House v NCAA

[ggait]

I keep reading "a union". If you are on (say) Michigan's MBB or FBall team, what collective interest do you have with (say) the Tufts women's squash team?

For insight into big-time money sports, I can recommend https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CL7 ... k_ro_title

Only the money sports will need a cba.

Women’s squash does not need a union because it isn’t a business. The debate team does not need a union because it is not a business.

Michigan football is a business. Duh. It has to have a union in order to have legally valid rules.

As Cyndi Lauper advises, money changes everything. It is about money and business, not sports. Antitrust law applies to commerce (P5 football, Microsoft). Does not apply to non commercial student activities (squash, glee club, D3 football).

[Essexfenwick]

Seems like the ncaa could set salary caps on football and basketball teams based on the average team payrolls in g league basketball and UFL minus the average value of scholarships. Any extra profit comes from the school brand and loyalty developed by the institution. The players minor league payroll value is easily indicated by actual minor league payrolls.

NCAA cannot set anything. Because it is an illegal cartel.

Any/every cap or other restriction has to be collectively bargained to be legal.

But the state schools are government owned so that would make the government a cartel… true but ain’t happening . Might have to eject the privates.

[ggait]

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

State universities are subject to antitrust laws obviously. Most of the P5 schools involved in the proposed at settlement are state schools.

As state instrumentalities, they only enjoy limited areas of “ipso facto” immunity from at. Those would not apply to $$$ sports.

[MDlaxfan76]

I keep reading "a union". If you are on (say) Michigan's MBB or FBall team, what collective interest do you have with (say) the Tufts women's squash team?

For insight into big-time money sports, I can recommend https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CL7 ... k_ro_title

Only the money sports will need a cba.

Women’s squash does not need a union because it isn’t a business. The debate team does not need a union because it is not a business.

Michigan football is a business. Duh. It has to have a union in order to have legally valid rules.

As Cyndi Lauper advises, money changes everything. It is about money and business, not sports. Antitrust law applies to commerce (P5 football, Microsoft). Does not apply to non commercial student activities (squash, glee club, D3 football).

Agreed re the big money sports, but where's the line?

Universities want some regularity in their expectations of budget and at least somewhat even playing field.
And that includes the lower and no revenue sports.

Likewise, the athletes have some interests that go beyond the notion of direct pay.

[Farfromgeneva]

I keep reading "a union". If you are on (say) Michigan's MBB or FBall team, what collective interest do you have with (say) the Tufts women's squash team?

For insight into big-time money sports, I can recommend https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CL7 ... k_ro_title

Only the money sports will need a cba.

Women’s squash does not need a union because it isn’t a business. The debate team does not need a union because it is not a business.

Michigan football is a business. Duh. It has to have a union in order to have legally valid rules.

As Cyndi Lauper advises, money changes everything. It is about money and business, not sports. Antitrust law applies to commerce (P5 football, Microsoft). Does not apply to non commercial student activities (squash, glee club, D3 football).

Agreed re the big money sports, but where's the line?

Universities want some regularity in their expectations of budget and at least somewhat even playing field.
And that includes the lower and no revenue sports.

Likewise, the athletes have some interests that go beyond the notion of direct pay.

Correct. 90-95% of the commentary or analysis here ignores the institutions operating needs which I find...interesting.

[ggait]

The market determines the line.

The reason why the market previously has not been able to determine the line is because of the illegal collusive rules imposed by the ncaa on both business sports and activity sports.

Without the ncaa cartel, folks would have long since figured out that P5 football = commerce. And field hockey team = debate team (i.e. student activity).

And if football does not fund the debate team, why is football required to fund the field hockey team?

Bidness is bidness.

[MDlaxfan76]

The market determines the line.

The reason why the market previously has not been able to determine the line is because of the illegal collusive rules imposed by the ncaa on both business sports and activity sports.

Without the ncaa cartel, folks would have long since figured out that P5 football = commerce. And field hockey team = debate team (i.e. student activity).

And if football does not fund the debate team, why is football required to fund the field hockey team?

Bidness is bidness.

And for those of us who think that athletics are intrinsically important educationally, at many schools this is likely to mean a whole lot less such opportunities to compete in a sport as part of the overall educational experience.

Interestingly, programs that currently have large commitments in no or low revenue sports, under such educational philosophy, and do so without big revenue sports, may actually benefit by comparison if the big revenue sports starve the rest. Such schools typically fund the 'debate' team and a myriad of A cappella groups and...these schools see these as all enriching education.

That said, we've seen a growing reliance on direct alumni support for specific programs, so this may become even more important going forward.

Basically, if a sport can't raise the dough to support its continuation at a school, tough.

How does this all impact Title IX objectives?

[ggait]

Of course.

Alabama's athletic department sponsors 773 roster spots.

Williams has 904. Harvard has 1,242.

The overwhelming majority of college athletes are in D3, D2, non-P5 D1.

There's no reason that schools could not continue to sponsor tons of varsity sports after the $$$ sports are separated off and run more like the businesses that they really are. In fact, it could be an overall boon to non-revenue (i.e. participation) sports.

The $$$ arms race in non-revenue sports at P5 schools exists primarily because the P5 schools have to find somewhere to spend all that revenue coming in from football and hoops. Which, basically, is all the money that the schools do NOT pay the football and hoops players.

Lacrosse, wrestling, softball, cross country etc. all could thrive in D1 (like they do in D2 and D3) once you get rid of the gold plating that is used to justify not paying the $$$ players. "Oh we can't afford to pay the football players because we need the football $$$ to fund scholarships and expensive coaches and A+++ facilities for the field hockey team."

As you point out, there's no shortage of acapella squads and debate teams on today's college campuses. No reason you couldn't have lots more mlax teams in D1...but only after you moved past the P5 pretextual conceit that you need to operate the non-revenue sports at the same level as the $$$ sports. Non-revenue sports can/should travel by bus and play in regional conferences. Airplanes and national conferences should only be for the $$$ sports.

[coda]

Of course.

Alabama's athletic department sponsors 773 roster spots.

Williams has 904. Harvard has 1,242.

The overwhelming majority of college athletes are in D3, D2, non-P5 D1.

There's no reason that schools could not continue to sponsor tons of varsity sports after the $$$ sports are separated off and run more like the businesses that they really are. In fact, it could be an overall boon to non-revenue (i.e. participation) sports.

The $$$ arms race in non-revenue sports at P5 schools exists primarily because the P5 schools have to find somewhere to spend all that revenue coming in from football and hoops. Which, basically, is all the money that the schools do NOT pay the football and hoops players.

Lacrosse, wrestling, softball, cross country etc. all could thrive in D1 (like they do in D2 and D3) once you get rid of the gold plating that is used to justify not paying the $$$ players. "Oh we can't afford to pay the football players because we need the football $$$ to fund scholarships and expensive coaches and A+++ facilities for the field hockey team."

As you point out, there's no shortage of acapella squads and debate teams on today's college campuses. No reason you couldn't have lots more mlax teams in D1...but only after you moved past the P5 pretextual conceit that you need to operate the non-revenue sports at the same level as the $$$ sports. Non-revenue sports can/should travel by bus and play in regional conferences. Airplanes and national conferences should only be for the $$$ sports.

I have long argued that. Football and Basketball should have there own conferences. The rest really do not need to be involved. They much better off forming regional conference.

[Chousnake]

Of course.

Alabama's athletic department sponsors 773 roster spots.

Williams has 904. Harvard has 1,242.

The overwhelming majority of college athletes are in D3, D2, non-P5 D1.

There's no reason that schools could not continue to sponsor tons of varsity sports after the $$$ sports are separated off and run more like the businesses that they really are. In fact, it could be an overall boon to non-revenue (i.e. participation) sports.

The $$$ arms race in non-revenue sports at P5 schools exists primarily because the P5 schools have to find somewhere to spend all that revenue coming in from football and hoops. Which, basically, is all the money that the schools do NOT pay the football and hoops players.

Lacrosse, wrestling, softball, cross country etc. all could thrive in D1 (like they do in D2 and D3) once you get rid of the gold plating that is used to justify not paying the $$$ players. "Oh we can't afford to pay the football players because we need the football $$$ to fund scholarships and expensive coaches and A+++ facilities for the field hockey team."

As you point out, there's no shortage of acapella squads and debate teams on today's college campuses. No reason you couldn't have lots more mlax teams in D1...but only after you moved past the P5 pretextual conceit that you need to operate the non-revenue sports at the same level as the $$$ sports. Non-revenue sports can/should travel by bus and play in regional conferences. Airplanes and national conferences should only be for the $$$ sports.

I have long argued that. Football and Basketball should have there own conferences. The rest really do not need to be involved. They much better off forming regional conference.

P5 college football is slowly ruining college sports for the fans and athletes.

[coda]

Of course.

Alabama's athletic department sponsors 773 roster spots.

Williams has 904. Harvard has 1,242.

The overwhelming majority of college athletes are in D3, D2, non-P5 D1.

There's no reason that schools could not continue to sponsor tons of varsity sports after the $$$ sports are separated off and run more like the businesses that they really are. In fact, it could be an overall boon to non-revenue (i.e. participation) sports.

The $$$ arms race in non-revenue sports at P5 schools exists primarily because the P5 schools have to find somewhere to spend all that revenue coming in from football and hoops. Which, basically, is all the money that the schools do NOT pay the football and hoops players.

Lacrosse, wrestling, softball, cross country etc. all could thrive in D1 (like they do in D2 and D3) once you get rid of the gold plating that is used to justify not paying the $$$ players. "Oh we can't afford to pay the football players because we need the football $$$ to fund scholarships and expensive coaches and A+++ facilities for the field hockey team."

As you point out, there's no shortage of acapella squads and debate teams on today's college campuses. No reason you couldn't have lots more mlax teams in D1...but only after you moved past the P5 pretextual conceit that you need to operate the non-revenue sports at the same level as the $$$ sports. Non-revenue sports can/should travel by bus and play in regional conferences. Airplanes and national conferences should only be for the $$$ sports.

I have long argued that. Football and Basketball should have there own conferences. The rest really do not need to be involved. They much better off forming regional conference.

P5 college football is slowly ruining college sports for the fans and athletes.

Just my opinion, but the portal is the biggest issue in college sports.

NIL has just caused fans to lose their innocence. Paying players goes all the way back to Walter Camp and his slush fund to buy players in teh alte 1800s. It was one thing to believe teams were cheating and paying players, now you know it is fact they pay kids to play.

[Chousnake]

Of course.

Alabama's athletic department sponsors 773 roster spots.

Williams has 904. Harvard has 1,242.

The overwhelming majority of college athletes are in D3, D2, non-P5 D1.

There's no reason that schools could not continue to sponsor tons of varsity sports after the $$$ sports are separated off and run more like the businesses that they really are. In fact, it could be an overall boon to non-revenue (i.e. participation) sports.

The $$$ arms race in non-revenue sports at P5 schools exists primarily because the P5 schools have to find somewhere to spend all that revenue coming in from football and hoops. Which, basically, is all the money that the schools do NOT pay the football and hoops players.

Lacrosse, wrestling, softball, cross country etc. all could thrive in D1 (like they do in D2 and D3) once you get rid of the gold plating that is used to justify not paying the $$$ players. "Oh we can't afford to pay the football players because we need the football $$$ to fund scholarships and expensive coaches and A+++ facilities for the field hockey team."

As you point out, there's no shortage of acapella squads and debate teams on today's college campuses. No reason you couldn't have lots more mlax teams in D1...but only after you moved past the P5 pretextual conceit that you need to operate the non-revenue sports at the same level as the $$$ sports. Non-revenue sports can/should travel by bus and play in regional conferences. Airplanes and national conferences should only be for the $$$ sports.

I have long argued that. Football and Basketball should have there own conferences. The rest really do not need to be involved. They much better off forming regional conference.

P5 college football is slowly ruining college sports for the fans and athletes.

Just my opinion, but the portal is the biggest issue in college sports.

NIL has just caused fans to lose their innocence. Paying players goes all the way back to Walter Camp and his slush fund to buy players in teh alte 1800s. It was one thing to believe teams were cheating and paying players, now you know it is fact they pay kids to play.

I hate the portal too. But t's not just that. The conference re-alignments of the past 15 years have all been football related. And those re-alignments are negatively impacting other sports, including basketball. Football ruined Big East basketball. And making athletes in other sports besides football travel ridiculous distances to play conference games has become absurd. The Big 10 will have west coast college athletes traveling to the east coast to play games vs Maryland, Rutgers, Penn State.

The portal yields some bad results for athletes as well. Unless an athlete is going to parlay a college sport into a pro career playing that sport, transferring schools just to improve playing time doesn't make sense to me. As I learned a long time ago when my son was being recruited, most college athletes are college students who play a sport, not an athlete who is going to college. Pick a college for the entire educational and student experience with your first priority to get a degree. And the portal stinks for players who lose an opportunity to play because a transfer is brought in. If I'm a high school lax player, I think twice about picking a team that is active in the portal.

[1766]

Of course.

Alabama's athletic department sponsors 773 roster spots.

Williams has 904. Harvard has 1,242.

The overwhelming majority of college athletes are in D3, D2, non-P5 D1.

There's no reason that schools could not continue to sponsor tons of varsity sports after the $$$ sports are separated off and run more like the businesses that they really are. In fact, it could be an overall boon to non-revenue (i.e. participation) sports.

The $$$ arms race in non-revenue sports at P5 schools exists primarily because the P5 schools have to find somewhere to spend all that revenue coming in from football and hoops. Which, basically, is all the money that the schools do NOT pay the football and hoops players.

Lacrosse, wrestling, softball, cross country etc. all could thrive in D1 (like they do in D2 and D3) once you get rid of the gold plating that is used to justify not paying the $$$ players. "Oh we can't afford to pay the football players because we need the football $$$ to fund scholarships and expensive coaches and A+++ facilities for the field hockey team."

As you point out, there's no shortage of acapella squads and debate teams on today's college campuses. No reason you couldn't have lots more mlax teams in D1...but only after you moved past the P5 pretextual conceit that you need to operate the non-revenue sports at the same level as the $$$ sports. Non-revenue sports can/should travel by bus and play in regional conferences. Airplanes and national conferences should only be for the $$$ sports.

I have long argued that. Football and Basketball should have there own conferences. The rest really do not need to be involved. They much better off forming regional conference.

P5 college football is slowly ruining college sports for the fans and athletes.

Just my opinion, but the portal is the biggest issue in college sports.

NIL has just caused fans to lose their innocence. Paying players goes all the way back to Walter Camp and his slush fund to buy players in teh alte 1800s. It was one thing to believe teams were cheating and paying players, now you know it is fact they pay kids to play.

I hate the portal too. But t's not just that. The conference re-alignments of the past 15 years have all been football related. And those re-alignments are negatively impacting other sports, including basketball. Football ruined Big East basketball. And making athletes in other sports besides football travel ridiculous distances to play conference games has become absurd. The Big 10 will have west coast college athletes traveling to the east coast to play games vs Maryland, Rutgers, Penn State.

The portal yields some bad results for athletes as well. Unless an athlete is going to parlay a college sport into a pro career playing that sport, transferring schools just to improve playing time doesn't make sense to me. As I learned a long time ago when my son was being recruited, most college athletes are college students who play a sport, not an athlete who is going to college. Pick a college for the entire educational and student experience with your first priority to get a degree. And the portal stinks for players who lose an opportunity to play because a transfer is brought in. If I'm a high school lax player, I think twice about picking a team that is active in the portal.

The only teams not active in the portal now are teams that can't use the portal or can't get players from the portal.

[ggait]

The solution to the portal in $$$ sports is the same solution that could be used to restructure all other aspects of $$$ sports.

If the ncaa imposes portal restrictions, that’s illegal under anti trust law.

If the ncaa agrees to new portal restrictions as part of a cba negotiated with a player union, 100% legal. Because unions and union agreements are exempt from anti trust.

Unless Congress intervenes, a player union is the only solution.

[Farfromgeneva]

Of course.

Alabama's athletic department sponsors 773 roster spots.

Williams has 904. Harvard has 1,242.

The overwhelming majority of college athletes are in D3, D2, non-P5 D1.

There's no reason that schools could not continue to sponsor tons of varsity sports after the $$$ sports are separated off and run more like the businesses that they really are. In fact, it could be an overall boon to non-revenue (i.e. participation) sports.

The $$$ arms race in non-revenue sports at P5 schools exists primarily because the P5 schools have to find somewhere to spend all that revenue coming in from football and hoops. Which, basically, is all the money that the schools do NOT pay the football and hoops players.

Lacrosse, wrestling, softball, cross country etc. all could thrive in D1 (like they do in D2 and D3) once you get rid of the gold plating that is used to justify not paying the $$$ players. "Oh we can't afford to pay the football players because we need the football $$$ to fund scholarships and expensive coaches and A+++ facilities for the field hockey team."

As you point out, there's no shortage of acapella squads and debate teams on today's college campuses. No reason you couldn't have lots more mlax teams in D1...but only after you moved past the P5 pretextual conceit that you need to operate the non-revenue sports at the same level as the $$$ sports. Non-revenue sports can/should travel by bus and play in regional conferences. Airplanes and national conferences should only be for the $$$ sports.

I have long argued that. Football and Basketball should have there own conferences. The rest really do not need to be involved. They much better off forming regional conference.

P5 college football is slowly ruining college sports for the fans and athletes.

I think everyone misses the inertia of political institutional economics which is that it will be a race to the games that appeal to the
Marginal fan nationally to the broadest audience. This means in hindsight now that it was always a machine that was heading for only the marquee national matchups. Which means pulling in Rutgers and MD and Nev for the big ten will
Ultimately be long term dilutive but it ends up with one amorphous league and this conference self congratulating is all laughable nonsense because its program specific national matchups that have value and the rest is filler.

[Farfromgeneva]

Of course.

Alabama's athletic department sponsors 773 roster spots.

Williams has 904. Harvard has 1,242.

The overwhelming majority of college athletes are in D3, D2, non-P5 D1.

There's no reason that schools could not continue to sponsor tons of varsity sports after the $$$ sports are separated off and run more like the businesses that they really are. In fact, it could be an overall boon to non-revenue (i.e. participation) sports.

The $$$ arms race in non-revenue sports at P5 schools exists primarily because the P5 schools have to find somewhere to spend all that revenue coming in from football and hoops. Which, basically, is all the money that the schools do NOT pay the football and hoops players.

Lacrosse, wrestling, softball, cross country etc. all could thrive in D1 (like they do in D2 and D3) once you get rid of the gold plating that is used to justify not paying the $$$ players. "Oh we can't afford to pay the football players because we need the football $$$ to fund scholarships and expensive coaches and A+++ facilities for the field hockey team."

As you point out, there's no shortage of acapella squads and debate teams on today's college campuses. No reason you couldn't have lots more mlax teams in D1...but only after you moved past the P5 pretextual conceit that you need to operate the non-revenue sports at the same level as the $$$ sports. Non-revenue sports can/should travel by bus and play in regional conferences. Airplanes and national conferences should only be for the $$$ sports.

I have long argued that. Football and Basketball should have there own conferences. The rest really do not need to be involved. They much better off forming regional conference.

P5 college football is slowly ruining college sports for the fans and athletes.

Just my opinion, but the portal is the biggest issue in college sports.

NIL has just caused fans to lose their innocence. Paying players goes all the way back to Walter Camp and his slush fund to buy players in teh alte 1800s. It was one thing to believe teams were cheating and paying players, now you know it is fact they pay kids to play.

NIL caused fans to lose their innocence. Man talk about a lack of accountability for fans meaning us all.

We’ve all been willfully ignorant and not innocent in a long time. Fans of sports of any kind but especially money sports looked the other way since before I was born. Let’s finger point at a terribly inelegant solution to support student athletes rather than our own responsibly for this outcome.

Sounds like when my wife tells me I make her mad as if she and her general anger has no agency in it at all…

[AreaLax]

Looks like the possible for lacrosse to increase the current scholarship from 12.6 could happen this week

https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-ncaa-t ... 00598.html

[coda]

Looks like the possible for lacrosse to increase the current scholarship from 12.6 could happen this week

https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-ncaa-t ... 00598.html

This not good for Men’s lacrosse expansion. Great for women’s. Added a bunch of net scholarships to the men. Title 9 going to be an issue for a lot of schools

[laxpert]

Last paragraph sums it up.

To maintain compliance with the federal Title IX law, any scholarship increases in a men’s sport will likely need to be replicated in a women’s sport, driving up the additional costs. But not all programs can afford to add so many additional scholarships. Some administrators are in the process of “tiering” their sports by decreasing investment on certain programs and increasing investment in others. This includes staff and salary cuts as well as the reduction in scholarships from Olympic sports, especially those that generate little to no revenue.

If D1 expansion wasn't already dead and buried it has now been placed in the Chernobyl sarcophagus. Toss in male enrollment declining to below 40 percent....
If I read this correctly a "one up team" like Hopkins could now offer 30 full rides if the Women's team offered 30 full rides and still be in compliance. It would be easier for JHU since they're not offsetting 105 Football Rides.

[a fan]

Last paragraph sums it up.

To maintain compliance with the federal Title IX law, any scholarship increases in a men’s sport will likely need to be replicated in a women’s sport, driving up the additional costs. But not all programs can afford to add so many additional scholarships. Some administrators are in the process of “tiering” their sports by decreasing investment on certain programs and increasing investment in others. This includes staff and salary cuts as well as the reduction in scholarships from Olympic sports, especially those that generate little to no revenue.

If D1 expansion wasn't already dead and buried it has now been placed in the Chernobyl sarcophagus. Toss in male enrollment declining to below 40 percent....
If I read this correctly a "one up team" like Hopkins could now offer 30 full rides if the Women's team offered 30 full rides and still be in compliance. It would be easier for JHU since they're not offsetting 105 Football Rides.

It's all temporary. Until we get a Union and a collective bargaining agreement, all this is a wet band aid that can fall off at any moment.

As of right now, the SCOTUS ruled the NCAA can't collude to cap compensation. Scholarships are compensation. And it will take YEARS to form a Union, and sign a Collective Bargaining Agreement.

If the NCAA tries to punish a school or athlete for having too many scholarships...the student can sue, and will win. You can't tell someone in America how much they are allowed to make for their work. The ONLY exception is in collective bargaining agreements.

The NCAA is hanging on by a thread. And no, I'm not a lawyer.....so take this with that in mind.