2024

The odds are excellent that you will leave this forum hating someone.
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WaffleTwineFaceoff
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Re: 2024

Post by WaffleTwineFaceoff »

a fan wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 9:55 pm
WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 4:51 pm https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis ... /600850577

Plus: Women's reproductive autonomy/health. K-12 meals.
Minus: Decide for yourself.
Skeleton: Old DWI arrest with perjury about being "deaf". Doing 95 in 55 zone. Failed field sobriety test and test in hospital. Sweetheart plea reduces charges to reckless driving. He was a high school teacher at the time. No excuses work for me. None. I have zero tolerance for America's lack of interest in addressing it's DWI epidemic/crisis (especially when the numbers of innocent victims killed by DWI violence averages 5,000/year in America, while the number of innocent victims killed by all rifles averages ~500/year in America). Another 8,000 DWI deaths (on top of that 5,000) are the drunk drivers who kill themselves.
Killed by "all rifles". That's quite the new statistical subcategory you've made up, my man. ;)
Straight from our government, my man. "All rifles" = Shotguns, bolt-action, semi-automatic. You're clever, search engine the classification. Hint: three letter agency. Fact: of homicide in America by all means (knives, fists/feet, bats, hammers, handguns, all rifles) year in and year out, the "all rifles" category usually clocks in at ~500 per year out of ~20k. :roll:
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it. John Stuart Mill On Liberty 1859
Farfromgeneva
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Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: 2024

Post by Farfromgeneva »

DMac wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 6:04 pm
WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 4:51 pm https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis ... /600850577

Plus: Women's reproductive autonomy/health. K-12 meals.
Minus: Decide for yourself.
Skeleton: Old DWI arrest with perjury about being "deaf". Doing 95 in 55 zone. Failed field sobriety test and test in hospital. Sweetheart plea reduces charges to reckless driving. He was a high school teacher at the time. No excuses work for me. None. I have zero tolerance for America's lack of interest in addressing it's DWI epidemic/crisis (especially when the numbers of innocent victims killed by DWI violence averages 5,000/year in America, while the number of innocent victims killed by all rifles averages ~500/year in America). Another 8,000 DWI deaths (on top of that 5,000) are the drunk drivers who kill themselves.
I'd like to know what percent of the adult population could tell of personal experience(s) with alcohol and poor judgement.
An experience I'm sure Malz is not proud of but not one that knocks him out of the box for me (or a whole lot of other people, I'd bet). I could match that story and up it one, I think. Miraculously my friend and I weren't both killed when I wrapped his Z28 around a tree I hit dead center. Alcohol, to the point I remember none of it. Nary a word of alcohol in any hospital or police reports. Was heading to Vietnam in a few days and was given some mighty generous consideration/understanding/instant forgiveness. That incident doesn't define me and I don't think Malz's does either.
Completely agree on alcohol-guns. Alcohol can be far more dangerous than guns and the numbers will bear that out.
For our fighting I’m with you again (as I did say in the past in general agreement).

I can’t even reply to that puritan bile on zero tolerance for a law and punishment driven by a small lout mother cohort (not all mothers) that scores cheap points for most politicians but is nowhere near proportionate or justice. You have a negative consequence there’s laws for that you could I guess maybe slap enhanced on top of a manslaughter or vandalism /destruction of meaningful property. I find the idea of criminalizing (driving penalties are civil) this so much their any consequences (for those who didn’t cause any harm or damage actually) foul and odious.

Nothing to defend doing it but punishing without damage is just wrong, stupid and punitive.
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23812
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Re: 2024

Post by Farfromgeneva »

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 6:57 pm
DMac wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 6:04 pm
WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 4:51 pm https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis ... /600850577

Plus: Women's reproductive autonomy/health. K-12 meals.
Minus: Decide for yourself.
Skeleton: Old DWI arrest with perjury about being "deaf". Doing 95 in 55 zone. Failed field sobriety test and test in hospital. Sweetheart plea reduces charges to reckless driving. He was a high school teacher at the time. No excuses work for me. None. I have zero tolerance for America's lack of interest in addressing it's DWI epidemic/crisis (especially when the numbers of innocent victims killed by DWI violence averages 5,000/year in America, while the number of innocent victims killed by all rifles averages ~500/year in America). Another 8,000 DWI deaths (on top of that 5,000) are the drunk drivers who kill themselves.
I'd like to know what percent of the adult population could tell of personal experience(s) with alcohol and poor judgement.
An experience I'm sure Malz is not proud of but not one that knocks him out of the box for me (or a whole lot of other people, I'd bet). I could match that story and up it one, I think. Miraculously my friend and I weren't both killed when I wrapped his Z28 around a tree I hit dead center. Alcohol, to the point I remember none of it. Nary a word of alcohol in any hospital or police reports. Was heading to Vietnam in a few days and was given some mighty generous consideration/understanding/instant forgiveness. That incident doesn't define me and I don't think Malz's does either.
Completely agree on alcohol-guns. Alcohol can be far more dangerous than guns and the numbers will bear that out.
Walz offered to resign from teaching, but the principal talked him out of it. He stopped drinking because of the incident. Pretty life changing moment - glad no one was hurt and he learned from it.

Had a friend wrap his car around a pretty small tree. Killed his best friend in the passenger seat (another friend of mine). They were 19 and drunk, home from college. We were baseball teammates and in scouts together growing up. Driver is still pretty messed up mentally decades later.

Not sure why W-T-F brought guns into it, but we can walk and chew gum and address both separately. Would be nice if weed were legal and alcohol was a lot harder to get as alcohol is a big problem. Don't see too many angry stoners starting fights or getting in tons of wrecks. Luckily the younger generations aren't drinking as much.
I’ve shared I took a month retreat to leave about myself and was surprised to see about 2/3 were there for alcohol. Wild stories. Folks would buy pony bottles on wya home form work with rotations do stores so none would see them too regularly etc. crazy. I thought there’d be more meth, heroin, opioids etc. alcohol is the real problem and AA is not a broad based solution I know from learning the system. Most folks had the reaction to my concerns for being there similar to what Dave Chappelle got for going to a meeting for weed: https://youtu.be/uUPHlAbAf2I?si=3If4xHhFZwLBslV-
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
Farfromgeneva
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Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: 2024

Post by Farfromgeneva »

WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 10:43 pm
a fan wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 9:55 pm
WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 4:51 pm https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis ... /600850577

Plus: Women's reproductive autonomy/health. K-12 meals.
Minus: Decide for yourself.
Skeleton: Old DWI arrest with perjury about being "deaf". Doing 95 in 55 zone. Failed field sobriety test and test in hospital. Sweetheart plea reduces charges to reckless driving. He was a high school teacher at the time. No excuses work for me. None. I have zero tolerance for America's lack of interest in addressing it's DWI epidemic/crisis (especially when the numbers of innocent victims killed by DWI violence averages 5,000/year in America, while the number of innocent victims killed by all rifles averages ~500/year in America). Another 8,000 DWI deaths (on top of that 5,000) are the drunk drivers who kill themselves.
Killed by "all rifles". That's quite the new statistical subcategory you've made up, my man. ;)
Straight from our government, my man. "All rifles" = Shotguns, bolt-action, semi-automatic. You're clever, search engine the classification. Hint: three letter agency. Fact: of homicide in America by all means (knives, fists/feet, bats, hammers, handguns, all rifles) year in and year out, the "all rifles" category usually clocks in at ~500 per year out of ~20k. :roll:
There were nearly 50,000 gun related deaths in 2021 per CDC (48k+ was the number)

But I realize I’m dealing with Peter brown heuristics here even though I swear I saw a claim to never come back and epic whine. Not going to engage in a DTA game back and forth and waste my time while you play the game for fun and waste others time.
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
a fan
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Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: 2024

Post by a fan »

WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 10:43 pm
a fan wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 9:55 pm
WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 4:51 pm https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis ... /600850577

Plus: Women's reproductive autonomy/health. K-12 meals.
Minus: Decide for yourself.
Skeleton: Old DWI arrest with perjury about being "deaf". Doing 95 in 55 zone. Failed field sobriety test and test in hospital. Sweetheart plea reduces charges to reckless driving. He was a high school teacher at the time. No excuses work for me. None. I have zero tolerance for America's lack of interest in addressing it's DWI epidemic/crisis (especially when the numbers of innocent victims killed by DWI violence averages 5,000/year in America, while the number of innocent victims killed by all rifles averages ~500/year in America). Another 8,000 DWI deaths (on top of that 5,000) are the drunk drivers who kill themselves.
Killed by "all rifles". That's quite the new statistical subcategory you've made up, my man. ;)
Straight from our government, my man. "All rifles" = Shotguns, bolt-action, semi-automatic. You're clever, search engine the classification. Hint: three letter agency. Fact: of homicide in America by all means (knives, fists/feet, bats, hammers, handguns, all rifles) year in and year out, the "all rifles" category usually clocks in at ~500 per year out of ~20k. :roll:
:lol: So....intentionally omit handguns, and hope no one notices? Come on, man.

And it was 40K gun deaths last year, btw.

You can make your points here without the absurd spin. NO ONE here wants to take away your guns, my man.
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old salt
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Re: 2024

Post by old salt »

Kismet wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 6:07 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 4:55 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 12:15 pm Salty, what think you on this?
24 years in National Guard, small town raised, hunter, school teacher and football coach, won in a formerly Republican district, 12 years as a "work horse not show horse" in Congress working across lines, two time governor with over 60% approval rating...yeah, a progressive.
I agree with all that's been said about rising to the rank of Command Sergeant Major.
I'll point out that rising in the ranks of a state NG is highly influenced by state politics.
That's not a knock on Walz, rather a nod to his obvious political skills & likability.
I also like the fact that he was a HS FB Coach, social studies (history) teacher, & is a dog lover.
If I knew him personally, I'd probably consider him a good friend I could argue with, good naturedly, about policies.
He did not distinguish himself in dealing with the BLM riots. If any Governor knew when to call out the NG, it should have been him.
If he were at the top of the ticket you'd still never vote for him a a million years

Cheap shot at the Command Sergeant Major - especially galling from a military man such as yourself - denigrating the National Guard simultaneously.

The usual troll garbage from you - take a bow. :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
:shock: What is the cheap shot ? That's just a fact about the NG. They have a different chain of command than the active duty forces.
They only compete for promotion with fellow members of their state NG. A much smaller competitive pool than the entire active duty Army.
In the NG it's easier to be known throughout the state NG force than throughout the entire Army for active duty members. In some ways, that's a good thing. It's harder for a marginal performer to slip by. It was a compliment to Walz. To be an effective CSM, it helps to be politically adept & able to communicate with all levels of the chain of command. Walz served for 24 years & came up through the ranks based on his performance.

I recall you denigrating GW Bush for getting a fighter pilot slot in the TX ANG based on political connections, even though he completed flight training & served honorably. That's just an example of how politics can influence personnel decisions in the NG. Stick to topics you have experience with or know something about.

I never said I'd vote for Walz for President. I think his policies are WEIRD. I'm still favorably impressed by his personal story, resume, persona & sense of humor. Unlike you, I can still like people whom I disagree with politically & would not vote for.
Last edited by old salt on Wed Aug 07, 2024 1:15 am, edited 3 times in total.
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NattyBohChamps04
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Re: 2024

Post by NattyBohChamps04 »

Highlights for Kids. What's the differences between these two pictures?!

Image
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: 2024

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2024 12:51 am Highlights for Kids. What's the differences between these two pictures?!

Image
The lucky kids on the bottom get to work at the Hog De-Knuckler plant as young as 12?
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Kismet
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Re: 2024

Post by Kismet »

old salt wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2024 12:43 am :shock: What is the cheap shot ? That's just a fact about the NG. They have a different chain of command than the active duty forces.
They only compete for promotion with fellow members of their state NG. A much smaller competitive pool than the entire active duty Army.
In the NG it's easier to be known throughout the state NG force than throughout the entire Army for active duty members. In some ways, that's a good thing. It's harder for a marginal performer to slip by. It was a compliment to Walz. To be an effective CSM, it helps to be politically adept & able to communicate with all levels of the chain of command. Walz served for 24 years & came up through the ranks based on his performance.

I recall you denigrating GW Bush for getting a fighter pilot slot in the TX ANG based on political connections, even though he completed flight training & served honorably. That's just an example of how politics can influence personnel decisions in the NG. Stick to topics you have experience with or know something about.

I never said I'd vote for Walz for President. I think his policies are WEIRD. I'm still favorably impressed by his personal story, resume, persona & sense of humor. Unlike you, I can still like people whom I disagree with politically & would not vote for.
Like I said, the usual troll garbage from you including the fantasy discussion you claim to have had while you were swift-boating John Kerry. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: 2024

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

Kismet wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2024 6:22 am
old salt wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2024 12:43 am :shock: What is the cheap shot ? That's just a fact about the NG. They have a different chain of command than the active duty forces.
They only compete for promotion with fellow members of their state NG. A much smaller competitive pool than the entire active duty Army.
In the NG it's easier to be known throughout the state NG force than throughout the entire Army for active duty members. In some ways, that's a good thing. It's harder for a marginal performer to slip by. It was a compliment to Walz. To be an effective CSM, it helps to be politically adept & able to communicate with all levels of the chain of command. Walz served for 24 years & came up through the ranks based on his performance.

I recall you denigrating GW Bush for getting a fighter pilot slot in the TX ANG based on political connections, even though he completed flight training & served honorably. That's just an example of how politics can influence personnel decisions in the NG. Stick to topics you have experience with or know something about.

I never said I'd vote for Walz for President. I think his policies are WEIRD. I'm still favorably impressed by his personal story, resume, persona & sense of humor. Unlike you, I can still like people whom I disagree with politically & would not vote for.
Like I said, the usual troll garbage from you including the fantasy discussion you claim to have had while you were swift-boating John Kerry. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
So you do like Trump.
“I wish you would!”
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cradleandshoot
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Re: 2024

Post by cradleandshoot »

DMac wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 6:04 pm
WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 4:51 pm https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis ... /600850577

Plus: Women's reproductive autonomy/health. K-12 meals.
Minus: Decide for yourself.
Skeleton: Old DWI arrest with perjury about being "deaf". Doing 95 in 55 zone. Failed field sobriety test and test in hospital. Sweetheart plea reduces charges to reckless driving. He was a high school teacher at the time. No excuses work for me. None. I have zero tolerance for America's lack of interest in addressing it's DWI epidemic/crisis (especially when the numbers of innocent victims killed by DWI violence averages 5,000/year in America, while the number of innocent victims killed by all rifles averages ~500/year in America). Another 8,000 DWI deaths (on top of that 5,000) are the drunk drivers who kill themselves.
I'd like to know what percent of the adult population could tell of personal experience(s) with alcohol and poor judgement.
An experience I'm sure Malz is not proud of but not one that knocks him out of the box for me (or a whole lot of other people, I'd bet). I could match that story and up it one, I think. Miraculously my friend and I weren't both killed when I wrapped his Z28 around a tree I hit dead center. Alcohol, to the point I remember none of it. Nary a word of alcohol in any hospital or police reports. Was heading to Vietnam in a few days and was given some mighty generous consideration/understanding/instant forgiveness. That incident doesn't define me and I don't think Malz's does either.
Completely agree on alcohol-guns. Alcohol can be far more dangerous than guns and the numbers will bear that out.
I believe Teddy Kennedy had an unfortunate incident with alcohol and poor judgment. His poor judgment put the kibosh on his dream to be president. I wonder what MADD will have to say? Do they give him a pass?
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
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old salt
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Re: 2024

Post by old salt »

Kismet wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2024 6:22 am
old salt wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2024 12:43 am :shock: What is the cheap shot ? That's just a fact about the NG. They have a different chain of command than the active duty forces.
They only compete for promotion with fellow members of their state NG. A much smaller competitive pool than the entire active duty Army.
In the NG it's easier to be known throughout the state NG force than throughout the entire Army for active duty members. In some ways, that's a good thing. It's harder for a marginal performer to slip by. It was a compliment to Walz. To be an effective CSM, it helps to be politically adept & able to communicate with all levels of the chain of command. Walz served for 24 years & came up through the ranks based on his performance.

I recall you denigrating GW Bush for getting a fighter pilot slot in the TX ANG based on political connections, even though he completed flight training & served honorably. That's just an example of how politics can influence personnel decisions in the NG. Stick to topics you have experience with or know something about.

I never said I'd vote for Walz for President. I think his policies are WEIRD. I'm still favorably impressed by his personal story, resume, persona & sense of humor. Unlike you, I can still like people whom I disagree with politically & would not vote for.
Like I said, the usual troll garbage from you including the fantasy discussion you claim to have had while you were swift-boating John Kerry. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Unlike Kerry (& your senior Senator from CT), no Stolen Valor by Walz. He does not embellish, exaggerate or lie about the details of his military service. He's understated about it. He does not promote the idea that it's something more than it was. I admire him for that.
DMac
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Re: 2024

Post by DMac »

You've got to be a little careful here, shipmate, I clearly remember the Dubya military service discussion and it was likely I who was doing the "denigrating" re Bush's military service. I was brand new to computers, the reason I got one was because of LaxPower, someone had told me about it after I said something he said I should put on LaxPower. He showed me what it was and I thought this is a playground I want to play in, so I got one. Didn't know how to copy and paste and thought everyone here was a genius (I know how to google now too). You were mighty flowery about Bush and his military service (I get it now, he was a R) but I knew better. I did find an article about the outfit Bush was in along with other politician's and celebrity's sons. I hand wrote it on a legal pad then typed it onto LaxPower. It might not have been pretty but I got it on there. When I came back and looked at the post it had been all cleaned up...italicized, quotes, all prettied up and looking professional (pretty sure our boy b-aldo cleaned it all up because I know he liked what it said). This was a cush outfit that the privileged, rich, and connected went in. It was in '68, a brutal year here and in Vietnam (TET). You know as well as I do that the NG was a pretty safe place to fulfill your military obligation (draft was still on) with a next to nil likelihood of being shipped abroad (particularly to Vietnam). You didn't disagree with what I put up there at the time, really wasn't anyway to disagree. I like Dubya these days but to glorify his military service....nah, he took a pretty soft and safe path and in retrospect I can't say as I blame him. The NG was nothing like it is today, many saw it as a safe way out...including some of my friends who made it sound like they had gone through hell and back.
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cradleandshoot
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Re: 2024

Post by cradleandshoot »

old salt wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2024 12:43 am
Kismet wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 6:07 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 4:55 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 12:15 pm Salty, what think you on this?
24 years in National Guard, small town raised, hunter, school teacher and football coach, won in a formerly Republican district, 12 years as a "work horse not show horse" in Congress working across lines, two time governor with over 60% approval rating...yeah, a progressive.
I agree with all that's been said about rising to the rank of Command Sergeant Major.
I'll point out that rising in the ranks of a state NG is highly influenced by state politics.
That's not a knock on Walz, rather a nod to his obvious political skills & likability.
I also like the fact that he was a HS FB Coach, social studies (history) teacher, & is a dog lover.
If I knew him personally, I'd probably consider him a good friend I could argue with, good naturedly, about policies.
He did not distinguish himself in dealing with the BLM riots. If any Governor knew when to call out the NG, it should have been him.
If he were at the top of the ticket you'd still never vote for him a a million years

Cheap shot at the Command Sergeant Major - especially galling from a military man such as yourself - denigrating the National Guard simultaneously.

The usual troll garbage from you - take a bow. :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
:shock: What is the cheap shot ? That's just a fact about the NG. They have a different chain of command than the active duty forces.
They only compete for promotion with fellow members of their state NG. A much smaller competitive pool than the entire active duty Army.
In the NG it's easier to be known throughout the state NG force than throughout the entire Army for active duty members. In some ways, that's a good thing. It's harder for a marginal performer to slip by. It was a compliment to Walz. To be an effective CSM, it helps to be politically adept & able to communicate with all levels of the chain of command. Walz served for 24 years & came up through the ranks based on his performance.

I recall you denigrating GW Bush for getting a fighter pilot slot in the TX ANG based on political connections, even though he completed flight training & served honorably. That's just an example of how politics can influence personnel decisions in the NG. Stick to topics you have experience with or know something about.

I never said I'd vote for Walz for President. I think his policies are WEIRD. I'm still favorably impressed by his personal story, resume, persona & sense of humor. Unlike you, I can still like people whom I disagree with politically & would not vote for.
Throughout my 3 years in the 82nd Airborne we always chided the National Guard as " week end warriors" . There is a world of difference between regular army and national guard. The 82nd Airborne only had one CSM who was in charge of 3 very elite brigades. I have no idea in the Minnesota NG how their CoC decides on promotion to top leadership NCO positions. Normally that includes completion of a number of NCO leadership schools. His rise to CSM came via one of 2 paths. He was either an outstanding NCO whose artillery batteries performed at a very high level, or he was someones favorite. Whichever path he took he earned his promotion in the eyes of the US Army. Nobody can take that away from him. The one thing about his career that bothers me is this. When his artillery unit was on the cusp of a combat deployment to Iraq he decided it was time to call it a career. That was his prerogative. It does pose IMO a legitimate question. What was his reason for leaving his soldiers without their senior ranking NCO? They were getting ready to deploy on a front line combat assignment? At face value that appears odd to me. Did he reach a point where a promising political career was more important than risking his life. There are some members of his former unit that question his decision to leave when he did.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: 2024

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

A little reporting on JDV:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... son-texts/

"The day after JD Vance was elected to the U.S. Senate in 2022, he received a congratulatory text from Charles Johnson, a blogger and entrepreneur who has zealously promoted right-wing conspiracy theories.

Cut through the 2024 election noise. Get The Campaign Moment newsletter.
Johnson assumed the posture of a wise mentor, cautioning the first-time officeholder to choose his staff carefully and repeatedly pressing him on his committee assignments. “Got to keep you out of trouble,” wrote Johnson, who now describes himself as a government informant seeking to protect the United States from foreign influence.

Their correspondence over the next 20 months — extending into the weeks before former president Donald Trump picked Vance as his running mate — offers a glimpse of the Republican vice-presidential nominee’s off-the-cuff musings, often matching his public expressions but voiced with much less polish. Vance was just as casual in discussing America’s foreign alliances as he was in evaluating his own private alliances with the GOP’s moneyed class. With Johnson, he pondered responsibility for the sabotage of the Nord Stream gas pipelines and crudely described his aversion to the Ukrainian government and refusal to consider its pleas for U.S. assistance.

“Dude I won’t even take calls from Ukraine,” he told Johnson in October, about three weeks after House Republicans blocked additional aid to help Kyiv repel the Russian invasion. “Two very senior guys reached out to me. The head of their intel. The head of the Air Force. Bitching about F16s.”

In response to questions about his correspondence with Johnson, Vance spokesman William Martin said the two were never close and don’t share the same politics. “Chuck Johnson spam texted JD Vance,” Martin said. “JD usually ignored him, but occasionally responded to push back against things he said.”

The texts, sent over the encrypted messaging app Signal and provided by Johnson to The Washington Post, show the 40-year-old senator engaged in the kind of freewheeling communication ordinarily tightly controlled by congressional staff.

As a newly minted senator, Vance solicited Johnson’s views on many topics, including UFOs (“What is your read”), the Republican Party’s relationship with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu (“What is GOP Bibi problem?”) and the death of convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein (“Do you think Epstein actually killed himself?”). When Johnson suggested that the senator should work to restrict foreign ownership of U.S. housing, Vance responded with a “thumbs up” emoji.

The mostly friendly conversation with Johnson reflects how Vance gravitates to people on the political fringe — a cohort emboldened by Trump’s insurgent campaign in 2016 and highly active online in the years since. After Trump picked Vance as his running mate on July 15, Johnson has been criticizing his onetime interlocutor and threatening to release their communications. He said he has grown disillusioned with Vance, especially over the senator’s favorable view of the Israeli prime minister, and now supports President Biden and Vice President Harris, the Democratic presidential nominee.

Johnson has spread fantastical claims about a wide range of politicians and journalists and has made comments casting doubt on the Holocaust. He was banned from Twitter in 2015 for soliciting donations aimed at “taking out” Black Lives Matter activist DeRay Mckesson. He argued at the time that he was referring to journalistic sleuthing, and his account was restored under the platform’s new owner, Elon Musk.

Johnson has provided information to the FBI in recent years about some of his associates and maintains that his access to far-right circles has allowed him to expose wrongdoing and serve the public good, saying, “My admittedly controversial associations have allowed me to get entry to some of the most fringe spaces, but my commitment to our country hasn’t wavered.”

Vance is perhaps the most high-profile emblem of a new breed of conservative politician willing to entertain and endorse provocative or offensive figures. Trump has displayed similar impulses, including in 2022 when he dined at his Mar-a-Lago Club with Nick Fuentes, an outspoken Holocaust denier.

Unlike Trump, however, Vance has turned his ideological permissiveness into a political philosophy — an open embrace of the unvetted and the indecent aimed at undermining conventional norms of truth and decorum. Vance has defended his vision as a big tent representing how many Americans actually think. Democrats have described his approach as “weird,” a label that Harris allies have increasingly applied to the Trump ticket.

Vance has bragged about being “plugged into a lot of weird, right-wing subcultures.” He wrote a positive blurb for a book by Jack Posobiec, the far-right activist who advanced the “Pizzagate” conspiracy theory. And he has defended Alex Jones, the right-wing radio host who spread lies about the Sandy Hook school shooting.

“Believing crazy things is not the mark of whether somebody should be rejected,” Vance said in a 2021 speech to the conservative Teneo Network that was recently published by ProPublica. “Believing important truths should be the mark of whether we accept somebody, and if they believe some crazy things on the side, that’s fine. We need to be okay with nonconventional people.”

In the texts, Vance often seemed skeptical of Johnson — not because of his associations with far-right causes but rather because of his self-presentation as a spook. “If you are who you say you are then don’t you have my phone tapped?” Vance wrote last fall, adding an emoji signaling that he was laughing so hard he was crying.

Still, the messages suggest Vance valued Johnson’s opinions. The two were introduced over email in 2019 by a Republican fundraiser, according to correspondence shared with The Post, but Johnson, who helped start the facial recognition company Clearview AI, said they had spoken previously. Though their conversation was generally amicable, they argued about Israel in the messages. Vance pushed back on Johnson’s criticism of Netanyahu, falsely characterizing some of the prime minister’s past positions.

“If the GOP listened to Bibi we wouldn’t have invaded Iraq, wouldn’t have done nation building in Afghanistan, and wouldn’t be threatening a war with Iran,” he wrote. In fact, Netanyahu supported the U.S. invasion of Iraq and had pushed for regime change in Iran, telling Congress in 2002, “It’s not a question of whether Iraq’s regime should be taken out but when should it be taken out; it’s not a question of whether you’d like to see a regime change in Iran but how to achieve it.”

Vance said he thought more of Netanyahu’s government than of Americans who support interventionist foreign policy. “Publicly and privately not a single rep of the Israeli government has sounded as insane as our neocons,” he wrote.

His defense of Israel and scorn for neoconservatives shows Vance saying privately what he often says publicly. But he let his guard down with Johnson, responding to the suggestion that he read an article about the influence of Sheldon Adelson, the late Republican megadonor, by saying, “I’m pretty sure he gave me turd.”

“Never met him,” Vance wrote last year. “Hes dead. Don’t care.”

Adelson died in January 2021, months before Vance entered the race for U.S. Senate in Ohio. But his widow, Miriam Adelson, contributed $2,900 to Vance’s campaign, federal records show, and she recently gave $5 million to a pro-Trump super PAC, with promises to contribute more this year.

A spokesman for the Adelson family, Andy Abboud, said Miriam Adelson spoke Monday to Vance following a Post inquiry about the senator’s message to Johnson. “She is unfazed,” Abboud said. “She will continue to have a good relationship with JD Vance.”

In the messages, Vance pushed back on Johnson’s accusations that he was beholden to donors and other allies, including his law school mentor, Yale professor Amy Chua. When Johnson suggested that Vance was channeling Chinese and Israeli interests, Vance replied, “Chua doesn’t tell me anything.” He added: “I am pretty sure I don’t even know another Chinese american.” Chua declined to comment.

At times, the conversation was one-sided, with Johnson repeatedly texting Vance his social media posts without eliciting any response. Late last year, they argued after Johnson challenged Vance’s criticism of the sale of U.S. Steel to a Japanese corporation. “Stop sending me weird messages,” Vance told Johnson. “I find your threatening tone enraging.”

But occasionally, Vance took the initiative with Johnson, reaching out last fall to ridicule the mental state of a pro-Ukraine activist. In a nod to Johnson’s purported work for the U.S. government, Vance suggested he should “have the spooks up the doses of Xanax among the rank and file,” an insinuation that Washington was engineering popular support for Ukraine. The following month, he asked for Johnson’s take on a former intelligence official’s claims that the U.S. government had evidence of alien spacecraft.

In response to a tweet Johnson sent him about Epstein’s death, Vance asked whether he thought it was a suicide, as New York City’s medical examiner concluded, and added of the sex offender: “Also haven’t followed story closely but he seemed like a genuinely bad dude.”

On June 24, as several media outlets reported that Vance was among Trump’s top choices for vice president, Johnson wrote to him: “Congratulations. Good luck.”

Vance responded six days later. “For what?” he asked. “You assume too much!”

Johnson warned: “Don’t take it when it’s offered. It’s a trap.”

“Haha,” Vance wrote back. “Doubt it’s offered. We’ll see.”

On July 15, the day Trump announced his selection, Johnson sent Vance a message: “Lots of reporters asking into you.”
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old salt
Posts: 18819
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Re: 2024

Post by old salt »

DMac wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:35 am You've got to be a little careful here, shipmate, I clearly remember the Dubya military service discussion and it was likely I who was doing the "denigrating" re Bush's military service. I was brand new to computers, the reason I got one was because of LaxPower, someone had told me about it after I said something he said I should put on LaxPower. He showed me what it was and I thought this is a playground I want to play in, so I got one. Didn't know how to copy and paste and thought everyone here was a genius (I know how to google now too). You were mighty flowery about Bush and his military service (I get it now, he was a R) but I knew better. I did find an article about the outfit Bush was in along with other politician's and celebrity's sons. I hand wrote it on a legal pad then typed it onto LaxPower. It might not have been pretty but I got it on there. When I came back and looked at the post it had been all cleaned up...italicized, quotes, all prettied up and looking professional (pretty sure our boy b-aldo cleaned it all up because I know he liked what it said). This was a cush outfit that the privileged, rich, and connected went in. It was in '68, a brutal year here and in Vietnam (TET). You know as well as I do that the NG was a pretty safe place to fulfill your military obligation (draft was still on) with a next to nil likelihood of being shipped abroad (particularly to Vietnam). You didn't disagree with what I put up there at the time, really wasn't anyway to disagree. I like Dubya these days but to glorify his military service....nah, he took a pretty soft and safe path and in retrospect I can't say as I blame him. The NG was nothing like it is today, many saw it as a safe way out...including some of my friends who made it sound like they had gone through hell and back.
I recall what you posted after the keyboard warriors from CT, PA , & SC first mocked Bush about the nature of his service, calling him a draft dodger.
I never denied that Bush got a sweetheart opportunity & then an early out, due to his political connections.
I pointed out that (even in the ANG) piloting a F-102 was a demanding assignment, not without risk, that Bush successfully accomplished.
In 1970, I was a pall bearer at the funeral of a HS FB teammate who spun in piloting a T-37 in USAF pilot undergrad training.
It was a coincidence that W's TX ANG unit was not deployed to SE Asia like other USAF F-102 squadrons were.
My younger brother served in the MO ANG squadron of F-100's based in StL. He still calls it F Troop.
He got in because a lifer in the squadron lived in our town & was a family friend.
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Kismet
Posts: 4997
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:42 pm

Re: 2024

Post by Kismet »

old salt wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:08 am
Kismet wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2024 6:22 am
old salt wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2024 12:43 am :shock: What is the cheap shot ? That's just a fact about the NG. They have a different chain of command than the active duty forces.
They only compete for promotion with fellow members of their state NG. A much smaller competitive pool than the entire active duty Army.
In the NG it's easier to be known throughout the state NG force than throughout the entire Army for active duty members. In some ways, that's a good thing. It's harder for a marginal performer to slip by. It was a compliment to Walz. To be an effective CSM, it helps to be politically adept & able to communicate with all levels of the chain of command. Walz served for 24 years & came up through the ranks based on his performance.

I recall you denigrating GW Bush for getting a fighter pilot slot in the TX ANG based on political connections, even though he completed flight training & served honorably. That's just an example of how politics can influence personnel decisions in the NG. Stick to topics you have experience with or know something about.

I never said I'd vote for Walz for President. I think his policies are WEIRD. I'm still favorably impressed by his personal story, resume, persona & sense of humor. Unlike you, I can still like people whom I disagree with politically & would not vote for.
Like I said, the usual troll garbage from you including the fantasy discussion you claim to have had while you were swift-boating John Kerry. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Unlike Kerry (& your senior Senator from CT), no Stolen Valor by Walz. He does not embellish, exaggerate or lie about the details of his military service. He's understated about it. He does not promote the idea that it's something more than it was. I admire him for that.
Walz' best line of the night referring to the short campaign timeline - “We’ll sleep when we’re dead.”
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old salt
Posts: 18819
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:44 am

Re: 2024

Post by old salt »

Kismet wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2024 8:01 am
old salt wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:08 am
Kismet wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2024 6:22 am
old salt wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2024 12:43 am :shock: What is the cheap shot ? That's just a fact about the NG. They have a different chain of command than the active duty forces.
They only compete for promotion with fellow members of their state NG. A much smaller competitive pool than the entire active duty Army.
In the NG it's easier to be known throughout the state NG force than throughout the entire Army for active duty members. In some ways, that's a good thing. It's harder for a marginal performer to slip by. It was a compliment to Walz. To be an effective CSM, it helps to be politically adept & able to communicate with all levels of the chain of command. Walz served for 24 years & came up through the ranks based on his performance.

I recall you denigrating GW Bush for getting a fighter pilot slot in the TX ANG based on political connections, even though he completed flight training & served honorably. That's just an example of how politics can influence personnel decisions in the NG. Stick to topics you have experience with or know something about.

I never said I'd vote for Walz for President. I think his policies are WEIRD. I'm still favorably impressed by his personal story, resume, persona & sense of humor. Unlike you, I can still like people whom I disagree with politically & would not vote for.
Like I said, the usual troll garbage from you including the fantasy discussion you claim to have had while you were swift-boating John Kerry. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Unlike Kerry (& your senior Senator from CT), no Stolen Valor by Walz. He does not embellish, exaggerate or lie about the details of his military service. He's understated about it. He does not promote the idea that it's something more than it was. I admire him for that.
Walz' best line of the night referring to the short campaign timeline - “We’ll sleep when we’re dead.”
You never heard that before ? That's hardly an original line.
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 34067
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: 2024

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:41 am A little reporting on JDV:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... son-texts/

"The day after JD Vance was elected to the U.S. Senate in 2022, he received a congratulatory text from Charles Johnson, a blogger and entrepreneur who has zealously promoted right-wing conspiracy theories.

Cut through the 2024 election noise. Get The Campaign Moment newsletter.
Johnson assumed the posture of a wise mentor, cautioning the first-time officeholder to choose his staff carefully and repeatedly pressing him on his committee assignments. “Got to keep you out of trouble,” wrote Johnson, who now describes himself as a government informant seeking to protect the United States from foreign influence.

Their correspondence over the next 20 months — extending into the weeks before former president Donald Trump picked Vance as his running mate — offers a glimpse of the Republican vice-presidential nominee’s off-the-cuff musings, often matching his public expressions but voiced with much less polish. Vance was just as casual in discussing America’s foreign alliances as he was in evaluating his own private alliances with the GOP’s moneyed class. With Johnson, he pondered responsibility for the sabotage of the Nord Stream gas pipelines and crudely described his aversion to the Ukrainian government and refusal to consider its pleas for U.S. assistance.

“Dude I won’t even take calls from Ukraine,” he told Johnson in October, about three weeks after House Republicans blocked additional aid to help Kyiv repel the Russian invasion. “Two very senior guys reached out to me. The head of their intel. The head of the Air Force. Bitching about F16s.”

In response to questions about his correspondence with Johnson, Vance spokesman William Martin said the two were never close and don’t share the same politics. “Chuck Johnson spam texted JD Vance,” Martin said. “JD usually ignored him, but occasionally responded to push back against things he said.”

The texts, sent over the encrypted messaging app Signal and provided by Johnson to The Washington Post, show the 40-year-old senator engaged in the kind of freewheeling communication ordinarily tightly controlled by congressional staff.

As a newly minted senator, Vance solicited Johnson’s views on many topics, including UFOs (“What is your read”), the Republican Party’s relationship with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu (“What is GOP Bibi problem?”) and the death of convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein (“Do you think Epstein actually killed himself?”). When Johnson suggested that the senator should work to restrict foreign ownership of U.S. housing, Vance responded with a “thumbs up” emoji.

The mostly friendly conversation with Johnson reflects how Vance gravitates to people on the political fringe — a cohort emboldened by Trump’s insurgent campaign in 2016 and highly active online in the years since. After Trump picked Vance as his running mate on July 15, Johnson has been criticizing his onetime interlocutor and threatening to release their communications. He said he has grown disillusioned with Vance, especially over the senator’s favorable view of the Israeli prime minister, and now supports President Biden and Vice President Harris, the Democratic presidential nominee.

Johnson has spread fantastical claims about a wide range of politicians and journalists and has made comments casting doubt on the Holocaust. He was banned from Twitter in 2015 for soliciting donations aimed at “taking out” Black Lives Matter activist DeRay Mckesson. He argued at the time that he was referring to journalistic sleuthing, and his account was restored under the platform’s new owner, Elon Musk.

Johnson has provided information to the FBI in recent years about some of his associates and maintains that his access to far-right circles has allowed him to expose wrongdoing and serve the public good, saying, “My admittedly controversial associations have allowed me to get entry to some of the most fringe spaces, but my commitment to our country hasn’t wavered.”

Vance is perhaps the most high-profile emblem of a new breed of conservative politician willing to entertain and endorse provocative or offensive figures. Trump has displayed similar impulses, including in 2022 when he dined at his Mar-a-Lago Club with Nick Fuentes, an outspoken Holocaust denier.

Unlike Trump, however, Vance has turned his ideological permissiveness into a political philosophy — an open embrace of the unvetted and the indecent aimed at undermining conventional norms of truth and decorum. Vance has defended his vision as a big tent representing how many Americans actually think. Democrats have described his approach as “weird,” a label that Harris allies have increasingly applied to the Trump ticket.

Vance has bragged about being “plugged into a lot of weird, right-wing subcultures.” He wrote a positive blurb for a book by Jack Posobiec, the far-right activist who advanced the “Pizzagate” conspiracy theory. And he has defended Alex Jones, the right-wing radio host who spread lies about the Sandy Hook school shooting.

“Believing crazy things is not the mark of whether somebody should be rejected,” Vance said in a 2021 speech to the conservative Teneo Network that was recently published by ProPublica. “Believing important truths should be the mark of whether we accept somebody, and if they believe some crazy things on the side, that’s fine. We need to be okay with nonconventional people.”

In the texts, Vance often seemed skeptical of Johnson — not because of his associations with far-right causes but rather because of his self-presentation as a spook. “If you are who you say you are then don’t you have my phone tapped?” Vance wrote last fall, adding an emoji signaling that he was laughing so hard he was crying.

Still, the messages suggest Vance valued Johnson’s opinions. The two were introduced over email in 2019 by a Republican fundraiser, according to correspondence shared with The Post, but Johnson, who helped start the facial recognition company Clearview AI, said they had spoken previously. Though their conversation was generally amicable, they argued about Israel in the messages. Vance pushed back on Johnson’s criticism of Netanyahu, falsely characterizing some of the prime minister’s past positions.

“If the GOP listened to Bibi we wouldn’t have invaded Iraq, wouldn’t have done nation building in Afghanistan, and wouldn’t be threatening a war with Iran,” he wrote. In fact, Netanyahu supported the U.S. invasion of Iraq and had pushed for regime change in Iran, telling Congress in 2002, “It’s not a question of whether Iraq’s regime should be taken out but when should it be taken out; it’s not a question of whether you’d like to see a regime change in Iran but how to achieve it.”

Vance said he thought more of Netanyahu’s government than of Americans who support interventionist foreign policy. “Publicly and privately not a single rep of the Israeli government has sounded as insane as our neocons,” he wrote.

His defense of Israel and scorn for neoconservatives shows Vance saying privately what he often says publicly. But he let his guard down with Johnson, responding to the suggestion that he read an article about the influence of Sheldon Adelson, the late Republican megadonor, by saying, “I’m pretty sure he gave me turd.”

“Never met him,” Vance wrote last year. “Hes dead. Don’t care.”

Adelson died in January 2021, months before Vance entered the race for U.S. Senate in Ohio. But his widow, Miriam Adelson, contributed $2,900 to Vance’s campaign, federal records show, and she recently gave $5 million to a pro-Trump super PAC, with promises to contribute more this year.

A spokesman for the Adelson family, Andy Abboud, said Miriam Adelson spoke Monday to Vance following a Post inquiry about the senator’s message to Johnson. “She is unfazed,” Abboud said. “She will continue to have a good relationship with JD Vance.”

In the messages, Vance pushed back on Johnson’s accusations that he was beholden to donors and other allies, including his law school mentor, Yale professor Amy Chua. When Johnson suggested that Vance was channeling Chinese and Israeli interests, Vance replied, “Chua doesn’t tell me anything.” He added: “I am pretty sure I don’t even know another Chinese american.” Chua declined to comment.

At times, the conversation was one-sided, with Johnson repeatedly texting Vance his social media posts without eliciting any response. Late last year, they argued after Johnson challenged Vance’s criticism of the sale of U.S. Steel to a Japanese corporation. “Stop sending me weird messages,” Vance told Johnson. “I find your threatening tone enraging.”

But occasionally, Vance took the initiative with Johnson, reaching out last fall to ridicule the mental state of a pro-Ukraine activist. In a nod to Johnson’s purported work for the U.S. government, Vance suggested he should “have the spooks up the doses of Xanax among the rank and file,” an insinuation that Washington was engineering popular support for Ukraine. The following month, he asked for Johnson’s take on a former intelligence official’s claims that the U.S. government had evidence of alien spacecraft.

In response to a tweet Johnson sent him about Epstein’s death, Vance asked whether he thought it was a suicide, as New York City’s medical examiner concluded, and added of the sex offender: “Also haven’t followed story closely but he seemed like a genuinely bad dude.”

On June 24, as several media outlets reported that Vance was among Trump’s top choices for vice president, Johnson wrote to him: “Congratulations. Good luck.”

Vance responded six days later. “For what?” he asked. “You assume too much!”

Johnson warned: “Don’t take it when it’s offered. It’s a trap.”

“Haha,” Vance wrote back. “Doubt it’s offered. We’ll see.”

On July 15, the day Trump announced his selection, Johnson sent Vance a message: “Lots of reporters asking into you.”
…. “but her emails”.
“I wish you would!”
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WaffleTwineFaceoff
Posts: 235
Joined: Mon May 01, 2023 9:10 am

Re: 2024

Post by WaffleTwineFaceoff »

a fan wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 11:15 pm
WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 10:43 pm
a fan wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 9:55 pm
WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 4:51 pm https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis ... /600850577

Plus: Women's reproductive autonomy/health. K-12 meals.
Minus: Decide for yourself.
Skeleton: Old DWI arrest with perjury about being "deaf". Doing 95 in 55 zone. Failed field sobriety test and test in hospital. Sweetheart plea reduces charges to reckless driving. He was a high school teacher at the time. No excuses work for me. None. I have zero tolerance for America's lack of interest in addressing it's DWI epidemic/crisis (especially when the numbers of innocent victims killed by DWI violence averages 5,000/year in America, while the number of innocent victims killed by all rifles averages ~500/year in America). Another 8,000 DWI deaths (on top of that 5,000) are the drunk drivers who kill themselves.
Killed by "all rifles". That's quite the new statistical subcategory you've made up, my man. ;)
Straight from our government, my man. "All rifles" = Shotguns, bolt-action, semi-automatic. You're clever, search engine the classification. Hint: three letter agency. Fact: of homicide in America by all means (knives, fists/feet, bats, hammers, handguns, all rifles) year in and year out, the "all rifles" category usually clocks in at ~500 per year out of ~20k. :roll:
:lol: So....intentionally omit handguns, and hope no one notices? Come on, man.

And it was 40K gun deaths last year, btw.

You can make your points here without the absurd spin. NO ONE here wants to take away your guns, my man.
Let's try to unpack this granularly, and we can take any needed additional discussions over to Sensible Guns.

1) Walz named as VP choice.
2) I dislike his DWI arrest and circumstances.
3) As more of an aside than anything else, I point out that innocent Americans are murdered at a rate 10x that of - and I use "all rifles" category our government uses which encompasses "assault weapons" - to basically say "wow, with all the enmity for assault weapons, one would wonder why not 10x the enmity for drunk driving?" Where are calls for every single vehicle in America to have a breathalyzer lockout? You blow below - or you don't go! All of us. It would save 10x the innocent lives as those killed by all rifles, including "assault weapons". Where is the the bipartisan bill to get that done?
4) Let's not forget Walz is an "assault weapons" ban proponent. Hypocrite much, Tim?
5) You jump in with a "all rifle" observation.
6) I provide the category is one our government reports use, and reiterate the small % of "all rifles" every year in overall murder.
7) You suggest I'm avoiding addressing handguns. Not avoiding: see 3) above for what I initially brought up and why. Let's have our handgun fun over on Sensible.
8) Enter into the conversation the CDC conflated gun deaths numbers padded by suicide (as gun violence). We can take that to the Sensible thread, and talk about suicide not being a crime, and question why the 45% of suicides of males and the predominant method of suicide for females in America are by Rope, Pills, Gravity, Razors, Suffocation. We can then ask why there isn't Rope Violence, Gravity Violence, Pill Violence...etc. And go round and round. And we can ask about why the CDC quietly stopped reporting on Defensive Gun Uses a few years ago under pressure from those who's narrative was being undermined by those inconvenient truths. Great. See you on Sensible.

In terms of MADD posed by another poster above, that organization should indeed have something to say about Walz DWI and the subsequent shady claims & plea. And here's a ridiculous aside spin to enjoy with your morning coffee: Folks here ever ask themselves why MADD has never blamed Ford, Chevy, GMC or Mercedes for the actions of human beings who commit the crime of vehicular murder? Remember, it is occurring at a rate of 10x compared to "all rifles", year in and year out. In furtherance of America's unwillingness to take on this massive public health scourge we have this from Monday:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/05/well ... 1799cc302c

Semantics, heuristics, gymnastics, absurd spin. Whatever.

Please resume this thread with apologies for pointing out two things vis-a-vis Walz: how much I loathe DWI (and I have good reason), and how much I loathe our leader's obsessive fixation on something that kills 1/10th the number of innocent victims as DWI violence does. We don't need to get into the rest of my "Where's the outrage?" hypocrisy greatest hits list I've posted and pondered about numerous times on the Sensible thread.

So, yeah, Walz as a DWI arrested hypocrite leaning in on AWB's can kiss my...

And you fine folks, who I do appreciate in the majority and the aggregate, have a lovely day.
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it. John Stuart Mill On Liberty 1859
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