2024

[Seacoaster(1)]

Union guy calls BS:

https://x.com/UnionProudUS/status/1823508721424822572

[a fan]

You really have trouble reading. I said that she knew what the gauntlet was but felt that she could pass through untouched because they were her fellow naval aviators.

You're FINALLY copping to Naval Aviators sexually assaulting women. And that you KNEW it was happening. And did nothing.

Got news for you: if I was in charge? YOU and every other Naval officer who knew what "the gauntlet" was.....and did nothing about it?

I would have fired you. On the spot.

Just as I would fire any of my civilian employees if they did the same stupid, weeners-out idiocy to their fellow employees.

You're acting like the stereotypical "blame the victim" guy. "She had it coming". "Look at what she was wearing".

And you're on here, telling us earlier that Naval Aviators didn't assault women....when above, you tell us that's what they did DIRECTLY.

This is what systemic misogony looks like. And how freaking sad is it that the pilots knew to send their wives home BEFORE "the gauntlet".

And you answered my question finally: no, you would NOT let your wife run the gauntlet.



Well, at least I got my education on the subject. I'm thrilled that Pat Schroeder took out some officers. Pretty clear she should have taken out more of those who encouraged this stuff...by sitting around and doing nothing about "the gauntlet", knowing that Pilots were sexually assaulting women.

Treatment they wouldn't allow for their own wives, of course. But the "other women" were fair game. Classy stuff.

[old salt]

More DEI problems…

https://www.military.com/daily-news/202 ... g-app.html

Sick twist. 61 yr old O-4. When asked if a pilot --"works in aviation"
Most likely former enlisted maintainer promoted as a Limited Duty Officer.
He would not have scored at Tailhook. Not a Naval Avaiator.

[old salt]

You really have trouble reading. I said that she knew what the gauntlet was but felt that she could pass through untouched because they were her fellow naval aviators.

You're FINALLY copping to Naval Aviators sexually assaulting women. And that you KNEW it was happening. And did nothing.

Got news for you: if I was in charge? YOU and every other Naval officer who knew what "the gauntlet" was.....and did nothing about it?

I would have fired you. On the spot.

Just as I would fire any of my civilian employees if they did the same stupid, weeners-out idiocy to their fellow employees.

You're acting like the stereotypical "blame the victim" guy. "She had it coming". "Look at what she was wearing".

And you're on here, telling us earlier that Naval Aviators didn't assault women....when above, you tell us that's what they did DIRECTLY.

This is what systemic misogony looks like. And how freaking sad is it that the pilots knew to send their wives home BEFORE "the gauntlet".

And you answered my question finally: no, you would NOT let your wife run the gauntlet.

Well, at least I got my education on the subject. I'm thrilled that Pat Schroeder took out some officers. Pretty clear she should have taken out more of those who encouraged this stuff...by sitting around and doing nothing about "the gauntlet", knowing that Pilots were sexually assaulting women.

Treatment they wouldn't allow for their own wives, of course. But the "other women" were fair game. Classy stuff.

...I didn't even know the gauntlet existed until Tailhook '91, then we all got a detailed education about it.

Even though 3 junior officer pilots who worked for me attended. I told them to stay out of trouble. They did.
Even though they were interrogated & intimidated, they were not implicated.
The same with all the other attendees from Pax River who attended. All interrogated & intimidated, none implicated.
Our Admiral was scapegoated. His aide became a celebrity & multi-millionaire celebrity advocate.
Pat Schroeder held up the promotion of every officer who attended. Soviet style tactics, that failed.
CO was the right state for her to represent.

[Typical Lax Dad]

More DEI problems…

https://www.military.com/daily-news/202 ... g-app.html

Sick twist. 61 yr old O-4. When asked if a pilot --"works in aviation"
Most likely former enlisted maintainer promoted as a Limited Duty Officer.
He would not have scored at Tailhook. Not a Naval Avaiator.

[Typical Lax Dad]

You really have trouble reading. I said that she knew what the gauntlet was but felt that she could pass through untouched because they were her fellow naval aviators.

You're FINALLY copping to Naval Aviators sexually assaulting women. And that you KNEW it was happening. And did nothing.

Got news for you: if I was in charge? YOU and every other Naval officer who knew what "the gauntlet" was.....and did nothing about it?

I would have fired you. On the spot.

Just as I would fire any of my civilian employees if they did the same stupid, weeners-out idiocy to their fellow employees.

You're acting like the stereotypical "blame the victim" guy. "She had it coming". "Look at what she was wearing".

And you're on here, telling us earlier that Naval Aviators didn't assault women....when above, you tell us that's what they did DIRECTLY.

This is what systemic misogony looks like. And how freaking sad is it that the pilots knew to send their wives home BEFORE "the gauntlet".

And you answered my question finally: no, you would NOT let your wife run the gauntlet.

Well, at least I got my education on the subject. I'm thrilled that Pat Schroeder took out some officers. Pretty clear she should have taken out more of those who encouraged this stuff...by sitting around and doing nothing about "the gauntlet", knowing that Pilots were sexually assaulting women.

Treatment they wouldn't allow for their own wives, of course. But the "other women" were fair game. Classy stuff.

...I didn't even know the gauntlet existed until Tailhook '91, then we all got a detailed education about it.

Even though 3 junior officer pilots who worked for me attended. I told them to stay out of trouble. They did.
Even though they were interrogated & intimidated, they were not implicated.
The same with all the other attendees from Pax River who attended. All interrogated & intimidated, none implicated.
Our Admiral was scapegoated. His aide became a celebrity & multi-millionaire celebrity advocate.
Pat Schroeder held up the promotion of every officer who attended. Soviet style tactics, that failed.
CO was the right state for her to represent.

So you knew there was trouble?

[MDlaxfan76]

You really have trouble reading. I said that she knew what the gauntlet was but felt that she could pass through untouched because they were her fellow naval aviators.

You're FINALLY copping to Naval Aviators sexually assaulting women. And that you KNEW it was happening. And did nothing.

Got news for you: if I was in charge? YOU and every other Naval officer who knew what "the gauntlet" was.....and did nothing about it?

I would have fired you. On the spot.

Just as I would fire any of my civilian employees if they did the same stupid, weeners-out idiocy to their fellow employees.

You're acting like the stereotypical "blame the victim" guy. "She had it coming". "Look at what she was wearing".

And you're on here, telling us earlier that Naval Aviators didn't assault women....when above, you tell us that's what they did DIRECTLY.

This is what systemic misogony looks like. And how freaking sad is it that the pilots knew to send their wives home BEFORE "the gauntlet".

And you answered my question finally: no, you would NOT let your wife run the gauntlet.

Well, at least I got my education on the subject. I'm thrilled that Pat Schroeder took out some officers. Pretty clear she should have taken out more of those who encouraged this stuff...by sitting around and doing nothing about "the gauntlet", knowing that Pilots were sexually assaulting women.

Treatment they wouldn't allow for their own wives, of course. But the "other women" were fair game. Classy stuff.

...I didn't even know the gauntlet existed until Tailhook '91, then we all got a detailed education about it.

Even though 3 junior officer pilots who worked for me attended. I told them to stay out of trouble. They did.
Even though they were interrogated & intimidated, they were not implicated.
The same with all the other attendees from Pax River who attended. All interrogated & intimidated, none implicated.
Our Admiral was scapegoated. His aide became a celebrity & multi-millionaire celebrity advocate.
Pat Schroeder held up the promotion of every officer who attended. Soviet style tactics, that failed.
CO was the right state for her to represent.

So you knew there was trouble?

Nah, Tailhook '91 was a unique, singular, heck, out of body, experience for a very few "Naval Aviators" who only admitted anything because they and others were intimidated. Nothing bad ever happened before or after. Pristine.

Admiral in chain of command involved with "cover-up" was "scapegoated"...and guys like Salty ended their careers voluntarily...was it that women were going to be flying in combat? Was it because the Navy wasn't going to put up with "trouble"? Just wasn't going to be as fun? Or was it because they were afraid the spotlight would turn on them next?

Was it because the public made assumptions about the complicity of people they never met because they didn't say exactly the right thing about women entering the military in greater numbers and in combat roles? Or because they were in the chain of command ???

[ggait]

Guys.

Take it to another thread please.

None of us care about tail hook whatev 30 years ago.

Thanks.

[Kismet]

Concur - we are talking 30+ years ago - Rep. Schroeder is DEAD for chrissake.

But Saltine isn't the type to let this go. Look at all the other threads where he's done the same thing....like a dog with a bone.

Good luck getting this thread back on topic. With no rules to deal with this type of behavior - you are all going to have to learn to live with it because Salty is never going to give up on having the last word no matter how many more pages of this totally irrelevant discussion everyone is going to have to deal with.

[MDlaxfan76]

You really have trouble reading. I said that she knew what the gauntlet was but felt that she could pass through untouched because they were her fellow naval aviators.

You're FINALLY copping to Naval Aviators sexually assaulting women. And that you KNEW it was happening. And did nothing.

Got news for you: if I was in charge? YOU and every other Naval officer who knew what "the gauntlet" was.....and did nothing about it?

I would have fired you. On the spot.

Just as I would fire any of my civilian employees if they did the same stupid, weeners-out idiocy to their fellow employees.

You're acting like the stereotypical "blame the victim" guy. "She had it coming". "Look at what she was wearing".

And you're on here, telling us earlier that Naval Aviators didn't assault women....when above, you tell us that's what they did DIRECTLY.

This is what systemic misogony looks like. And how freaking sad is it that the pilots knew to send their wives home BEFORE "the gauntlet".

And you answered my question finally: no, you would NOT let your wife run the gauntlet.

Well, at least I got my education on the subject. I'm thrilled that Pat Schroeder took out some officers. Pretty clear she should have taken out more of those who encouraged this stuff...by sitting around and doing nothing about "the gauntlet", knowing that Pilots were sexually assaulting women.

Treatment they wouldn't allow for their own wives, of course. But the "other women" were fair game. Classy stuff.

...I didn't even know the gauntlet existed until Tailhook '91, then we all got a detailed education about it.

Even though 3 junior officer pilots who worked for me attended. I told them to stay out of trouble. They did.
Even though they were interrogated & intimidated, they were not implicated.
The same with all the other attendees from Pax River who attended. All interrogated & intimidated, none implicated.
Our Admiral was scapegoated. His aide became a celebrity & multi-millionaire celebrity advocate.
Pat Schroeder held up the promotion of every officer who attended. Soviet style tactics, that failed.
CO was the right state for her to represent.

Hang on, if you didn't know about the "gauntlet" how was this fellow Naval Aviator supposed to have known about it? How was she supposed to know that if she went on that floor she would be groped and thrown to the floor by a bunch of drooling Navy and Marine officers? How was she supposed to factor in that "risk assessment"?

Nope, you and ever other Naval Aviator, including your chain of command, knew that there was lots of "lewd behavior" at Tailhook, but the target of such had previously been women not in the military, who had no standing as fellow officers. They were "asking for it" and had no outlet in the chain of command. But this gal did, and tried to report, but the cover-up was extensive...

This is rampant sexism and misogyny, a devaluing of women flat out and obvious.

But this wasn't unique to the military, as I've previously said...it was an all of society issue. Still is, though some improvement.

But chain of command hierarchies have the dark side of bureaucratic cover-ups that resist change.

[MDlaxfan76]

Guys.

Take it to another thread please.

None of us care about tail hook whatev 30 years ago.

Thanks.

Sorry, I just added to this...ok, let me just say that the relevance of this discussion at all is that the attitudes being expressed are endemic to why some people flock to someone like Trump, excuse his behaviors because they favor his "policies", and are in abject denial of the importance of issues of his character. And are then willing to absolutely gaslight any opponent, however much more honorable than Trump.

2024.

[old salt]

You really have trouble reading. I said that she knew what the gauntlet was but felt that she could pass through untouched because they were her fellow naval aviators.

You're FINALLY copping to Naval Aviators sexually assaulting women. And that you KNEW it was happening. And did nothing.

Got news for you: if I was in charge? YOU and every other Naval officer who knew what "the gauntlet" was.....and did nothing about it?

I would have fired you. On the spot.

Just as I would fire any of my civilian employees if they did the same stupid, weeners-out idiocy to their fellow employees.

You're acting like the stereotypical "blame the victim" guy. "She had it coming". "Look at what she was wearing".

And you're on here, telling us earlier that Naval Aviators didn't assault women....when above, you tell us that's what they did DIRECTLY.

This is what systemic misogony looks like. And how freaking sad is it that the pilots knew to send their wives home BEFORE "the gauntlet".

And you answered my question finally: no, you would NOT let your wife run the gauntlet.

Well, at least I got my education on the subject. I'm thrilled that Pat Schroeder took out some officers. Pretty clear she should have taken out more of those who encouraged this stuff...by sitting around and doing nothing about "the gauntlet", knowing that Pilots were sexually assaulting women.

Treatment they wouldn't allow for their own wives, of course. But the "other women" were fair game. Classy stuff.

...I didn't even know the gauntlet existed until Tailhook '91, then we all got a detailed education about it.

Even though 3 junior officer pilots who worked for me attended. I told them to stay out of trouble. They did.
Even though they were interrogated & intimidated, they were not implicated.
The same with all the other attendees from Pax River who attended. All interrogated & intimidated, none implicated.
Our Admiral was scapegoated. His aide became a celebrity & multi-millionaire celebrity advocate.
Pat Schroeder held up the promotion of every officer who attended. Soviet style tactics, that failed.
CO was the right state for her to represent.

So you knew there was trouble?

They were going to Vegas.

[Typical Lax Dad]

You really have trouble reading. I said that she knew what the gauntlet was but felt that she could pass through untouched because they were her fellow naval aviators.

You're FINALLY copping to Naval Aviators sexually assaulting women. And that you KNEW it was happening. And did nothing.

Got news for you: if I was in charge? YOU and every other Naval officer who knew what "the gauntlet" was.....and did nothing about it?

I would have fired you. On the spot.

Just as I would fire any of my civilian employees if they did the same stupid, weeners-out idiocy to their fellow employees.

You're acting like the stereotypical "blame the victim" guy. "She had it coming". "Look at what she was wearing".

And you're on here, telling us earlier that Naval Aviators didn't assault women....when above, you tell us that's what they did DIRECTLY.

This is what systemic misogony looks like. And how freaking sad is it that the pilots knew to send their wives home BEFORE "the gauntlet".

And you answered my question finally: no, you would NOT let your wife run the gauntlet.

Well, at least I got my education on the subject. I'm thrilled that Pat Schroeder took out some officers. Pretty clear she should have taken out more of those who encouraged this stuff...by sitting around and doing nothing about "the gauntlet", knowing that Pilots were sexually assaulting women.

Treatment they wouldn't allow for their own wives, of course. But the "other women" were fair game. Classy stuff.

...I didn't even know the gauntlet existed until Tailhook '91, then we all got a detailed education about it.

Even though 3 junior officer pilots who worked for me attended. I told them to stay out of trouble. They did.
Even though they were interrogated & intimidated, they were not implicated.
The same with all the other attendees from Pax River who attended. All interrogated & intimidated, none implicated.
Our Admiral was scapegoated. His aide became a celebrity & multi-millionaire celebrity advocate.
Pat Schroeder held up the promotion of every officer who attended. Soviet style tactics, that failed.
CO was the right state for her to represent.

So you knew there was trouble?

They were going to Vegas.

I knew that would be your answer.

[Typical Lax Dad]

More lying by Old Salt…In a leadership role but didn’t know what was going on.

The Tailhook Association is a private, nonprofit organization whose mission is to “foster, encourage, study, develop, and support the aircraft carrier, sea-based aircraft, both fixed and rotary wing, and aircrew.” Association support includes educating the public about carrier aviation, a mission of critical importance to a maritime power. The Tailhook Association’s 15,000-plus members include active-duty, reserve, and retired naval aviators and aircrew, their support personnel, contractors in carrier aviation-related industries, and others interested in naval aviation. In addition to hosting its annual symposium, it publishes The Hook—a magazine covering contemporary and historical carrier aviation, which enjoys an excellent reputation—and awards educational scholarships.

The first Tailhook Reunion was at Rosarito Beach, Baja California, in 1956. It moved to San Diego in 1958 and to Las Vegas in 1963. From its earliest days, the Tailhook Reunion enjoyed a reputation for having a “wild streak”; it was asked not to return to one Las Vegas hotel because of rowdyism, and it moved to the Las Vegas Hilton around 1975. The larger size of Las Vegas casino hotels was a consideration, but the Las Vegas party atmosphere was—and was intended to be—a major draw, particularly for junior officers. That Tailhook was quite distant from any Navy or Marine Corps flagpole lent toleration—if not encouragement—to a certain level of misbehavior, particularly on the final night of the symposium.

Originally, defense contractors provided hospitality suites for attendees to meet and socialize. This changed in the late 1970s with the promulgation of standards-of-conduct legislation and directives governing the relationship between the defense industry and Department of Defense (DoD) personnel, uniformed and civilian. Thereafter, individual squadrons or commands sponsored hospitality suites.

The Tailhook Association played an important role in arranging squadron or command hospitality suites. As the association arranged its meeting, it “brokered” hospitality suites with interested commands. Conduct—or misconduct, including damage—in the suites was the responsibility of each suite sponsor. The association accepted (but did not necessarily assume) responsibility for damage to common areas. Control of individual behavior was the responsibility of the Hilton and active-duty and reserve Navy and Marine Corps senior officers. As a private organization, the Tailhook Association lacked authority to control the behavior of attendees. By the widest margin, the primary responsibility for ensuring good order and discipline lay with the naval services and their leadership.

On the other hand, the Tailhook Association (membership and board of directors) is made up of active-duty, reserve, and retired military personnel, and it possessed the knowledge and ability to bring individual misconduct requiring correction to the attention of proper authorities. This is an organization of individuals accustomed to order and discipline, including an obligation to correct misconduct when observed. Other private organizations with ties to naval aviation—the Association of Naval Aviation, the Naval Aviation Museum Foundation, and the Naval Institute—host symposia that do not degenerate into rowdy fraternity parties.

The Tailhook Association was regarded by the senior Navy leadership as an integral part of naval aviation. Until Secretary of the Navy H. Lawrence Garrett III severed Department of the Navy support for the association after revelations of Tailhook ’91, its offices were at the Miramar Naval Air Station in southern California. Each year’s symposium was planned in close coordination with the Deputy Chief of Naval Operations for Air Warfare (DCNO [Air]). The Tailhook Association was as much—and perhaps more—a Navy-run booster group for carrier aviation as a private organization depending upon the Navy for support.

Over the years, the symposium’s daytime program became increasingly professional. But Friday and Saturday night misbehavior also increased. It appeared to reach a peak in 1986, undoubtedly as a result of the living-on-the-edge image of naval aviators projected in the highly popular movie Top Gun. In 1986, and in other symposia prior to 1991, however, the leading problems were excessive alcohol consumption, fistfights, and property damage, rather than sexual misconduct.

After Tailhook ’86, naval aviation’s leaders weighed in, expressing their concern that support for the annual symposium—including use of naval aircraft to transport attendees—would have to be curtailed unless conduct improved. Identifying lack of command attention as a primary cause, the association took what it regarded to be appropriate steps, limiting the number of hospitality suites, blacklisting “bad” commands, and issuing warnings to commanding officers of squadrons that had caused problems. The association president, in close coordination with the DCNO (Air), issued a letter to every hospitality suite squadron commander and hospitality suite coordinator, reminding them of their responsibility for maintaining order within their suites. The letter preceding Tailhook ’91, mailed 15 August 1991, included the following language:

n the past we have had a problem with late night “gang mentality.” If you see this type of behavior going on, please make an effort to curtail it either by saying something, calling security, or contacting someone from the Association. We will have people on the floor in blue committee shirts should you need them for any reason.
There was a clear recognition of responsibility for control over conduct by the Tailhook Association and the senior naval leadership.

Nearly all took this admonition to heart. For example, in addition to ensuring the presence of a duty officer at all times, one commander required that his officers forgo shorts, t-shirts, and shower shoes for slacks and squadron shirts after 1700, to establish a more professional atmosphere. An indication of this attention to order and discipline is that of the 22 hospitality suites at Tailhook ’91, only four were identified by investigators as scenes of misconduct, major or minor.

Nevertheless, Friday night remained a big party, and Saturday night an even bigger one, drawing aviators and other personnel from all services (many were unregistered attendees of only the third-floor parties, which were open to the public) and carrier aviation wannabees and groupies, as well as any number of Las Vegas residents and other visitors who simply recognized a good party when they saw or learned of it.

[old salt]

More lying by Old Salt…In a leadership role but didn’t know what was going on.

The Tailhook Association is a private, nonprofit organization whose mission is to “foster, encourage, study, develop, and support the aircraft carrier, sea-based aircraft, both fixed and rotary wing, and aircrew.” Association support includes educating the public about carrier aviation, a mission of critical importance to a maritime power. The Tailhook Association’s 15,000-plus members include active-duty, reserve, and retired naval aviators and aircrew, their support personnel, contractors in carrier aviation-related industries, and others interested in naval aviation. In addition to hosting its annual symposium, it publishes The Hook—a magazine covering contemporary and historical carrier aviation, which enjoys an excellent reputation—and awards educational scholarships.

The first Tailhook Reunion was at Rosarito Beach, Baja California, in 1956. It moved to San Diego in 1958 and to Las Vegas in 1963. From its earliest days, the Tailhook Reunion enjoyed a reputation for having a “wild streak”; it was asked not to return to one Las Vegas hotel because of rowdyism, and it moved to the Las Vegas Hilton around 1975. The larger size of Las Vegas casino hotels was a consideration, but the Las Vegas party atmosphere was—and was intended to be—a major draw, particularly for junior officers. That Tailhook was quite distant from any Navy or Marine Corps flagpole lent toleration—if not encouragement—to a certain level of misbehavior, particularly on the final night of the symposium.

Originally, defense contractors provided hospitality suites for attendees to meet and socialize. This changed in the late 1970s with the promulgation of standards-of-conduct legislation and directives governing the relationship between the defense industry and Department of Defense (DoD) personnel, uniformed and civilian. Thereafter, individual squadrons or commands sponsored hospitality suites.

The Tailhook Association played an important role in arranging squadron or command hospitality suites. As the association arranged its meeting, it “brokered” hospitality suites with interested commands. Conduct—or misconduct, including damage—in the suites was the responsibility of each suite sponsor. The association accepted (but did not necessarily assume) responsibility for damage to common areas. Control of individual behavior was the responsibility of the Hilton and active-duty and reserve Navy and Marine Corps senior officers. As a private organization, the Tailhook Association lacked authority to control the behavior of attendees. By the widest margin, the primary responsibility for ensuring good order and discipline lay with the naval services and their leadership.

On the other hand, the Tailhook Association (membership and board of directors) is made up of active-duty, reserve, and retired military personnel, and it possessed the knowledge and ability to bring individual misconduct requiring correction to the attention of proper authorities. This is an organization of individuals accustomed to order and discipline, including an obligation to correct misconduct when observed. Other private organizations with ties to naval aviation—the Association of Naval Aviation, the Naval Aviation Museum Foundation, and the Naval Institute—host symposia that do not degenerate into rowdy fraternity parties.

The Tailhook Association was regarded by the senior Navy leadership as an integral part of naval aviation. Until Secretary of the Navy H. Lawrence Garrett III severed Department of the Navy support for the association after revelations of Tailhook ’91, its offices were at the Miramar Naval Air Station in southern California. Each year’s symposium was planned in close coordination with the Deputy Chief of Naval Operations for Air Warfare (DCNO [Air]). The Tailhook Association was as much—and perhaps more—a Navy-run booster group for carrier aviation as a private organization depending upon the Navy for support.

Over the years, the symposium’s daytime program became increasingly professional. But Friday and Saturday night misbehavior also increased. It appeared to reach a peak in 1986, undoubtedly as a result of the living-on-the-edge image of naval aviators projected in the highly popular movie Top Gun. In 1986, and in other symposia prior to 1991, however, the leading problems were excessive alcohol consumption, fistfights, and property damage, rather than sexual misconduct.

After Tailhook ’86, naval aviation’s leaders weighed in, expressing their concern that support for the annual symposium—including use of naval aircraft to transport attendees—would have to be curtailed unless conduct improved. Identifying lack of command attention as a primary cause, the association took what it regarded to be appropriate steps, limiting the number of hospitality suites, blacklisting “bad” commands, and issuing warnings to commanding officers of squadrons that had caused problems. The association president, in close coordination with the DCNO (Air), issued a letter to every hospitality suite squadron commander and hospitality suite coordinator, reminding them of their responsibility for maintaining order within their suites. The letter preceding Tailhook ’91, mailed 15 August 1991, included the following language:

n the past we have had a problem with late night “gang mentality.” If you see this type of behavior going on, please make an effort to curtail it either by saying something, calling security, or contacting someone from the Association. We will have people on the floor in blue committee shirts should you need them for any reason.
There was a clear recognition of responsibility for control over conduct by the Tailhook Association and the senior naval leadership.

Nearly all took this admonition to heart. For example, in addition to ensuring the presence of a duty officer at all times, one commander required that his officers forgo shorts, t-shirts, and shower shoes for slacks and squadron shirts after 1700, to establish a more professional atmosphere. An indication of this attention to order and discipline is that of the 22 hospitality suites at Tailhook ’91, only four were identified by investigators as scenes of misconduct, major or minor.

Nevertheless, Friday night remained a big party, and Saturday night an even bigger one, drawing aviators and other personnel from all services (many were unregistered attendees of only the third-floor parties, which were open to the public) and carrier aviation wannabees and groupies, as well as any number of Las Vegas residents and other visitors who simply recognized a good party when they saw or learned of it.

As I said -- I never attended Tailhook, never joined the Tailhook assn. I joined the Naval Helicopter Assn & attended our annual conventions. without incident or controversy.

[Seacoaster(1)]

Watch:

https://twitter.com/TheTNHoller/status/ ... 2634184121

[Typical Lax Dad]

More lying by Old Salt…In a leadership role but didn’t know what was going on.

The Tailhook Association is a private, nonprofit organization whose mission is to “foster, encourage, study, develop, and support the aircraft carrier, sea-based aircraft, both fixed and rotary wing, and aircrew.” Association support includes educating the public about carrier aviation, a mission of critical importance to a maritime power. The Tailhook Association’s 15,000-plus members include active-duty, reserve, and retired naval aviators and aircrew, their support personnel, contractors in carrier aviation-related industries, and others interested in naval aviation. In addition to hosting its annual symposium, it publishes The Hook—a magazine covering contemporary and historical carrier aviation, which enjoys an excellent reputation—and awards educational scholarships.

The first Tailhook Reunion was at Rosarito Beach, Baja California, in 1956. It moved to San Diego in 1958 and to Las Vegas in 1963. From its earliest days, the Tailhook Reunion enjoyed a reputation for having a “wild streak”; it was asked not to return to one Las Vegas hotel because of rowdyism, and it moved to the Las Vegas Hilton around 1975. The larger size of Las Vegas casino hotels was a consideration, but the Las Vegas party atmosphere was—and was intended to be—a major draw, particularly for junior officers. That Tailhook was quite distant from any Navy or Marine Corps flagpole lent toleration—if not encouragement—to a certain level of misbehavior, particularly on the final night of the symposium.

Originally, defense contractors provided hospitality suites for attendees to meet and socialize. This changed in the late 1970s with the promulgation of standards-of-conduct legislation and directives governing the relationship between the defense industry and Department of Defense (DoD) personnel, uniformed and civilian. Thereafter, individual squadrons or commands sponsored hospitality suites.

The Tailhook Association played an important role in arranging squadron or command hospitality suites. As the association arranged its meeting, it “brokered” hospitality suites with interested commands. Conduct—or misconduct, including damage—in the suites was the responsibility of each suite sponsor. The association accepted (but did not necessarily assume) responsibility for damage to common areas. Control of individual behavior was the responsibility of the Hilton and active-duty and reserve Navy and Marine Corps senior officers. As a private organization, the Tailhook Association lacked authority to control the behavior of attendees. By the widest margin, the primary responsibility for ensuring good order and discipline lay with the naval services and their leadership.

On the other hand, the Tailhook Association (membership and board of directors) is made up of active-duty, reserve, and retired military personnel, and it possessed the knowledge and ability to bring individual misconduct requiring correction to the attention of proper authorities. This is an organization of individuals accustomed to order and discipline, including an obligation to correct misconduct when observed. Other private organizations with ties to naval aviation—the Association of Naval Aviation, the Naval Aviation Museum Foundation, and the Naval Institute—host symposia that do not degenerate into rowdy fraternity parties.

The Tailhook Association was regarded by the senior Navy leadership as an integral part of naval aviation. Until Secretary of the Navy H. Lawrence Garrett III severed Department of the Navy support for the association after revelations of Tailhook ’91, its offices were at the Miramar Naval Air Station in southern California. Each year’s symposium was planned in close coordination with the Deputy Chief of Naval Operations for Air Warfare (DCNO [Air]). The Tailhook Association was as much—and perhaps more—a Navy-run booster group for carrier aviation as a private organization depending upon the Navy for support.

Over the years, the symposium’s daytime program became increasingly professional. But Friday and Saturday night misbehavior also increased. It appeared to reach a peak in 1986, undoubtedly as a result of the living-on-the-edge image of naval aviators projected in the highly popular movie Top Gun. In 1986, and in other symposia prior to 1991, however, the leading problems were excessive alcohol consumption, fistfights, and property damage, rather than sexual misconduct.

After Tailhook ’86, naval aviation’s leaders weighed in, expressing their concern that support for the annual symposium—including use of naval aircraft to transport attendees—would have to be curtailed unless conduct improved. Identifying lack of command attention as a primary cause, the association took what it regarded to be appropriate steps, limiting the number of hospitality suites, blacklisting “bad” commands, and issuing warnings to commanding officers of squadrons that had caused problems. The association president, in close coordination with the DCNO (Air), issued a letter to every hospitality suite squadron commander and hospitality suite coordinator, reminding them of their responsibility for maintaining order within their suites. The letter preceding Tailhook ’91, mailed 15 August 1991, included the following language:

n the past we have had a problem with late night “gang mentality.” If you see this type of behavior going on, please make an effort to curtail it either by saying something, calling security, or contacting someone from the Association. We will have people on the floor in blue committee shirts should you need them for any reason.
There was a clear recognition of responsibility for control over conduct by the Tailhook Association and the senior naval leadership.

Nearly all took this admonition to heart. For example, in addition to ensuring the presence of a duty officer at all times, one commander required that his officers forgo shorts, t-shirts, and shower shoes for slacks and squadron shirts after 1700, to establish a more professional atmosphere. An indication of this attention to order and discipline is that of the 22 hospitality suites at Tailhook ’91, only four were identified by investigators as scenes of misconduct, major or minor.

Nevertheless, Friday night remained a big party, and Saturday night an even bigger one, drawing aviators and other personnel from all services (many were unregistered attendees of only the third-floor parties, which were open to the public) and carrier aviation wannabees and groupies, as well as any number of Las Vegas residents and other visitors who simply recognized a good party when they saw or learned of it.

As I said -- I never attended Tailhook, never joined the Tailhook assn. I joined the Naval Helicopter Assn & attended our annual conventions. without incident or controversy.

You don’t know about anything unless you have direct experience….stop lying. Seems like a lot of people knew about the rowdiness going as far back as 1986.

[old salt]

More lying by Old Salt…In a leadership role but didn’t know what was going on.

Nice history lesson. I was not privy to The Tailhook Assn guidance, having never attended or assigned to a Squadron that sponsored a suite.
In addition to joining the NHA & attending their conventions, I remain a member of the ANA --Assn of Naval Aviation.
Guilt by association. You're trying way too hard.

[Seacoaster(1)]

More:

https://twitter.com/RobertKennedyJr/sta ... 9159993751

[Kismet]

Fantastic = as predicted we now have TWO THREADS with folks yammering on this topic. Can everyone pick a thread and just use it going forward?