Religion in America

[MDlaxfan76]

I’ll be 75 later this summer. Maybe religion wasn’t always bs, but I can’t remember when it didn’t seem like utter bs to me. I think I believed what the nuns told me in the first couple years of school and maybe have a little credence to what I was taught as an Episcopalian, but I definitely stopped believing in the mythology before I exited middle school. As you age, you experience deaths of people you are close to. I happened to see my share of people die I my career. Never once has a religious belief given my comfort in confronting death and dying. For those like my grandmother, a devout Seventh Day Adventist who great solace from her faith, religion can provide a genuine comfort in viewing the world,
No public funds, in my view, should support religious organizations. Let those who believe pay the bills. Leave the rest big us, about 35% of the US population, alone.

35% and growing. We have conservative Christians to thank for that.

IMO, that's likely the chief reason, the so heavy insertion of politics with religion. We now see right wing politics superseding religious tenets. Downright idolatry of someone who so clearly violates key tenets of Christianity.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/20 ... t-decades/

https://www.prri.org/spotlight/prri-202 ... nd-trends/

I also think that formal religion and religiosity have become associated, particularly in younger Americans' perceptions, with things that are very distasteful, eg sexual predation (and institutional coverup) and terrorism.

We see quite clear 'values' gaps between formal, 'conservative' religious demands and younger Americans' own ethical values. However, that's not really new, as folks like my dad left the Catholic Church because of their stance in the '50's and '60's towards contraception... a precursor move to what we've seen in later periods with regard to abortion, gender, female priests, etc. And then the shock of understanding how gross and deep the institutional coverup of sexual predators in the clergy had been.

Much the same has happened in other "conservative" denominations, same dynamics of values gap and shock over coverups, whether sexual or financial.

It's not as if most young people don't have strong or clear ethical values, it's that they don't look to formal religious institutions to tell them what they should be.

Does the insertion of primarily left leaning black churches figure into your equation or does that mean I hate black people for even mentioning it? Black or white they represent Christian values do they not?

Most black churches are actually quite conservative in all sorts of ways, albeit, sure, they're more likely to look at the world from a black community perspective. Not sure where you got the notion that they're "primarily left-leaning", unless by "left-leaning" you mean opposition to racism and political activism in that regard. That's certainly true for Black Protestant churches, it's an important theme...but 'family values' are a very big deal. Those churches are having challenges too with younger people, if I understand correctly. That said, much higher attendance and affiliation rates than White Americans.

https://apnews.com/article/black-protes ... 220573455f#

Read those links and reports, this trend away from formal religion and religiosity isn't something I've made up because I feel like it.

[KI Dock Bar]

I’ll be 75 later this summer. Maybe religion wasn’t always bs, but I can’t remember when it didn’t seem like utter bs to me. I think I believed what the nuns told me in the first couple years of school and maybe have a little credence to what I was taught as an Episcopalian, but I definitely stopped believing in the mythology before I exited middle school. As you age, you experience deaths of people you are close to. I happened to see my share of people die I my career. Never once has a religious belief given my comfort in confronting death and dying. For those like my grandmother, a devout Seventh Day Adventist who great solace from her faith, religion can provide a genuine comfort in viewing the world,
No public funds, in my view, should support religious organizations. Let those who believe pay the bills. Leave the rest big us, about 35% of the US population, alone.

35% and growing. We have conservative Christians to thank for that.

IMO, that's likely the chief reason, the so heavy insertion of politics with religion. We now see right wing politics superseding religious tenets. Downright idolatry of someone who so clearly violates key tenets of Christianity.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/20 ... t-decades/

https://www.prri.org/spotlight/prri-202 ... nd-trends/

I also think that formal religion and religiosity have become associated, particularly in younger Americans' perceptions, with things that are very distasteful, eg sexual predation (and institutional coverup) and terrorism.

We see quite clear 'values' gaps between formal, 'conservative' religious demands and younger Americans' own ethical values. However, that's not really new, as folks like my dad left the Catholic Church because of their stance in the '50's and '60's towards contraception... a precursor move to what we've seen in later periods with regard to abortion, gender, female priests, etc. And then the shock of understanding how gross and deep the institutional coverup of sexual predators in the clergy had been.

Much the same has happened in other "conservative" denominations, same dynamics of values gap and shock over coverups, whether sexual or financial.

It's not as if most young people don't have strong or clear ethical values, it's that they don't look to formal religious institutions to tell them what they should be.

Does the insertion of primarily left leaning black churches figure into your equation or does that mean I hate black people for even mentioning it? Black or white they represent Christian values do they not?

Most black churches are actually quite conservative in all sorts of ways, albeit, sure, they're more likely to look at the world from a black community perspective. Not sure where you got the notion that they're "primarily left-leaning", unless by "left-leaning" you mean opposition to racism and political activism in that regard. That's certainly true for Black Protestant churches, it's an important theme...but 'family values' are a very big deal. Those churches are having challenges too with younger people, if I undMost of these stand correctly. That said, much higher attendance and affiliation rates than White Americans.

https://apnews.com/article/black-protes ... 220573455f#

Read those links and reports, this trend away from formal religion and religiosity isn't something I've made up because I feel like it.

Very few of the weddings I go to now are in churches. Most of these "youngsters" are in their 30's. The presider is usually a family member or a friend of the family. Very odd for me as a church going person who thinks everyone should be married under the eyes of GOD, but what do I know.

[MDlaxfan76]

I’ll be 75 later this summer. Maybe religion wasn’t always bs, but I can’t remember when it didn’t seem like utter bs to me. I think I believed what the nuns told me in the first couple years of school and maybe have a little credence to what I was taught as an Episcopalian, but I definitely stopped believing in the mythology before I exited middle school. As you age, you experience deaths of people you are close to. I happened to see my share of people die I my career. Never once has a religious belief given my comfort in confronting death and dying. For those like my grandmother, a devout Seventh Day Adventist who great solace from her faith, religion can provide a genuine comfort in viewing the world,
No public funds, in my view, should support religious organizations. Let those who believe pay the bills. Leave the rest big us, about 35% of the US population, alone.

35% and growing. We have conservative Christians to thank for that.

IMO, that's likely the chief reason, the so heavy insertion of politics with religion. We now see right wing politics superseding religious tenets. Downright idolatry of someone who so clearly violates key tenets of Christianity.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/20 ... t-decades/

https://www.prri.org/spotlight/prri-202 ... nd-trends/

I also think that formal religion and religiosity have become associated, particularly in younger Americans' perceptions, with things that are very distasteful, eg sexual predation (and institutional coverup) and terrorism.

We see quite clear 'values' gaps between formal, 'conservative' religious demands and younger Americans' own ethical values. However, that's not really new, as folks like my dad left the Catholic Church because of their stance in the '50's and '60's towards contraception... a precursor move to what we've seen in later periods with regard to abortion, gender, female priests, etc. And then the shock of understanding how gross and deep the institutional coverup of sexual predators in the clergy had been.

Much the same has happened in other "conservative" denominations, same dynamics of values gap and shock over coverups, whether sexual or financial.

It's not as if most young people don't have strong or clear ethical values, it's that they don't look to formal religious institutions to tell them what they should be.

Does the insertion of primarily left leaning black churches figure into your equation or does that mean I hate black people for even mentioning it? Black or white they represent Christian values do they not?

Most black churches are actually quite conservative in all sorts of ways, albeit, sure, they're more likely to look at the world from a black community perspective. Not sure where you got the notion that they're "primarily left-leaning", unless by "left-leaning" you mean opposition to racism and political activism in that regard. That's certainly true for Black Protestant churches, it's an important theme...but 'family values' are a very big deal. Those churches are having challenges too with younger people, if I undMost of these stand correctly. That said, much higher attendance and affiliation rates than White Americans.

https://apnews.com/article/black-protes ... 220573455f#

Read those links and reports, this trend away from formal religion and religiosity isn't something I've made up because I feel like it.

Very few of the weddings I go to now are in churches. Most of these "youngsters" are in their 30's. The presider is usually a family member or a friend of the family. Very odd for me as a church going person who thinks everyone should be married under the eyes of GOD, but what do I know.

Yup, I posted elsewhere that I'm in Woods Hole this week for my niece's wedding. My son was their officiant, his first time doing it. Likely won't be his last.

Knowing the bride and groom well, he carefully removed references to God from some of the text he was considering for his opening and closing words that he wrote himself, but the commitments made and the overall tone was nevertheless quite powerful, quite moving.

My non clergy Catholic brother-in law has done it more than 60 times, several per year, so he had a bunch of samples of versions he'd used. Many included references to God, but some did not, all based on the preferences of those being married. My brother in law also dresses as Santa 25 times a year, Turkey at the Y Turkey Trot, Easter Bunny, etc...and does auctions for charities. He's very comfortable with an audience...

For those of us like you and I who are 'faithful', I like to think that whatever the words, "under the eyes of God" applies, as where there is love and commitment, there is God...

[jhu72]

My son and his wife did not want a religious ceremony in a synagogue (both Jewish) in Connecticut (her home). The bride liked the pond with a stand of spruce trees on my property (Hunt Valley, MD) and decided she wanted to do it there with a friend of her family who is a pastor performing the service. The post wedding celebration was held on our property, outdoors, as well. Get the sense there is a lot more of this than there used to be. The youngsters want something that is more meaningful to them. It is also a lot less expensive if the venue is free.

The last wedding I went too (last summer) was in Connecticut. My niece was married in a private hall in a park, a lay person performing the service. The reception on the same property.

Can't remember the last time I went to a traditional "church" wedding. Been a long time.

[DMac]

You actually could leave the wedding part off of there, no?

[cradleandshoot]

I was always under the belief that ALL Christians were raised with the belief to love and respect their fellow man/ woman. No matter the color of your skin or your national origin that should be an undeniable truth. If the hatred in your heart supercedes your faith then it is difficult to define yourself as a Christian. That is irregardless of your skin color or where you were born. That could have alot to do with why more and more people are turning their backs on the beliefs and the faith they were raised with. The older you get the more in focus the hypocrisy becomes.

[DMac]

I’ll be 75 later this summer. Maybe religion wasn’t always bs, but I can’t remember when it didn’t seem like utter bs to me. I think I believed what the nuns told me in the first couple years of school and maybe have a little credence to what I was taught as an Episcopalian, but I definitely stopped believing in the mythology before I exited middle school. As you age, you experience deaths of people you are close to. I happened to see my share of people die I my career. Never once has a religious belief given my comfort in confronting death and dying. For those like my grandmother, a devout Seventh Day Adventist who great solace from her faith, religion can provide a genuine comfort in viewing the world,
No public funds, in my view, should support religious organizations. Let those who believe pay the bills. Leave the rest big us, about 35% of the US population, alone.

Wow, I could have written that (my number would be 74 though).
Even after watching Charlton on the big screen as a young kid in
his smash hit movie I wasn't sold. Was never around any nuns or
priests until I was 12, and even then it was from a distance (the town
I went from 6th to 12th grade in was predominately Italian Catholics).
I found the Catholic religion to be very strange and freaky (nuns and
priests struck me as very odd people, was always leery of them). The
story about the guy living in the whale for three days didn't do a whole
lot to change my mind about much of anything either.

[cradleandshoot]

I’ll be 75 later this summer. Maybe religion wasn’t always bs, but I can’t remember when it didn’t seem like utter bs to me. I think I believed what the nuns told me in the first couple years of school and maybe have a little credence to what I was taught as an Episcopalian, but I definitely stopped believing in the mythology before I exited middle school. As you age, you experience deaths of people you are close to. I happened to see my share of people die I my career. Never once has a religious belief given my comfort in confronting death and dying. For those like my grandmother, a devout Seventh Day Adventist who great solace from her faith, religion can provide a genuine comfort in viewing the world,
No public funds, in my view, should support religious organizations. Let those who believe pay the bills. Leave the rest big us, about 35% of the US population, alone.

Wow, I could have written that (my number would be 74 though).
Even after watching Charlton on the big screen as a young kid in
his smash hit movie I wasn't sold. Was never around any nuns or
priests until I was 12, and even then it was from a distance (the town
I went from 6th to 12th grade in was predominately Italian Catholics).
I found the Catholic religion to be very strange and freaky (nuns and
priests struck me as very odd people, was always leery of them). The
story about the guy living in the whale for three days didn't do a whole
lot to change my mind about much of anything either.

Those nuns and priests were a huge part of my life until I graduated from a Catholic HS. That was a part of my early legacy having grown up in a devout Catholic family with my Irish Catholic mother leading the parade. I had a great aunt, my grandfathers sister who was one of those old school nuns who taught grammer school kids for a long time. Apparently good old Sr Rosella had a penchant for handing out the fear of God and Jesus to misbehaving young school kids. One such lad was caught red handed with a comic book inserted into his open history book. The fear of God was implemented with a wooden ruler with a metal edge.

[DMac]

Well. I hope he wasn't dumb enough to try writing left-handed in class.
I saw a video of Babe Ruth autographing something and he did that right-
handed. You know he was a through and through lefty but you can bet your
asz the nuns beat any thoughts of his writing left-handed out of him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVGj0BtPw8I

[cradleandshoot]

Well. I hope he wasn't dumb enough to try writing left-handed in class.
I saw a video of Babe Ruth autographing something and he did that right-
handed. You know he was a through and through lefty but you can bet your
asz the nuns beat any thoughts of his writing left-handed out of him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVGj0BtPw8I

I'm pretty lucky in my own experience growing up in the Catholic Church. The nuns and priests were pretty stern but they didn't tend towards being overly violent. They had perfected the art of intimidation as their primary weapon by the time I was in school in the 60s. That note to take home to my mom in the sealed envelope was more frightening than any beat down in the coat room. FTR, not giving my mom the note didn't work. The note was expected to be returned to school signed by my mom the next day. You could try but that only made a bad situation a lot worse.

[3rdPersonPlural]

I defined myself as a religious Apathist since I learned the definition of the word Apathy. IOW I care about as much about your dogma and beliefs as I do about Buzkashi. I feel bad for the goat, but not that much.

But I have patience.

Example: When my kids were small, our little family of 4 was known to take the occasional meal at the local Micky-D’s. Right after we sat down with our meals, 4 furtive looking men toting heavy books larded with bookmarks came in with a little girl roughly my offsprings age.
The girl was dressed in her Sunday best and looked beyond anxious. The guys weren’t looking at the menus. They were looking at the diners. I had them in my side eye.
Long story short, the little girl got vectored at our table and began to aggressively proselytize in a timid voice at us. A sweet frightened little creature trying to hector us. The Former Trophy Bride was trying not to laugh. I felt just awful for her and asked leading questions – buying questions, for us who’ve worked in commerce – so we didn’t appear as hostile as she feared we were. My eldest son, who was all of 8 at the time, soon groked her underlying message and interjected “Wanna go play in the play room?” That broke the ice and the 3 kids frolicked off.
The grim men with the bookmarked Bibles then descended on us hoping to save the mission before retrieving their charge. More practiced hectoring ensued. Thankfully, the Former Trophy Bride excoriated them for child abuse. Loudly. 110 lbs. of pulchritude and fury. She drove them out the doors they’d come in without ever mentioning salvation and then marched back in, retrieved the little girl, and marched her out to the befuddled proselytizing team. When she returned, she was greeted with scattered applause.

Whatever patience I had with evangelical proselytizing ended that day. I’m good with folks who honor their Gods and respect their Dogmas and keep it to themselves, but please keep it to yourself.

[njbill]

Former Trophy Bride.

Maybe I have led a sheltered life, but I have never heard that one before.

[youthathletics]

But I have patience.....

Whatever patience I had.... with evangelical proselytizing ended that day. I’m good with folks who honor their Gods and respect their Dogmas and keep it to themselves, but please keep it to yourself.

Meet people where they are...

https://www.christianity.com/wiki/bible ... f-men.html

[3rdPersonPlural]

But I have patience.....

Whatever patience I had.... with evangelical proselytizing ended that day. I’m good with folks who honor their Gods and respect their Dogmas and keep it to themselves, but please keep it to yourself.

Meet people where they are...

https://www.christianity.com/wiki/bible ... f-men.html

St. Francis Assisi: “Preach the gospel at all times, and when necessary, use words”.

[Brooklyn]

More people have been killed in the name of the Bible than for any other reason in history. FACT.

[youthathletics]

But I have patience.....

Whatever patience I had.... with evangelical proselytizing ended that day. I’m good with folks who honor their Gods and respect their Dogmas and keep it to themselves, but please keep it to yourself.

Meet people where they are...

https://www.christianity.com/wiki/bible ... f-men.html

St. Francis Assisi: “Preach the gospel at all times, and when necessary, use words”.

I like that.

[youthathletics]

More people have been killed in the name of the Bible than for any other reason in history. FACT.

I know right, why put up a fight over something that is said to be make believe, makes no sense.

[Seacoaster(1)]

More people have been killed in the name of the Bible than for any other reason in history. FACT.

I know right, why put up a fight over something that is said to be make believe, makes no sense.

Just another form of bending the knee. The issue is control. The wars around religion are just the apotheosis of the control impulse: conform or be dead. Nice, right?

[youthathletics]

More people have been killed in the name of the Bible than for any other reason in history. FACT.

I know right, why put up a fight over something that is said to be make believe, makes no sense.

Just another form of bending the knee. The issue is control. The wars around religion are just the apotheosis of the control impulse: conform or be dead. Nice, right?

What Christian wars have there been in the last ~400 years? Further, all many of those Christian wars were primarily fought against the bending of the knee hierarchy....they turned out successfully, in our favor, arguably so you and I can post here.

Fast forward.....if history is an indicator of the future, it presents the dichotomy of (radical/calculated) islam and jihaad, which is currently clear and present danger....the 20 year GWOT is a prime example. And we are told, that anyone not from that portion of the globe simply does not understand them...as if, leave them alone and allow radicalism to prevail.

So yes, the church at that time wanted 'control' and Jesus, people like Martin Luther rightfully challenged them.

I think we agree here, but lumping in 2000 years of history may have us talking past one another.

[OCanada]

Martin Luther lead a revolution over theology