All Things Russia & Ukraine

[Typical Lax Dad]

The WIki references the DoD.

Yeah, that's ONE chart. Here ya go. It was 10 dead, four "in action", as if the other deaths "don't count" as action. Ready to take a knee yet?

KABUL, Afghanistan — Ten American service members died in Afghanistan in 2020, including four who were killed in action, making for the lowest number of U.S. combat deaths in the country in a calendar year since the war began in October 2001.

https://www.stripes.com/theaters/middle ... 0-1.656849

All the chart already showed 4 in 2020, it was Zero for the year prior to Abbey Gate. I suppose you are already on your knees?, considering you said 12/yr.

Dude. What part of 10 dead in 2020 do you not want to hear? Is stars and stripes lying, or did 10 servicemen die over there in 2020?

afan counts deaths in vehicle accidents, plane crashes, & suicides as deaths by hostile action. He lives in a bubble.

Do these deaths "earn" the right for burial at Arlington National Cemetery in Section 60?

Trump may show up if they do.

[old salt]

2xIMPOTUS o d

Lied

"When I left office, we had not lost a single service member in combat in Afghanistan in more than 18 months," Trump said at a rally in North Carolina on Aug. 21.

Correct, that would not be a truthful statement.

But there was 18 months without a combat death prior Aug/2021....a hope afan knows the number is not 12/year now.

Since it was Zero for 18 months of (12 months)Trump and (8 months) Biden.

Do you give a rat's *ss how they died? Be the parents and families of the fallen don't. There were 10 deaths, and those deaths cannot happen if they aren't there, my man.

You're being played, and you know it. If they did as you asked, took their sweet time, and as a result, there were casualties? You and OS would be on here whining about how "Biden took too long to evacuate! Why does it take a freaking year to get a piddly 2,000 troops out??"....you know it, and everyone here knows it.

My point is made, and you can't refute it, because both your and OS's plan for leaving is (drumroll): not to leave. It's just about the dumbest thing you guys have whined about on this forum, and I'm really tired of you both saying the EXACT same thing FoxNation says. At some point, you two need to form your own opinions, and run counter to what Fox tells you to think. You're both too smart to keep thinking what they tell you to think.

No matter what Biden did, Fox was going to say it was wrong. At some point, you have to wake up to this game they play.

Aircraft accidents, motor vehicle accidents, suicides & other accidental deaths happen all the time in all duty stations.

Look at how few casualties our residual forces still in the ME take. A small price to pay for the stability they bring.
If a soldier dies in a helo crash in S Korea it's no different than if a soldier dies in a helo crash in N Carolina.
I've lost friends & spent time with their grieving families. You have no grounds to tell me I don't care. They were doing something they believed in.

[PizzaSnake]

2xIMPOTUS o d

Lied

"When I left office, we had not lost a single service member in combat in Afghanistan in more than 18 months," Trump said at a rally in North Carolina on Aug. 21.

Correct, that would not be a truthful statement.

But there was 18 months without a combat death prior Aug/2021....a hope afan knows the number is not 12/year now.

Since it was Zero for 18 months of (12 months)Trump and (8 months) Biden.

Do you give a rat's *ss how they died? Be the parents and families of the fallen don't. There were 10 deaths, and those deaths cannot happen if they aren't there, my man.

You're being played, and you know it. If they did as you asked, took their sweet time, and as a result, there were casualties? You and OS would be on here whining about how "Biden took too long to evacuate! Why does it take a freaking year to get a piddly 2,000 troops out??"....you know it, and everyone here knows it.

My point is made, and you can't refute it, because both your and OS's plan for leaving is (drumroll): not to leave. It's just about the dumbest thing you guys have whined about on this forum, and I'm really tired of you both saying the EXACT same thing FoxNation says. At some point, you two need to form your own opinions, and run counter to what Fox tells you to think. You're both too smart to keep thinking what they tell you to think.

No matter what Biden did, Fox was going to say it was wrong. At some point, you have to wake up to this game they play.

Aircraft accidents, motor vehicle accidents, suicides & other accidental deaths happen all the time in all duty stations.

Look at how few casualties our residual forces still in the ME take. A small price to pay for the stability they bring.
If a soldier dies in a helo crash in S Korea it's no different than if a soldier dies in a helo crash in N Carolina.
I've lost friends & spent time with their grieving families. You have no grounds to tell me I don't care. They were doing something they believed in.

I’d say that would be a matter of perspective and proximity…

[a fan]

You have no grounds to tell me I don't care.

You just can't make up your mind.

When a R is potus, you tell us people die all the time, and it's part of the job.

When a D is potus, you come on here and tell us they're to blame for these exact same deaths, and I'm sick of you spewing this nonsense.

And every time, when we drill down, you come on here, and try and plant the goalposts where you tell us that when Trump is President, troops die, and it's part of the deal, but the INSTANT Biden shows up, you're on here making idiotic claims about how Biden is personally responsible and at fault for any military deaths.....and even worse, make your half-wit claim that "the reason Putin invaded was Biden "did it wrong" with his withdrawal". Oh yeah, that's TOTALLY why he invaded.

Now you're here, pretending you never said that, and are trying to appear wise. GFTO of here with your nonsense trolling. Everyone is fed up with your stupid pointless partisan trolling.

[a fan]

If a soldier dies in a helo crash in S Korea it's no different than if a soldier dies in a helo crash in N Carolina.

Then stop whining about those lost when a Dem is in the White House 12,032nd fake problem solved.

[old salt]

You have no grounds to tell me I don't care.

You just can't make up your mind.

When a R is potus, you tell us people die all the time, and it's part of the job.

When a D is potus, you come on here and tell us they're to blame for these exact same deaths, and I'm sick of you spewing this nonsense.

And every time, when we drill down, you come on here, and try and plant the goalposts where you tell us that when Trump is President, troops die, and it's part of the deal, but the INSTANT Biden shows up, you're on here making idiotic claims about how Biden is personally responsible and at fault for any military deaths.....and even worse, make your half-wit claim that "the reason Putin invaded was Biden "did it wrong" with his withdrawal". Oh yeah, that's TOTALLY why he invaded.

Now you're here, pretending you never said that, and are trying to appear wise. GFTO of here with your nonsense trolling. Everyone is fed up with your stupid pointless partisan trolling.

It's not the same thing when they die due to a feckless decision by a political leader who then refuses to take responsibility for his or her decision -- like Benghazi, the Afghan pullout, or Black Hawk Down.

[a fan]

It's not the same thing when they die due to a feckless decision by a political leader who then refuses to take responsibility for his or her decision -- like Benghazi, the Afghan pullout, or Black Hawk Down.

....and there it is, ladies and gentlemen. Just zero shame. Gee OS, what a "coincidence" that all three happened with Dems in the White House.

GFY and your petty trolling. You want to make d*ck posts, and troll for responses? Works for me.

[OCanada]

He is an extremist

He mentions Benghazi but does not mention that the GOP cut the protection. budget by a lotand ss a result the mission was underfunded st the time but that never gets mentioned. By the was the SS budget has also been underfunded. Thx GOP. should take a bow.

I virw OC ss a fifth columnist

[NattyBohChamps04]

I wonder who spouted the phrase: "I don’t take responsibility at all"

Surely not one of the current presidential candidates.

[a fan]

I wonder who spouted the phrase: "I don’t take responsibility at all"

Surely not one of the current presidential candidates.

It's like talking to a child. No one is this stupid.

[old salt]

He is an extremist

He mentions Benghazi but does not mention that the GOP cut the protection. budget by a lotand ss a result the mission was underfunded st the time but that never gets mentioned. By the was the SS budget has also been underfunded. Thx GOP. should take a bow.

I virw OC ss a fifth columnist

That had nothing to do with what happened in Benghazi. Why were we establishing a mission in Benghazi when all of our allies were pulling their people outta there ? Our Ambassador was there (on 9-11 of all days) to set up a campaign photo op visit for conquering heroine HRC. Then they tried to blame it on a video.

[OCanada]

Yeah it did. You sound like the apologists for Vance

[a fan]

That had nothing to do with what happened in Benghazi. Why were we establishing a mission in Benghazi when all of our allies were pulling their people outta there ? Our Ambassador was there (on 9-11 of all days) to set up a campaign photo op visit for conquering heroine HRC. Then they tried to blame it on a video.

What happened to "oh these soldiers and diplomats were just doing their jobs"??

When Old Salt thinks we MUST be in a country, dead soldiers are awesome, and just "doing their jobs".

When "anyone else" thinks we MUST be in a country, oh that's bad, and those deaths are bad.

Toddler logic.

[OCanada]

There are reports on Benghazi. The act in bad faith GOP wanted to use it to attack Clinton. Reports were written. Wonderment when ithe Rs discovered no decisions having to do with Benghazi rose to her level but rather lay in the State Department below her level

If Trump is assassinated one day i expect the Rs to rinse and repeat. The SS is very under funded relative to its mission statement bcs of the GOP. They do not have optimal resources or strategy. This kind of deterioration is to be expected when the R strategy becomes SOP.

https://www.nbcnews.com/investigations/ ... rcna162698

[a fan]

There are reports on Benghazi. The act in bad faith GOP wanted to use it to attack Clinton. Reports were written. Wonderment when ithe Rs discovered no decisions having to do with Benghazi rose to her level but rather lay in the State Department below her level

You think OS cares? Hillary is bad. She's undergone years of training in combat tactics, and defending positions, so it's on her to protect our overseas installations.

As I said at the time: how stupid are we as a nation to put policy wonks in the State Dept in charge of defending our overseas assets and personnel?

Did anyone in the R party point this out, and make a change? F no. That would require thinking and problem solving, and we can't have that.

They didn't ACTUALLY want to correct the problem. They and OS wanted Trump as POTUS....and they got what they wanted.

How are those overseas assets in 2024? Better defended? Who cares, right?

[old salt]

That had nothing to do with what happened in Benghazi. Why were we establishing a mission in Benghazi when all of our allies were pulling their people outta there ? Our Ambassador was there (on 9-11 of all days) to set up a campaign photo op visit for conquering heroine HRC. Then they tried to blame it on a video.

What happened to "oh these soldiers and diplomats were just doing their jobs"??

When Old Salt thinks we MUST be in a country, dead soldiers are awesome, and just "doing their jobs".

When "anyone else" thinks we MUST be in a country, oh that's bad, and those deaths are bad.

Toddler logic.

It was a foolish decision, made for the wrong reasons, to put our diplomats in an unsecured, under-protected facility in Benghazi, & to then leave them there while our allies were pulling their people out. It became a political disaster when the Obama Admin lied about what happened & why.

[old salt]

https://www.wsj.com/world/one-million-a ... r-b09d04e5

One Million Are Now Dead or Injured in the Russia-Ukraine War
High losses on both sides are posing problems on battlefield and accelerating demographic fears
by Bojan Pancevski, Sept. 17, 2024

KYIV, Ukraine—The number of Ukrainians and Russians killed or wounded in the grinding 2½-year war has reached roughly one million, a staggering toll that two countries struggling with shrinking prewar populations will pay far into the future.

Determining the exact number of dead and wounded in the conflict has been difficult, with Russia and Ukraine declining to release official estimates or, at times, putting out figures that are widely mistrusted.

A confidential Ukrainian estimate from earlier this year put the number of dead Ukrainian troops at 80,000 and the wounded at 400,000, according to people familiar with the matter. Western intelligence estimates of Russian casualties vary, with some putting the number of dead as high as nearly 200,000 and wounded at around 400,000.

The losses are causing problems for Russia as it uses waves of poorly trained soldiers to try to advance in Ukraine’s east while also trying to counter a recent Ukrainian incursion in the Kursk region. But they are significantly more damaging for Ukraine, with a population less than one-quarter the size of its giant neighbor’s.

The high—and fast-rising—tolls on both sides highlight what will be a devastating long-term effect for countries that were struggling with population declines before the war mainly because of economic turmoil and social upheavals. They also illuminate one of Russian President Vladimir Putin’s own motivations behind launching the invasion in 2022: to boost Russia’s population by absorbing Ukrainians. Russia’s invasions and capture of Ukrainian territory over the past decade have caused Ukraine to lose at least 10 million people under occupation or as refugees, according to government estimates and demographers.

Putin has long declared addressing Russia’s chronic demographic decline a priority, and the Kremlin has since embarked on a campaign of Russifying occupied territories, including large-scale abduction of children and pressuring Ukrainians to obtain Russian citizenship. In the occupied Donbas region, selling property and other transactions now require obtaining Russian citizenship.

Today’s Ukraine was once part of the Russian Empire, and Putin has repeatedly said he seeks to revert the country to that state. He denies Ukrainian identity and statehood and claims that Ukrainians, a largely Slavic and Orthodox Christian people, are in fact part of the Russian nation.

“Demographics is a priority for Putin, and he wants to use Ukraine and its people to consolidate the Slavic core of Russia,” said Ivan Krastev, a Bulgarian-born political scientist and an author of a coming book on European demographics. “But for Ukraine, the dilemma is existential: How many people can you lose in a war before losing your future?”

Putin’s single most effective measure to boost Russia’s population before the full-scale invasion was the annexation of Crimea from Ukraine in 2014, which added around 2.4 million people to Russia, according to Krastev, who based his estimates on the latest Russian census.

While Russia has gained population by grabbing territory, the war has had a devastating effect on its internal demographics and the labor market. Well over 600,000 Russians fled the country since the full-scale invasion started. They are mainly younger and upwardly mobile professionals who were able to afford relocating to foreign countries and starting a new life.

Russia has traditionally relied on labor migration from Central Asia, but the war reduced, and in some cases even reversed, the flow of migrant workers. This exacerbated the growing labor shortage in Russia as Siberia and the Far East are rapidly depopulating. Government-linked experts have publicly floated the idea of importing workers from North Korea.

Russia’s assaults on Ukraine have had a catastrophic effect on its neighbor’s population. The most recent census, in 2001, recorded 48 million inhabitants. At the start of 2022, before Russia invaded, that had fallen to 40 million, including regions such as Crimea that Russia occupied in 2014, according to Ukrainian demographers and government officials. With over six million fleeing Ukraine since the start of the war in February 2022, according to the United Nations, and Russia seizing further land, the total population on Kyiv-controlled territory has now dropped to between 25 million and 27 million, according to previously undisclosed Ukrainian government estimates.

Oleksandr Gladun, a researcher at the Ptoukha Institute for Demography, gave higher estimates of 42 million for the prewar population of all of Ukraine and around 29 million living on government-controlled territory at the start of this year. The population of Ukraine can only be calculated a couple of years after the end of the war when the number of returnees will be clear, he said.

The effect could be enduring. Alongside military deaths, Ukraine’s birthrate also collapsed to the lowest recorded level: In the first half of this year, three times as many people died as were born, according to government data. Some 250,000 deaths and over 87,000 births were recorded in this period, which is 9% less than the same period last year, according to government figures. In 2021, the year before the full-scale invasion, over 130,000 births were recorded.

Russia’s way of war is also aimed at making Ukraine unlivable. Russian missile-and-drone attacks have knocked out large parts of Ukraine’s energy grid, including power stations, which could drive many more Ukrainians to seek refuge outside the country this winter if it leads to major electricity and heat outages.

Ukraine’s government, like that of Russia, keeps its war casualties secret. President Volodymyr Zelensky said in February that around 31,000 soldiers have so far been killed. Several former political and security officials said that underestimate was largely designed to placate society and help continue the mobilization of much-needed new recruits. A spokesman for Zelensky declined to comment.

One of the key reasons Zelensky refuses to mobilize the key cohort of men aged between 18 and 25—typically the bulk of any fighting force—is because most of these people haven’t had children yet, according to the former Ukrainian officials. Should the recruits of that age group die or become incapacitated, future demographic prospects would dim further, Ukrainian demographers say.

Ukraine has therefore resisted calls from Western partners to throw more men into the fight and has only implemented partial mobilization. The average age of Ukrainian fighters is now over 43, according to estimates by government and military officials. Kyiv has been recruiting small numbers of convicts and foreigners to boost numbers.

The civilian death toll remains unknown. Russia’s 2022 conquest of the southeastern port city of Mariupol alone claimed over 8,000 lives, according to estimates by Human Rights Watch, a nongovernmental organization.

[old salt]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ckout=true

Ukraine’s allies are starting to look at how a cease-fire could work

by Natalia Drozdiak, Alex Wickham and Alberto Nardelli - Bloomberg News (TNS) 16 hrs ago

Some of Ukraine’s allies are starting to talk about how the fight against Russia’s invasion might end, raising concerns in several other Western capitals that these efforts could lead to Kyiv being forced into a premature cease-fire.

As part of their discussions of strategy for the next year, officials are more seriously gaming out how a negotiated end to the conflict and an off-ramp could take shape, according to people familiar with the matter who asked for anonymity to discuss private deliberations.

The people made clear that any decision to negotiate would be for Kyiv to make and that nobody is pressuring Volodomyr Zelenskyy into talks. Ukraine’s president has been adamant, publicly and privately, that ceding territory to Russia would be unfair, the people said. With no sign that Russia has scaled back its objectives, the prospect of real negotiations still remains distant, they said.

But as the war heads toward another winter, there’s little sign of breakthrough on the battlefield. That’s prompting some allied officials to start exploring ways in which diplomacy could break the deadlock.

Though Kyiv’s surprise incursion into the Kursk region of Russia upended the perception the war had settled into a stalemate that played to the Kremlin’s strengths, there’s little immediate prospect of Kyiv dislodging Russian troops from all the land they occupy and some allies remain unclear about the operation’s longer-term strategic purpose. Moscow has struggled to advance on the ground but its missiles have destroyed large parts of Ukraine’s energy infrastructure, raising fears about how the country will weather this winter.

Zelenskiy is expected to push for NATO and E.U. membership, economic and security agreements and a continued supply of more advanced weapons as part of his “victory plan,” two of the people said. He’s due to present it to U.S. President Joe Biden when they meet on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly later this month. He is also keen to share the plans with presidential candidates Kamala Harris and Donald Trump.

A negotiation to end the fighting would have to resolve a key conundrum: how to ensure that Ukraine won’t be vulnerable to a future Russian attack while reassuring its allies that they won’t be dragged into a direct conflict with the Kremlin. The latter concern is a major reason why several allies have so far been cautious about allowing the use of the long-range weapons they provide in Russia and the possibility of Ukraine becoming part of NATO - with its security guarantee - anytime soon.

Any talks also would have to get over the bitter legacy of the Minsk Accords that were agreed after Vladimir Putin’s annexation of the Crimean peninsula in 2014. For Kyiv and its supporters, that agreement, signed seven years before the full-scale invasion, points to the hazards of entering negotiations with the Russians. Zelenskiy has warned that Putin would again use the time provided by any cease-fire to regroup and eventually attack again.

One European defense official said their government shares the concern that following any deal, Putin would prey on insecurities in the West as he prepared for a new conflict. What’s more, the official noted, it would be politically difficult for Zelenskiy to sign any agreement that includes territorial concessions while Putin’s goal to subjugate Ukraine in its entirety remains unchanged. At the very least, it would make sense for Putin to wait to see who wins the U.S. election and what their actual policies are, said the official.

Some allies believe that the time between the November U.S. election and next January’s presidential inauguration may provide a window of opportunity during which the outgoing Biden administration may have more political leeway to make a deal. Continued military and financial support for Ukraine could face uncertainty with a change of administration in the U.S. and the rise of far-right forces in Europe.

Should he win the election, Trump has also suggested he would seek a deal in that time, without providing details. JD Vance, his running mate, recently said the former president’s plan could include Russia retaining what it has taken and a demilitarized zone established along current battle lines.

On Sunday, German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who is among those to have resisted providing Ukraine with longer-range missiles, told broadcaster ZDF that now was the moment to discuss how to get out of the war faster.

A senior U.S. official said they expected Zelenskiy’s plan to be quite maximalist and conceptual rather than detailed. But the trajectory the war takes over the next two months will be quite significant, the official said. The base case is that the inauguration passes and the war continues to grinding on, but chances of alternative scenarios are not negligible, the official added.

Allies’ immediate concern is to help Ukraine restore some of its energy capacity ahead of winter and fend off Russian advances around the strategic town of Pokrovsk in the Donetsk region.

Still, discussions over the medium-term strategy are also fueling disagreements within some Western governments, officials said.

One camp is more persuaded by Putin’s threats of escalation if allies allow Ukraine to use the weapons they provide deep inside Russia and more likely to favor a push toward a diplomatic resolution. Other allies oppose negotiations anytime soon and want to increase the supply of arms to Ukraine.

That split over potential talks points to a long-standing frustration among some officials, and many in Ukraine, over the allies’ reluctance to give Zelenskiy more weaponry to deploy against Russian forces.

The Ukrainian president himself has criticized allies for delays to fulfilling commitments made earlier this year to provide Kyiv with more air defense systems and their ongoing indecision over lifting restrictions on the use of western-provided missiles to strike military targets deep inside Russia.

Moscow, in contrast, has been able to ramp up its production of missiles and artillery ammunition. It also receives military support from the likes of North Korea and Iran as well as key technologies from China that are needed to manufacture weapons.

Ukrainians are strongly opposed to any territorial concessions, with 55% of respondents rejecting the idea in a poll released by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology in July. However, the number of those categorically against giving up land drops to 38% if Kyiv is granted NATO and European Union membership as part of the deal.

[cradleandshoot]

He is an extremist

He mentions Benghazi but does not mention that the GOP cut the protection. budget by a lotand ss a result the mission was underfunded st the time but that never gets mentioned. By the was the SS budget has also been underfunded. Thx GOP. should take a bow.

I virw OC ss a fifth columnist

The maximum effective range of an excuse is zero meters. Benghazi had nothing to do with a lack of funding. Benghazi occured because of a lack of intelligence. The folks at DoS were worried about the optics of what an increase in security personnel would look like. It didn't matter how many times the ambassador requested more security, it just wouldn't have looked good. You can't tell the world there is no security issue in Libya and then increase security at your embassys. Even the media folks aren't stupid enough to fall for that bullchit.

[NattyBohChamps04]

Ukrainian drone attack triggers huge blasts at Russian ammo depot

The explosions in Toropets, in the Tver region, were so intense that they were picked up by NASA satellites and earthquake monitors.

They're really getting a bang for their buck. Russia hasn't really dealt with an active invading force for 80 years. Kind of wild.