American Educational System

[a fan]

Unfortunately I am not following this.

Vouchers are nothing more than a redirection of tax money into churches who run schools, and have the intended effect of killing the public school system as those behind it want education privatized (better to make money from it) and into religious hands as much as possible to allow the bending of education from truth and science to junk education that tells their students lies about the nature of the world.

Please provide some basis for this, RedFromMI.

It's just math....if taxpayer dollars go to a Church for students, that means those same dollars aren't going to public schools.

So the Church schools get pumped full of money, and the public schools have less. No citation needed. Just math.

This is what Church's want, obviously: kill any competition, and get rich by doing it.

We must be talking about two different educational settings. I am a big fan of charter schools that are based in low socio-economic areas, like New York City that provide an opportunity for students to get a valued education. Vouchers for religious schools are a different story.

Well, perhaps clarify what you mean so we're not talking past each other.

Voucher to go......where, exactly? A private school? A different public school?

[KI Dock Bar]

Unfortunately I am not following this.

Vouchers are nothing more than a redirection of tax money into churches who run schools, and have the intended effect of killing the public school system as those behind it want education privatized (better to make money from it) and into religious hands as much as possible to allow the bending of education from truth and science to junk education that tells their students lies about the nature of the world.

Please provide some basis for this, RedFromMI.

It's just math....if taxpayer dollars go to a Church for students, that means those same dollars aren't going to public schools.

So the Church schools get pumped full of money, and the public schools have less. No citation needed. Just math.

This is what Church's want, obviously: kill any competition, and get rich by doing it.

We must be talking about two different educational settings. I am a big fan of charter schools that are based in low socio-economic areas, like New York City that provide an opportunity for students to get a valued education. Vouchers for religious schools are a different story.

Well, perhaps clarify what you mean so we're not talking past each other.

Voucher to go......where, exactly? A private school? A different public school?

I guess my question is where are vouchers being used for students to attend religious schools?

[a fan]

Unfortunately I am not following this.

Vouchers are nothing more than a redirection of tax money into churches who run schools, and have the intended effect of killing the public school system as those behind it want education privatized (better to make money from it) and into religious hands as much as possible to allow the bending of education from truth and science to junk education that tells their students lies about the nature of the world.

Please provide some basis for this, RedFromMI.

It's just math....if taxpayer dollars go to a Church for students, that means those same dollars aren't going to public schools.

So the Church schools get pumped full of money, and the public schools have less. No citation needed. Just math.

This is what Church's want, obviously: kill any competition, and get rich by doing it.

We must be talking about two different educational settings. I am a big fan of charter schools that are based in low socio-economic areas, like New York City that provide an opportunity for students to get a valued education. Vouchers for religious schools are a different story.

Well, perhaps clarify what you mean so we're not talking past each other.

Voucher to go......where, exactly? A private school? A different public school?

I guess my question is where are vouchers being used for students to attend religious schools?

Several States. Billions of dollars. Are you a WaPo subscriber?.....the best piece is here.....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... s-schools/

Billions in taxpayer dollars now go to religious schools via vouchers

[PizzaSnake]

Unfortunately I am not following this.

Vouchers are nothing more than a redirection of tax money into churches who run schools, and have the intended effect of killing the public school system as those behind it want education privatized (better to make money from it) and into religious hands as much as possible to allow the bending of education from truth and science to junk education that tells their students lies about the nature of the world.

Please provide some basis for this, RedFromMI.

It's just math....if taxpayer dollars go to a Church for students, that means those same dollars aren't going to public schools.

So the Church schools get pumped full of money, and the public schools have less. No citation needed. Just math.

This is what Church's want, obviously: kill any competition, and get rich by doing it.

We must be talking about two different educational settings. I am a big fan of charter schools that are based in low socio-economic areas, like New York City that provide an opportunity for students to get a valued education. Vouchers for religious schools are a different story.

Well, perhaps clarify what you mean so we're not talking past each other.

Voucher to go......where, exactly? A private school? A different public school?

I guess my question is where are vouchers being used for students to attend religious schools?

Several States. Billions of dollars. Are you a WaPo subscriber?.....the best piece is here.....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... s-schools/

Billions in taxpayer dollars now go to religious schools via vouchers

Religio-idi-ocracy.

What could possibly go wrong here? I mean, who doesn't appreciate a different perspective? Sure the earth is flat, sure people co-existed with dinosaurs, sure 1+1=1...

[RedFromMI]

Gift link to article above:

https://wapo.st/4cHpATN

[KI Dock Bar]

Gift link to article above:

https://wapo.st/4cHpATN

Thank you! I would never be a proponent of providing tax money to middle/upper class families who wish to send their children to a private/religious school. Although, every day in my capacity as a public school teacher I understand why the parents are going to do it if the possibility exist. My wife, also a public school teacher, and I worked summer jobs and refinanced our mortgage a number of times to send our two children to catholic schools. Both of them attended for 8 of their 13 years. Parents of children who are low wage earners and in failing schools should have a way out.

[a fan]

Gift link to article above:

https://wapo.st/4cHpATN

Thank you! I would never be a proponent of providing tax money to middle/upper class families who wish to send their children to a private/religious school. Although, every day in my capacity as a public school teacher I understand why the parents are going to do it if the possibility exist. My wife, also a public school teacher, and I worked summer jobs and refinanced our mortgage a number of times to send our two children to catholic schools. Both of them attended for 8 of their 13 years. Parents of children who are low wage earners and in failing schools should have a way out.

Interesting. Maybe you need to define "failing schools" for me.

Can you do that? What does failing school mean to you?

[KI Dock Bar]

I teach in Maryland and this is the state comprehensive test the public school system uses to evaluate student success. These results are from the 2022-23 school year. In all fairness, we are still recovering from the COVID-19 effect. Regardless, Baltimore City is on the bottom of every tested area. I submit that families that live in Baltimore City should have the opportunity I am speaking about.

https://www.marylandpublicschools.org/s ... esults.pdf

Statewide Baltimore City
Page Subject Grade % Proficient % Proficient
11 EL 3-8 47% 25%
17 English 10 54% 31%
25 Math 3-8 25% 9%
52 Science 5 34.5% 11.7%
57 Science 8 26.4% 8.7%

When I worked at Loyola HS in Towson back in the 90's, which is just north of Baltimore, there was the St. Ignatius Academy that educated young men in Baltimore City who were provided a free catholic school education at Loyola. Talk about putting your money where your mouth is!

[KI Dock Bar]

I teach in Maryland and this is the state comprehensive test the public school system uses to evaluate student success. These results are from the 2022-23 school year. In all fairness, we are still recovering from the COVID-19 effect. Regardless, Baltimore City is on the bottom of every tested area. I submit that families that live in Baltimore City should have the opportunity I am speaking about.

https://www.marylandpublicschools.org/s ... esults.pdf

Statewide Baltimore City
Page Subject Grade % Proficient % Proficient
11 EL 3-8 47% 25%
17 English 10 54% 31%
25 Math 3-8 25% 9%
52 Science 5 34.5% 11.7%
57 Science 8 26.4% 8.7%

When I worked at Loyola HS in Towson back in the 90's, which is just north of Baltimore, there was the St. Ignatius Academy that educated young men in Baltimore City who were provided a free catholic school education at Loyola. Talk about putting your money where your mouth is!

Here you go:
https://www.saintignatius.org/

[a fan]

I teach in Maryland and this is the state comprehensive test the public school system uses to evaluate student success. These results are from the 2022-23 school year. In all fairness, we are still recovering from the COVID-19 effect. Regardless, Baltimore City is on the bottom of every tested area. I submit that families that live in Baltimore City should have the opportunity I am speaking about.

https://www.marylandpublicschools.org/s ... esults.pdf

Statewide Baltimore City
Page Subject Grade % Proficient % Proficient
11 EL 3-8 47% 25%
17 English 10 54% 31%
25 Math 3-8 25% 9%
52 Science 5 34.5% 11.7%
57 Science 8 26.4% 8.7%

When I worked at Loyola HS in Towson back in the 90's, which is just north of Baltimore, there was the St. Ignatius Academy that educated young men in Baltimore City who were provided a free catholic school education at Loyola. Talk about putting your money where your mouth is!

Ok...so now that I understand what you're advocating.

I'm on board with school choice vouchers, with one addition: you let the poor choose first.

So Loyola and the MIAA schools fill first. And the failing schools are filled with the rich kids, since they pick last.

Do that? And I'm 100% behind this. THAT is school choice.

Otherwise, what's happening is that Loyola gets to sort who they teach----rich kids, with a few specially gifted poor kids. They don't have to handle at risk, special needs, or underachievers. And the kids don't have to deal with the poor neighborhoods that surround the "failing schools".

But if you let the poor kid pick first, and pay for all transportation needs? I'd LOVE to see inner city kids fill MIAA schools.

[KI Dock Bar]

I teach in Maryland and this is the state comprehensive test the public school system uses to evaluate student success. These results are from the 2022-23 school year. In all fairness, we are still recovering from the COVID-19 effect. Regardless, Baltimore City is on the bottom of every tested area. I submit that families that live in Baltimore City should have the opportunity I am speaking about.

https://www.marylandpublicschools.org/s ... esults.pdf

Statewide Baltimore City
Page Subject Grade % Proficient % Proficient
11 EL 3-8 47% 25%
17 English 10 54% 31%
25 Math 3-8 25% 9%
52 Science 5 34.5% 11.7%
57 Science 8 26.4% 8.7%

When I worked at Loyola HS in Towson back in the 90's, which is just north of Baltimore, there was the St. Ignatius Academy that educated young men in Baltimore City who were provided a free catholic school education at Loyola. Talk about putting your money where your mouth is!

Ok...so now that I understand what you're advocating.

I'm on board with school choice vouchers, with one addition: you let the poor choose first.

So Loyola and the MIAA schools fill first. And the failing schools are filled with the rich kids, since they pick last.

Do that? And I'm 100% behind this. THAT is school choice.

Otherwise, what's happening is that Loyola gets to sort who they teach----rich kids, with a few specially gifted poor kids. They don't have to handle at risk, special needs, or underachievers. And the kids don't have to deal with the poor neighborhoods that surround the "failing schools".

But if you let the poor kid pick first, and pay for all transportation needs? I'd LOVE to see inner city kids fill MIAA schools.

Loyola Blakefield is a private catholic school under the direction of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, of course they get to choose who they admit, like any other private school. The fact that they have a free school in Baltimore City that provides the opportunity for under privileged young men to get a valued catholic education should be celebrated. Please share the other schools in the Baltimore area that have such a program.

[a fan]

I teach in Maryland and this is the state comprehensive test the public school system uses to evaluate student success. These results are from the 2022-23 school year. In all fairness, we are still recovering from the COVID-19 effect. Regardless, Baltimore City is on the bottom of every tested area. I submit that families that live in Baltimore City should have the opportunity I am speaking about.

https://www.marylandpublicschools.org/s ... esults.pdf

Statewide Baltimore City
Page Subject Grade % Proficient % Proficient
11 EL 3-8 47% 25%
17 English 10 54% 31%
25 Math 3-8 25% 9%
52 Science 5 34.5% 11.7%
57 Science 8 26.4% 8.7%

When I worked at Loyola HS in Towson back in the 90's, which is just north of Baltimore, there was the St. Ignatius Academy that educated young men in Baltimore City who were provided a free catholic school education at Loyola. Talk about putting your money where your mouth is!

Ok...so now that I understand what you're advocating.

I'm on board with school choice vouchers, with one addition: you let the poor choose first.

So Loyola and the MIAA schools fill first. And the failing schools are filled with the rich kids, since they pick last.

Do that? And I'm 100% behind this. THAT is school choice.

Otherwise, what's happening is that Loyola gets to sort who they teach----rich kids, with a few specially gifted poor kids. They don't have to handle at risk, special needs, or underachievers. And the kids don't have to deal with the poor neighborhoods that surround the "failing schools".

But if you let the poor kid pick first, and pay for all transportation needs? I'd LOVE to see inner city kids fill MIAA schools.

Loyola Blakefield is a private catholic school under the direction of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, of course they get to choose who they admit, like any other private school. The fact that they have a free school in Baltimore City that provides the opportunity for under privileged young men to get a valued catholic education should be celebrated. Please share the other schools in the Baltimore area that have such a program.

We're talking past each other. I'm not throwing stones at Loyola. At all. That's a separate conversation. Yes, it's wonderful they are handing out scholarships, no argument there.

We're discussing (or what I thought we were discussing) was school choice, and allowing kids to use vouchers to attend the school of their choice.

[KI Dock Bar]

My apologies if I was sounding snarky. I believe that the students in struggling schools which are typically in urban areas should have the ability to use vouchers to attend schools that provide more structure and the ability for those students to succeed.

[a fan]

My apologies if I was sounding snarky. I believe that the students in struggling schools which are typically in urban areas should have the ability to use vouchers to attend schools that provide more structure and the ability for those students to succeed.

No apology needed-----it's pretty much impossible to not have misunderstandings on a forum. My apologies, too, if I came across as snarky.

To speak to your direct point above, I don't believe there is such thing as a "failing school".

In other words: take the kids in the "failing school" when they are five. Plop them at Loyola through 8th grade, make sure they have all essential needs. Watch them thrive.

The problem imho. is poverty, dangerous neighborhoods, and inadequate spending on schools to mitigate those problems.

From there, when you take a handful of kids, and ship them to Loyola...you're robbing the school they left of talent and money. So one kid is saved, sure, but thousands are left behind.

i don't have to tell a Public School teacher this....we're supposed to teach ALL Americans, not "some" Americans. Teaching "some" is easy. Teaching all is damn near impossible....yet other 1st world countries do it, and are mopping the floor with us.

Our rich districts? Oh, they do great, all over America. The poor? They're royally screwed. I don't advocate school vouchers because it's essentially saying "we give up, and we're going to use taxpayer dollars make the gap between rich and poor WORSE than it already is.

I want to invest in our future kids. I have no interest in the next great inventor or business leaders or carpenter never make it out of HS because we'd rather not pay taxes.

[RedFromMI]

My apologies if I was sounding snarky. I believe that the students in struggling schools which are typically in urban areas should have the ability to use vouchers to attend schools that provide more structure and the ability for those students to succeed.

No apology needed-----it's pretty much impossible to not have misunderstandings on a forum. My apologies, too, if I came across as snarky.

To speak to your direct point above, I don't believe there is such thing as a "failing school".

In other words: take the kids in the "failing school" when they are five. Plop them at Loyola through 8th grade, make sure they have all essential needs. Watch them thrive.

The problem imho. is poverty, dangerous neighborhoods, and inadequate spending on schools to mitigate those problems.

From there, when you take a handful of kids, and ship them to Loyola...you're robbing the school they left of talent and money. So one kid is saved, sure, but thousands are left behind.

i don't have to tell a Public School teacher this....we're supposed to teach ALL Americans, not "some" Americans. Teaching "some" is easy. Teaching all is damn near impossible....yet other 1st world countries do it, and are mopping the floor with us.

Our rich districts? Oh, they do great, all over America. The poor? They're royally screwed. I don't advocate school vouchers because it's essentially saying "we give up, and we're going to use taxpayer dollars make the gap between rich and poor WORSE than it already is.

I want to invest in our future kids. I have no interest in the next great inventor or business leaders or carpenter never make it out of HS because we'd rather not pay taxes.

In reality, the vouchers that allow for anyone to have access to them mostly only end up as gifts to wealthy parents and do take away both the better students and money from schools that can ill afford it. I believe that particular result is actually the goal - kill off the public school systems and force the money instead into private/religious schools where the kind of "indoctrination" is more of the proponents liking - teaching literal inerrancy of the Bible and making the ideal position of women as submissive wives/mothers with few rights of their own. And the modern Rs are starting to primary anyone who oppose that approach.

The most significant opposition to this from within the Rs is from rural towns and counties where there are essentially very limited private school alternatives to the public system, and yet those public systems are hurting from the loss in revenue for those parents who pull their children out for religious based schools.

[MDlaxfan76]

Not so sure that it's true that most "failing schools" are in urban areas versus rural.

https://www.phoenix.edu/blog/teaching-i ... s%20degree.

https://online.uwa.edu/infographics/rur ... n-america/

https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.ed ... e-learning

The strongest correlation with school performance is poverty. And that exists a lot in rural areas.

Indeed, overall, urban schools outperform rural.

But it's not the myth that's been sold to suburbanites by Fox etc.

[jhu72]

Not so sure that it's true that most "failing schools" are in urban areas versus rural.

https://www.phoenix.edu/blog/teaching-i ... s%20degree.

https://online.uwa.edu/infographics/rur ... n-america/

https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.ed ... e-learning

The strongest correlation with school performance is poverty. And that exists a lot in rural areas.

Indeed, overall, urban schools outperform rural.

But it's not the myth that's been sold to suburbanites by Fox etc.

... yup!!! +100

[NattyBohChamps04]

Why speculate when we can read about voucher problems in real time?

Universal ESA vouchers: Arizona’s $1 billion failed experiment

"With ballooning costs and no accountability, the ‘black box’ program will be on voters’ minds in 2024"

School Vouchers Were Supposed to Save Taxpayer Money. Instead They Blew a Massive Hole in Arizona’s Budget.

"Arizona, the model for voucher programs across the country, has spent so much money paying private schoolers’ tuition that it’s now facing hundreds of millions in budget cuts to critical state programs and projects."

[KI Dock Bar]

Why speculate when we can read about voucher problems in real time?

Universal ESA vouchers: Arizona’s $1 billion failed experiment

"With ballooning costs and no accountability, the ‘black box’ program will be on voters’ minds in 2024"

School Vouchers Were Supposed to Save Taxpayer Money. Instead They Blew a Massive Hole in Arizona’s Budget.

"Arizona, the model for voucher programs across the country, has spent so much money paying private schoolers’ tuition that it’s now facing hundreds of millions in budget cuts to critical state programs and projects."

It is unconscionable that a program such as this was implemented at tax payer expense. My wife and I made significant sacrifices to send our children to catholic school, just mind boggling to say the least. Not to mention the tax payer dollars that were sucked out of the public schools. Unbelievable!

[Farfromgeneva]

Not so sure that it's true that most "failing schools" are in urban areas versus rural.

https://www.phoenix.edu/blog/teaching-i ... s%20degree.

https://online.uwa.edu/infographics/rur ... n-america/

https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.ed ... e-learning

The strongest correlation with school performance is poverty. And that exists a lot in rural areas.

Indeed, overall, urban schools outperform rural.

But it's not the myth that's been sold to suburbanites by Fox etc.

Wonder if there’s a meaningful relationship with assessment rate as a perfentage of assessed value (property). I suspect jurisdictions above 2.5-3% have mixed results whereas ones below 2% generally do worse