Tufts Lacrosse Rhabdo Hospitalizations

[kramerica.inc]

pride and arrogance, and no one but the strongest of Tufts supporters would ever accuse their Coach of being on the right side of that line. It would appear that his pursuit of individual acknowledgment and accolade has spiraled into destructive madness. As I previously stated, there is likely video evidence of what took place during this “practice,” -see the constant pursuit of acknowledgment- and while we here won’t ever see it, I believe it will be featured prominently in civil court.

I think you're 100% correct. He was never the picture of modesty. BUT I don't think this was born of arrogance. If I had to guess, more likely an original bad decision and then carelessness. I'd be surprised if the HC was even around during the whole workout. "SEAL workout? Sounds good! Go do it!"

But that doesn't make it better. The bigger picture that the Tufts admin needs to worry about is the risk to the kids. I would be incredibly concerned if I were a parent there. Putting this many kids at risk was a terrible decision and doesn't build confidence. I just sent my child away to college. During the recruiting process I was incredibly aware that there are lots of coaches who can win NCs with the right program support. Lots opf coaches talk a great game to recruits. I was way more concerned with trying to figure out what the coach was asking the young adult to do. And how he led. And this type of stuff is what I'm talking about. Things like this makes me ask how a coach treats my son on the day to day- Is he gonna make my son take another run if he's dinged up, maybe concussed? They seem like small decisions at the time but it often leads to big mistakes and problems. I could definitely see some long-term issues arise from this. Not a great feeling if you're a parent.

[choochooCharlie]

pride and arrogance, and no one but the strongest of Tufts supporters would ever accuse their Coach of being on the right side of that line. It would appear that his pursuit of individual acknowledgment and accolade has spiraled into destructive madness. As I previously stated, there is likely video evidence of what took place during this “practice,” -see the constant pursuit of acknowledgment- and while we here won’t ever see it, I believe it will be featured prominently in civil court.

I think you're 100% correct. He was never the picture of modesty. BUT I don't think this was born of arrogance. If I had to guess, more likely an original bad decision and then carelessness. I'd be surprised if the HC was even around during the whole workout. "SEAL workout? Sounds good! Go do it!"

But that doesn't make it better. The bigger picture that the Tufts admin needs to worry about is the risk to the kids. I would be incredibly concerned if I were a parent there. Putting this many kids at risk was a terrible decision and doesn't build confidence. I just sent my child away to college. During the recruiting process I was incredibly aware that there are lots of coaches who can win NCs with the right program support. Lots opf coaches talk a great game to recruits. I was way more concerned with trying to figure out what the coach was asking the young adult to do. And how he led. And this type of stuff is what I'm talking about. Things like this makes me ask how a coach treats my son on the day to day- Is he gonna make my son take another run if he's dinged up, maybe concussed? They seem like small decisions at the time but it often leads to big mistakes and problems. I could definitely see some long-term issues arise from this. Not a great feeling if you're a parent.

Exactly. Sadly a situation such as this was predictable, and likely avoidable, if there was an honest assessment internally of the personality at play here. Yet, as if a microcosm of the University’s failures to do so, even here any time myself or any other poster were critical of factual and publicized behaviors, Tufts and NESCAC supporters would circle the wagons. Denying video or written quotes. Accusing those speaking of such of being “haters,” or “just jealous.” And now, like clock work, after their initial attempts to shout-down reports of this incident, they have turned to a position of “let’s just wait and see,” “let’s not jump to conclusions or discuss any further.” It is disingenuous high-roading that everyone should step back and wait, and as though those same individuals weren’t denying things initially, and wouldn’t like this whole thing to just go away. My .02.

[Chipzhoo]

pride and arrogance, and no one but the strongest of Tufts supporters would ever accuse their Coach of being on the right side of that line. It would appear that his pursuit of individual acknowledgment and accolade has spiraled into destructive madness. As I previously stated, there is likely video evidence of what took place during this “practice,” -see the constant pursuit of acknowledgment- and while we here won’t ever see it, I believe it will be featured prominently in civil court.

I think you're 100% correct. He was never the picture of modesty. BUT I don't think this was born of arrogance. If I had to guess, more likely an original bad decision and then carelessness. I'd be surprised if the HC was even around during the whole workout. "SEAL workout? Sounds good! Go do it!"

But that doesn't make it better. The bigger picture that the Tufts admin needs to worry about is the risk to the kids. I would be incredibly concerned if I were a parent there. Putting this many kids at risk was a terrible decision and doesn't build confidence. I just sent my child away to college. During the recruiting process I was incredibly aware that there are lots of coaches who can win NCs with the right program support. Lots opf coaches talk a great game to recruits. I was way more concerned with trying to figure out what the coach was asking the young adult to do. And how he led. And this type of stuff is what I'm talking about. Things like this makes me ask how a coach treats my son on the day to day- Is he gonna make my son take another run if he's dinged up, maybe concussed? They seem like small decisions at the time but it often leads to big mistakes and problems. I could definitely see some long-term issues arise from this. Not a great feeling if you're a parent.

Exactly. Sadly a situation such as this was predictable, and likely avoidable, if there was an honest assessment internally of the personality at play here. Yet, as if a microcosm of the University’s failures to do so, even here any time myself or any other poster were critical of factual and publicized behaviors, Tufts and NESCAC supporters would circle the wagons. Denying video or written quotes. Accusing those speaking of such of being “haters,” or “just jealous.” And now, like clock work, after their initial attempts to shout-down reports of this incident, they have turned to a position of “let’s just wait and see,” “let’s not jump to conclusions or discuss any further.” It is disingenuous high-roading that everyone should step back and wait, and as though those same individuals weren’t denying things initially, and wouldn’t like this whole thing to just go away. My .02.

Not worth $0.02. It doesn't always have to be about you... You've lumped in a whole bunch of people to this Tufts story that never commented on it - "NESCAC supporters"...? That's the ultimate tell though; you don't consider yourself a "NESCAC supporter."

[pcowlax]

pride and arrogance, and no one but the strongest of Tufts supporters would ever accuse their Coach of being on the right side of that line. It would appear that his pursuit of individual acknowledgment and accolade has spiraled into destructive madness. As I previously stated, there is likely video evidence of what took place during this “practice,” -see the constant pursuit of acknowledgment- and while we here won’t ever see it, I believe it will be featured prominently in civil court.

I think you're 100% correct. He was never the picture of modesty. BUT I don't think this was born of arrogance. If I had to guess, more likely an original bad decision and then carelessness. I'd be surprised if the HC was even around during the whole workout. "SEAL workout? Sounds good! Go do it!"

But that doesn't make it better. The bigger picture that the Tufts admin needs to worry about is the risk to the kids. I would be incredibly concerned if I were a parent there. Putting this many kids at risk was a terrible decision and doesn't build confidence. I just sent my child away to college. During the recruiting process I was incredibly aware that there are lots of coaches who can win NCs with the right program support. Lots opf coaches talk a great game to recruits. I was way more concerned with trying to figure out what the coach was asking the young adult to do. And how he led. And this type of stuff is what I'm talking about. Things like this makes me ask how a coach treats my son on the day to day- Is he gonna make my son take another run if he's dinged up, maybe concussed? They seem like small decisions at the time but it often leads to big mistakes and problems. I could definitely see some long-term issues arise from this. Not a great feeling if you're a parent.

Exactly. Sadly a situation such as this was predictable, and likely avoidable, if there was an honest assessment internally of the personality at play here. Yet, as if a microcosm of the University’s failures to do so, even here any time myself or any other poster were critical of factual and publicized behaviors, Tufts and NESCAC supporters would circle the wagons. Denying video or written quotes. Accusing those speaking of such of being “haters,” or “just jealous.” And now, like clock work, after their initial attempts to shout-down reports of this incident, they have turned to a position of “let’s just wait and see,” “let’s not jump to conclusions or discuss any further.” It is disingenuous high-roading that everyone should step back and wait, and as though those same individuals weren’t denying things initially, and wouldn’t like this whole thing to just go away. My .02.

Who? Literally who is saying anything like that? One guy initially had a terrible response and hasn't posted since. Since then, there has been nothing. You are completely making that up. Your attempts at analysis about Tufts and NESCAC teams (and dear god do you have an obsession) are generally at the level of commenting on pictures of sneakers on twitter. Look the mirror and grown up. You are trying to exploit the suffering of kids to advance a fetish of yours.

[choochooCharlie]

Who? Literally who is saying anything like that? One guy initially had a terrible response and hasn't posted since. Since then, there has been nothing. You are completely making that up. Your attempts at analysis about Tufts and NESCAC teams (and dear god do you have an obsession) are generally at the level of commenting on pictures of sneakers on twitter. Look the mirror and grown up. You are trying to exploit the suffering of kids to advance a fetish of yours.

How about YOU look in the mirror, and stop trying to sweep hospitalized kids under the rug because you’re worried about perceptions of schools or conferences.

Here’s just a few of the people who “didn’t say” anything like they’re quoted below saying.

I forgot the Navy Seal put a gun to there head and forced them todo it and if they stopped he pistol whip the players.

…can we find a solution on the spectrum between sweeping it under the rug and firing everyone associated? I just have a hard time with firing everyone immediately being the solution

we should not rush to judgement without having ALL the facts which we dont know.

I suspect it is a case of overzealous reporting…
Check back in a week or so.

…getting waaaaaay too much press for sure. Most of the boys enjoyed the training, not necessarily during the workout but felt accomplished afterward. I don’t know a single parent who’s pissed off, and I know most of them, so that’s fake news. It’s a big nothing burger.

It happens with college football programs.

- rhabdo doesn’t automatically indicate that some inhumane workout

Easier to see this as an unfortunate mistake/misalignment of expectations and preparation, but not indicative of negligence or poor management.

bad training happens in all environments,

the same nuclear “toxic culture!! fire everyone!!” hot takes will come from many of the same people for many of the same reasons they always do,

ultimately no one in here knows anything.

Looking forward to some actual facts… don't think there should or will be major consequences.

[MIAAlaxluvr40]

Unless anyone here has direct information from the team or the ongoing investigation, I think we should wait to make judgements until then. The fact three players are still hospitalized is concerning and hope they recover soon. Doing some research, it looks like the team had completed previous workouts from The Program so the coaches understand the rigor of the workout. Now, given the activities that go along with alumni weekend, do I think this was the smartest way to punish hungover D3 players? Assuming there were coaches or athletic trainers watching, did they try to stop the SEAL grad from pushing players past exhaustion and puking or just watch it happen? I fully support team-building exercises, but this, it looks like a grave misjudgment from the coaching staff and will bit them in the ass because of it. Not saying anyone will be fired, but they will have to deeply reflect on how the prioritize the safety of their players over trying to repeat. They are the reigning champs, but I don’t really see many other successful programs (Salisbury, RIT) doing any of this and still are able to compete for NC. Tufts supporter or not, let’s all hope for the safe recovery oof the players health and see them back on the field in the spring.

[The12lov3]

Unless anyone here has direct information from the team or the ongoing investigation, I think we should wait to make judgements until then. The fact three players are still hospitalized is concerning and hope they recover soon. Doing some research, it looks like the team had completed previous workouts from The Program so the coaches understand the rigor of the workout. Now, given the activities that go along with alumni weekend, do I think this was the smartest way to punish hungover D3 players? Assuming there were coaches or athletic trainers watching, did they try to stop the SEAL grad from pushing players past exhaustion and puking or just watch it happen? I fully support team-building exercises, but this, it looks like a grave misjudgment from the coaching staff and will bit them in the ass because of it. Not saying anyone will be fired, but they will have to deeply reflect on how the prioritize the safety of their players over trying to repeat. They are the reigning champs, but I don’t really see many other successful programs (Salisbury, RIT) doing any of this and still are able to compete for NC. Tufts supporter or not, let’s all hope for the safe recovery oof the players health and see them back on the field in the spring.

This is well said except we don't know if it was punishment. I am the first one to admit that me like most are speculating here. I believe that the workout was intense and that homecoming weekend might have contributed to the number of players that were affected by this because of possible dehydration due to drinking all weekend. That is my theory but I don't know for sure. Maybe it was 100% related to the workout but I don't think there was any abuse going on here. Did the kids do anything wrong, hell no because they were being college kids. Were the staff negligent or did something wrong - we don't know. Intense workouts is not necessarily synonymous with wrongdoing, abuse, or anything else that you want to call it. I think that the facts need to come out and then punishment if warranted should be handed out. One thing for sure is that they need to re-evaluate this type of training or do it in a safe smart manner. The most important thing at the moment is the kids getting better and finding out what happened here so it never happens again on any level. The facts will reveal the next steps.

choochooCharlie needs to grow up and stop taking things out of context to further his agenda.

[Laxxal22]

Assuming there were coaches or athletic trainers watching, did they try to stop the SEAL grad from pushing players past exhaustion and puking or just watch it happen?

Based on how the NESCAC operated in the past there wouldn't have been coaches or trainers present. Maybe it's changed, my reference at this point is almost a full generation ago, but essentially everything is run by captains until the first day of "tryouts" in the beginning of February. This could be a big point of change where the league either permanently allows more formal offseason activities/training, or goes the other way and bans even captains' led work. Knowing the NESCAC my guess would lean towards to the latter.

[netminder]

All parties have lawyered up by now and unless a family chooses to speak - details of the event will be lacking. Once these players needed to be hospitalized this incident went to a different level and brings in many outside parties, ie: lawyers, Tuft's Insurance Company, NCAA, and NESCAC conference officials. Tuft's, I don't think, has any control of where this investigation goes at this point. The university is in damage control mode and trying to make this go away as quickly as possible.

[The12lov3]

All parties have lawyered up by now and unless a family chooses to speak - details of the event will be lacking. Once these players needed to be hospitalized this incident went to a different level and brings in many outside parties, ie: lawyers, Tuft's Insurance Company, NCAA, and NESCAC conference officials. Tuft's, I don't think, has any control of where this investigation goes at this point. The university is in damage control mode and trying to make this go away as quickly as possible.

Is this fact? How do you know people have lawyered up? Attorney's are expensive.

[creasecone66]

Attorneys are expensive. Unrelated, full freight for a year at Tufts appears to be $89,292 according to their website.

[MIAAlaxluvr40]

Assuming there were coaches or athletic trainers watching, did they try to stop the SEAL grad from pushing players past exhaustion and puking or just watch it happen?

Based on how the NESCAC operated in the past there wouldn't have been coaches or trainers present. Maybe it's changed, my reference at this point is almost a full generation ago, but essentially everything is run by captains until the first day of "tryouts" in the beginning of February. This could be a big point of change where the league either permanently allows more formal offseason activities/training, or goes the other way and bans even captains' led work. Knowing the NESCAC my guess would lean towards to the latter.

So you are telling me that they are able to have a photographer and videographer on site to make sure they can post on instaface, but no coaches or trainers are present to take care for the well-being of the athletes? If true, wow is all I can say, disaster incoming.

[MIAAlaxluvr40]

Unless anyone here has direct information from the team or the ongoing investigation, I think we should wait to make judgements until then. The fact three players are still hospitalized is concerning and hope they recover soon. Doing some research, it looks like the team had completed previous workouts from The Program so the coaches understand the rigor of the workout. Now, given the activities that go along with alumni weekend, do I think this was the smartest way to punish hungover D3 players? Assuming there were coaches or athletic trainers watching, did they try to stop the SEAL grad from pushing players past exhaustion and puking or just watch it happen? I fully support team-building exercises, but this, it looks like a grave misjudgment from the coaching staff and will bit them in the ass because of it. Not saying anyone will be fired, but they will have to deeply reflect on how the prioritize the safety of their players over trying to repeat. They are the reigning champs, but I don’t really see many other successful programs (Salisbury, RIT) doing any of this and still are able to compete for NC. Tufts supporter or not, let’s all hope for the safe recovery oof the players health and see them back on the field in the spring.

This is well said except we don't know if it was punishment. I am the first one to admit that me like most are speculating here. I believe that the workout was intense and that homecoming weekend might have contributed to the number of players that were affected by this because of possible dehydration due to drinking all weekend. That is my theory but I don't know for sure. Maybe it was 100% related to the workout but I don't think there was any abuse going on here. Did the kids do anything wrong, hell no because they were being college kids. Were the staff negligent or did something wrong - we don't know. Intense workouts is not necessarily synonymous with wrongdoing, abuse, or anything else that you want to call it. I think that the facts need to come out and then punishment if warranted should be handed out. One thing for sure is that they need to re-evaluate this type of training or do it in a safe smart manner. The most important thing at the moment is the kids getting better and finding out what happened here so it never happens again on any level. The facts will reveal the next steps.

choochooCharlie needs to grow up and stop taking things out of context to further his agenda.

Punishment is a harsh word. Do I think it’s a coincidence the coaches chose the day after alumni weekend to have a SEAL workout, especially this early in the year? My gut tells me it’s related.

[The12lov3]

I just read an article about a women who did cross-fit and did not know until a few day later that she had the condition. Please read this article because I think it gives a perspective.

https://nypost.com/2024/09/23/lifestyle ... challenge/

[shorelax12]

Assuming there were coaches or athletic trainers watching, did they try to stop the SEAL grad from pushing players past exhaustion and puking or just watch it happen?

Based on how the NESCAC operated in the past there wouldn't have been coaches or trainers present. Maybe it's changed, my reference at this point is almost a full generation ago, but essentially everything is run by captains until the first day of "tryouts" in the beginning of February. This could be a big point of change where the league either permanently allows more formal offseason activities/training, or goes the other way and bans even captains' led work. Knowing the NESCAC my guess would lean towards to the latter.

So you are telling me that they are able to have a photographer and videographer on site to make sure they can post on instaface, but no coaches or trainers are present to take care for the well-being of the athletes? If true, wow is all I can say, disaster incoming.

NESCAC permits 10 coach practices, everything else in the fall are captain's practices.

[Red4Life]

All parties have lawyered up by now and unless a family chooses to speak - details of the event will be lacking. Once these players needed to be hospitalized this incident went to a different level and brings in many outside parties, ie: lawyers, Tuft's Insurance Company, NCAA, and NESCAC conference officials. Tuft's, I don't think, has any control of where this investigation goes at this point. The university is in damage control mode and trying to make this go away as quickly as possible.

Is this fact? How do you know people have lawyered up? Attorney's are expensive.

When it comes to a child who has been physically harmed and possibly emotionally as well due to “alleged” (keeping the preferred neutral stance here) malfeasance by the university leaders who have been entrusted to monitor and protect their health and safety - lawyers fees are a drop in the bucket - and more than likely there will be a few families whose the same firm who will work on a contingency basis! Reminder that the financial freight families are bearing to have their son attend Tufts is significant - as they say Tufts diploma don’t come cheap!!!

[The Orfling]

A few additional thoughts here after reading the comments:

• I don't think the university waiting until 3-4 days after the workout to issue a statement means any attempt at sweeping things under the rug, etc. From descriptions of rhabdo, people often are not aware of serious problems until a bit later so there could have been a lag. Then, the university needs to quickly delve into what happened -- the who what where when why of the injuries -- and then prioritize communications with the families of the affected athletes, the other athletes and parents. There's a lot that the university needed to understand before issuing a statement -- this actually came out pretty quickly all-considered, and Tufts has already committed to an investigation.

• The updated statement says the university's investigation will look at what happened before, during, and after" the workout so I'm sure that includes looking at whether proper channels were followed for reporting injuries from a team and athletic department standpoint once it was clear athletes had suffered injuries from the workout;

• We can't assume it was a specific outside group like the Program -- in fact, the news accounts seem to suggest it was one individual -- a Tufts alum who was also a recent BUD/s graduate;

• I would not assume having the workout on Monday after alumni weekend was some sort of punishment -- in fact, it may have been as simple as the alum being in town for the festivities and then he stayed an extra day to attend practice.

• How this turns out for the coaches probably depends on a multiplicity of factors, including whether and to what degree there is lasting harm to some of the injured athletes (I pray there's none); whether NESCAC rules were broken; whether internal Tufts policies (e.g. trainers at practices etc. or reporting of injuries helping students get medical attention) were broken; and whether the families involved see it as an unfortunate accident or negligent malfeasance.

Most of all, of course, wishing the players who were affected a speedy and full recovery. The updated statement seemed somewhat hopeful on that front (fingers crossed).

[The12lov3]

A few additional thoughts here after reading the comments:

• I don't think the university waiting until 3-4 days after the workout to issue a statement means any attempt at sweeping things under the rug, etc. From descriptions of rhabdo, people often are not aware of serious problems until a bit later so there could have been a lag. Then, the university needs to quickly delve into what happened -- the who what where when why of the injuries -- and then prioritize communications with the families of the affected athletes, the other athletes and parents. There's a lot that the university needed to understand before issuing a statement -- this actually came out pretty quickly all-considered, and Tufts has already committed to an investigation.

• The updated statement says the university's investigation will look at what happened before, during, and after" the workout so I'm sure that includes looking at whether proper channels were followed for reporting injuries from a team and athletic department standpoint once it was clear athletes had suffered injuries from the workout;

• We can't assume it was a specific outside group like the Program -- in fact, the news accounts seem to suggest it was one individual -- a Tufts alum who was also a recent BUD/s graduate;

• I would not assume having the workout on Monday after alumni weekend was some sort of punishment -- in fact, it may have been as simple as the alum being in town for the festivities and then he stayed an extra day to attend practice.

• How this turns out for the coaches probably depends on a multiplicity of factors, including whether and to what degree there is lasting harm to some of the injured athletes (I pray there's none); whether NESCAC rules were broken; whether internal Tufts policies (e.g. trainers at practices etc. or reporting of injuries helping students get medical attention) were broken; and whether the families involved see it as an unfortunate accident or negligent malfeasance.

Most of all, of course, wishing the players who were affected a speedy and full recovery. The updated statement seemed somewhat hopeful on that front (fingers crossed).

This is well said and on point.

God bless these kids and hope to see them healthy and back on the field ASAP.

[ah23]

A few additional thoughts here after reading the comments:

Very well said. Costs nothing to approach this stuff with a level head.

[nelaxman]

Scary stuff, from just goggling rhabdomyolysis:

What is the outlook for rhabdomyolysis?

Many people recover after rhabdomyolysis treatment. But most people have lingering muscle weakness after the injury. In up to 50% of rhabdomyolysis cases, people experience acute kidney injury. Some people need dialysis for an extended time if their kidneys can’t function.

Lawsuits will be coming!