Israel and West Bank Settlements

[MDlaxfan76]

Sheesh, they have never said that ‘Iran Will produce a bomb in X months’, they have only said how close, how capable, they are IF they decide to do so.

I just don’t understand why you are being dense about that.

There’s lots to critique about IC but your logic is just flat wrong. You’re usually much more clear eyed as well as willing to admit an error.

It's NOT an error, my friend: this intel put a gun to Obama's head and the rest of the countries who signed the JCPOA almost a decade ago.

So now that we did that, and Trump pulled out of it now four years ago, the gun is back from US intel.

And you're telling me.... politely..... that I'm stupid if I question the 2015 and 2024 Intel, and call both suspect.

i don't believe the intel was or is accurate, making it hard to know what to do next.

You DO think the 2015 and 2024 intel is accurate for reasons that I can assure you that you can't explain with logic.

No, I’m not expert enough or informed enough to know with high confidence that they are precisely accurate. I also have no basis to assume that they are flat wrong much less that they are just making it up out of whole cloth.

I also wouldn’t have any basis to assume you don’t have accurate insights on spirits…

I am not objecting to generalized skepticism, I’m just objecting to the specious logic you asserted, that because they didn’t produce a bomb that meant the time to breakout assessment proved false. And that the current assessment is also wrong. Nope, really bad logic.

MDlax. You're a smart man: there is zero chance you don't understand that your logic is based on a foundation of sand.

How do you know that the 2015 Intel was good? You don't. How do you know that the 2024 intel is good? You don't.

My logic is based on: it's been ten year since the original US intel assessment. That's a long time to not build a bomb. It's REASONABLE to assume that either their will or their ability to build one wasn't there back in 2015 when the initial Intel assessment was made. Sorry, but this is logically sound.

It's POSSIBLE that the JCPOA worked, yes. Very possible. But then you have to ask: what changed that they're working on a bomb again if the JCPOA worked?

Woah, you are shifting your argument.

Of course they decided to not build the weapon. It’s flat ridiculous to suggest they could not if they decided to do so.
The IC Never said they intended to do so, just that they had taken some of the necessary steps.
Your link is pretty darn clear on this.

It’s work that takes time to accomplish, but the steps are well known and they have the talent pool and access necessary.

I’m not arguing as to whether the deal altered a prior intention or whether leaving the deal caused another change in intention.

Just that claiming that the intel was necessarily not accurate because they didn’t build a weapon is entirely specious. You want to be skeptical, fine, just don’t claim proof that is so obviously bad logic.

[PizzaSnake]

So, what will be the reaction of the US? Besides “asking” for an investigation if the shooting of an American citizen?

Gonna roll over like a bcith?

“Eygi – a US-Turkey dual national – died on Friday after being fatally shot during a regular protest against settlement expansion in Beita near Nablus, the official Palestinian news agency Wafa reported.”


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/art ... k-reaction

[Typical Lax Dad]

So, what will be the reaction of the US? Besides “asking” for an investigation if the shooting of an American citizen?

Gonna roll over like a bcith?

“Eygi – a US-Turkey dual national – died on Friday after being fatally shot during a regular protest against settlement expansion in Beita near Nablus, the official Palestinian news agency Wafa reported.”


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/art ... k-reaction

That doesn’t sound like a real American name to me. I remember when Americans were named Sarah, Amanda, Elizabeth and the like.

[PizzaSnake]

So, what will be the reaction of the US? Besides “asking” for an investigation if the shooting of an American citizen?

Gonna roll over like a bcith?

“Eygi – a US-Turkey dual national – died on Friday after being fatally shot during a regular protest against settlement expansion in Beita near Nablus, the official Palestinian news agency Wafa reported.”


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/art ... k-reaction

That doesn’t sound like a real American name to me. I remember when Americans were named Sarah, Amanda, Elizabeth and the like.

Hersh?

[youthathletics]

Maybe they will bury her in the next couple days, prolong an investigation for months with little to no facts coming out, with hearing upon hearing of everyone that was supposedly in charge, scrub all social media and eave the globe with no answers. How convenient this makes world news after 6 hostages from Hamas die, with headlines prime the globe that she was killed by the 'supposedly' Israeli troops.

[Kismet]

Maybe they will bury her in the next couple days, prolong an investigation for months with little to no facts coming out, with hearing upon hearing of everyone that was supposedly in charge, scrub all social media and eave the globe with no answers. How convenient this makes world news after 6 hostages from Hamas die, with headlines prime the globe that she was killed by the 'supposedly' Israeli troops.

I'm missing something here - what exactly is your point and how would you want to proceed?

Killing hostages and protesters are both equally heinous to me (American or otherwise). I believe this is the third American citizen shot and killed by IDF soldiers recently. Seems State Department should act and request more information when ANY American citizen killed overseas.

[youthathletics]

Maybe they will bury her in the next couple days, prolong an investigation for months with little to no facts coming out, with hearing upon hearing of everyone that was supposedly in charge, scrub all social media and eave the globe with no answers. How convenient this makes world news after 6 hostages from Hamas die, with headlines prime the globe that she was killed by the 'supposedly' Israeli troops.

I'm missing something here - what exactly is your point and how would you want to proceed?

Killing hostages and protesters are both equally heinous to me (American or otherwise). I believe this is the third American citizen shot and killed by IDF soldiers recently. Seems State Department should act and request more information when ANY American citizen killed overseas.

Or Hamas release all the GD hostages, stop setting up camp and storing weapons in civilian locations like pu$$ies, stop the protesting about Free Palestine and pivot to protest Hamas for taking hostages in the first place, and for fuc(ing chit up and leave Israel the Eff alone. Sadly, war has a lot of collateral damage...I think we've seen this story the last 20 years of the GWOT....we screwed up plenty of our own vets, let alone all the Afghan families that supported us that were killed when we screwed up the Abbey Gate extraction by leaving biometrics for them to use

[cradleandshoot]

Maybe they will bury her in the next couple days, prolong an investigation for months with little to no facts coming out, with hearing upon hearing of everyone that was supposedly in charge, scrub all social media and eave the globe with no answers. How convenient this makes world news after 6 hostages from Hamas die, with headlines prime the globe that she was killed by the 'supposedly' Israeli troops.

I'm missing something here - what exactly is your point and how would you want to proceed?

Killing hostages and protesters are both equally heinous to me (American or otherwise). I believe this is the third American citizen shot and killed by IDF soldiers recently. Seems State Department should act and request more information when ANY American citizen killed overseas.

Or Hamas release all the GD hostages, stop setting up camp and storing weapons in civilian locations like pu$$ies, stop the protesting about Free Palestine and pivot to protest Hamas for taking hostages in the first place, and for fuc(ing chit up and leave Israel the Eff alone. Sadly, war has a lot of collateral damage...I think we've seen this story the last 20 years of the GWOT....we screwed up plenty of our own vets, let alone all the Afghan families that supported us that were killed when we screwed up the Abbey Gate extraction by leaving biometrics for them to use

+1.... It's like a lot of Israeli citizens forget how this war started. I understand their concern for the hostages. I can't understand how they don't realize that releasing hostages doesn't end the war. The only way the war ends is when Hamas is defeated and capitulates and is forced to unconditionally surrender. Ceasefire is only temporary calm until Hamas starts the next storm. Hamas understand very well how this game is played.

[Kismet]

Maybe they will bury her in the next couple days, prolong an investigation for months with little to no facts coming out, with hearing upon hearing of everyone that was supposedly in charge, scrub all social media and eave the globe with no answers. How convenient this makes world news after 6 hostages from Hamas die, with headlines prime the globe that she was killed by the 'supposedly' Israeli troops.

I'm missing something here - what exactly is your point and how would you want to proceed?

Killing hostages and protesters are both equally heinous to me (American or otherwise). I believe this is the third American citizen shot and killed by IDF soldiers recently. Seems State Department should act and request more information when ANY American citizen killed overseas.

Or Hamas release all the GD hostages, stop setting up camp and storing weapons in civilian locations like pu$$ies, stop the protesting about Free Palestine and pivot to protest Hamas for taking hostages in the first place, and for fuc(ing chit up and leave Israel the Eff alone. Sadly, war has a lot of collateral damage...I think we've seen this story the last 20 years of the GWOT....we screwed up plenty of our own vets, let alone all the Afghan families that supported us that were killed when we screwed up the Abbey Gate extraction by leaving biometrics for them to use

Seems like two different issues to me - I agree that Hamas are terrorists. They took the hostages for leverage and they are using them in that fashion. While it is a nice idea to wipe out Hamas - how realistic is that? What's the maximum downside to a temporary ceasefire to get some of the hostages released? It isn't my idea - Yoav Gallant - the defense minister and the MOSSAD both support it. Bibi's right wing allies don't - the same people who don't want to be conscripted to fight as they call for more warfare. They are also behind illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

As for the dead American citizen - in this case the IDF soldiers admitted they shot live rounds in response to civilians throwing stones and rocks at them. On a weapons continuum, are there not alternatives to using live ammunition against protesters who are unarmed?

I do acknowledge this is a tough situation but up to know neither side appears to have gained any significant advantage. Might it be time to try something else?

[cradleandshoot]

Maybe they will bury her in the next couple days, prolong an investigation for months with little to no facts coming out, with hearing upon hearing of everyone that was supposedly in charge, scrub all social media and eave the globe with no answers. How convenient this makes world news after 6 hostages from Hamas die, with headlines prime the globe that she was killed by the 'supposedly' Israeli troops.

I'm missing something here - what exactly is your point and how would you want to proceed?

Killing hostages and protesters are both equally heinous to me (American or otherwise). I believe this is the third American citizen shot and killed by IDF soldiers recently. Seems State Department should act and request more information when ANY American citizen killed overseas.

Or Hamas release all the GD hostages, stop setting up camp and storing weapons in civilian locations like pu$$ies, stop the protesting about Free Palestine and pivot to protest Hamas for taking hostages in the first place, and for fuc(ing chit up and leave Israel the Eff alone. Sadly, war has a lot of collateral damage...I think we've seen this story the last 20 years of the GWOT....we screwed up plenty of our own vets, let alone all the Afghan families that supported us that were killed when we screwed up the Abbey Gate extraction by leaving biometrics for them to use

Seems like two different issues to me - I agree that Hamas are terrorists. They took the hostages for leverage and they are using them in that fashion. While it is a nice idea to wipe out Hamas - how realistic is that? What's the maximum downside to a temporary ceasefire to get some of the hostages released? It isn't my idea - Yoav Gallant - the defense minister and the MOSSAD both support it. Bibi's right wing allies don't - the same people who don't want to be conscripted to fight as they call for more warfare. They are also behind illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

As for the dead American citizen - in this case the IDF soldiers admitted they shot live rounds in response to civilians throwing stones and rocks at them. On a weapons continuum, are there not alternatives to using live ammunition against protesters who are unarmed?

I do acknowledge this is a tough situation but up to know neither side appears to have gained any significant advantage. Might it be time to try something else?

You are correct it may not be possible to wipe them out. I believe the objective of Israel is the elimination of as much leadership as possible so they become ineffective in their objective.

[Kismet]

You are correct it may not be possible to wipe them out. I believe the objective of Israel is the elimination of as much leadership as possible so they become ineffective in their objective.

I don't think that is possible either. They have terminated a large number of their leaders and they have all been replaced.
They did manage to execute 6 hostages as IDF forces closed in on them.

[cradleandshoot]

You are correct it may not be possible to wipe them out. I believe the objective of Israel is the elimination of as much leadership as possible so they become ineffective in their objective.

I don't think that is possible either. They have terminated a large number of their leaders and they have all been replaced.
They did manage to execute 6 hostages as IDF forces closed in on them.

I believe if I have read correctly that Hamas has changed how they hold the hostages. They hold them in smaller groups and in locations where any rescue attempt becomes extremely problematic. I believe their new orders are to execute any hostages if they believe a rescue attempt is immenent. They are willing to play the waiting game knowing that Bibi is under enormous pressure to make a deal. I don't think that Bibi will ever cave. He is too stubborn to do so. He knows there is only one logical way to end this war and that is not with a ceasefire.

[youthathletics]

You are correct it may not be possible to wipe them out. I believe the objective of Israel is the elimination of as much leadership as possible so they become ineffective in their objective.

I don't think that is possible either. They have terminated a large number of their leaders and they have all been replaced.
They did manage to execute 6 hostages as IDF forces closed in on them.

I believe if I have read correctly that Hamas has changed how they hold the hostages. They hold them in smaller groups and in locations where any rescue attempt becomes extremely problematic. I believe their new orders are to execute any hostages if they believe a rescue attempt is immenent. They are willing to play the waiting game knowing that Bibi is under enormous pressure to make a deal. I don't think that Bibi will ever cave. He is too stubborn to do so. He knows there is only one logical way to end this war and that is not with a ceasefire.

Ironic how silent the rest of the world is, you’d think NATO would step in to show the world just how much value they add in global stabilization.

[cradleandshoot]

You are correct it may not be possible to wipe them out. I believe the objective of Israel is the elimination of as much leadership as possible so they become ineffective in their objective.

I don't think that is possible either. They have terminated a large number of their leaders and they have all been replaced.
They did manage to execute 6 hostages as IDF forces closed in on them.

I believe if I have read correctly that Hamas has changed how they hold the hostages. They hold them in smaller groups and in locations where any rescue attempt becomes extremely problematic. I believe their new orders are to execute any hostages if they believe a rescue attempt is immenent. They are willing to play the waiting game knowing that Bibi is under enormous pressure to make a deal. I don't think that Bibi will ever cave. He is too stubborn to do so. He knows there is only one logical way to end this war and that is not with a ceasefire.

Ironic how silent the rest of the world is, you’d think NATO would step in to show the world just how much value they add in global stabilization.

Those NATO peace keepers with the powder blue helmets do put the fear of God/Allah in the respective combatants.

[Kismet]

Those NATO peace keepers with the powder blue helmets do put the fear of God/Allah in the respective combatants.

Powder blue helmets are UN peacekeepers - not NATO

[Kismet]

You are correct it may not be possible to wipe them out. I believe the objective of Israel is the elimination of as much leadership as possible so they become ineffective in their objective.

I don't think that is possible either. They have terminated a large number of their leaders and they have all been replaced.
They did manage to execute 6 hostages as IDF forces closed in on them.

I believe if I have read correctly that Hamas has changed how they hold the hostages. They hold them in smaller groups and in locations where any rescue attempt becomes extremely problematic. I believe their new orders are to execute any hostages if they believe a rescue attempt is immenent. They are willing to play the waiting game knowing that Bibi is under enormous pressure to make a deal. I don't think that Bibi will ever cave. He is too stubborn to do so. He knows there is only one logical way to end this war and that is not with a ceasefire.

Ironic how silent the rest of the world is, you’d think NATO would step in to show the world just how much value they add in global stabilization.

NATO is a defensive alliance consisting of countries in Western Europe plus the USA.
USA (a NATO member) is up to its eyeballs in the ME. The Brits are also in the mix as well and I think there are various NATO naval assets in the Red Sea.

Earlier this year, NATO assumed command of U.S. and British Forces in Eastern Mediterranean.

https://www.navy.mil/Press-Office/News- ... terranean/

Bibi is beholden to his right wing coalition allies (who won't even volunteer to serve in the army BTW) to remain in power and out of jail.

[Typical Lax Dad]

NATO should send a US led coalition in to fight.

[PizzaSnake]

You are correct it may not be possible to wipe them out. I believe the objective of Israel is the elimination of as much leadership as possible so they become ineffective in their objective.

I don't think that is possible either. They have terminated a large number of their leaders and they have all been replaced.
They did manage to execute 6 hostages as IDF forces closed in on them.

I believe if I have read correctly that Hamas has changed how they hold the hostages. They hold them in smaller groups and in locations where any rescue attempt becomes extremely problematic. I believe their new orders are to execute any hostages if they believe a rescue attempt is immenent. They are willing to play the waiting game knowing that Bibi is under enormous pressure to make a deal. I don't think that Bibi will ever cave. He is too stubborn to do so. He knows there is only one logical way to end this war and that is not with a ceasefire.

Ironic how silent the rest of the world is, you’d think NATO would step in to show the world just how much value they add in global stabilization.

NATO is a defensive alliance consisting of countries in Western Europe plus the USA.
USA (a NATO member) is up to its eyeballs in the ME. The Brits are also in the mix as well and I think there are various NATO naval assets in the Red Sea.

Earlier this year, NATO assumed command of U.S. and British Forces in Eastern Mediterranean.

https://www.navy.mil/Press-Office/News- ... terranean/

Bibi is beholden to his right wing coalition allies (who won't even volunteer to serve in the army BTW) to remain in power and out of jail.

Feckless twats, all of them. Put up or shut up.

[OCanada]

You are correct it may not be possible to wipe them out. I believe the objective of Israel is the elimination of as much leadership as possible so they become ineffective in their objective.

I don't think that is possible either. They have terminated a large number of their leaders and they have all been replaced.
They did manage to execute 6 hostages as IDF forces closed in on them.

I believe if I have read correctly that Hamas has changed how they hold the hostages. They hold them in smaller groups and in locations where any rescue attempt becomes extremely problematic. I believe their new orders are to execute any hostages if they believe a rescue attempt is immenent. They are willing to play the waiting game knowing that Bibi is under enormous pressure to make a deal. I don't think that Bibi will ever cave. He is too stubborn to do so. He knows there is only one logical way to end this war and that is not with a ceasefire.

Ironic how silent the rest of the world is, you’d think NATO would step in to show the world just how much value they add in global stabilization.

NATO is a defensive alliance consisting of countries in Western Europe plus the USA.
USA (a NATO member) is up to its eyeballs in the ME. The Brits are also in the mix as well and I think there are various NATO naval assets in the Red Sea.

Earlier this year, NATO assumed command of U.S. and British Forces in Eastern Mediterranean.

https://www.navy.mil/Press-Office/News- ... terranean/

Bibi is beholden to his right wing coalition allies (who won't even volunteer to serve in the army BTW) to remain in power and out of jail.

Feckless twats, all of them. Put up or shut up.

Bibi holds power bcs the opposition is chaotic and won’t leave bcs he will be on trial as the corrupt pol that he is. I strongly suspect back channel discussions with Trump similar to those Reagan had with Iran. You don’t kill ideas.

Killing leaders is not going to achieve peace. The teo state solition always has been but as i wrote back in Oct Bengie and his supporters won’t allow it. It is all about the land

[cradleandshoot]

You are correct it may not be possible to wipe them out. I believe the objective of Israel is the elimination of as much leadership as possible so they become ineffective in their objective.

I don't think that is possible either. They have terminated a large number of their leaders and they have all been replaced.
They did manage to execute 6 hostages as IDF forces closed in on them.

I believe if I have read correctly that Hamas has changed how they hold the hostages. They hold them in smaller groups and in locations where any rescue attempt becomes extremely problematic. I believe their new orders are to execute any hostages if they believe a rescue attempt is immenent. They are willing to play the waiting game knowing that Bibi is under enormous pressure to make a deal. I don't think that Bibi will ever cave. He is too stubborn to do so. He knows there is only one logical way to end this war and that is not with a ceasefire.

Ironic how silent the rest of the world is, you’d think NATO would step in to show the world just how much value they add in global stabilization.

NATO is a defensive alliance consisting of countries in Western Europe plus the USA.
USA (a NATO member) is up to its eyeballs in the ME. The Brits are also in the mix as well and I think there are various NATO naval assets in the Red Sea.

Earlier this year, NATO assumed command of U.S. and British Forces in Eastern Mediterranean.

https://www.navy.mil/Press-Office/News- ... terranean/

Bibi is beholden to his right wing coalition allies (who won't even volunteer to serve in the army BTW) to remain in power and out of jail.

Feckless twats, all of them. Put up or shut up.

Bibi holds power bcs the opposition is chaotic and won’t leave bcs he will be on trial as the corrupt pol that he is. I strongly suspect back channel discussions with Trump similar to those Reagan had with Iran. You don’t kill ideas.

Killing leaders is not going to achieve peace. The teo state solition always has been but as i wrote back in Oct Bengie and his supporters won’t allow it. It is all about the land

Well Hamas has continued to advocate for the destruction of Israel. How do you negotiate with a perspective such as that? Judging by the actions that Hamas has taken they should be taken at their word. I believe Israel is and should be highly skeptical of ever negotiating with Hamas. I believe Hamas will never have any intention of negotiating in good faith.