All Things Russia & Ukraine

[old salt]

Putin is just saber rattling. Do you want him to overrun Eastern Europe, then Germany, then France, then invade England? That’s what he wants to do. Standing up to him is the right thing to do. Not to mention required by our NATO treaty obligations (if he invades a NATO country).

Fantasty scaremongering. Putin is bogged down in Ukraine. He can't even keep his troops on his own border supplied.

Well, that is what Putin wants to do and will do if he could find a way to pull it off. How many times has he said he wants to reconstitute the old Soviet empire, which includes hegemony over the old Soviet bloc states? Zero chance he'd stop there.

At the beginning of the war, people were saying he'd be in Kiev in a couple of days. That is certainly what Putin intended. As things have turned out -- with huge help from the West -- Ukraine has been able to fend him off for now. But Putin is in this for the long game. He is hoping the West will grow tired (politically, financially, and militarily) of supporting Ukraine. He is hoping his puppet Trump will win the election so that he can continue his aggression in Ukraine just as he was doing under Trump. Trump, the liar, of course ignores the fact that Putin was fighting and seeking to gain ground in eastern Ukraine during the entire Trump presidency. Trump has already publicly said he'll let Putin do whatever he wants. Trump wants to pull the US out of NATO. He has said he won't honor Article 5. He won't come to the aid of any NATO ally if Russia attacks.

Scaremongering? More like a sober assessment of what Putin intends and what Trump would allow.

There's a difference between getting all of Ukraine, and invading a NATO country.

The first is clearly possible.

The second? Not a chance.

Not under Biden, but definitely possible under Trump. Trump will not honor our treaty obligations and, in fact, will pull the country out of NATO if Putin tells him to do so, which he will.

njbill,

Interesting, seems you have been spending a lot of time on Trump's campaign stuff. Didn't know you were privy on what he plans to do should he return to office. Focus on what does if he gets into office again, NOT what he says. Unless this is your way of reverse appealing to posters on this forum to not vote for Trump?

Joe

“Don’t listen to what Trump says, look at what he does” has been the MAGA mantra for eight years now. Many were fooled by it once, but I don’t think they will be fooled this time. Moreover, it is too dangerous to wait to see what he actually does.

Did anybody ever think he would lead an armed insurrection to try to overthrow the government?

Obviously at this point, all we can do is make predictions. He has not taken any “actions” in a second term as yet. My predictions are what I have outlined. You disagree, which is fine.

The other angle here is that Trump will be nearly broke in a year or two once he has to pay all the judgments against him after the appeals have concluded. My prediction is that he will do deals with Putin, selling out our country, in return for money to replenish his coffers. I’m sure you disagree with that one, too.

Now THIS i agree with...and we already see it with Kushner "accidentally" getting a couple billion dollars from the very people and county he focused his work on while working for taxpayers.

Some day we'll find out why they gave him that money.

Who's wearing the tin foil hats now ? Don't holler until you're hurt.

[njbill]

We’ve already been hurt once. We’re hollering so we don’t get hurt again.

[MDlaxfan76]

Only if the US stays committed fully to NATO.
Without that commitment, Ukraine collapses.
And NATO splinters, potentially dissolving altogether as Putin bites off pieces.

I think you greatly underestimate the weight of the Russian military machine and overweight NATO resolve, absent the US.

No. I think you're nuts if you think the US will leave NATO anytime soon. Not with Russia at war. Not a chance.

And by "anytime soon".....I mean a generation, at least.

Trump and MAGA want to do so. What do you think would stop them?

[MDlaxfan76]

Putin is just saber rattling. Do you want him to overrun Eastern Europe, then Germany, then France, then invade England? That’s what he wants to do. Standing up to him is the right thing to do. Not to mention required by our NATO treaty obligations (if he invades a NATO country).

Fantasty scaremongering. Putin is bogged down in Ukraine. He can't even keep his troops on his own border supplied.

Well, that is what Putin wants to do and will do if he could find a way to pull it off. How many times has he said he wants to reconstitute the old Soviet empire, which includes hegemony over the old Soviet bloc states? Zero chance he'd stop there.

At the beginning of the war, people were saying he'd be in Kiev in a couple of days. That is certainly what Putin intended. As things have turned out -- with huge help from the West -- Ukraine has been able to fend him off for now. But Putin is in this for the long game. He is hoping the West will grow tired (politically, financially, and militarily) of supporting Ukraine. He is hoping his puppet Trump will win the election so that he can continue his aggression in Ukraine just as he was doing under Trump. Trump, the liar, of course ignores the fact that Putin was fighting and seeking to gain ground in eastern Ukraine during the entire Trump presidency. Trump has already publicly said he'll let Putin do whatever he wants. Trump wants to pull the US out of NATO. He has said he won't honor Article 5. He won't come to the aid of any NATO ally if Russia attacks.

Scaremongering? More like a sober assessment of what Putin intends and what Trump would allow.

There's a difference between getting all of Ukraine, and invading a NATO country.

The first is clearly possible.

The second? Not a chance.

Not under Biden, but definitely possible under Trump. Trump will not honor our treaty obligations and, in fact, will pull the country out of NATO if Putin tells him to do so, which he will.

njbill,

Interesting, seems you have been spending a lot of time on Trump's campaign stuff. Didn't know you were privy on what he plans to do should he return to office. Focus on what does if he gets into office again, NOT what he says. Unless this is your way of reverse appealing to posters on this forum to not vote for Trump?

Joe

Joe, a heck of a lot of us actually believe what Trump says. What he winks and nods about, while then denying what he said. And we don't think the institutional guard rails will be in place in 2025, unlike the frictions he faced in 2017.

And a whole lot of us understand that Trump has no friggin' clue about history or world affairs, rather he's attracted solely to power and money and self-aggrandizement.

So, yeah, don't vote for Trump.

Why are you speaking for others on this site? The people that you are referring have never visited this site a day in their entire life. Trump is not a great candidate we can agree on that, but to lots of people he's better than the current Democratic Incumbent. He also does say a lot of turd he never actually goes through with. To deny that is living in la-la land. Are you going to move to another country if Trump gets elected? No, you won't. Some of the rhetoric your pushing can be justified as over the top and dangerous in its own right. Seemingly comes from an inability to get past the person itself, sometimes politics is about more than just that.

Joe

What makes you think no others on this site agree with me?

[LaxFan2311]

Only if the US stays committed fully to NATO.
Without that commitment, Ukraine collapses.
And NATO splinters, potentially dissolving altogether as Putin bites off pieces.

I think you greatly underestimate the weight of the Russian military machine and overweight NATO resolve, absent the US.

No. I think you're nuts if you think the US will leave NATO anytime soon. Not with Russia at war. Not a chance.

And by "anytime soon".....I mean a generation, at least.

Trump and MAGA want to do so. What do you think would stop them?

It’s about time other countries pay their fair share! Isn’t that the Democrat mantra when conducting class warfare against the rich? NATO doesn’t benefit the US at all. We need to withdraw from it and focus on putting America First. Not subsidizing protection for sovereign nations that are capable of defending themselves.

[old salt]

Relax Bill. Give our EUro allies some credit. If Putin were the threat you make him out to be, they would have -- doubled their defense spending, started conscription to grow the size of their forces, concentrated their increased spending directly on increasing combat effectiveness & station their forces on NATO's E flank, like they did (with US) for over 4 decades during the Cold War.

[a fan]

Putin is just saber rattling. Do you want him to overrun Eastern Europe, then Germany, then France, then invade England? That’s what he wants to do. Standing up to him is the right thing to do. Not to mention required by our NATO treaty obligations (if he invades a NATO country).

Fantasty scaremongering. Putin is bogged down in Ukraine. He can't even keep his troops on his own border supplied.

Well, that is what Putin wants to do and will do if he could find a way to pull it off. How many times has he said he wants to reconstitute the old Soviet empire, which includes hegemony over the old Soviet bloc states? Zero chance he'd stop there.

At the beginning of the war, people were saying he'd be in Kiev in a couple of days. That is certainly what Putin intended. As things have turned out -- with huge help from the West -- Ukraine has been able to fend him off for now. But Putin is in this for the long game. He is hoping the West will grow tired (politically, financially, and militarily) of supporting Ukraine. He is hoping his puppet Trump will win the election so that he can continue his aggression in Ukraine just as he was doing under Trump. Trump, the liar, of course ignores the fact that Putin was fighting and seeking to gain ground in eastern Ukraine during the entire Trump presidency. Trump has already publicly said he'll let Putin do whatever he wants. Trump wants to pull the US out of NATO. He has said he won't honor Article 5. He won't come to the aid of any NATO ally if Russia attacks.

Scaremongering? More like a sober assessment of what Putin intends and what Trump would allow.

There's a difference between getting all of Ukraine, and invading a NATO country.

The first is clearly possible.

The second? Not a chance.

Not under Biden, but definitely possible under Trump. Trump will not honor our treaty obligations and, in fact, will pull the country out of NATO if Putin tells him to do so, which he will.

njbill,

Interesting, seems you have been spending a lot of time on Trump's campaign stuff. Didn't know you were privy on what he plans to do should he return to office. Focus on what does if he gets into office again, NOT what he says. Unless this is your way of reverse appealing to posters on this forum to not vote for Trump?

Joe

“Don’t listen to what Trump says, look at what he does” has been the MAGA mantra for eight years now. Many were fooled by it once, but I don’t think they will be fooled this time. Moreover, it is too dangerous to wait to see what he actually does.

Did anybody ever think he would lead an armed insurrection to try to overthrow the government?

Obviously at this point, all we can do is make predictions. He has not taken any “actions” in a second term as yet. My predictions are what I have outlined. You disagree, which is fine.

The other angle here is that Trump will be nearly broke in a year or two once he has to pay all the judgments against him after the appeals have concluded. My prediction is that he will do deals with Putin, selling out our country, in return for money to replenish his coffers. I’m sure you disagree with that one, too.

Now THIS i agree with...and we already see it with Kushner "accidentally" getting a couple billion dollars from the very people and county he focused his work on while working for taxpayers.

Some day we'll find out why they gave him that money.

Who's wearing the tin foil hats now ? Don't holler until you're hurt.

It's not a tinfoilhat deal. We know he got that money, OS. No hat needed. We also know Kush just finished work over there, behind closed doors, as a Federal employee. No hat needed.

We also know that no one else gave Kush billions of dollars for his "legit venture", which tells us that he would never have gotten that money had he not done work with them on taxpayers behalf.

That's it. All public knowledge. The only open question is: why did they give him that money? No hat needed. Reasonable question.

And all of this is perfectly legal on Kush's part. No hat needed. No calls for the FBI or DoJ to look into it. No lost sleep on my part...it is what it is.

See how it works in rational society, OS? You should give it a try. You'll sleep better.

[njbill]

I'll relax when Putin and Trump are dead, which I hope is very soon.

Trump is the single most dangerous American to our country and our system of government in history. The only person more dangerous was Hitler. Trump is more dangerous to the U.S. than Putin. He is the only American President who lead a violent attempt to overthrow the government.

As to Putin's plans, how many times does he have to say that dominating Europe is his goal? Are we supposed to look at his actions and ignore his words like the MAGAs say we should do with Trump? Well, look at Putin's actions.

As to Trump, it is too late to ignore his words. He has expressly said Putin can do whatever he wants. He has spoken approvingly of Putin's invasion of Ukraine. There is no doubt in my mind that if Trump is elected, he will cut off funding to Ukraine and do nothing to stop Russia from overrunning the rest of the country. Then Trump will congratulate Putin and probably try to invite him to the White House and to a G7 conference. Wouldn't surprise me if he tried to give Putin the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

As to our NATO allies, thanks to Biden, the alliance is stronger than ever. They have increased spending and military preparedness. Troops are on the borders. As to your "more and more" suggestion, given the fragile political situations in their countries, there are limits on what they can do at present.

This isn't a Cold War. It's a hot war. What happened during the Cold War doesn't have a lot of relevance to what is going on now.

[old salt]

Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.

[MDlaxfan76]

Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.

Yeah, all that effort to make America the dominant superpower of democracy was a waste of time, effort, blood and treasure. F-Europe, F-democracy, F-world. You wasted your time and effort.

Yes, the Europeans are incapable of defending themselves against a superpower...and that's been by American design.

[old salt]

Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.

Yeah, all that effort to make America the dominant superpower of democracy was a waste of time, effort, blood and treasure. F-Europe, F-democracy, F-world. You wasted your time and effort.

Yes, the Europeans are incapable of defending themselves against a superpower...and that's been by American design.

No I didn't, I helped win the Cold War & I celebrated it on a NATO base with my NATO allies.

Our EUro allies did it once. They can do it again. Don't enable their fecklessness & give them an easy way out.

[MDlaxfan76]

Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.

Yeah, all that effort to make America the dominant superpower of democracy was a waste of time, effort, blood and treasure. F-Europe, F-democracy, F-world. You wasted your time and effort.

Yes, the Europeans are incapable of defending themselves against a superpower...and that's been by American design.

No I didn't, I helped win the Cold War & I celebrated it on a NATO base with my NATO allies.

Our EUro allies did it once. They can do it again. Don't enable their fecklessness & give them an easy way out.

Just let'em die.

Yes, you helped.
And Generations at much more dangerous times stood the line, while America's economy boomed as the dominant economic and military superpower.

Our economy won the war, not the military.

But yes, you did your piece of service.

America purposely crafted NATO to remove European military build-up as independent nation states. History had been very brutal with major nation state aggression and the NATO alliance obviated that in Europe. Collectively, with the US as the dominant guarantor. The Soviet threat and the exhaustion of Europe enabled Europe's agreement to forgo their own military build-up. This was particularly on purpose with regard to Germany.

The Europeans are responding with haste, now, to the Russian threat, having grown lax over decades of relative peace and security. And that's good.

But not if America withdraws its guarantee under Article 5 as Trump will do. NATO states will collapse into chaotic nation state competition. And now, so many have a nuclear option...

But as that's such a catastrophic outcome, instead, western Europe will let Russia retake whatever it wants, one nibble at a time. Until it doesn't and then we have nuclear holocaust.

[a fan]

Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.

Yeah, all that effort to make America the dominant superpower of democracy was a waste of time, effort, blood and treasure. F-Europe, F-democracy, F-world. You wasted your time and effort.

Yes, the Europeans are incapable of defending themselves against a superpower...and that's been by American design.

No I didn't, I helped win the Cold War & I celebrated it on a NATO base with my NATO allies.

Our EUro allies did it once. They can do it again. Don't enable their fecklessness & give them an easy way out.

Actually, at this point, as big of a piece of cr*p as the Russian army is?

NATO could beat Russia without the US, if the EU CHOSE to spend a reasonable amount on their militaries. And it's not a close call....EU's GDP dwarfs Russias.

[njbill]

Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.

It’s a serious enough threat that we both need to do it together, which is what is happening. Our NATO partners have, together, spent more money and contributed more manpower, etc., than we have. Our role, of course, has been critical.

[NattyBohChamps04]

Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.

Yeah, all that effort to make America the dominant superpower of democracy was a waste of time, effort, blood and treasure. F-Europe, F-democracy, F-world. You wasted your time and effort.

Yes, the Europeans are incapable of defending themselves against a superpower...and that's been by American design.

No I didn't, I helped win the Cold War & I celebrated it on a NATO base with my NATO allies.

Our EUro allies did it once. They can do it again. Don't enable their fecklessness & give them an easy way out.

Actually, at this point, as big of a piece of cr*p as the Russian army is?

NATO could beat Russia without the US, if the EU CHOSE to spend a reasonable amount on their militaries. And it's not a close call....EU's GDP dwarfs Russias.

The EU already spends 3x Russia does on defense/military spending. And that's continuing to go up a LOT with the current state of affairs. I'm all for them spending more as well as backing them up.

[a fan]

Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.

Yeah, all that effort to make America the dominant superpower of democracy was a waste of time, effort, blood and treasure. F-Europe, F-democracy, F-world. You wasted your time and effort.

Yes, the Europeans are incapable of defending themselves against a superpower...and that's been by American design.

No I didn't, I helped win the Cold War & I celebrated it on a NATO base with my NATO allies.

Our EUro allies did it once. They can do it again. Don't enable their fecklessness & give them an easy way out.

Actually, at this point, as big of a piece of cr*p as the Russian army is?

NATO could beat Russia without the US, if the EU CHOSE to spend a reasonable amount on their militaries. And it's not a close call....EU's GDP dwarfs Russias.

The EU already spends 3x Russia does on defense/military spending. And that's continuing to go up a LOT with the current state of affairs. I'm all for them spending more as well as backing them up.

+1

And this is all Old Salt is saying....the EU needs to pay its fair share.

[youthathletics]

Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.

Yeah, all that effort to make America the dominant superpower of democracy was a waste of time, effort, blood and treasure. F-Europe, F-democracy, F-world. You wasted your time and effort.

Yes, the Europeans are incapable of defending themselves against a superpower...and that's been by American design.

No I didn't, I helped win the Cold War & I celebrated it on a NATO base with my NATO allies.

Our EUro allies did it once. They can do it again. Don't enable their fecklessness & give them an easy way out.

Actually, at this point, as big of a piece of cr*p as the Russian army is?

NATO could beat Russia without the US, if the EU CHOSE to spend a reasonable amount on their militaries. And it's not a close call....EU's GDP dwarfs Russias.

The EU already spends 3x Russia does on defense/military spending. And that's continuing to go up a LOT with the current state of affairs. I'm all for them spending more as well as backing them up.

+1

And this is all Old Salt is saying....the EU needs to pay its fair share.

But, less we not forget, Putin and Xi are buddies, to the extent Xi wants, triangles in relationships are often a bad thing.....is it really that bad that Trump and Putin are close, when Putin and Xi are as well.

[njbill]

Yes, it is very bad.

[a fan]

Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.

Yeah, all that effort to make America the dominant superpower of democracy was a waste of time, effort, blood and treasure. F-Europe, F-democracy, F-world. You wasted your time and effort.

Yes, the Europeans are incapable of defending themselves against a superpower...and that's been by American design.

No I didn't, I helped win the Cold War & I celebrated it on a NATO base with my NATO allies.

Our EUro allies did it once. They can do it again. Don't enable their fecklessness & give them an easy way out.

Actually, at this point, as big of a piece of cr*p as the Russian army is?

NATO could beat Russia without the US, if the EU CHOSE to spend a reasonable amount on their militaries. And it's not a close call....EU's GDP dwarfs Russias.

The EU already spends 3x Russia does on defense/military spending. And that's continuing to go up a LOT with the current state of affairs. I'm all for them spending more as well as backing them up.

+1

And this is all Old Salt is saying....the EU needs to pay its fair share.

But, less we not forget, Putin and Xi are buddies, to the extent Xi wants, triangles in relationships are often a bad thing.....is it really that bad that Trump and Putin are close, when Putin and Xi are as well.

I don't see it at all like that. Xi is fleecing Putin. And both men know it. The LAST thing a smart Chinese leader wants is a unstable Russia on its border. And that's what's heading everyone's way. Putin can't live forever. And what's next could be, and imho likely is...far worse.

[MDlaxfan76]

Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.

Yeah, all that effort to make America the dominant superpower of democracy was a waste of time, effort, blood and treasure. F-Europe, F-democracy, F-world. You wasted your time and effort.

Yes, the Europeans are incapable of defending themselves against a superpower...and that's been by American design.

No I didn't, I helped win the Cold War & I celebrated it on a NATO base with my NATO allies.

Our EUro allies did it once. They can do it again. Don't enable their fecklessness & give them an easy way out.

Actually, at this point, as big of a piece of cr*p as the Russian army is?

NATO could beat Russia without the US, if the EU CHOSE to spend a reasonable amount on their militaries. And it's not a close call....EU's GDP dwarfs Russias.

The EU already spends 3x Russia does on defense/military spending. And that's continuing to go up a LOT with the current state of affairs. I'm all for them spending more as well as backing them up.

+1

And this is all Old Salt is saying....the EU needs to pay its fair share.

No, he's saying that they don't pay their fair share.
He implies that the EU should be on their own, or at the very least contribute much more than the US because of their proximity to being invaded.

What we so easily forget is that the US economy has the enormous benefit of being a single large economy rather than many pieces, loosely organized now as the EU. We have tremendous economies of scale and much lower energy costs.

And we don't want a European rival again.
But strong allies we need, as the dangers in the world to a stable international economic system cannot be addressed by the US alone. Much less by any other country.