Private Schools vs Public Schools in State Playoffs

[GaitsRightHand]

Congrats to McQuaid Jesuit for winning NYS Class A.

No disrespect to them at all- its a huge feat. But, I've always felt like private schools should not compete against public schools for state championships. Never thought it was fair that some teams can recruit/give scholarships, while public schools are all homegrown talent.

Same reason St. A's or Chaminade can't compete in NY state tournament, just wouldn't be fair due to the pull they have on the island.

Does anyone else think this?

[cltlax]

Totally agree. In North Carolina, there are two large Catholic schools that compete in the public school state tournament. Patently unfair for those schools to compete against true public schools that have geographic boundaries. The Catholic schools win an outsized number of state titles in a variety of sports.

[wgdsr]

Congrats to McQuaid Jesuit for winning NYS Class A.

No disrespect to them at all- its a huge feat. But, I've always felt like private schools should not compete against public schools for state championships. Never thought it was fair that some teams can recruit/give scholarships, while public schools are all homegrown talent.

Same reason St. A's or Chaminade can't compete in NY state tournament, just wouldn't be fair due to the pull they have on the island.

Does anyone else think this?

it's done in new york because otherwise those schools wouldn't logistically be able to have a season. the nyspsh.... has rules that any school has to abide by in order to be a member. your view would need to be taken up at that level, and i doubt there's any consensus for it. st a's and chaminade can't compete in the nys tournament because they have chosen a different set of rules and setup that's better for them, not because of the pull they have on the island.

[pcowlax]

Yes, this is frustrating. Here is CT, Fairfield Prep just won the largest division state title (the one this year with Darien, New Canaan, Staples, Ridgefield, Wilton, etc in it). To be fair, they have not won often but that has more been a testament to how amazing some of those town (Darien in particular) have been the past 15 years. Likely the worst state of all is Massachusetts where St. John's Prep and Boston College High School have dominated division 1 for years (though not winning every single year). This year, as per the MA thread, SJP was the state d1 champion in hockey and football and is currently in the final 4 for lax and baseball (they are almost certain to win lax). It is hard to know what to do with these teams sometimes when, as with McQuaid, they do not have enough close by privates to form a league. You could have them play in the public school league (as most Catholics do in CT (as opposed to prep schools) but not participate in the tournament. NY, CT and MA have enough schools to each have a catholic tournament though many games would be routes. Hard to know what to do. At least in CT, while publics are generally geographically bound, kids do sometimes move to play for a certain team. Clearly though this is nothing like a Fairfield Prep drawing from 8 or 9 towns.

[GaitsRightHand]

Congrats to McQuaid Jesuit for winning NYS Class A.

No disrespect to them at all- its a huge feat. But, I've always felt like private schools should not compete against public schools for state championships. Never thought it was fair that some teams can recruit/give scholarships, while public schools are all homegrown talent.

Same reason St. A's or Chaminade can't compete in NY state tournament, just wouldn't be fair due to the pull they have on the island.

Does anyone else think this?

it's done in new york because otherwise those schools wouldn't logistically be able to have a season. the nyspsh.... has rules that any school has to abide by in order to be a member. your view would need to be taken up at that level, and i doubt there's any consensus for it. st a's and chaminade can't compete in the nys tournament because they have chosen a different set of rules and setup that's better for them, not because of the pull they have on the island.

Think you get the point I'm trying to make. Don't get so hung up on the examples I used. Plenty of others to choose from. St. A's and Chaminade were the first to come to mind in NY that do not play in the state tournament.

[JoeMauer89]

Congrats to McQuaid Jesuit for winning NYS Class A.

No disrespect to them at all- its a huge feat. But, I've always felt like private schools should not compete against public schools for state championships. Never thought it was fair that some teams can recruit/give scholarships, while public schools are all homegrown talent.

Same reason St. A's or Chaminade can't compete in NY state tournament, just wouldn't be fair due to the pull they have on the island.

Does anyone else think this?

it's done in new york because otherwise those schools wouldn't logistically be able to have a season. the nyspsh.... has rules that any school has to abide by in order to be a member. your view would need to be taken up at that level, and i doubt there's any consensus for it. st a's and chaminade can't compete in the nys tournament because they have chosen a different set of rules and setup that's better for them, not because of the pull they have on the island.

Think you get the point I'm trying to make. Don't get so hung up on the examples I used. Plenty of others to choose from. St. A's and Chaminade were the first to come to mind in NY that do not play in the state tournament.

McQuaid and Aquinas are the only Catholic Schools that compete in the NYSPHAA. They are not analogous to St Anthony's and Chaminade because there just doesn't exist any Catholic Schools that logistically make sense for them to play. If they weren't in NYSPHAA, they wouldn't have a season unless they had some sort of financial backing to be able to travel out of state to consistently fill out a schedule. It's a bad example, before this season, McQuaid Jesuit had not even tasted this kind of success. There doesn't exist a consensus in NYS that this is unfair.

Joe

[Kismet]

Congrats to McQuaid Jesuit for winning NYS Class A.

No disrespect to them at all- its a huge feat. But, I've always felt like private schools should not compete against public schools for state championships. Never thought it was fair that some teams can recruit/give scholarships, while public schools are all homegrown talent.

Same reason St. A's or Chaminade can't compete in NY state tournament, just wouldn't be fair due to the pull they have on the island.

Does anyone else think this?

it's done in new york because otherwise those schools wouldn't logistically be able to have a season. the nyspsh.... has rules that any school has to abide by in order to be a member. your view would need to be taken up at that level, and i doubt there's any consensus for it. st a's and chaminade can't compete in the nys tournament because they have chosen a different set of rules and setup that's better for them, not because of the pull they have on the island.

Think you get the point I'm trying to make. Don't get so hung up on the examples I used. Plenty of others to choose from. St. A's and Chaminade were the first to come to mind in NY that do not play in the state tournament.

McQuaid and Aquinas are the only Catholic Schools that compete in the NYSPHAA. They are not analogous to St Anthony's and Chaminade because there just doesn't exist any Catholic Schools that logistically make sense for them to play. If they weren't in NYSPHAA, they wouldn't have a season unless they had some sort of financial backing to be able to travel out of state to consistently fill out a schedule. It's a bad example, before this season, McQuaid Jesuit had not even tasted this kind of success. There doesn't exist a consensus in NYS that this is unfair.

Joe

Excuse me but.........
Section 2 - CBA, LaSallle
Section 3 - CBA
Section 4 - Seton Catholic Central, Notre Dame Elmira
Section 9 - Our Lady of Lourdes

All participate in NYSPHSAA tournaments
so your point is??????

[JoeMauer89]

Congrats to McQuaid Jesuit for winning NYS Class A.

No disrespect to them at all- its a huge feat. But, I've always felt like private schools should not compete against public schools for state championships. Never thought it was fair that some teams can recruit/give scholarships, while public schools are all homegrown talent.

Same reason St. A's or Chaminade can't compete in NY state tournament, just wouldn't be fair due to the pull they have on the island.

Does anyone else think this?

it's done in new york because otherwise those schools wouldn't logistically be able to have a season. the nyspsh.... has rules that any school has to abide by in order to be a member. your view would need to be taken up at that level, and i doubt there's any consensus for it. st a's and chaminade can't compete in the nys tournament because they have chosen a different set of rules and setup that's better for them, not because of the pull they have on the island.

Think you get the point I'm trying to make. Don't get so hung up on the examples I used. Plenty of others to choose from. St. A's and Chaminade were the first to come to mind in NY that do not play in the state tournament.

McQuaid and Aquinas are the only Catholic Schools that compete in the NYSPHAA. They are not analogous to St Anthony's and Chaminade because there just doesn't exist any Catholic Schools that logistically make sense for them to play. If they weren't in NYSPHAA, they wouldn't have a season unless they had some sort of financial backing to be able to travel out of state to consistently fill out a schedule. It's a bad example, before this season, McQuaid Jesuit had not even tasted this kind of success. There doesn't exist a consensus in NYS that this is unfair.

Joe

Excuse me but.........
Section 2 - CBA, LaSallle
Section 3 - CBA
Section 4 - Seton Catholic Central, Notre Dame Elmira
Section 9 - Our Lady of Lourdes

All participate in NYSPHSAA tournaments
so your point is??????

Kismet,

You got to me before I was able to edit my post. My point stands for all of those schools as well. They are not enough Catholic Schools in those areas for them to have a full schedule. St Anthony's and Chaminade are in a league full of them plus they play by different rules than NYSPHAA. I just don't think that argument holds any water in NYS. Thanks for correcting me. I don't believe any of those schools have won a title before either. Correct me if I am wrong, but CBA Syracuse is the only one I am unsure of, but I don't think they have before. If any of these programs have an "advantage", it's certain not producing any NYS titles as a result.


Joe

[GaitsRightHand]

Guys, you're getting lost in the weeds with the St. A's and Chaminade thing- bad example by me...... lets move on. Maybe even move out of NY lol.

Main Question: Is it fair for Private Schools to play public schools for state championships? When Private schools can recruit and offer scholarships?

[GaitsRightHand]

Congrats to McQuaid Jesuit for winning NYS Class A.

No disrespect to them at all- its a huge feat. But, I've always felt like private schools should not compete against public schools for state championships. Never thought it was fair that some teams can recruit/give scholarships, while public schools are all homegrown talent.

Same reason St. A's or Chaminade can't compete in NY state tournament, just wouldn't be fair due to the pull they have on the island.

Does anyone else think this?

it's done in new york because otherwise those schools wouldn't logistically be able to have a season. the nyspsh.... has rules that any school has to abide by in order to be a member. your view would need to be taken up at that level, and i doubt there's any consensus for it. st a's and chaminade can't compete in the nys tournament because they have chosen a different set of rules and setup that's better for them, not because of the pull they have on the island.

Think you get the point I'm trying to make. Don't get so hung up on the examples I used. Plenty of others to choose from. St. A's and Chaminade were the first to come to mind in NY that do not play in the state tournament.

McQuaid and Aquinas are the only Catholic Schools that compete in the NYSPHAA. They are not analogous to St Anthony's and Chaminade because there just doesn't exist any Catholic Schools that logistically make sense for them to play. If they weren't in NYSPHAA, they wouldn't have a season unless they had some sort of financial backing to be able to travel out of state to consistently fill out a schedule. It's a bad example, before this season, McQuaid Jesuit had not even tasted this kind of success. There doesn't exist a consensus in NYS that this is unfair.

Joe

Excuse me but.........
Section 2 - CBA, LaSallle
Section 3 - CBA
Section 4 - Seton Catholic Central, Notre Dame Elmira
Section 9 - Our Lady of Lourdes

All participate in NYSPHSAA tournaments
so your point is??????

Kismet,

You got to me before I was able to edit my post. My point stands for all of those schools as well. They are not enough Catholic Schools in those areas for them to have a full schedule. St Anthony's and Chaminade are in a league full of them plus they play by different rules than NYSPHAA. I just don't think that argument holds any water in NYS. Thanks for correcting me. I don't believe any of those schools have won a title before either. Correct me if I am wrong, but CBA Syracuse is the only one I am unsure of, but I don't think they have before. If any of these programs have an "advantage", it's certain not producing any NYS titles as a result.


Joe

Not sure on boys but I remember the CBA girls team won like 4 state titles straight.

Edit: Boys won in 2017.

[wgdsr]

Congrats to McQuaid Jesuit for winning NYS Class A.

No disrespect to them at all- its a huge feat. But, I've always felt like private schools should not compete against public schools for state championships. Never thought it was fair that some teams can recruit/give scholarships, while public schools are all homegrown talent.

Same reason St. A's or Chaminade can't compete in NY state tournament, just wouldn't be fair due to the pull they have on the island.

Does anyone else think this?

it's done in new york because otherwise those schools wouldn't logistically be able to have a season. the nyspsh.... has rules that any school has to abide by in order to be a member. your view would need to be taken up at that level, and i doubt there's any consensus for it. st a's and chaminade can't compete in the nys tournament because they have chosen a different set of rules and setup that's better for them, not because of the pull they have on the island.

Think you get the point I'm trying to make. Don't get so hung up on the examples I used. Plenty of others to choose from. St. A's and Chaminade were the first to come to mind in NY that do not play in the state tournament.

gaits, i come in peace. don't believe i was hung up on your examples, in that case i was just correcting the record.

prior in my reply, i was explaining why in new york anyway that those schools (privates, not just catholics or faith based) would be allowed to be included.

besides logistics of competition, nysphs... sets rules for membership as well. whether those involve recruiting, schollies, etc. i do not know. but they've been derived with competition for both the publics and the privates in mind. if what's set up gets out of whack, i'd imagine they'd revisit/tighten those rules.

as far as your real question about opinions, personally i think it's just fine at the moment. and if i were on a team, i would welcome all comers to go up against.

[pcowlax]

Congrats to McQuaid Jesuit for winning NYS Class A.

No disrespect to them at all- its a huge feat. But, I've always felt like private schools should not compete against public schools for state championships. Never thought it was fair that some teams can recruit/give scholarships, while public schools are all homegrown talent.

Same reason St. A's or Chaminade can't compete in NY state tournament, just wouldn't be fair due to the pull they have on the island.

Does anyone else think this?

it's done in new york because otherwise those schools wouldn't logistically be able to have a season. the nyspsh.... has rules that any school has to abide by in order to be a member. your view would need to be taken up at that level, and i doubt there's any consensus for it. st a's and chaminade can't compete in the nys tournament because they have chosen a different set of rules and setup that's better for them, not because of the pull they have on the island.

Think you get the point I'm trying to make. Don't get so hung up on the examples I used. Plenty of others to choose from. St. A's and Chaminade were the first to come to mind in NY that do not play in the state tournament.

McQuaid and Aquinas are the only Catholic Schools that compete in the NYSPHAA. They are not analogous to St Anthony's and Chaminade because there just doesn't exist any Catholic Schools that logistically make sense for them to play. If they weren't in NYSPHAA, they wouldn't have a season unless they had some sort of financial backing to be able to travel out of state to consistently fill out a schedule. It's a bad example, before this season, McQuaid Jesuit had not even tasted this kind of success. There doesn't exist a consensus in NYS that this is unfair.

Joe

If there was a desire that they not compete in the tournament, I don't see why they could not still play the same league schedule the do but just not be eligible for the tournament. St. A and Cham don't really play in a Catholic league, they play 5 or 6 games vs the other AAA-AA designated teams, out of state Catholics like Fairfield Prep, Salesianum, St. Ignatius (CA), St. John's (DC) and fill in the rest with top flight, multi-state competition. Most schools are not in locations or with the prominence to do that. Without a doubt though it is a massive advantage and not just in lacrosse. Catholics completely dominate top level basketball in CT and many other places as well.

[JoeMauer89]

Congrats to McQuaid Jesuit for winning NYS Class A.

No disrespect to them at all- its a huge feat. But, I've always felt like private schools should not compete against public schools for state championships. Never thought it was fair that some teams can recruit/give scholarships, while public schools are all homegrown talent.

Same reason St. A's or Chaminade can't compete in NY state tournament, just wouldn't be fair due to the pull they have on the island.

Does anyone else think this?

it's done in new york because otherwise those schools wouldn't logistically be able to have a season. the nyspsh.... has rules that any school has to abide by in order to be a member. your view would need to be taken up at that level, and i doubt there's any consensus for it. st a's and chaminade can't compete in the nys tournament because they have chosen a different set of rules and setup that's better for them, not because of the pull they have on the island.

Think you get the point I'm trying to make. Don't get so hung up on the examples I used. Plenty of others to choose from. St. A's and Chaminade were the first to come to mind in NY that do not play in the state tournament.

McQuaid and Aquinas are the only Catholic Schools that compete in the NYSPHAA. They are not analogous to St Anthony's and Chaminade because there just doesn't exist any Catholic Schools that logistically make sense for them to play. If they weren't in NYSPHAA, they wouldn't have a season unless they had some sort of financial backing to be able to travel out of state to consistently fill out a schedule. It's a bad example, before this season, McQuaid Jesuit had not even tasted this kind of success. There doesn't exist a consensus in NYS that this is unfair.

Joe

Excuse me but.........
Section 2 - CBA, LaSallle
Section 3 - CBA
Section 4 - Seton Catholic Central, Notre Dame Elmira
Section 9 - Our Lady of Lourdes

All participate in NYSPHSAA tournaments
so your point is??????

Kismet,

You got to me before I was able to edit my post. My point stands for all of those schools as well. They are not enough Catholic Schools in those areas for them to have a full schedule. St Anthony's and Chaminade are in a league full of them plus they play by different rules than NYSPHAA. I just don't think that argument holds any water in NYS. Thanks for correcting me. I don't believe any of those schools have won a title before either. Correct me if I am wrong, but CBA Syracuse is the only one I am unsure of, but I don't think they have before. If any of these programs have an "advantage", it's certain not producing any NYS titles as a result.


Joe

Not sure on boys but I remember the CBA girls team won like 4 state titles straight.

Edit: Boys won in 2017.

Gait,

Thanks for the information. I personally believe its ok in NY, because of the point wgdsr made earlier. I don't think it's something that will ever change either.

Joe

[GaitsRightHand]

To be fair fellas, I lost a regional championship to a private school this year and thought it was unfair. Especially seeing how 3 starters would've ended up at my school. They went through my district K-8 and then were recruited by their club coach (who also coaches at the Private).

Worries me for the future... Am I going to have to fight off my best kids from getting recruited? Are kids going to see the success of this private school and ditch their publics? How does this effect the lacrosse in the area, overall? Plenty of underclassmen rode pine all year, but could've been all-conference players at a public.

As a public school guy myself- I hate seeing privates that can recruit run the lacrosse landscape. Especially in the nontraditional hotbeds. Someone mentioned NC, how many students would be more inclined to stay at their public school- if they knew they couldn't compete for a state championship at a private?

[LI13]

I live in Indiana and private schools have always been members of the IHSAA on equal footing with publics. People whine about it but it's totally normal.

Schools that don't want to abide by association rules - like Culver in lacrosse (IHSLA because it's not sanctioned) and hockey and La Lumiere in basketball - aren't members and play national schedules.

[GaitsRightHand]

I live in Indiana and private schools have always been members of the IHSAA on equal footing with publics. People whine about it but it's totally normal.

Schools that don't want to abide by association rules - like Culver in lacrosse (IHSLA because it's not sanctioned) and hockey and La Lumiere in basketball - aren't members and play national schedules.

Totally Normal vs Fair for Publics is different. Just did research on Indiana lacrosse. Looks like publics run that state. Not every state can say that.

[JBFortunato]

Yes, this is frustrating. Here is CT, Fairfield Prep just won the largest division state title (the one this year with Darien, New Canaan, Staples, Ridgefield, Wilton, etc in it). To be fair, they have not won often but that has more been a testament to how amazing some of those town (Darien in particular) have been the past 15 years. Likely the worst state of all is Massachusetts where St. John's Prep and Boston College High School have dominated division 1 for years (though not winning every single year). This year, as per the MA thread, SJP was the state d1 champion in hockey and football and is currently in the final 4 for lax and baseball (they are almost certain to win lax). It is hard to know what to do with these teams sometimes when, as with McQuaid, they do not have enough close by privates to form a league. You could have them play in the public school league (as most Catholics do in CT (as opposed to prep schools) but not participate in the tournament. NY, CT and MA have enough schools to each have a catholic tournament though many games would be routes. Hard to know what to do. At least in CT, while publics are generally geographically bound, kids do sometimes move to play for a certain team. Clearly though this is nothing like a Fairfield Prep drawing from 8 or 9 towns.

Not to get too deep into the Connecticut weeds, but if Fairfield Prep is going to play in a public school conference I've always thought they should play in the FCIAC, not the SCC - both for competitive and geographical reasons. I think they've only lost to Hand and Cheshire once or twice over 15+ years in the SCC in lacrosse.
In Connecticut you could have a robust non-boarding, private school league - Prep, St. Joe's, Xavier, NDWH, Hamden Hall, Greens Farms, St. Luke's, etc.

[coda]

Congrats to McQuaid Jesuit for winning NYS Class A.

No disrespect to them at all- its a huge feat. But, I've always felt like private schools should not compete against public schools for state championships. Never thought it was fair that some teams can recruit/give scholarships, while public schools are all homegrown talent.

Same reason St. A's or Chaminade can't compete in NY state tournament, just wouldn't be fair due to the pull they have on the island.

Does anyone else think this?

I agree. I also think you have to keep in mind the type of private school. Not all of these are recruiting massive areas and have a huge advantage. There is a difference between boarding schools and typical private school. There is still an advantage, but not something unfair. Some of those schools are caught in the middle.

[pcowlax]

Yes, this is frustrating. Here is CT, Fairfield Prep just won the largest division state title (the one this year with Darien, New Canaan, Staples, Ridgefield, Wilton, etc in it). To be fair, they have not won often but that has more been a testament to how amazing some of those town (Darien in particular) have been the past 15 years. Likely the worst state of all is Massachusetts where St. John's Prep and Boston College High School have dominated division 1 for years (though not winning every single year). This year, as per the MA thread, SJP was the state d1 champion in hockey and football and is currently in the final 4 for lax and baseball (they are almost certain to win lax). It is hard to know what to do with these teams sometimes when, as with McQuaid, they do not have enough close by privates to form a league. You could have them play in the public school league (as most Catholics do in CT (as opposed to prep schools) but not participate in the tournament. NY, CT and MA have enough schools to each have a catholic tournament though many games would be routes. Hard to know what to do. At least in CT, while publics are generally geographically bound, kids do sometimes move to play for a certain team. Clearly though this is nothing like a Fairfield Prep drawing from 8 or 9 towns.

Not to get too deep into the Connecticut weeds, but if Fairfield Prep is going to play in a public school conference I've always thought they should play in the FCIAC, not the SCC - both for competitive and geographical reasons. I think they've only lost to Hand and Cheshire once or twice over 15+ years in the SCC in lacrosse.
In Connecticut you could have a robust non-boarding, private school league - Prep, St. Joe's, Xavier, NDWH, Hamden Hall, Greens Farms, St. Luke's, etc.

Yes, it absolutely would have always made more sense for them to be in FCIAC (especially for lacrosse) but the powers that be never wanted that. In football, the SCC currently is even stronger than the FCIAC so Prep is not winning either. Those schools you listed show the different ways it is done. The 4 catholics play in the public leagues (Prep, Xavier and NDWH in SCC and St. Joe's in FCIAC) while Hamden Hall, Greens Farms, St. Luke's (along with Hopkins and King) play in the private day league, FAA, and against West-2 teams.

[LI13]

I live in Indiana and private schools have always been members of the IHSAA on equal footing with publics. People whine about it but it's totally normal.

Schools that don't want to abide by association rules - like Culver in lacrosse (IHSLA because it's not sanctioned) and hockey and La Lumiere in basketball - aren't members and play national schedules.

Totally Normal vs Fair for Publics is different. Just did research on Indiana lacrosse. Looks like publics run that state. Not every state can say that.

Cathedral is a contender for state titles every year in lax. People whine when they win in basketball or football but they play by the same IHSAA rules as everyone else (and in most sports are playing up a class...two in football).