Religion in America

[jhu72]

While waiting for PizzaSnake’s response I’ll put this out there. I’m no Walter Martin. I don’t have all the answers to all the questions about what’s written in the Bible. I’ll try to answer them as best I can but again—I’m no scholar or expert.

Obviously not all professing Christians make Jesus look good. But I can’t judge and/or condemn them. I have to give an account of myself one Day so who am I to judge? Jesus forbad it anyway. In what has come to be known as the Sermon on the Mount, which is mainly encapsulated in chapters 5, 6 and 7 of Matthew’s gospel, Jesus said,

“Do not judge lest you be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you." Matthew 7.1, 2

The only standard of measure I want, indeed, can stand to be measured by, given my past, is mercy (Matthew 5.7), so I can’t look at another person who calls themself a Christian and lives and/or acts in apparent contradiction to Scripture and condemn them. Only God knows what goes on in a persons heart, or where they are at this stage of their lives. The apostle Paul was in the midst of a hateful, misguided, ignorant campaign against Christians before Jesus set him straight and turned his life around (Acts 9). King David committed adultery and killed the woman's husband to cover up his sin--yet God forgave him after he repented (2 Samuel 12.13). Can I condemn particular actions that are sinful? Of course. We all can. It’s wrong to cheat on one’s spouse. It’s wrong to lie. It's wrong to kill another human being. It’s wrong to do a whole host of things enumerated in the Bible. The sin itself is condemnable. The person, certainly by me, or any other human being, is not.

I also don't do well with a number of questions all at once. Too much for this aging, soon-to-be 62 year old brain. It works best with one at a time. Again, I won’t be able to answer every question. No one can except the Author Himself. But I’m happy to try to explain what my understanding is from what I read, and have read in the Bible. If folks want to put one question to me at a time, in a respectful manner, I’ll try to answer in kind.

Finally, I don’t do well with insults. I don’t know anyone who does. The older I get, the less I want to engage with anyone who is nasty and/or insulting--so I am choosing more and more not to. There are some posters here who have burned their bridges with nastiness, insults or smears once too often for me to respond to them any longer--or at least at this point in my life. I'm grateful Matnum chose to include the Ignore feature for this forum. I have enough nasty condemning words from myself and others from my past rolling around in my heart and mind to struggle with. I don't have room for more.

So again--if folks want to pose questions, one question at a time, in a respectful, civil manner--I am happy to try to respond.

+1 When you start defending Christianity on this forum the FLP hate mongers will bring out their long knives and verbally eviscerate you. They will NEVER come strait out and admit it but they intensely despise Christians and Christianity in principle. That explains their hatred towards those folks they define as their arch enemy...WHITE NATIONALIST CHRISTIANS.

Cradle, do you jump to these conclusions just to increase the volume and aggressiveness of discussion? Please tell me you know our Constitution requires freedom of religion, and that "white nationalist" differentiates that specific group of Christians from others.

You can’t even fill a stadium full of white nationalists in this country. That’s why the left has to fake every hate crime. If white nationalism exists at a large scale, why do you all have to fake racism? The biggest racists in this country are Democrats. Proven time and again. It never fails.

Actually white Christian nationalism does exist on a large scale, which is exactly why nobody has to fake racism.

https://www.prri.org/research/support-f ... 50-states/

That'll just be ignored. Don't let facts and respectable studies get in the way, right Petey? Wouldn't make for good trolling.

No it doesn’t. That’s laughable. The most violent crime is committed overwhelmingly per capita by minority groups to each other and to whites. Not the other way around. This is what cultism looks like. You’re in a cult.

... bullsh*t Mr. Goebbels

Based on 2019 FBI Data / AI query of 2019 FBI murder database:
Query returned in per capita (100,000)

Race of Victim:
White victims: 3,299 murders
Black or African American victims: 2,906 murders
Other race victims: 247 murders
Unknown race victims: 126 murders

Race of Offender:
White offenders: 2,594 murders (perpetrated against white victims) --- 2594 / 3299 = 77.3% of White on White murder
Black or African American offenders: 246 murders (perpetrated against black victims) --- 246 / 2906 = 8.5% of Black on Black murder
Other race offenders: 57 murders (perpetrated against other race victims)
Unknown race offenders: 51 murders

Ethnicity of Victim:
Hispanic or Latino victims: 987 murders
Not Hispanic or Latino victims: 4,205 murders
Unknown ethnicity victims: 1,386 murders

Ethnicity of Offender:
Hispanic or Latino offenders: 759 murders (perpetrated against Hispanic or Latino victims) --- 759 / 987 = 76.9% of Hispanic on Hispanic murder
Not Hispanic or Latino offenders: 1,681 murders (perpetrated against non-Hispanic or Latino victims)
Unknown ethnicity offenders: 508 murders(1).

[Typical Lax Dad]

People kill other people they see and come in contact with every day.

White on White
Black on Black
Asian on Asian
Native on Native are on higher than inter-race. That’s how life is. Black on black murder rate is about 8% higher than white on white. Bandildo should know better.

[jhu72]

Republicans vs Christians in Arizona. It's about time.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7XzrbRM ... BiNWFlZA==

[Seacoaster(1)]

I can sort of remember when "religion" actually meant adherence to a body of personal convictions that organized the world and one's interactions with the world in a meaningful, charitable, loving way. Not we have Franklin Graham and the sham of religio-grifters at a political party's nominating convention:

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1814113770500755518

Just disgraceful.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I can sort of remember when "religion" actually meant adherence to a body of personal convictions that organized the world and one's interactions with the world in a meaningful, charitable, loving way. Not we have Franklin Graham and the sham of religio-grifters at a political party's nominating convention:

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1814113770500755518

Just disgraceful.

[PizzaSnake]

Republicans vs Christians in Arizona. It's about time.

What do you suppose this woman means by this?

"“Let’s pretend that this gentleman over here was running for county recorder, and he’s a good Christian man who believes what we believe.

“Well, we can work with that. That’s unity. That’s saying we’re going to shake hands and we’re going to agree that we’re going to run a good Christian-foundation campaign and we’re going to treat each other well. And we’re going to get through this together. That’s unity."

So, are all others she feels don't believe what she believes, whatever that may be, are not due respect and to be "treated well?"

She would lynch them? Is that a good Christian-foundation? WTAF is going on in this person's mind when they make a statement like that? She and her fellow travelers must have access to a different Bible than the one I'm familiar with.

The rot is deep.

[cradleandshoot]

Republicans vs Christians in Arizona. It's about time.

What do you suppose this woman means by this?

"“Let’s pretend that this gentleman over here was running for county recorder, and he’s a good Christian man who believes what we believe.

“Well, we can work with that. That’s unity. That’s saying we’re going to shake hands and we’re going to agree that we’re going to run a good Christian-foundation campaign and we’re going to treat each other well. And we’re going to get through this together. That’s unity."

So, are all others she feels don't believe what she believes, whatever that may be, are not due respect and to be "treated well?"

She would lynch them? Is that a good Christian-foundation? WTAF is going on in this person's mind when they make a statement like that? She and her fellow travelers must have access to a different Bible than the one I'm familiar with.

The rot is deep.

That is what happens when you want to put the fear of God in some one or something.

[Seacoaster(1)]

Republicans vs Christians in Arizona. It's about time.

What do you suppose this woman means by this?

"“Let’s pretend that this gentleman over here was running for county recorder, and he’s a good Christian man who believes what we believe.

“Well, we can work with that. That’s unity. That’s saying we’re going to shake hands and we’re going to agree that we’re going to run a good Christian-foundation campaign and we’re going to treat each other well. And we’re going to get through this together. That’s unity."

So, are all others she feels don't believe what she believes, whatever that may be, are not due respect and to be "treated well?"

She would lynch them? Is that a good Christian-foundation? WTAF is going on in this person's mind when they make a statement like that? She and her fellow travelers must have access to a different Bible than the one I'm familiar with.

The rot is deep.

It's not religion, really, is it? It is just a bunch of rules to belong in a club, and if you don't follow the rules, you get death threats. "A good Christian-foundation" -- believe, think, and do, as I do, or else. Religion always loses when it rubs up against or becomes part of politics.

[PizzaSnake]

Republicans vs Christians in Arizona. It's about time.

What do you suppose this woman means by this?

"“Let’s pretend that this gentleman over here was running for county recorder, and he’s a good Christian man who believes what we believe.

“Well, we can work with that. That’s unity. That’s saying we’re going to shake hands and we’re going to agree that we’re going to run a good Christian-foundation campaign and we’re going to treat each other well. And we’re going to get through this together. That’s unity."

So, are all others she feels don't believe what she believes, whatever that may be, are not due respect and to be "treated well?"

She would lynch them? Is that a good Christian-foundation? WTAF is going on in this person's mind when they make a statement like that? She and her fellow travelers must have access to a different Bible than the one I'm familiar with.

The rot is deep.

It's not religion, really, is it? It is just a bunch of rules to belong in a club, and if you don't follow the rules, you get death threats. "A good Christian-foundation" -- believe, think, and do, as I do, or else. Religion always loses when it rubs up against or becomes part of politics.

Actually, in my experience and opinion, religions are largely mechanisms of social control. Hard to say whether they are a net positive, but I have my suspicions.

The need for and employment of these mechanisms is revealing about the basic lack of cooperation present in humans. Doesn't bode well for a future that will demand cooperation and forbearance.

[Seacoaster(1)]

Republicans vs Christians in Arizona. It's about time.

What do you suppose this woman means by this?

"“Let’s pretend that this gentleman over here was running for county recorder, and he’s a good Christian man who believes what we believe.

“Well, we can work with that. That’s unity. That’s saying we’re going to shake hands and we’re going to agree that we’re going to run a good Christian-foundation campaign and we’re going to treat each other well. And we’re going to get through this together. That’s unity."

So, are all others she feels don't believe what she believes, whatever that may be, are not due respect and to be "treated well?"

She would lynch them? Is that a good Christian-foundation? WTAF is going on in this person's mind when they make a statement like that? She and her fellow travelers must have access to a different Bible than the one I'm familiar with.

The rot is deep.

It's not religion, really, is it? It is just a bunch of rules to belong in a club, and if you don't follow the rules, you get death threats. "A good Christian-foundation" -- believe, think, and do, as I do, or else. Religion always loses when it rubs up against or becomes part of politics.

Actually, in my experience and opinion, religions are largely mechanisms of social control. Hard to say whether they are a net positive, but I have my suspicions.

The need for and employment of these mechanisms is revealing about the basic lack of cooperation present in humans. Doesn't bode well for a future that will demand cooperation and forbearance.

Concur with all that.

[jhu72]

yup... religion has always been USED AS A means of control. That is not to say some good has not come out of religion, but IMO, the good has never been worth putting up with the rest of it. The good could have been accomplished without the bad.

[Seacoaster(1)]

Intolerant much?

https://religionnews.com/2024/07/22/bre ... ing-biden/

"The leader of the Southern Baptist Convention’s ethics and public policy entity was fired Monday (July 22), a day after he praised President Joe Biden’s decision to end his reelection bid.

“In accordance with our bylaws, the executive committee has removed Brent Leatherwood as president,” the executive committee of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission said in a statement Monday. “Further details, as well as plans for the transition, will be provided at our September board meeting.”

No details were given about why Leatherwood, who was named ERLC president in September 2022, was removed from his position. It is not clear whether the ERLC’s full board of trustees was asked to review the decision before it was made or why Leatherwood was fired. Leatherwood did not respond to a request for comment.

In a story on Biden’s withdrawal from the presidential race, Baptist Press, an official SBC publication, quoted Leatherwood saying Biden had done the right thing in ending his campaign.

“We should all express our appreciation that President Biden has put the needs of the nation above his personal ambition,” Leatherwood said. “Despite what some partisans will say, to walk away from power is a selfless act — the kind that has become all too rare in our culture.”

The two-sentence quote, posted on X by the official account of the ERLC, led to an online dust-up in which Leatherwood’s critics, who included Tom Ascol, pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Cape Coral, Florida, called Leatherwood to account for a number of his recent positions. Ascol is known as a firebrand even in the staunchly conservative SBC. In June he asked the delegates to the SBC’s annual meeting, the denomination’s governing body, to shutter the ERLC. His motion failed.

Ascol and other critics said Leatherwood has been too soft on the issue of abortion, citing Leatherwood’s opposition to legislation that would have jailed women who have abortions.

Leatherwood also called for gun law reforms after a shooting in March 2023 at a Nashville, Tennessee, Christian school where his children were students. He also criticized the GOP for dropping anti-abortion language from its platform.

Ascol praised the news that Leatherwood had been fired, mimicking Leatherwood’s praise for Biden.

Russell Moore, a former ERLC president who is now editor-in-chief at Christianity Today magazine, said he was stunned by the news of Leatherwood’s firing.

“Brent Leatherwood is a good man and a good ERLC president,” he said. “He and his family are worthy of better than this. And so are Southern Baptists.”

Moore also said it was odd to see the announcement of Leatherwood’s firing coming from the ERLC’s executive committee rather than the entire board. He could only recall that happening once before at an SBC entity, when Paige Patterson was fired for allegedly lying to the board of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Texas.

“This is disgraceful and shameful,” said Moore.

Leatherwood is the third consecutive ERLC president to leave office amid controversy. Moore resigned in 2021, after years of antagonism largely arising from his criticism of Donald Trump and Moore’s support of survivors of sexual abuse. His predecessor, Richard Land, retired after a plagiarism scandal."

[molo]

I’ll be 75 later this summer. Maybe religion wasn’t always bs, but I can’t remember when it didn’t seem like utter bs to me. I think I believed what the nuns told me in the first couple years of school and maybe have a little credence to what I was taught as an Episcopalian, but I definitely stopped believing in the mythology before I exited middle school. As you age, you experience deaths of people you are close to. I happened to see my share of people die I my career. Never once has a religious belief given my comfort in confronting death and dying. For those like my grandmother, a devout Seventh Day Adventist who great solace from her faith, religion can provide a genuine comfort in viewing the world,
No public funds, in my view, should support religious organizations. Let those who believe pay the bills. Leave the rest big us, about 35% of the US population, alone.

[jhu72]

I’ll be 75 later this summer. Maybe religion wasn’t always bs, but I can’t remember when it didn’t seem like utter bs to me. I think I believed what the nuns told me in the first couple years of school and maybe have a little credence to what I was taught as an Episcopalian, but I definitely stopped believing in the mythology before I exited middle school. As you age, you experience deaths of people you are close to. I happened to see my share of people die I my career. Never once has a religious belief given my comfort in confronting death and dying. For those like my grandmother, a devout Seventh Day Adventist who great solace from her faith, religion can provide a genuine comfort in viewing the world,
No public funds, in my view, should support religious organizations. Let those who believe pay the bills. Leave the rest big us, about 35% of the US population, alone.

35% and growing. We have conservative Christians to thank for that.

[MDlaxfan76]

I’ll be 75 later this summer. Maybe religion wasn’t always bs, but I can’t remember when it didn’t seem like utter bs to me. I think I believed what the nuns told me in the first couple years of school and maybe have a little credence to what I was taught as an Episcopalian, but I definitely stopped believing in the mythology before I exited middle school. As you age, you experience deaths of people you are close to. I happened to see my share of people die I my career. Never once has a religious belief given my comfort in confronting death and dying. For those like my grandmother, a devout Seventh Day Adventist who great solace from her faith, religion can provide a genuine comfort in viewing the world,
No public funds, in my view, should support religious organizations. Let those who believe pay the bills. Leave the rest big us, about 35% of the US population, alone.

35% and growing. We have conservative Christians to thank for that.

IMO, that's likely the chief reason, the so heavy insertion of politics with religion. We now see right wing politics superseding religious tenets. Downright idolatry of someone who so clearly violates key tenets of Christianity.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/20 ... t-decades/

https://www.prri.org/spotlight/prri-202 ... nd-trends/

I also think that formal religion and religiosity have become associated, particularly in younger Americans' perceptions, with things that are very distasteful, eg sexual predation (and institutional coverup) and terrorism.

We see quite clear 'values' gaps between formal, 'conservative' religious demands and younger Americans' own ethical values. However, that's not really new, as folks like my dad left the Catholic Church because of their stance in the '50's and '60's towards contraception... a precursor move to what we've seen in later periods with regard to abortion, gender, female priests, etc. And then the shock of understanding how gross and deep the institutional coverup of sexual predators in the clergy had been.

Much the same has happened in other "conservative" denominations, same dynamics of values gap and shock over coverups, whether sexual or financial.

It's not as if most young people don't have strong or clear ethical values, it's that they don't look to formal religious institutions to tell them what they should be.

[cradleandshoot]

I’ll be 75 later this summer. Maybe religion wasn’t always bs, but I can’t remember when it didn’t seem like utter bs to me. I think I believed what the nuns told me in the first couple years of school and maybe have a little credence to what I was taught as an Episcopalian, but I definitely stopped believing in the mythology before I exited middle school. As you age, you experience deaths of people you are close to. I happened to see my share of people die I my career. Never once has a religious belief given my comfort in confronting death and dying. For those like my grandmother, a devout Seventh Day Adventist who great solace from her faith, religion can provide a genuine comfort in viewing the world,
No public funds, in my view, should support religious organizations. Let those who believe pay the bills. Leave the rest big us, about 35% of the US population, alone.

35% and growing. We have conservative Christians to thank for that.

IMO, that's likely the chief reason, the so heavy insertion of politics with religion. We now see right wing politics superseding religious tenets. Downright idolatry of someone who so clearly violates key tenets of Christianity.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/20 ... t-decades/

https://www.prri.org/spotlight/prri-202 ... nd-trends/

I also think that formal religion and religiosity have become associated, particularly in younger Americans' perceptions, with things that are very distasteful, eg sexual predation (and institutional coverup) and terrorism.

We see quite clear 'values' gaps between formal, 'conservative' religious demands and younger Americans' own ethical values. However, that's not really new, as folks like my dad left the Catholic Church because of their stance in the '50's and '60's towards contraception... a precursor move to what we've seen in later periods with regard to abortion, gender, female priests, etc. And then the shock of understanding how gross and deep the institutional coverup of sexual predators in the clergy had been.

Much the same has happened in other "conservative" denominations, same dynamics of values gap and shock over coverups, whether sexual or financial.

It's not as if most young people don't have strong or clear ethical values, it's that they don't look to formal religious institutions to tell them what they should be.

Does the insertion of primarily left leaning black churches figure into your equation or does that mean I hate black people for even mentioning it? Black or white they represent Christian values do they not?

[molo]

We may not agree on much, but as a conservative you hit upon a key element of liberal hypocrisy. We liberals denigrate the role of evangelicals and conservative mainstream Christians in politics, but we applaud the role of the Black church in public affairs. It’s hypocritical.
There is a similar level of inconsistency around many liberals’ views on guns and drugs. We demand more laws to limit gun ownership because say loose gun laws breed violence. On the other hand, some of us, insisting that we can’t arrest our way out of the problem, insist that laws are not the solution to curtailing drug use. What we really mean is that guns are bad and grubs are ok, but we don’t really admit it.

[molo]

d

[molo]

Drugs, not grubs