Religion in America

[DMac]

Okies: https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/27/us/oklah ... index.html

Great news.

Any chance you can explain why this is great news?

Because I believe children need to know there is a God that loves them, more now, than ever.

And their parents, their church or synagogue or temple or mosque can't help them with that? It has to be imposed on children who are atheists? Who are irreligious? Who are not Christian? Schools shouldn't teach us about the legacy of slavery that was, among other things, written into the Constitution and has persisted socioeconomically down the decades. But it's OK for the Government to mandate Christian prayer be exhibited, discussed and made part of the curriculum in all classrooms.

I know that religion is a comfort to many, many people, including many I have loved since I was a boy. But government imposition of "the Bible" and the "Ten Commandments" into curricula is directly contrary to the Framers' construction of our founding document. They did this -- the prohibition on the government "establishment of religion" or preference for one religion over another or preference for religion over irreligion -- to ensure that religion remained a private and personal salvation, and not one over which the government had dramatic and maybe decisive influence. Roger Williams in the pre-constitutional period of our history, believed ardently that an authentic Christian church would be possible only if there was “a wall or hedge of separation” between the “wilderness of the world” and “the garden of the church.” Williams believed that any government involvement in the church would corrupt the church. In a letter to a cleric in Connecticut in 1802, Thomas Jefferson declared that when we ratified the Constitution and adopted the establishment clause they built a “wall of separation between the church and state.” Jefferson and Madison worked arduously to remove the Anglican Church from Virginia politics, and both believed that government support for a particular religion or for any religion was improper.

Religion is only dirtied by politics, and by force-feeding it to children as the castor oil they must swallow to get out of school. It becomes a armament in the hands of the very politicians you claim to distrust and loathe. This isn't just unlawful and contrary to all of our bedrock traditions; it is a recipe for more division, more strife, more discord.

Thanks.

How do children even know there is a God to love them if their parents do not take them Church, Synagogue, or mosque? So now you think a child's mind is fully developed to discern that there is no God by claiming they are already an atheists?....my goodness. And yet, you expressed zero concern for this same aged child making sex determination, changing their sexual preference in school without notifying their parents. You seem too intrenched in legal pragmatism to discern common sense and reason.

All of a sudden you do not trust teachers....oh, I see now, only ban The Book, that YOU do not like. Got it.

I think, respectfully, you have -- maybe deliberately -- missed my point.

Children know that there is a God who loves them if their parents decide in the first instance that this will be part of their upbringing. If teaching a curriculum based on the Bible and the Ten Commandments collides with the parents' thinking and preferences, as it likely would with the large number of non-sectarian families in this country, then this sets in place the likelihood of conflict in the home over basic organizing principles. So, parents get to decide things except for the existence of a unitary, powerful, benevolent God and the efficacy of the "laws" He directly provided to Moses? This is a recipe for disaster within families and schools and churches. Why is it not enough for people to imbue religiosity in their children privately, at home and, as necessary, at a community of like believers? Why must it be at public school?

I don't think I said, or have said, anything about sexuality/sexual identity or gender changing in this exchange or on these pages. You are superimposing that on me to create a false "inconsistency" of some sort on my part. I am only talking about government mandating religious education in public schools. I am only talking about children coming home from school and, functionally, asking their parents why they don't believe in God, why they risk limbo or hell for eternity -- after hearing from government sponsored leaders that a-theism is somehow or possibly wrong? Roger Williams and Jefferson knew that this was a really bad idea in multiple ways.

We raised our kids in a Unitarian Universalist community, which I regarded as a social justice program of sorts, and without the imposition on them the idea of a "God" of any sort, without any stories of Adam and Eve or creation, or being cast into the wilderness for defiance of their maker's mandate. My kids are what would be described as non-believers, but they are kind, decent, self-sufficient and loving. That was the choice we made as parents. Why do you and the taxpayer-funded, government-operated school system insist upon telling us we are wrong?

Very well said, Seacoaster, and this expresses the sentiments of many millions, youth.

[runrussellrun]

If teaching the Bible and Ten Commandments as part of an ethics and history curriculum to Fifth and higher aged kids really scares you, I suppose there is no middle ground.

What do you mean by "teach" the bible ?

No one is telling you that you are wrong, again, I think you are taking to the nth degree....as noted earlier and by the Superintendent, the intent is for "historical, ethical, and comparative religion" education.

Go ahead......."teach" history of immoral behaviours of humans........and specifically point out all the pretends, thourghout history, that SPIT in the very face that IS your "ethics". (tRump comes to mind )

youth........suck IS rattlesnake jesus.......prove that suck IS not "god". be careful, what YOU think IS real.

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-presi ... 90637.html

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

If teaching the Bible and Ten Commandments as part of an ethics and history curriculum to Fifth and higher aged kids really scares you, I suppose there is no middle ground.

What do you mean by "teach" the bible ?

No one is telling you that you are wrong, again, I think you are taking to the nth degree....as noted earlier and by the Superintendent, the intent is for "historical, ethical, and comparative religion" education.

Go ahead......."teach" history of immoral behaviours of humans........and specifically point out all the pretends, thourghout history, that SPIT in the very face that IS your "ethics". (tRump comes to mind )

youth........suck IS rattlesnake jesus.......prove that suck IS not "god". be careful, what YOU think IS real.

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-presi ... 90637.html

Russ--may I ask? What or who do you mean by "suck"? You seem to use it as a pronoun but I'm not sure.

[runrussellrun]

If teaching the Bible and Ten Commandments as part of an ethics and history curriculum to Fifth and higher aged kids really scares you, I suppose there is no middle ground.

What do you mean by "teach" the bible ?

No one is telling you that you are wrong, again, I think you are taking to the nth degree....as noted earlier and by the Superintendent, the intent is for "historical, ethical, and comparative religion" education.

Go ahead......."teach" history of immoral behaviours of humans........and specifically point out all the pretends, thourghout history, that SPIT in the very face that IS your "ethics". (tRump comes to mind )

youth........suck IS rattlesnake jesus.......prove that suck IS not "god". be careful, what YOU think IS real.

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-presi ... 90637.html

Russ--may I ask? What or who do you mean by "suck"? You seem to use it as a pronoun but I'm not sure.

you, not honoring my chosen pronouns IS an act of violence.........

suck is openly BI sexual. during covid, suck was stuck in a cave , with two men. We drank wine, and "things" happened.

suck had never knows about the bible, cave story.

suck,......MUST be, the second coming. in the form of rattlesnake jesus.

pretty sure, we are right, in this regard. Dad, keeps on talking to me while painting or hiking in the wilds that IS New York state. very bucolic.

kind of like the "new" testament for the moron church, only Joey Smith found "part" of the golden tablets.

Suck just started to play golf left handed. Hitting about 200 yards, straight......not great, but straight.

Noah........he pretty much had to "bang" with his family, too.

what a bunch of F'd up stories, in said "bible".

rattlesnake jesus don't dig incest.

guess, YOU do. stay principled

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

If teaching the Bible and Ten Commandments as part of an ethics and history curriculum to Fifth and higher aged kids really scares you, I suppose there is no middle ground.

What do you mean by "teach" the bible ?

No one is telling you that you are wrong, again, I think you are taking to the nth degree....as noted earlier and by the Superintendent, the intent is for "historical, ethical, and comparative religion" education.

Go ahead......."teach" history of immoral behaviours of humans........and specifically point out all the pretends, thourghout history, that SPIT in the very face that IS your "ethics". (tRump comes to mind )

youth........suck IS rattlesnake jesus.......prove that suck IS not "god". be careful, what YOU think IS real.

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-presi ... 90637.html

Russ--may I ask? What or who do you mean by "suck"? You seem to use it as a pronoun but I'm not sure.

you, not honoring my chosen pronouns IS an act of violence.........

suck is openly BI sexual. during covid, suck was stuck in a cave , with two men. We drank wine, and "things" happened.

suck had never knows about the bible, cave story.

suck,......MUST be, the second coming. in the form of rattlesnake jesus.

pretty sure, we are right, in this regard. Dad, keeps on talking to me while painting or hiking in the wilds that IS New York state. very bucolic.

kind of like the "new" testament for the moron church, only Joey Smith found "part" of the golden tablets.

Suck just started to play golf left handed. Hitting about 200 yards, straight......not great, but straight.

Noah........he pretty much had to "bang" with his family, too.

what a bunch of F'd up stories, in said "bible".

rattlesnake jesus don't dig incest.

guess, YOU do. stay principled

I'm totally confused. Who is "suck"?

[runrussellrun]

If teaching the Bible and Ten Commandments as part of an ethics and history curriculum to Fifth and higher aged kids really scares you, I suppose there is no middle ground.

What do you mean by "teach" the bible ?

No one is telling you that you are wrong, again, I think you are taking to the nth degree....as noted earlier and by the Superintendent, the intent is for "historical, ethical, and comparative religion" education.

Go ahead......."teach" history of immoral behaviours of humans........and specifically point out all the pretends, thourghout history, that SPIT in the very face that IS your "ethics". (tRump comes to mind )

youth........suck IS rattlesnake jesus.......prove that suck IS not "god". be careful, what YOU think IS real.

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-presi ... 90637.html

Russ--may I ask? What or who do you mean by "suck"? You seem to use it as a pronoun but I'm not sure.

you, not honoring my chosen pronouns IS an act of violence.........

suck is openly BI sexual. during covid, suck was stuck in a cave , with two men. We drank wine, and "things" happened.

suck had never knows about the bible, cave story.

suck,......MUST be, the second coming. in the form of rattlesnake jesus.

pretty sure, we are right, in this regard. Dad, keeps on talking to me while painting or hiking in the wilds that IS New York state. very bucolic.

kind of like the "new" testament for the moron church, only Joey Smith found "part" of the golden tablets.

Suck just started to play golf left handed. Hitting about 200 yards, straight......not great, but straight.

Noah........he pretty much had to "bang" with his family, too.

what a bunch of F'd up stories, in said "bible".

rattlesnake jesus don't dig incest.

guess, YOU do. stay principled

I'm totally confused. Who is "suck"?

suck knows that YOU took trumps fake jab.

"had to........for work "

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

If teaching the Bible and Ten Commandments as part of an ethics and history curriculum to Fifth and higher aged kids really scares you, I suppose there is no middle ground.

What do you mean by "teach" the bible ?

No one is telling you that you are wrong, again, I think you are taking to the nth degree....as noted earlier and by the Superintendent, the intent is for "historical, ethical, and comparative religion" education.

Go ahead......."teach" history of immoral behaviours of humans........and specifically point out all the pretends, thourghout history, that SPIT in the very face that IS your "ethics". (tRump comes to mind )

youth........suck IS rattlesnake jesus.......prove that suck IS not "god". be careful, what YOU think IS real.

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-presi ... 90637.html

Russ--may I ask? What or who do you mean by "suck"? You seem to use it as a pronoun but I'm not sure.

you, not honoring my chosen pronouns IS an act of violence.........

suck is openly BI sexual. during covid, suck was stuck in a cave , with two men. We drank wine, and "things" happened.

suck had never knows about the bible, cave story.

suck,......MUST be, the second coming. in the form of rattlesnake jesus.

pretty sure, we are right, in this regard. Dad, keeps on talking to me while painting or hiking in the wilds that IS New York state. very bucolic.

kind of like the "new" testament for the moron church, only Joey Smith found "part" of the golden tablets.

Suck just started to play golf left handed. Hitting about 200 yards, straight......not great, but straight.

Noah........he pretty much had to "bang" with his family, too.

what a bunch of F'd up stories, in said "bible".

rattlesnake jesus don't dig incest.

guess, YOU do. stay principled

I'm totally confused. Who is "suck"?

suck knows that YOU took trumps fake jab.

"had to........for work "

Oh! I just noticed the signature under your post. Now I get it. Kind of a how to refer to oneself a la Ayn Rand. Just curious--why did you choose those two pronouns? What's the etymology, if you will?

[runrussellrun]

what part of the cave story don't you understand?

Prove that suck IS not the second coming ?


why else would suck, still be alive ? When suck doens't really want to be.

a miracle

saint like

Do luthrans have saints

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

what part of the cave story don't you understand?

Prove that suck IS not the second coming ?


why else would suck, still be alive ? When suck doens't really want to be.

a miracle

saint like

Do luthrans have saints

Truth be told I rarely understand what you write. It's like trying to decipher code, or not being familiar with a number of cultural references. But that's cool. Not everyone connects. Thanks for clarifying the pronouns.

[runrussellrun]

what part of the cave story don't you understand?

Prove that suck IS not the second coming ?


why else would suck, still be alive ? When suck doens't really want to be.

a miracle

saint like

Do luthrans have saints

Truth be told I rarely understand what you write. It's like trying to decipher code, or not being familiar with a number of cultural references. But that's cool. Not everyone connects. Thanks for clarifying the pronouns.

having a hard time understanding how incest is cool with you. How many humans on "noah's ark" ? We they the only humans left, on earth? What was their appearance? Dark skinned ? lite skinned? How many females, to bear children ? Who got the females pregnant?

my pronouns are my pronouns, what IS to clarify ?

[Seacoaster(1)]

The students have to pass the course, and we’ll punish teachers who won’t instruct them:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/oklahoma-s ... rcna159548

“Oklahoma educators who refuse to teach students about the Bible could lose their teaching license, Superintendent of Public Instruction Ryan Walters said in an interview with NBC News on Friday.

Walters issued a memo Thursday instructing all Oklahoma schools to teach students in grades five through 12 about the Bible’s influence on the nation’s founding and historical American figures. Schools will also be required to stock a Bible in every classroom.

In an interview with NBC News, Walters said if a teacher refuses to follow the Bible instruction mandate, they’d face the same consequences as one who refuses to teach about the Civil War. The punishment could include revocation of their teaching license, he said, a process that requires a vote by the Oklahoma State Board of Education, which Walters chairs.

“Any teacher that would knowingly, willfully disobey the law and disobey our standards — there are repercussions for that,” Walters said. “So we deal with that on a case-by-case basis, but yes, teachers have to teach Oklahoma Academic Standards and this is absolutely going to be part of them.”

Walters’ new rule on incorporating Bible instruction was immediately criticized by civil liberties and religious groups. The Jewish Federation of Tulsa and the Oklahoma chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations both said in statements that Walters is inappropriately promoting Christianity in schools.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State also weighed in. “Walters is abusing the power of his public office to impose his religious beliefs on everyone else’s children,” the group said in an email, adding that it is “carefully assessing options.”

….

Walters said he feels confident that his order will survive legal challenges because of the justices then-President Donald Trump appointed to the Supreme Court.

“He’s helped provide a path for us to be able to do this as states,” Walters said of Trump. He added that if Trump wins a second term in November, “it will help us move the ball forward, even more so than this.”

[cradleandshoot]

The students have to pass the course, and we’ll punish teachers who won’t instruct them:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/oklahoma-s ... rcna159548

“Oklahoma educators who refuse to teach students about the Bible could lose their teaching license, Superintendent of Public Instruction Ryan Walters said in an interview with NBC News on Friday.

Walters issued a memo Thursday instructing all Oklahoma schools to teach students in grades five through 12 about the Bible’s influence on the nation’s founding and historical American figures. Schools will also be required to stock a Bible in every classroom.

In an interview with NBC News, Walters said if a teacher refuses to follow the Bible instruction mandate, they’d face the same consequences as one who refuses to teach about the Civil War. The punishment could include revocation of their teaching license, he said, a process that requires a vote by the Oklahoma State Board of Education, which Walters chairs.

“Any teacher that would knowingly, willfully disobey the law and disobey our standards — there are repercussions for that,” Walters said. “So we deal with that on a case-by-case basis, but yes, teachers have to teach Oklahoma Academic Standards and this is absolutely going to be part of them.”

Walters’ new rule on incorporating Bible instruction was immediately criticized by civil liberties and religious groups. The Jewish Federation of Tulsa and the Oklahoma chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations both said in statements that Walters is inappropriately promoting Christianity in schools.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State also weighed in. “Walters is abusing the power of his public office to impose his religious beliefs on everyone else’s children,” the group said in an email, adding that it is “carefully assessing options.”

….

Walters said he feels confident that his order will survive legal challenges because of the justices then-President Donald Trump appointed to the Supreme Court.

“He’s helped provide a path for us to be able to do this as states,” Walters said of Trump. He added that if Trump wins a second term in November, “it will help us move the ball forward, even more so than this.”

I thought this issue was settled by the SCOTUS many years ago? The assumption is this SCOTUS will ignore stari decisis with no proof other than a FLP preconceived notion. That is quite a stretch in logic but I can see how paranoid liberals arrived there.

[youthathletics]

The students have to pass the course, and we’ll punish teachers who won’t instruct them:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/oklahoma-s ... rcna159548

“Oklahoma educators who refuse to teach students about the Bible could lose their teaching license, Superintendent of Public Instruction Ryan Walters said in an interview with NBC News on Friday.

Walters issued a memo Thursday instructing all Oklahoma schools to teach students in grades five through 12 about the Bible’s influence on the nation’s founding and historical American figures. Schools will also be required to stock a Bible in every classroom.

In an interview with NBC News, Walters said if a teacher refuses to follow the Bible instruction mandate, they’d face the same consequences as one who refuses to teach about the Civil War. The punishment could include revocation of their teaching license, he said, a process that requires a vote by the Oklahoma State Board of Education, which Walters chairs.

“Any teacher that would knowingly, willfully disobey the law and disobey our standards — there are repercussions for that,” Walters said. “So we deal with that on a case-by-case basis, but yes, teachers have to teach Oklahoma Academic Standards and this is absolutely going to be part of them.”

Walters’ new rule on incorporating Bible instruction was immediately criticized by civil liberties and religious groups. The Jewish Federation of Tulsa and the Oklahoma chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations both said in statements that Walters is inappropriately promoting Christianity in schools.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State also weighed in. “Walters is abusing the power of his public office to impose his religious beliefs on everyone else’s children,” the group said in an email, adding that it is “carefully assessing options.”

….

Walters said he feels confident that his order will survive legal challenges because of the justices then-President Donald Trump appointed to the Supreme Court.

“He’s helped provide a path for us to be able to do this as states,” Walters said of Trump. He added that if Trump wins a second term in November, “it will help us move the ball forward, even more so than this.”

Something on the topic at hand, from back in 2014....this, coming from a parent about the teaching of Islam n HS. Maryland has had similar "historical" teachings of religions throughout history.

https://www.somdnews.com/independent/sp ... eafbf.html

Not mentioned in this article and forgive me b/c I can no longer find it....but at the time, there was mention that based on the teachings of allah, if you cited the 5 pillars of Islam, in writing, that can no longer be ignored and it was an eternal commitment to allah. I may be off, maybe others can clarify that are more familiar.

[Seacoaster(1)]

The students have to pass the course, and we’ll punish teachers who won’t instruct them:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/oklahoma-s ... rcna159548

“Oklahoma educators who refuse to teach students about the Bible could lose their teaching license, Superintendent of Public Instruction Ryan Walters said in an interview with NBC News on Friday.

Walters issued a memo Thursday instructing all Oklahoma schools to teach students in grades five through 12 about the Bible’s influence on the nation’s founding and historical American figures. Schools will also be required to stock a Bible in every classroom.

In an interview with NBC News, Walters said if a teacher refuses to follow the Bible instruction mandate, they’d face the same consequences as one who refuses to teach about the Civil War. The punishment could include revocation of their teaching license, he said, a process that requires a vote by the Oklahoma State Board of Education, which Walters chairs.

“Any teacher that would knowingly, willfully disobey the law and disobey our standards — there are repercussions for that,” Walters said. “So we deal with that on a case-by-case basis, but yes, teachers have to teach Oklahoma Academic Standards and this is absolutely going to be part of them.”

Walters’ new rule on incorporating Bible instruction was immediately criticized by civil liberties and religious groups. The Jewish Federation of Tulsa and the Oklahoma chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations both said in statements that Walters is inappropriately promoting Christianity in schools.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State also weighed in. “Walters is abusing the power of his public office to impose his religious beliefs on everyone else’s children,” the group said in an email, adding that it is “carefully assessing options.”

….

Walters said he feels confident that his order will survive legal challenges because of the justices then-President Donald Trump appointed to the Supreme Court.

“He’s helped provide a path for us to be able to do this as states,” Walters said of Trump. He added that if Trump wins a second term in November, “it will help us move the ball forward, even more so than this.”

I thought this issue was settled by the SCOTUS many years ago? The assumption is this SCOTUS will ignore stari decisis with no proof other than a FLP preconceived notion. That is quite a stretch in logic but I can see how paranoid liberals arrived there.

Thanks for the eye roll emoji. Maybe google a bit first.

I think -- and someone can correct me if I'm wrong -- that the Court in the Bremerton case effectively overruled (or at least made dramatic inroads on) the Lemon v. Kurtzman test, which was the guiding law in this area from 1971 until this Court got its teeth into things with Kennedy v. Bremerton in 2022. Bremerton is the reason the Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools says, in the article above, that he "feels confident that his order will survive legal challenges because of the justices then-President Donald Trump appointed to the Supreme Court."

Lemon established a three-part test for Establishment Clause claims, under which, to pass constitutional muster, government action (1) must have a primary secular purpose, (2) may not have the principal effect of advancing or inhibiting religion, and (3) may not foster excessive entanglement with religion. The Court in Bremerton pretty much expressly abandoned this age old test.

So, you see? Stare decisis appears to have mattered very little already, the Court having jettisoned 51 years of settled law. So there doesn't seem to be any "FLP preconceived notion" -- whatever that means -- and there are no unreasonably "paranoid liberals" here. I still think this decision by Oklahoma (and the recent decision by the Louisiana legislature to mandate a copy of the Ten Commandments in every classroom) run afoul of the Establishment Clause, even under the so-called "historical" approach of Bremerton. But this group of judicial Christian gladiators is pretty hard to predict.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://modernagejournal.com/dune-the-p ... rk/242023/

[cradleandshoot]

The students have to pass the course, and we’ll punish teachers who won’t instruct them:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/oklahoma-s ... rcna159548

“Oklahoma educators who refuse to teach students about the Bible could lose their teaching license, Superintendent of Public Instruction Ryan Walters said in an interview with NBC News on Friday.

Walters issued a memo Thursday instructing all Oklahoma schools to teach students in grades five through 12 about the Bible’s influence on the nation’s founding and historical American figures. Schools will also be required to stock a Bible in every classroom.

In an interview with NBC News, Walters said if a teacher refuses to follow the Bible instruction mandate, they’d face the same consequences as one who refuses to teach about the Civil War. The punishment could include revocation of their teaching license, he said, a process that requires a vote by the Oklahoma State Board of Education, which Walters chairs.

“Any teacher that would knowingly, willfully disobey the law and disobey our standards — there are repercussions for that,” Walters said. “So we deal with that on a case-by-case basis, but yes, teachers have to teach Oklahoma Academic Standards and this is absolutely going to be part of them.”

Walters’ new rule on incorporating Bible instruction was immediately criticized by civil liberties and religious groups. The Jewish Federation of Tulsa and the Oklahoma chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations both said in statements that Walters is inappropriately promoting Christianity in schools.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State also weighed in. “Walters is abusing the power of his public office to impose his religious beliefs on everyone else’s children,” the group said in an email, adding that it is “carefully assessing options.”

….

Walters said he feels confident that his order will survive legal challenges because of the justices then-President Donald Trump appointed to the Supreme Court.

“He’s helped provide a path for us to be able to do this as states,” Walters said of Trump. He added that if Trump wins a second term in November, “it will help us move the ball forward, even more so than this.”

I thought this issue was settled by the SCOTUS many years ago? The assumption is this SCOTUS will ignore stari decisis with no proof other than a FLP preconceived notion. That is quite a stretch in logic but I can see how paranoid liberals arrived there.

Thanks for the eye roll emoji. Maybe google a bit first.

I think -- and someone can correct me if I'm wrong -- that the Court in the Bremerton case effectively overruled (or at least made dramatic inroads on) the Lemon v. Kurtzman test, which was the guiding law in this area from 1971 until this Court got its teeth into things with Kennedy v. Bremerton in 2022. Bremerton is the reason the Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools says, in the article above, that he "feels confident that his order will survive legal challenges because of the justices then-President Donald Trump appointed to the Supreme Court."

Lemon established a three-part test for Establishment Clause claims, under which, to pass constitutional muster, government action (1) must have a primary secular purpose, (2) may not have the principal effect of advancing or inhibiting religion, and (3) may not foster excessive entanglement with religion. The Court in Bremerton pretty much expressly abandoned this age old test.

So, you see? Stare decisis appears to have mattered very little already, the Court having jettisoned 51 years of settled law. So there doesn't seem to be any "FLP preconceived notion" -- whatever that means -- and there are no unreasonably "paranoid liberals" here. I still think this decision by Oklahoma (and the recent decision by the Louisiana legislature to mandate a copy of the Ten Commandments in every classroom) run afoul of the Establishment Clause, even under the so-called "historical" approach of Bremerton. But this group of judicial Christian gladiators is pretty hard to predict.

I'm not a lawyer counselor. I don't want Christian principles being taught in public schools. The 10 commandments are good guide lines for all people. So if a student wants to read his/her Bible in study hall should that be allowed? How should the line of demarcation be defined? If a student sneezes and the teacher says " bless you" has the teacher made an egregious offense? We live in a society where some of people are offended if you tell them to have a nice day. " DON'T TELL ME WHAT KIND OF DAY TO HAVE!! I responded one time to a jackass and said I hope you get run over by f***ing bus. He didn't much appreciate that either. You just can't please some people.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

So, this the first Bible lesson in Oklahoma?

“32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.”

I thought this was already practiced in a few states, except the fathers were Roofie-ing their daughters?

Going to mix it up and get the daughters to drug their fathers?

This nonsense belongs on the dustheap.

Verses 30 and 31 from the 19th chapter of Genesis are key for context:

30 And Lot went up from Zoar, and stayed in the mountains, and his two daughters with him; for he was afraid to stay in Zoar; and he stayed in a cave, he and his two daughters. 31 Then the first-born said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of the earth. 32 “Come, let us make our father drink wine, and let us lie with him, that we may preserve our family through our father.” 33 So they made their father drink wine that night, and the first-born went in and lay with her father; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. 34 And it came about on the morrow, that the first-born said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father; let us make him drink wine tonight also; then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve our family through our father.” 35 So they made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger arose and lay with him; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. 36 Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father. 37 And the first-born bore a son, and called his name Moab; he is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38 And as for the younger, she also bore a son, and called his name Ben-ammi; he is the father of the sons of Ammon to this day.

This was a tragic situation after the destruction of all Lot and his family had, and after his wife was also destroyed. There is nothing to condone here as a practice--merely a lost broken family with a deeply ingrained instinct to stay alive and preserve their family. Yet a lesson that could easily be taught from this tragedy is that God can redeem even the most hopeless of situations and bring good from it. Both children of incest went on to become two nations--Ammon and Moab, from whom came Ruth the Moabite, who married into Jewish lineage and became the great grandmother of David the King, and was also in the genealogy of Christ and mentioned specifically in Matthew chapter 1 verses 5 and 6. That's a lesson that can bring hope. That's a lesson worth teaching if a question was asked as to why the two daughters had intercourse, once each, with their father, in order to preserve their family.

Uh huh. That's some class "A" sophistry there.

Whatever value there might be in the "good book" is in the New Testament. Too bad most Christians seem completely ignorant of the teachings of the figure they claim to "love."

I don't follow you. What did I write that constitutes sophistry? That God can bring good from what was intended for evil?

Which teachings of Jesus are most Christians ignorant of? I'm not disagreeing with you, I'd just like an example.

Also, Jesus affirmed, upheld and quoted extensively from the Old Testament. In explaining the prophecies in the Old Testament concerning himself--the Messiah--in Luke's gospel, 24th chapter, verses 44-46 he said:

“These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the third day.

[jhu72]

The students have to pass the course, and we’ll punish teachers who won’t instruct them:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/oklahoma-s ... rcna159548

“Oklahoma educators who refuse to teach students about the Bible could lose their teaching license, Superintendent of Public Instruction Ryan Walters said in an interview with NBC News on Friday.

Walters issued a memo Thursday instructing all Oklahoma schools to teach students in grades five through 12 about the Bible’s influence on the nation’s founding and historical American figures. Schools will also be required to stock a Bible in every classroom.

In an interview with NBC News, Walters said if a teacher refuses to follow the Bible instruction mandate, they’d face the same consequences as one who refuses to teach about the Civil War. The punishment could include revocation of their teaching license, he said, a process that requires a vote by the Oklahoma State Board of Education, which Walters chairs.

“Any teacher that would knowingly, willfully disobey the law and disobey our standards — there are repercussions for that,” Walters said. “So we deal with that on a case-by-case basis, but yes, teachers have to teach Oklahoma Academic Standards and this is absolutely going to be part of them.”

Walters’ new rule on incorporating Bible instruction was immediately criticized by civil liberties and religious groups. The Jewish Federation of Tulsa and the Oklahoma chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations both said in statements that Walters is inappropriately promoting Christianity in schools.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State also weighed in. “Walters is abusing the power of his public office to impose his religious beliefs on everyone else’s children,” the group said in an email, adding that it is “carefully assessing options.”

….

Walters said he feels confident that his order will survive legal challenges because of the justices then-President Donald Trump appointed to the Supreme Court.

“He’s helped provide a path for us to be able to do this as states,” Walters said of Trump. He added that if Trump wins a second term in November, “it will help us move the ball forward, even more so than this.”

I thought this issue was settled by the SCOTUS many years ago? The assumption is this SCOTUS will ignore stari decisis with no proof other than a FLP preconceived notion. That is quite a stretch in logic but I can see how paranoid liberals arrived there.

Thanks for the eye roll emoji. Maybe google a bit first.

I think -- and someone can correct me if I'm wrong -- that the Court in the Bremerton case effectively overruled (or at least made dramatic inroads on) the Lemon v. Kurtzman test, which was the guiding law in this area from 1971 until this Court got its teeth into things with Kennedy v. Bremerton in 2022. Bremerton is the reason the Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools says, in the article above, that he "feels confident that his order will survive legal challenges because of the justices then-President Donald Trump appointed to the Supreme Court."

Lemon established a three-part test for Establishment Clause claims, under which, to pass constitutional muster, government action (1) must have a primary secular purpose, (2) may not have the principal effect of advancing or inhibiting religion, and (3) may not foster excessive entanglement with religion. The Court in Bremerton pretty much expressly abandoned this age old test.

So, you see? Stare decisis appears to have mattered very little already, the Court having jettisoned 51 years of settled law. So there doesn't seem to be any "FLP preconceived notion" -- whatever that means -- and there are no unreasonably "paranoid liberals" here. I still think this decision by Oklahoma (and the recent decision by the Louisiana legislature to mandate a copy of the Ten Commandments in every classroom) run afoul of the Establishment Clause, even under the so-called "historical" approach of Bremerton. But this group of judicial Christian gladiators is pretty hard to predict.

I'm not a lawyer counselor. I don't want Christian principles being taught in public schools. The 10 commandments are good guide lines for all people. So if a student wants to read his/her Bible in study hall should that be allowed? How should the line of demarcation be defined? If a student sneezes and the teacher says " bless you" has the teacher made an egregious offense? We live in a society where some of people are offended if you tell them to have a nice day. " DON'T TELL ME WHAT KIND OF DAY TO HAVE!! I responded one time to a jackass and said I hope you get run over by f***ing bus. He didn't much appreciate that either. You just can't please some people.

.... and you want these easily offended to possess guns!

There is no problem with reading the bible in study hall quietly and individually, never has been, as far as the establishment clause -- as long as the reading is being done at the sole discretion of the student (without coaching by school personnel). Just have to obey all other study hall rules. No different from reading any other book.

As for the ten commandments being a good guideline --- how do you deal with "thou shall have no other gods before me"? This is clearly Abrahamic.

Personally I object far less to the 10 commandments then the sh*t these folks want to shove down our throats in round 2. Best to nip it in the bud. Make no mistake about it -- These people are all about their taking control of society, organizing things to their liking! Same with abortion. These people, the evangelicals, their churches supported abortion nationally until the period of school desegregation. Jerry Falwell needed a way to whip these people to his cause, keeping the blacks down. So he built an army to think America was godless and these people (the real Americans ) are going to fix it. Not without a massive fight!

In 1994 Israel instituted a national health system that has the feature of paying for all abortions regardless of cause. This was noticed by anti-abortion church groups who also recognized that US tax dollars were paying for this through the fungibility of US foreign aid. Internally, a small number of anti-abortion church members thought it was a good idea to raise this as an issue, protest it, makes some noise. They passed it up the chain of their organizations. Went over like a lead balloon among the leaders of the movement. To this day these groups have never mentioned it, no protests, etc. Abortion isn't really their issue, never has been. Israel, they consider their ally and besides taking control of Israel isn't their goal (at this time, it will come) -- minority, fascist control of America is the goal. Putting women, blacks, Hispanics, "the godless", anyone who rocks the boat, in their place is the goal.

Rule by fascist white men!

[njbill]

Well said. Make America White Again, says Der Fuhrer. And his lemmings just continue to drink the Kool-Aid.

[jhu72]

https://modernagejournal.com/dune-the-p ... rk/242023/

... nah, it is just a space cowboy shoot em up!