Between changes in equipment and rules, it's really difficult to compare between eras. However, back to back NCAA Championships are indisputable with respect to greatness.BetweenTheLines wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 10:40 pmShoulda coulda woulda. If rankings were purely transitive, maybe they would've been in the playoffs.
This ND team is certainly up there in the top 5 or top 10. I'm not old enough to go too deep in the history books, but only 2006 UVA and 2022 MD are definitely better. Even 2005 Hopkins eeked out wins en route to the championship. This ND team just got better and better as the season wore on. They avenged their lone loss. As of today, they're one of the best teams ever.
Also, I thought you bet on ND in the end? Just be grateful you went with your brain and not your heart.
Maybe throw money on PK now too since your GOAT had to watch today from PLL training camp.
Tewaaraton Award 2024
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Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
BetweenTheLines wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 10:40 pmShoulda coulda woulda. If rankings were purely transitive, maybe they would've been in the playoffs.
This ND team is certainly up there in the top 5 or top 10. I'm not old enough to go too deep in the history books, but only 2006 UVA and 2022 MD are definitely better. Even 2005 Hopkins eeked out wins en route to the championship. This ND team just got better and better as the season wore on. They avenged their lone loss. As of today, they're one of the best teams ever.
Also, I thought you bet on ND in the end? Just be grateful you went with your brain and not your heart.
Maybe throw money on PK now too since your GOAT had to watch today from PLL training camp.
Shoulda woulda coulda beat Georgetown at home. Didn’t. So not part of ‘the greatest teams ever’ conversation.
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Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
What are Matt Brandau's current chances? Could his team not making the postseason work against him?
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Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
0%. Yes.gymman1031 wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 6:45 pm What are Matt Brandau's current chances? Could his team not making the postseason work against him?
This is going to either Kavanagh or Liam E. And it seems likely to be Kavanagh. Unlike the Heisman, the Tewey actually waits out the playoffs to see which player also has an impact on their team’s success as well (not just racking up big numbers for a team going nowhere- ala Lamar Jackson at Louisville).
Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
i won't flinch if it's given to Shellenberger.
Caddy Day
Caddies Welcome 1-1:15
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Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
Certainly worthy, but after ND’s back-to-back titles, would be (and it’s strange to say this) a major upset.
I kinda think voters view the Ensign C. Markland Kelly, Jr. award like the Cy Young for pitchers … goalies are specialists who get the Kelly award, while the Tewaraaton goes to the best offensive player, preferably on the national championship team. Sure, a goalie won the women’s Tewaaraton, but I’m skeptical Liam will get it.
All the finalists are certainly deserving.
DocBarrister
@DocBarrister
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Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
Absolutely nothing but respect for Shelly's skillset....
But on paper; I just don't see the argument at this point!
When he was +10 points over Kavanagh and still in the hunt for the title; I regarded him as a serious contender...
But with hindsight being 20/20 and all imput accounted for...
What you are left with is Shellenberger with 84 points (having played one more game) vs. 80 for Kavanagh...
So considering Kav averaged 4.6 for his career...Let's call the point totals a wash!!
Now look at the team success...One lost 6 games (including getting swept by the guy he is chasing) vs. winning a national title!!
CS may be the more gifted player naturally; but he was not the better player this season when you factor in every possible angle!
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Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
Both are great players, but let’s be honest here … PK is just a lot more fun to watch.VoiceofReason wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 8:38 pmAbsolutely nothing but respect for Shelly's skillset....
But on paper; I just don't see the argument at this point!
When he was +10 points over Kavanagh and still in the hunt for the title; I regarded him as a serious contender...
But with hindsight being 20/20 and all imput accounted for...
What you are left with is Shellenberger with 84 points (having played one more game) vs. 80 for Kavanagh...
So considering Kav averaged 4.6 for his career...Let's call the point totals a wash!!
Now look at the team success...One lost 6 games (including getting swept by the guy he is chasing) vs. winning a national title!!
CS may be the more gifted player naturally; but he was not the better player this season when you factor in every possible angle!
DocBarrister
@DocBarrister
Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
Shelly is phenomenal but I don’t think he brings the intangibles that kav does on gb’s / riding. This doesn’t factor in of course, but Kav has also had some just jaw dropping goals over the years. The creativity is impressive.DocBarrister wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 8:44 pmBoth are great players, but let’s be honest here … PK is just a lot more fun to watch.VoiceofReason wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 8:38 pmAbsolutely nothing but respect for Shelly's skillset....
But on paper; I just don't see the argument at this point!
When he was +10 points over Kavanagh and still in the hunt for the title; I regarded him as a serious contender...
But with hindsight being 20/20 and all imput accounted for...
What you are left with is Shellenberger with 84 points (having played one more game) vs. 80 for Kavanagh...
So considering Kav averaged 4.6 for his career...Let's call the point totals a wash!!
Now look at the team success...One lost 6 games (including getting swept by the guy he is chasing) vs. winning a national title!!
CS may be the more gifted player naturally; but he was not the better player this season when you factor in every possible angle!
DocBarrister
Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
Disagree. Also think he’s a cleaner player. Not many cheap shots on his resume. The Hop game was the feistiest I have ever seen him. I think Entenmann will win it.BigTurn wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 9:00 pmShelly is phenomenal but I don’t think he brings the intangibles that kav does on gb’s / riding. This doesn’t factor in of course, but Kav has also had some just jaw dropping goals over the years. The creativity is impressive.DocBarrister wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 8:44 pmBoth are great players, but let’s be honest here … PK is just a lot more fun to watch.VoiceofReason wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 8:38 pmAbsolutely nothing but respect for Shelly's skillset....
But on paper; I just don't see the argument at this point!
When he was +10 points over Kavanagh and still in the hunt for the title; I regarded him as a serious contender...
But with hindsight being 20/20 and all imput accounted for...
What you are left with is Shellenberger with 84 points (having played one more game) vs. 80 for Kavanagh...
So considering Kav averaged 4.6 for his career...Let's call the point totals a wash!!
Now look at the team success...One lost 6 games (including getting swept by the guy he is chasing) vs. winning a national title!!
CS may be the more gifted player naturally; but he was not the better player this season when you factor in every possible angle!
DocBarrister
1972199920032006201120192021
Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
You can disagree but it’s not really up for debate. Pat has 161 career groundballs to Shelly’s 109 (35 v 24 respectively this year), and Shelly played 6 extra games. Pat has 84 turnovers to Shelly’s 107 (25 v 42 respectively this year). And then again, Pat also only put up 4 less points in one less game played this year. I don’t have CTO stats, but you know damn well PK led there also.Laxter wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 9:13 pmDisagree. Also think he’s a cleaner player. Not many cheap shots on his resume. The Hop game was the feistiest I have ever seen him. I think Entenmann will win it.BigTurn wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 9:00 pmShelly is phenomenal but I don’t think he brings the intangibles that kav does on gb’s / riding. This doesn’t factor in of course, but Kav has also had some just jaw dropping goals over the years. The creativity is impressive.DocBarrister wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 8:44 pmBoth are great players, but let’s be honest here … PK is just a lot more fun to watch.VoiceofReason wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 8:38 pmAbsolutely nothing but respect for Shelly's skillset....
But on paper; I just don't see the argument at this point!
When he was +10 points over Kavanagh and still in the hunt for the title; I regarded him as a serious contender...
But with hindsight being 20/20 and all imput accounted for...
What you are left with is Shellenberger with 84 points (having played one more game) vs. 80 for Kavanagh...
So considering Kav averaged 4.6 for his career...Let's call the point totals a wash!!
Now look at the team success...One lost 6 games (including getting swept by the guy he is chasing) vs. winning a national title!!
CS may be the more gifted player naturally; but he was not the better player this season when you factor in every possible angle!
DocBarrister
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Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
ND was only one of two programs in the history of college lacrosse to win a natty with 1 or fewer losses. So yes indeed they’re right up there in greatest ever conversation. And the way they beat Top 10 teams this year with ease and giving those teams their worst loss of the season says a lot. Just bc your hatred towards the Irish runs deep, don’t throw out judgement before you know the facts.Finster wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 6:59 amBetweenTheLines wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 10:40 pmShoulda coulda woulda. If rankings were purely transitive, maybe they would've been in the playoffs.
This ND team is certainly up there in the top 5 or top 10. I'm not old enough to go too deep in the history books, but only 2006 UVA and 2022 MD are definitely better. Even 2005 Hopkins eeked out wins en route to the championship. This ND team just got better and better as the season wore on. They avenged their lone loss. As of today, they're one of the best teams ever.
Also, I thought you bet on ND in the end? Just be grateful you went with your brain and not your heart.
Maybe throw money on PK now too since your GOAT had to watch today from PLL training camp.
Shoulda woulda coulda beat Georgetown at home. Didn’t. So not part of ‘the greatest teams ever’ conversation.
Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
Wait … what? There are three undefeated champions I can think of off the top of my head.NeOhLaxFan wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 10:53 pmND was only one of two programs in the history of college lacrosse to win a natty with 1 or fewer losses.Finster wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 6:59 amBetweenTheLines wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 10:40 pmShoulda coulda woulda. If rankings were purely transitive, maybe they would've been in the playoffs.
This ND team is certainly up there in the top 5 or top 10. I'm not old enough to go too deep in the history books, but only 2006 UVA and 2022 MD are definitely better. Even 2005 Hopkins eeked out wins en route to the championship. This ND team just got better and better as the season wore on. They avenged their lone loss. As of today, they're one of the best teams ever.
Also, I thought you bet on ND in the end? Just be grateful you went with your brain and not your heart.
Maybe throw money on PK now too since your GOAT had to watch today from PLL training camp.
Shoulda woulda coulda beat Georgetown at home. Didn’t. So not part of ‘the greatest teams ever’ conversation.
1972199920032006201120192021
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Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
The real genius of the Tewaaraton Foundation has been its ability to make its award relevant in a very short period of time. The media has assisted with this, but the Tewaaraton award has eclipsed the USILA awards in the popular sports media. Part of this has been the committee's ability to make interesting choices. Examples of this might be the dual award to the Thompson brothers, or the award going to Peter Baum as a non-hotbed player who was the first DI player to achieve 100 points in a season (I don't recall the exact number). Typically, the award has recognised play in the NCAA tournament, along with regular season play. I don't think that this is specifically stated in the selection criteria.
Given the need for relevance and notoriety, I really can't imagine that it would not go to a player on a back-to-back NCAA Championship Team. It would seem that would forfeit too much media exposure and "limelight" for the award not to do this. Personally, I think that Liam Entenmann might fit the "interesting narrative" continuum, as well as an "inclusion" narrative being a defensive player, and the first goalie to win. However, Kavanagh has a dynamic personality and profile, and has the traditional point scoring profile.
Given the need for relevance and notoriety, I really can't imagine that it would not go to a player on a back-to-back NCAA Championship Team. It would seem that would forfeit too much media exposure and "limelight" for the award not to do this. Personally, I think that Liam Entenmann might fit the "interesting narrative" continuum, as well as an "inclusion" narrative being a defensive player, and the first goalie to win. However, Kavanagh has a dynamic personality and profile, and has the traditional point scoring profile.
Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
Can you watch the presentation?
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Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
He meant to be on the women’s threadLaxter wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 11:16 pmWait … what? There are three undefeated champions I can think of off the top of my head.NeOhLaxFan wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 10:53 pmND was only one of two programs in the history of college lacrosse to win a natty with 1 or fewer losses.Finster wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 6:59 amBetweenTheLines wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 10:40 pmShoulda coulda woulda. If rankings were purely transitive, maybe they would've been in the playoffs.
This ND team is certainly up there in the top 5 or top 10. I'm not old enough to go too deep in the history books, but only 2006 UVA and 2022 MD are definitely better. Even 2005 Hopkins eeked out wins en route to the championship. This ND team just got better and better as the season wore on. They avenged their lone loss. As of today, they're one of the best teams ever.
Also, I thought you bet on ND in the end? Just be grateful you went with your brain and not your heart.
Maybe throw money on PK now too since your GOAT had to watch today from PLL training camp.
Shoulda woulda coulda beat Georgetown at home. Didn’t. So not part of ‘the greatest teams ever’ conversation.
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
Kind of makes his “know your facts” jab a little ironic.Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 6:16 amHe meant to be on the women’s threadLaxter wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 11:16 pmWait … what? There are three undefeated champions I can think of off the top of my head.NeOhLaxFan wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 10:53 pmND was only one of two programs in the history of college lacrosse to win a natty with 1 or fewer losses.Finster wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 6:59 amBetweenTheLines wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 10:40 pmShoulda coulda woulda. If rankings were purely transitive, maybe they would've been in the playoffs.
This ND team is certainly up there in the top 5 or top 10. I'm not old enough to go too deep in the history books, but only 2006 UVA and 2022 MD are definitely better. Even 2005 Hopkins eeked out wins en route to the championship. This ND team just got better and better as the season wore on. They avenged their lone loss. As of today, they're one of the best teams ever.
Also, I thought you bet on ND in the end? Just be grateful you went with your brain and not your heart.
Maybe throw money on PK now too since your GOAT had to watch today from PLL training camp.
Shoulda woulda coulda beat Georgetown at home. Didn’t. So not part of ‘the greatest teams ever’ conversation.
Last edited by Laxter on Wed May 29, 2024 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
1972199920032006201120192021
Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
The "natty" has been won 27 times by teams "with 1 or fewer losses."NeOhLaxFan wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 10:53 pm ND was only one of two programs in the history of college lacrosse to win a natty with 1 or fewer losses.
Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
Laxter wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 7:37 amKinds of makes his “know your facts.” jab a little ironic.Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 6:16 amHe meant to be on the women’s threadLaxter wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 11:16 pmWait … what? There are three undefeated champions I can think of off the top of my head.NeOhLaxFan wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 10:53 pmND was only one of two programs in the history of college lacrosse to win a natty with 1 or fewer losses.Finster wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 6:59 amShoulda woulda coulda beat Georgetown at home. Didn’t. So not part of ‘the greatest teams ever’ conversation.BetweenTheLines wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 10:40 pmShoulda coulda woulda. If rankings were purely transitive, maybe they would've been in the playoffs.
This ND team is certainly up there in the top 5 or top 10. I'm not old enough to go too deep in the history books, but only 2006 UVA and 2022 MD are definitely better. Even 2005 Hopkins eeked out wins en route to the championship. This ND team just got better and better as the season wore on. They avenged their lone loss. As of today, they're one of the best teams ever.
Also, I thought you bet on ND in the end? Just be grateful you went with your brain and not your heart.
Maybe throw money on PK now too since your GOAT had to watch today from PLL training camp.
He’s from Northeast Ohio; Cleveland State is his measuring stick. And indeed, Notre Dame crushed the Vikings 25-3.
On the other hand, this ‘historic’ team also beat:
Ohio State by 3
Syracuse by 2
Duke by 3
Cornell by 1
And UVA by 2
Oh, they also LOST to #9 Georgetown.
And there are countless NCAA D1 winners who had 1 or fewer losses. See BigRed’s post.
Historic my arse.
Re: Tewaaraton Award 2024
Don’t forget about when they beat Duke by 10, UVA by 9, and then assaulted that Georgetown team in the tourney. This is without question a top 5 team of all time. Your clear disdain for the program is clouding your judgement, as it has all year.Finster wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 8:32 amLaxter wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 7:37 amKinds of makes his “know your facts.” jab a little ironic.Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 6:16 amHe meant to be on the women’s threadLaxter wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 11:16 pmWait … what? There are three undefeated champions I can think of off the top of my head.NeOhLaxFan wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 10:53 pmND was only one of two programs in the history of college lacrosse to win a natty with 1 or fewer losses.Finster wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 6:59 amShoulda woulda coulda beat Georgetown at home. Didn’t. So not part of ‘the greatest teams ever’ conversation.BetweenTheLines wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 10:40 pmShoulda coulda woulda. If rankings were purely transitive, maybe they would've been in the playoffs.
This ND team is certainly up there in the top 5 or top 10. I'm not old enough to go too deep in the history books, but only 2006 UVA and 2022 MD are definitely better. Even 2005 Hopkins eeked out wins en route to the championship. This ND team just got better and better as the season wore on. They avenged their lone loss. As of today, they're one of the best teams ever.
Also, I thought you bet on ND in the end? Just be grateful you went with your brain and not your heart.
Maybe throw money on PK now too since your GOAT had to watch today from PLL training camp.
He’s from Northeast Ohio; Cleveland State is his measuring stick. And indeed, Notre Dame crushed the Vikings 25-3.
On the other hand, this ‘historic’ team also beat:
Ohio State by 3
Syracuse by 2
Duke by 3
Cornell by 1
And UVA by 2
Oh, they also LOST to #9 Georgetown.
And there are countless NCAA D1 winners who had 1 or fewer losses. See BigRed’s post.
Historic my arse.