 when they entered Cuse. Sometimes the PG year is to allow the player to establish they can do the academic work their history does not demonstrate they can successfully manage at the school they want to attend.

[Dip&Dunk]

Fanlax999, not sure why all the hate, my son PG'd with a few others, yes they turned 20 freshman year but landed at Brown(2), G'town, ND, Harvard, NC. In my opinion, no great rush to work 40+ yrs. Alot of other non athletes are entering late as well with Gap years, taking 5 years to complete college.etc. So age differences is not a big deal when the enter the working world.

(snip)

5. At 25, first time job applicants are competing against post grad (MS/MBA/MA) applicants.

(snip)

Huh? Your 25-year-old kid who just graduated from college is competing against other kids who just graduated from college (most of them 22 or so). They're at no disadvantage.

Yep. I will put my 25 year old with a master's against your 25 year old with a lax resume any day.

[thetruth]

Fanlax999, not sure why all the hate, my son PG'd with a few others, yes they turned 20 freshman year but landed at Brown(2), G'town, ND, Harvard, NC. In my opinion, no great rush to work 40+ yrs. Alot of other non athletes are entering late as well with Gap years, taking 5 years to complete college.etc. So age differences is not a big deal when the enter the working world.

(snip)

5. At 25, first time job applicants are competing against post grad (MS/MBA/MA) applicants.

(snip)

Huh? Your 25-year-old kid who just graduated from college is competing against other kids who just graduated from college (most of them 22 or so). They're at no disadvantage.

Yep. I will put my 25 year old with a master's against your 25 year old with a lax resume any day.

That’s great, but they won’t be competing for the same job. It will be undergrads competing against other undergrads and graduate students competing against other graduate students for different jobs and the best man or woman will win regardless of age.

[Dip&Dunk]

Fanlax999, not sure why all the hate, my son PG'd with a few others, yes they turned 20 freshman year but landed at Brown(2), G'town, ND, Harvard, NC. In my opinion, no great rush to work 40+ yrs. Alot of other non athletes are entering late as well with Gap years, taking 5 years to complete college.etc. So age differences is not a big deal when the enter the working world.

(snip)

5. At 25, first time job applicants are competing against post grad (MS/MBA/MA) applicants.

(snip)

Huh? Your 25-year-old kid who just graduated from college is competing against other kids who just graduated from college (most of them 22 or so). They're at no disadvantage.

Yep. I will put my 25 year old with a master's against your 25 year old with a lax resume any day.

That’s great, but they won’t be competing for the same job. It will be undergrads competing against other undergrads and graduate students competing against other graduate students for different jobs and the best man or woman will win regardless of age.

No, they will be competing for the same job. Two people applying for an entry level job. They are both entry level. A 22 year old with no job experience is entry level. A 25 year old with no job experience is also entry level. And yes you are right, the best will win regardless of age. And in this case, it is the one with the master's degree that is best in this comparison. You cannot have it both ways.

[Matnum PI]

The words "win" and "best" make 100% sense on a lacrosse field. That's the point and a big part of what makes lacrosse fun. When these words start to creep into every day language, that 100% starts to decline rapidly. Make no mistake, we all, myself included, want to hire the best (wo)man for the job, etc. But when what determines best becomes defined by (often) superficial metrics, the barometer starts dropping: 99%, 98%, 97%... You hire people, not degrees. You can buy your kid the best equipment, the best teams, the best tourneys, the best high schools (and more years of the best high schools), the best colleges, the best summer internship, the best grad degree, and... This doesn't make the kid the best. All I've learned from this kid's resume thus far is that he's competent enough not to get cut from his team or thrown out of school and that his father is rich (or ridiculously in debt).

[thetruth]

The words "win" and "best" make 100% sense on a lacrosse field. That's the point and a big part of what makes lacrosse fun. When these words start to creep into every day language, that 100% starts to decline rapidly. Make no mistake, we all, myself included, want to hire the best (wo)man for the job, etc. But when what determines best becomes defined by (often) superficial metrics, the barometer starts dropping: 99%, 98%, 97%... You hire people, not degrees. You can buy your kid the best equipment, the best teams, the best tourneys, the best high schools (and more years of the best high schools), the best colleges, the best summer internship, the best grad degree, and... This doesn't make the kid the best. All I've learned from this kid's resume thus far is that he's competent enough not to get cut from his team or thrown out of school and that his father is rich (or ridiculously in debt).

The "best man or woman will win" is a colloquialism. It's not literal. What I literally mean is the a company will hire who it thinks is the best fit for the position it is looking to fill.

[Matnum PI]

I wasn't speaking to your one line. (Didn't even see it... or, more accurately, remember it.) I was speaking in general about the content and tone of this thread. And so much outside this thread.

[thetruth]

I wasn't speaking to your one line. (Didn't even see it... or, more accurately, remember it.) I was speaking in general about the content and tone of this thread. And so much outside this thread.

Understood. Fair point and a good comment.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Fanlax999, not sure why all the hate, my son PG'd with a few others, yes they turned 20 freshman year but landed at Brown(2), G'town, ND, Harvard, NC. In my opinion, no great rush to work 40+ yrs. Alot of other non athletes are entering late as well with Gap years, taking 5 years to complete college.etc. So age differences is not a big deal when the enter the working world.

(snip)

5. At 25, first time job applicants are competing against post grad (MS/MBA/MA) applicants.

(snip)

Huh? Your 25-year-old kid who just graduated from college is competing against other kids who just graduated from college (most of them 22 or so). They're at no disadvantage.

Yep. I will put my 25 year old with a master's against your 25 year old with a lax resume any day.

That’s great, but they won’t be competing for the same job. It will be undergrads competing against other undergrads and graduate students competing against other graduate students for different jobs and the best man or woman will win regardless of age.

No, they will be competing for the same job. Two people applying for an entry level job. They are both entry level. A 22 year old with no job experience is entry level. A 25 year old with no job experience is also entry level. And yes you are right, the best will win regardless of age. And in this case, it is the one with the master's degree that is best in this comparison. You cannot have it both ways.

Firms recruit at the graduate level and at the under graduate level for different tracks. They may come in the firm doing the same initial work but they are on different tracks.

[Wood Sticks 4ever]

Fanlax999, not sure why all the hate, my son PG'd with a few others, yes they turned 20 freshman year but landed at Brown(2), G'town, ND, Harvard, NC. In my opinion, no great rush to work 40+ yrs. Alot of other non athletes are entering late as well with Gap years, taking 5 years to complete college.etc. So age differences is not a big deal when the enter the working world.

(snip)

5. At 25, first time job applicants are competing against post grad (MS/MBA/MA) applicants.

(snip)

Huh? Your 25-year-old kid who just graduated from college is competing against other kids who just graduated from college (most of them 22 or so). They're at no disadvantage.

Yep. I will put my 25 year old with a master's against your 25 year old with a lax resume any day.

That’s great, but they won’t be competing for the same job. It will be undergrads competing against other undergrads and graduate students competing against other graduate students for different jobs and the best man or woman will win regardless of age.

No, they will be competing for the same job. Two people applying for an entry level job. They are both entry level. A 22 year old with no job experience is entry level. A 25 year old with no job experience is also entry level. And yes you are right, the best will win regardless of age. And in this case, it is the one with the master's degree that is best in this comparison. You cannot have it both ways.

Great discussion. One spot we disagree is that the master's degree helps in getting entry level jobs. As a scarred veteran of dozens of those interviews (on the hiring side), two things I looked for were military experience or college varsity athletics - I never cared about advanced degrees, since they would all have to be retrained anyway. Based on my experience, ex-military and ex-athletes work through difficulties, compartmentalize duties, and work as part of a group far better than someone who spent extra time in college to get an advanced degree.

[44WeWantMore]

not hate for me either. but i don't deal with this issue with my kids. nor did i deal with it in any real way (though classmates disagree) when i was a younger man. kids stayed back, did PG years, etc. but it never dawned on me, then or now, that it was being done to get a competitive advantage on the field. 9 out of 10 times, it was to catch-up in the classroom. That aside, i have a family member (and others) who is hyper-competitive. this family member adopted a son and... They bought (my language, not theirs) the best son. his biological parents are physically the best... the son went to the best grade and high school... plays the best sports, takes part in the best extra-curricular... (for the record, he's 6' 5" and never made a varsity team)... he's going to the best college (just in case this isn't annoying you like it annoys me... the school was Hopkins. ) and part of the best major/program... he got the best job, lives in the best city, etc. You get the idea. anyway, along the way, they held him back a year. explicitly, to get a competitive advantage. while at JHU, they told him (and told me about this with pride... in their minds, they're the best parents) to miss tests so he could get the questions from classmates so he could do better on the test when he takes the make-up test. And, in all cases, what they're doing is "just smart". i could go on but you get the idea. yesterday and today, i played and play this silly game because i love it. it's like a cool breeze. just feels good. and... others relate to this game differently. relate to life differently. and i like keeping my distance from them and this mindset. not hate. just not my cup of tea.

I thought I had heard every 'throat' story, but this is a new one.

[44WeWantMore]

Pannell, Myles Jones, Gutterding, etc, etc... and numerous other AAs all did a PG year. As well as many great successful business people, coaches, teachers, parents, etc, etc...
I suppose you guys all think Bill Belichick and his parents were cheaters because he did a PG year at Andover.
Sorry folks, life isn't a level playing field. You can either complain about it or work hard to prevail.

Belichick a cheater?