House v NCAA

[coda]

I wouldn't bet against Congress being involved before it's all over.
The concept of roster limits always concerns me.

Congress will eventually get involved at some point. Whether that resolves anything is certainly up for debate but the NCAA's has practically begged Congress to do something in almost every press release after every settlement to help save their bacon.

As for roster limits, if the removal of scholarship caps was done to avoid antitrust issues, I don't see how in the world roster limits aren't also an antitrust violation.

Can anyone tell a company how many people they must employ and what they must be paid? aside from minimum wage?

Every sports league has a roster size and a salary cap.

I know. Those aren't free markets.

Its sports. There are rules in to ensure some semblance of competitive balance. People should be mindful of that, because if you dont you may destroy it.

[Essexfenwick]

Money talks and bs walks. Football is the only media event that almost everybody watches. It’s the money. Very few schools have the history or market strength to be in the mega bucks club. Almost all are already in the SEC or B1G. Even then Vandy and Purdue are expendable. Northwestern rolling games through Chicago is safe. The only viable schools left are Notre Dame, Florida State and maybe Miami and mountain time zone candidates like Colorado, Arizona or Utah.

NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament basically funds every other sport outside of football.

Good point. March madness is still great. The college basketball regular season has been massively diminished with poor chemistry and zero player familiarity. A horrible product.

[coda]

Money talks and bs walks. Football is the only media event that almost everybody watches. It’s the money. Very few schools have the history or market strength to be in the mega bucks club. Almost all are already in the SEC or B1G. Even then Vandy and Purdue are expendable. Northwestern rolling games through Chicago is safe. The only viable schools left are Notre Dame, Florida State and maybe Miami and mountain time zone candidates like Colorado, Arizona or Utah.

NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament basically funds every other sport outside of football.

It funds the NCAA most of all. Football is the cash cow for Athletic departments.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/ ... cial-rules

But anything goes in “college” sports.

[a fan]

I wouldn't bet against Congress being involved before it's all over.
The concept of roster limits always concerns me.

Congress will eventually get involved at some point. Whether that resolves anything is certainly up for debate but the NCAA's has practically begged Congress to do something in almost every press release after every settlement to help save their bacon.

As for roster limits, if the removal of scholarship caps was done to avoid antitrust issues, I don't see how in the world roster limits aren't also an antitrust violation.

Can anyone tell a company how many people they must employ and what they must be paid? aside from minimum wage?

Every sports league has a roster size and a salary cap.

I know. Those aren't free markets.

Its sports. There are rules in to ensure some semblance of competitive balance. People should be mindful of that, because if you dont you may destroy it.

I think everyone here understands the "competitive balance" notion. Folks are simply giving you the lay of the land.

The SCOTUS just basically gutted the NCAA by telling them that they have to apply free market principles to their athletes, and that they cannot dictate compensation terms.

This means that some new group has to arrive to set new rules. So bringing up the NFL etc. is useless, because the NFL has contracts in place between owners of teams, and contracts between the owners and Unionized players.

None of this contractual infrastructure exists for NCAA sport right now. Someone has to put those in place. And whatever they put in place has to follow the ruling that the SCOTUS just handed down. So the first thing that the new entity must do is: remove the scholarship limits. Because right now, the NCAA is in violation of the NCAA ruling. If I'm a player on Syracuse right now, and I'm not on a full ride? I can sue the NCAA (and Syracuse, for that matter) for colluding to cap my compensation for playing ball.

You can't conspire to cap what someone earns in America, not without some other sort of agreement, like the collective bargaining in place between a player's union and an ownership group. And even that is on shaky legal ground that gets by from a wink and a nod from Congress.

So the "new NCAA" has got to get it moving, and fix this problem, and fix it fast. But who's going to negotiate this stuff on behalf of the players? This truly is a complete and utter mess right now.

I'm not cheering any of this mess on. For all we know, this could spell the end to things like ACC Lacrosse. Who the heck knows where this is headed? I sure as heck don't know.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I wouldn't bet against Congress being involved before it's all over.
The concept of roster limits always concerns me.

Congress will eventually get involved at some point. Whether that resolves anything is certainly up for debate but the NCAA's has practically begged Congress to do something in almost every press release after every settlement to help save their bacon.

As for roster limits, if the removal of scholarship caps was done to avoid antitrust issues, I don't see how in the world roster limits aren't also an antitrust violation.

Can anyone tell a company how many people they must employ and what they must be paid? aside from minimum wage?

Every sports league has a roster size and a salary cap.

I know. Those aren't free markets.

Its sports. There are rules in to ensure some semblance of competitive balance. People should be mindful of that, because if you dont you may destroy it.

I think everyone here understands the "competitive balance" notion. Folks are simply giving you the lay of the land.

The SCOTUS just basically gutted the NCAA by telling them that they have to apply free market principles to their athletes, and that they cannot dictate compensation terms.

This means that some new group has to arrive to set new rules. So bringing up the NFL etc. is useless, because the NFL has contracts in place between owners of teams, and contracts between the owners and Unionized players.

None of this contractual infrastructure exists for NCAA sport right now. Someone has to put those in place. And whatever they put in place has to follow the ruling that the SCOTUS just handed down. So the first thing that the new entity must do is: remove the scholarship limits. Because right now, the NCAA is in violation of the NCAA ruling. If I'm a player on Syracuse right now, and I'm not on a full ride? I can sue the NCAA (and Syracuse, for that matter) for colluding to cap my compensation for playing ball.

You can't conspire to cap what someone earns in America, not without some other sort of agreement, like the collective bargaining in place between a player's union and an ownership group. And even that is on shaky legal ground that gets by from a wink and a nod from Congress.

So the "new NCAA" has got to get it moving, and fix this problem, and fix it fast. But who's going to negotiate this stuff on behalf of the players? This truly is a complete and utter mess right now.

I'm not cheering any of this mess on. For all we know, this could spell the end to things like ACC Lacrosse. Who the heck knows where this is headed? I sure as heck don't know.

The player can leave. If the SCOTUS ruled that schools have to pay players whatever they ask for, why hasn’t anyone been paid for two years? No athlete or their agent in the country knows better? You can force schools to provide full scholarships to every athlete? That’s where it’s headed? I guess unpaid internships are next. What about the club athletes?

[a fan]

I wouldn't bet against Congress being involved before it's all over.
The concept of roster limits always concerns me.

Congress will eventually get involved at some point. Whether that resolves anything is certainly up for debate but the NCAA's has practically begged Congress to do something in almost every press release after every settlement to help save their bacon.

As for roster limits, if the removal of scholarship caps was done to avoid antitrust issues, I don't see how in the world roster limits aren't also an antitrust violation.

Can anyone tell a company how many people they must employ and what they must be paid? aside from minimum wage?

Every sports league has a roster size and a salary cap.

I know. Those aren't free markets.

Its sports. There are rules in to ensure some semblance of competitive balance. People should be mindful of that, because if you dont you may destroy it.

I think everyone here understands the "competitive balance" notion. Folks are simply giving you the lay of the land.

The SCOTUS just basically gutted the NCAA by telling them that they have to apply free market principles to their athletes, and that they cannot dictate compensation terms.

This means that some new group has to arrive to set new rules. So bringing up the NFL etc. is useless, because the NFL has contracts in place between owners of teams, and contracts between the owners and Unionized players.

None of this contractual infrastructure exists for NCAA sport right now. Someone has to put those in place. And whatever they put in place has to follow the ruling that the SCOTUS just handed down. So the first thing that the new entity must do is: remove the scholarship limits. Because right now, the NCAA is in violation of the NCAA ruling. If I'm a player on Syracuse right now, and I'm not on a full ride? I can sue the NCAA (and Syracuse, for that matter) for colluding to cap my compensation for playing ball.

You can't conspire to cap what someone earns in America, not without some other sort of agreement, like the collective bargaining in place between a player's union and an ownership group. And even that is on shaky legal ground that gets by from a wink and a nod from Congress.

So the "new NCAA" has got to get it moving, and fix this problem, and fix it fast. But who's going to negotiate this stuff on behalf of the players? This truly is a complete and utter mess right now.

I'm not cheering any of this mess on. For all we know, this could spell the end to things like ACC Lacrosse. Who the heck knows where this is headed? I sure as heck don't know.

The player can leave.

So can the coaches and administrators. And yet their compensation has no limits. Why is it ok to cap the kids compensation....but not the school employees?

[Typical Lax Dad]

I wouldn't bet against Congress being involved before it's all over.
The concept of roster limits always concerns me.

Congress will eventually get involved at some point. Whether that resolves anything is certainly up for debate but the NCAA's has practically begged Congress to do something in almost every press release after every settlement to help save their bacon.

As for roster limits, if the removal of scholarship caps was done to avoid antitrust issues, I don't see how in the world roster limits aren't also an antitrust violation.

Can anyone tell a company how many people they must employ and what they must be paid? aside from minimum wage?

Every sports league has a roster size and a salary cap.

I know. Those aren't free markets.

Its sports. There are rules in to ensure some semblance of competitive balance. People should be mindful of that, because if you dont you may destroy it.

I think everyone here understands the "competitive balance" notion. Folks are simply giving you the lay of the land.

The SCOTUS just basically gutted the NCAA by telling them that they have to apply free market principles to their athletes, and that they cannot dictate compensation terms.

This means that some new group has to arrive to set new rules. So bringing up the NFL etc. is useless, because the NFL has contracts in place between owners of teams, and contracts between the owners and Unionized players.

None of this contractual infrastructure exists for NCAA sport right now. Someone has to put those in place. And whatever they put in place has to follow the ruling that the SCOTUS just handed down. So the first thing that the new entity must do is: remove the scholarship limits. Because right now, the NCAA is in violation of the NCAA ruling. If I'm a player on Syracuse right now, and I'm not on a full ride? I can sue the NCAA (and Syracuse, for that matter) for colluding to cap my compensation for playing ball.

You can't conspire to cap what someone earns in America, not without some other sort of agreement, like the collective bargaining in place between a player's union and an ownership group. And even that is on shaky legal ground that gets by from a wink and a nod from Congress.

So the "new NCAA" has got to get it moving, and fix this problem, and fix it fast. But who's going to negotiate this stuff on behalf of the players? This truly is a complete and utter mess right now.

I'm not cheering any of this mess on. For all we know, this could spell the end to things like ACC Lacrosse. Who the heck knows where this is headed? I sure as heck don't know.

The player can leave.

So can the coaches and administrators. And yet their compensation has no limits. Why is it ok to cap the kids compensation....but not the school employees?

There is no wage scale in athletics departments?

[a fan]

There is no wage scale in athletics departments?

Not one that applies to ALL athletic departments in every University, no. That would be illegal.

Which is why we are here. You can't collude between companies to cap wages. For good reason.

[Typical Lax Dad]

There is no wage scale in athletics departments?

Not one that applies to ALL athletic departments in every University, no. That would be illegal.

Which is why we are here. You can't collude between companies to cap wages. For good reason.

https://www.kstatesports.com/sports/201 ... 820500#AAT


The market will settle at something less than every lacrosse player is on a full ride. That would be $4,000,000 a year at least. They are not called non revenue for nothings. Steak dinner.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.greenwich.com/asset-managem ... ted-states

Hire consultants to make recommendations on a wage scale for non revenue producing athletes.

[Typical Lax Dad]

These poor athletes are being robbed.

https://collegead.com/soft-dollar-value ... n%20Forbes.

If these people don’t understand the value of a free education and the network that comes with it, I would find someone else that appreciates the opportunity in front of them.

[Henpecked]

I’m not a lawyer nor do I claim to understand employment law. But doesn’t this appear as though schools will look to jettison non-revenue sports if the view is no longer worth the climb?

I can see where it makes sense to play athletes for basketball or football if you haveto. But what happens when only a handful of D 1 lacrosse schools can pay its athletes a salary? I would imagine that the sport would become even less competitive with this scenario. I could also see a reduction of schools even bothering to field a team. When everyone here talks about expansion of lacrosse, the likelihood is stronger for a shrinking of the sport.

College sports has become a clusterfu-k.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I’m not a lawyer nor do I claim to understand employment law. But doesn’t this appear as though schools will look to jettison non-revenue sports if the view is no longer worth the climb?

I can see where it makes sense to play athletes for basketball or football if you haveto. But what happens when only a handful of D 1 lacrosse schools can pay its athletes a salary? I would imagine that the sport would become even less competitive with this scenario. I could also see a reduction of schools even bothering to field a team. When everyone here talks about expansion of lacrosse, the likelihood is stronger for a shrinking of the sport.

College sports has become a clusterfu-k.

Good detail here….good firm. Pioneers in sports practice

https://www.ropesgray.com/en/insights/a ... d-benefits

Not sure the ruling concluded that schools have to offer full scholarships to athletes and they can’t limit compensation paid.

[a fan]

There is no wage scale in athletics departments?

Not one that applies to ALL athletic departments in every University, no. That would be illegal.

Which is why we are here. You can't collude between companies to cap wages. For good reason.

https://www.kstatesports.com/sports/201 ... 820500#AAT


The market will settle at something less than every lacrosse player is on a full ride. That would be $4,000,000 a year at least. They are not called non revenue for nothings. Steak dinner.

We're talking past each other.

What you seem to think that I'm saying here is: Colleges MUST pay athletes some fanciful wage. I'm not saying that AT ALL. I'm saying...and so did our Highest Court....that in America, businesses can't collude and conspire to suppress what someone gets for their work. That's it. Nothing more.

All I'm telling you is that SCOTUS told us that the NCAA, or any other entity while we're at it, can't cap an Americans earnings. And for the life of me, I don't get some aren't on board with that.

Do you want to give me the power to cap how much you can earn at work? No, right?

And if we're handing out salary caps? Why didn't we start with coaches and Sports Administrators....their greed is what landed us here in the first place.

[Typical Lax Dad]

There is no wage scale in athletics departments?

Not one that applies to ALL athletic departments in every University, no. That would be illegal.

Which is why we are here. You can't collude between companies to cap wages. For good reason.

https://www.kstatesports.com/sports/201 ... 820500#AAT


The market will settle at something less than every lacrosse player is on a full ride. That would be $4,000,000 a year at least. They are not called non revenue for nothings. Steak dinner.

We're talking past each other.

What you seem to think that I'm saying here is: Colleges MUST pay athletes some fanciful wage. I'm not saying that AT ALL. I'm saying...and so did our Highest Court....that in America, businesses can't collude and conspire to suppress what someone gets for their work. That's it. Nothing more.

All I'm telling you is that SCOTUS told us that the NCAA, or any other entity while we're at it, can't cap an Americans earnings. And for the life of me, I don't get some aren't on board with that.

Do you want to give me the power to cap how much you can earn at work? No, right?

And if we're handing out salary caps? Why didn't we start with coaches and Sports Administrators....their greed is what landed us here in the first place.

SCOTUS ruled on education related benefits and opened the door for expanding compensation. It remains to be seen what form. The market will dictate what gets paid and consultants can help set the market. Does not have to be ADs in a back room. Many positions in this country have a cap on what you can warn. I haven’t seem too many 7 figure bus drivers for instance….don’t people work for tips?

[a fan]

There is no wage scale in athletics departments?

Not one that applies to ALL athletic departments in every University, no. That would be illegal.

Which is why we are here. You can't collude between companies to cap wages. For good reason.

https://www.kstatesports.com/sports/201 ... 820500#AAT


The market will settle at something less than every lacrosse player is on a full ride. That would be $4,000,000 a year at least. They are not called non revenue for nothings. Steak dinner.

We're talking past each other.

What you seem to think that I'm saying here is: Colleges MUST pay athletes some fanciful wage. I'm not saying that AT ALL. I'm saying...and so did our Highest Court....that in America, businesses can't collude and conspire to suppress what someone gets for their work. That's it. Nothing more.

All I'm telling you is that SCOTUS told us that the NCAA, or any other entity while we're at it, can't cap an Americans earnings. And for the life of me, I don't get some aren't on board with that.

Do you want to give me the power to cap how much you can earn at work? No, right?

And if we're handing out salary caps? Why didn't we start with coaches and Sports Administrators....their greed is what landed us here in the first place.

SCOTUS ruled on education related benefits and opened the door for expanding compensation. It remains to be seen what form. The market will dictate what gets paid and consultants can help set the market. Does not have to be ADs in a back room.

Yes!. The market will dictate, rather than via collusion between schools. Precisely.

To be clear with my points.....these kids could easily get LESS than they are getting now. IMHO, it's LIKELY many students will get less than they get now. And their team's program might get cut entirely.

Which is why I'm so concerned for lacrosse in particular!

[Farfromgeneva]

https://www.greenwich.com/asset-managem ... ted-states

Hire consultants to make recommendations on a wage scale for non revenue producing athletes.

And have it where everyone ends so int he top quartile constantly floating it up? No thanks, that’s how you’ve gotten the diversion between exec and employee over time in the corporate workplace. The Mercer and Gallagher types

[Farfromgeneva]

I’m not a lawyer nor do I claim to understand employment law. But doesn’t this appear as though schools will look to jettison non-revenue sports if the view is no longer worth the climb?

I can see where it makes sense to play athletes for basketball or football if you haveto. But what happens when only a handful of D 1 lacrosse schools can pay its athletes a salary? I would imagine that the sport would become even less competitive with this scenario. I could also see a reduction of schools even bothering to field a team. When everyone here talks about expansion of lacrosse, the likelihood is stronger for a shrinking of the sport.

College sports has become a clusterfu-k.

Only if it doesn’t hurt their rankings and competitive positioning because all do
It. Many added sports just like the arms race in general facilities like rock climbing walls etc. if one drops sports and its peers don’t it’s a problem so it’ll become a Monte Carlo simulation driven outcome ultimately which is to say one will drop it if many do. That’s k kinda scary but it won’t be a slow bleed if that happens it’ll be violently quick across college athletics most likely. Given most have open enrollment issues likewise then neighbor will be worried about the lower opex their peer competitor has and drop fast too in order to right size as well.

[Essexfenwick]

I would still watch UMD basketball if the players all had to be actual students with SAT requirements, no pay and could barely dunk. As long as the other schools they played did the same rules. That product with the school name on the uniform would still be lucrative due to the school loyalty being the main driving force for the dollars. The 5 star players in a minor league separate from the college system would generate zip.