Orange Duce

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youthathletics
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by youthathletics »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 6:42 am
youthathletics wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 6:54 pm Trump doing in end around on the gag-order...reading what others (Vivek) was saying.....3d Chess?

https://x.com/MJTruthUltra/status/1790429079113543913

https://x.com/The_Nomad_News/status/1790431565945925851
Yes, Trump is using agents, proxies, and Visiting Toadies to violate (not "end around") the Court order prohibiting him from disparaging and intimidating witnesses and court staff. We have all long experienced the toadying expected and required of people in the Trump circle, but the VP Wannabee pilgrimages are on a new order of magnitude.

I did a quick search of the word "toadies" on the Twit, and came up with this:

https://twitter.com/ReallyAmerican1/sta ... 2242020780

Two Florida Congressmen, a Montana governor (not pictured), and a gaslighting weirdo, Vivek, all attired in the same Trump uniform, visiting a NY courthouse, violating the Order for Orange Duce. Even an Apostle like YA has to admit that this is some weird stuff.
oy vey......a blue suit and red tie is now viewed like a brown shirt. I suppose you'll now want the US to change our flag, b/c red white and blue equals MAGA.

You've certainly 'lost your edge'. ;)

A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

I don't think I made the jump from Trump's little emotional support mannikin men copying his manner of dress, to describing them as brownshirts. But you be you.
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youthathletics
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by youthathletics »

Anderson Cooper in awe of Trump Attorney, rather than just saying Cohen is a liar: https://x.com/_johnnymaga/status/1791163774960816421
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
njbill
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by njbill »

Spent a number of hours in the car today listening (too much) to the trial coverage. Boggles my mind how off base a lot of the commentary was about the text and phone call about the 14-year-old stalker. No, that was not an effective cross examination. Just like nobody believes Trump that he didn’t have sex with Stormy Daniels, everybody believes Cohen that he told Trump that he had paid off Stormy.

Obviously, he didn’t pay her off and then fail to tell Trump. That was the only important fact in that conversation. And it’s not particularly material to the key issue in the case, which is whether Trump knew the records were false. That was in an entirely separate conversation with Cohen at a later date. Now maybe this Trump attorney intends to try to discredit that conversation next week, but he didn’t do that today.

It does concern me that some people like Cooper got sucked in today. Hopefully the prosecution can rehabilitate Cohen on redirect or clearly make the above point in closing.
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cradleandshoot
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by cradleandshoot »

njbill wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 11:34 pm Spent a number of hours in the car today listening (too much) to the trial coverage. Boggles my mind how off base a lot of the commentary was about the text and phone call about the 14-year-old stalker. No, that was not an effective cross examination. Just like nobody believes Trump that he didn’t have sex with Stormy Daniels, everybody believes Cohen that he told Trump that he had paid off Stormy.

Obviously, he didn’t pay her off and then fail to tell Trump. That was the only important fact in that conversation. And it’s not particularly material to the key issue in the case, which is whether Trump knew the records were false. That was in an entirely separate conversation with Cohen at a later date. Now maybe this Trump attorney intends to try to discredit that conversation next week, but he didn’t do that today.

It does concern me that some people like Cooper got sucked in today. Hopefully the prosecution can rehabilitate Cohen on redirect or clearly make the above point in closing.
I remember what our company first sergeant advised us when we spent 3 weeks at the JOTC in Panama. Those hookers in Colon were a 45 minute cab ride away. They were very beautiful young women who have had sex with perhaps thousands of other dudes. First Sergeant Burnell advised about being careful who you stick your dingus in. IMO having sex with a big boobied porn star that has f***ed countless other dudes isn't a mountain I would ever climb. This whole topic makes monogamy a beautiful thing.

Sex that includes love and passion is really an amazing thing.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
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old salt
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by old salt »

What does any of this have to do with whether or not the bookkeeping entry was a crime or not, a felony at that ?
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

Pretty fair summary of the trial so far, together with the as yet unknown consequences that lurk just out of sight, by David French in the Times today:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/19/opin ... ppeal.html

"I can’t remember when I’ve been more disturbed by a criminal trial than I have been by the Manhattan trial of Donald Trump. The prosecutors are painting a vivid picture of Trump as a vile and dishonest person, and the daily pilgrimages of Republican politicians to the Manhattan courthouse, in spite of horrific testimony against Trump, demonstrates that the party has a broken soul.

At the same time, the underlying legal theory supporting the prosecution’s case remains dubious. The facts may be clear, but the law is anything but — and that could very well mean that the jury convicts Trump before the election, an appeals court reverses the conviction after the election, and millions of Americans, many of them non-MAGA, face yet another crisis of confidence in American institutions.

Let’s first discuss the dreadful facts. Stormy Daniels’s testimony crystallized, better than that of any other witness, the prosecution’s theory that Trump ordered Michael Cohen to pay off Daniels to save his campaign and then fraudulently disguised the reimbursements. It helped answer a key question: Why would a known playboy, a person who has boasted of his affairs with his friends’ wives, suddenly be so keen to suppress details of his encounter with a porn star?

Consider the timeline. On Oct. 7, 2016, the “Access Hollywood” story broke. The Washington Post released the infamous recording in which Trump told Billy Bush, one of the show’s hosts, “When you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.” Trump went on, saying he could grab women by the genitals. “You can do anything.”

The next day, a representative for Daniels told The National Enquirer that Daniels was willing to talk on the record about her encounter with Trump. We now know from Daniels’s sworn testimony that her story was going to essentially affirm the “Access Hollywood” tape. Trump used his star power to draw in Daniels and then exploited her.

At trial, she did not testify to a frivolous or joyful encounter with Trump; she testified to something far more distressing. He invited her to his hotel room, and after she went to the bathroom, she walked out to find Trump on the bed in just his boxers and a T-shirt. She did not claim he forced himself on her, but she said she left “shaking” and testified that she was ashamed.

Her testimony was so lurid and disturbing that the judge admonished the prosecution, but it also helped explain the entire hush-money scheme. Of course Trump wouldn’t want a story in the media days after the “Access Hollywood” tape that would immediately contradict the message that Trump had engaged in mere “locker room talk.” Instead, he was describing how he actually behaved.

Trump was never averse to the so-called catch-and-kill process of using money to suppress negative stories. He’d conspired with David Pecker, the chief executive of The National Enquirer, to purchase damaging stories before, including Karen McDougal’s story of a monthslong relationship with Trump in 2006 and 2007. But the timing and details made Daniels’s story particularly damaging.

All of this is morally repugnant. And we can now place Daniels’s testimony in the larger context of what we know about Trump. A jury found him legally liable for sexually abusing and defaming E. Jean Carroll. Now we’ve heard additional sworn testimony that Trump is not only unfaithful but fundamentally predatory.

Against that backdrop, it is reprehensible that Republican politicians are marching down to Manhattan — sometimes identically dressed in Trump-inspired blue suits and red ties — to stand by their man. It’s dreadful that so many Christians still believe he’s the God-appointed savior of America.

But dreadful isn’t a synonym for criminal, and nothing about the terrible facts of the case has eased my legal concerns. From the beginning, it has been obvious that the facts of the case are damning, but the law is cloudy. The reason is simple: To secure a felony conviction, the prosecutor has to prove that Trump falsified business records with an “intent to defraud that included an intent to commit another crime or to aid or conceal the commission thereof.”

But what is the other crime? Here is where the case gets shaky. In court filings, the prosecution has argued that Trump was attempting to commit or conceal federal and state election law crimes, along with state tax crimes. The election law theory has real weaknesses, however. While I’ve long believed the hush-money scheme violated federal criminal law, I also recognize that the underlying legal theory has not been fully tested.

Cohen, Trump’s former lawyer and fixer, pleaded guilty to federal crimes in connection with this same scheme, but a guilty plea doesn’t have the same value as a court precedent. There isn’t clear federal precedent on the matter, and no federal charges have been brought against Trump on these grounds, by the Department of Justice under either Trump or President Biden. In addition, the state election law that the prosecution cites may well be pre-empted by federal law and therefore be inapplicable to the case.

I’m not alone in these concerns. Mark Pomerantz, a former prosecutor in the Manhattan D.A.’s office, said that the case was “too risky under New York law” and noted that “no appellate court in New York has ever upheld (or rejected) this interpretation of the law.” Numerous legal analysts, including people who are no friends of Trump, have expressed grave reservations about the case, in large part because of the difficulty of linking the falsified records to an additional, separate crime.

To be clear, an untested legal theory is not the same thing as a weak or specious theory. If Trump is convicted, his conviction could well survive on appeal. The alternative, however, is dreadful. Imagine a scenario in which Trump is convicted at the trial, Biden condemns him as a felon, and the Biden campaign runs ads mocking him as a convict. If Biden wins a narrow victory but then an appeals court tosses out the conviction, this case could well undermine faith in our democracy and the rule of law.

I’m not as concerned about the pure partisans. Some Trump opponents may well think that the ends justify the means. To them, the prosecution has value even if it ultimately fails. And the MAGA base won’t believe any guilty verdict is legitimate, even if it’s upheld on appeal.

But there are deeper issues at stake. Our court system does not exist to guarantee political results, no matter how much one might want Trump to lose the election. And defeating Trump with an assist from a criminal prosecution that falls apart on appeal would exacerbate the mistrust that helped make Trump president in the first place and sustains his hold on the Republican Party.

Trump’s immorality and corruption should have disqualified him with Republican voters almost a decade ago, and now we have more sworn testimony that Trump is every bit as bad as we feared. At the same time, however, one does not defend liberal democracy through dubious criminal prosecutions.

There are smart lawyers who disagree with me, who think the prosecution is standing on solid legal ground. I truly hope they’re right. But I’m worried enough to be deeply perturbed. A terrible man is in the cross hairs of American justice, but immorality alone doesn’t make him a criminal."
njbill
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by njbill »

So we hear this morning in court that Trump had to pay people to attend that ceremony years ago when he came down the elevator at the Trump Shed. The crowd was completely phony, just paid actors.
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youthathletics
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by youthathletics »

Court room math is a bit fuzzy, but saying Cohen stole 60k from Trump for such a poor bonus in 16' https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/liv ... imony-live
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
njbill
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by njbill »

Yawn. The capo skimmed a little from mob boss. This was all brought out on direct examination a week ago.
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

njbill wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 11:08 am So we hear this morning in court that Trump had to pay people to attend that ceremony years ago when he came down the elevator at the Trump Shed. The crowd was completely phony, just paid actors.
Shocked. At least John Barron was there to fairly report on the event.
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youthathletics
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by youthathletics »

njbill wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 11:25 am Yawn. The capo skimmed a little from mob boss. This was all brought out on direct examination a week ago.
Sure, but how do 12 trust anything he says has merit. Hell, Cohen and Stormy could have been banging and set trump up to fleece him :lol:
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
njbill
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by njbill »

That’s the $64,000 question. At this point I would say conviction is 50/50.

Much of what Cohen has said is corroborated by other evidence but he, himself, is obviously a real lowlife. A lawyer I used to work for said trials are about personalities and impressions. I always said they were about the facts and the law. The truth is they are really about both. It’s certainly true that if a jury is so turned off by a particular prosecution witness, they may acquit even if the facts are there for a conviction. We don’t know what the jury thinks of Michael Cohen. I imagine we will find out after the case is over.

Now it looks like we won’t get a verdict until next week.
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by dislaxxic »

youthathletics wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 11:52 am
njbill wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 11:25 am Yawn. The capo skimmed a little from mob boss. This was all brought out on direct examination a week ago.
Sure, but how do 12 trust anything he says has merit. Hell, Cohen and Stormy could have been banging and set trump up to fleece him :lol:
Rooting for an acquittal, YA? You believe he didn't do it...?...or...it's just not something worth being prosecuted for?

You think the J6 issue is worth him being prosecuted for? The Documents case? Is he innocent all around??

Trying to understand where you're coming from here...

..
"The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog." - Calvin, to Hobbes
PizzaSnake
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by PizzaSnake »

Only the best people? Looks like possible brownshirts recruiting.

“An entourage of more than a dozen supporters who joined President Donald J. Trump in a Manhattan courthouse on Monday included a former president of an outlaw motorcycle gang in New York City who spent years in prison on drug charges.

The man, Chuck Zito, helped found in the early 1980s the New York Nomads chapter of the Hells Angels, the infamous club that started in California. The Justice Department described the organization as a criminal enterprise and linked the New York chapter to the Gambino crime family. Mr. Zito later left the biker group to try become a movie star in Hollywood.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/20/nyre ... trial.html
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

dislaxxic wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 12:18 pm
youthathletics wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 11:52 am
njbill wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 11:25 am Yawn. The capo skimmed a little from mob boss. This was all brought out on direct examination a week ago.
Sure, but how do 12 trust anything he says has merit. Hell, Cohen and Stormy could have been banging and set trump up to fleece him :lol:
Rooting for an acquittal, YA? You believe he didn't do it...?...or...it's just not something worth being prosecuted for?

You think the J6 issue is worth him being prosecuted for? The Documents case? Is he innocent all around??

Trying to understand where you're coming from here...

..
He is definitely rooting for an acquittal. Trump is his guy. Three times.
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youthathletics
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by youthathletics »

dislaxxic wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 12:18 pm
youthathletics wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 11:52 am
njbill wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 11:25 am Yawn. The capo skimmed a little from mob boss. This was all brought out on direct examination a week ago.
Sure, but how do 12 trust anything he says has merit. Hell, Cohen and Stormy could have been banging and set trump up to fleece him :lol:
Rooting for an acquittal, YA? You believe he didn't do it...?...or...it's just not something worth being prosecuted for?

You think the J6 issue is worth him being prosecuted for? The Documents case? Is he innocent all around??

Trying to understand where you're coming from here...

..
Being pragmatic, you and seacoaster should try it. I want him in jail and to go away.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

youthathletics wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 12:52 pm
dislaxxic wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 12:18 pm
youthathletics wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 11:52 am
njbill wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 11:25 am Yawn. The capo skimmed a little from mob boss. This was all brought out on direct examination a week ago.
Sure, but how do 12 trust anything he says has merit. Hell, Cohen and Stormy could have been banging and set trump up to fleece him :lol:
Rooting for an acquittal, YA? You believe he didn't do it...?...or...it's just not something worth being prosecuted for?

You think the J6 issue is worth him being prosecuted for? The Documents case? Is he innocent all around??

Trying to understand where you're coming from here...

..
Being pragmatic, you and seacoaster should try it. I want him in jail and to go away.
So, which sets of indicted charges do you currently think he should be found guilty of doing?
You needn't parse each charge, just the sets. If any of the felony charges in a set should be found 'guilty' that's a guilty set.

4 main sets to date.

New York State election fraud coverup of hush money
Florida Federal documents and coverup
DC Federal Jan 6 and related fraud against US government
Georgia State RICO conspiracy to defraud re election

Any? Which? All 4?

Based on what you think you know so far, as indicted.

Obviously if there was substantial new information that could change your mind, that's another matter...but as of now?

I'm in the all 4 camp, though I think the current trial is likely to be a hung jury.
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youthathletics
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by youthathletics »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 1:37 pm
youthathletics wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 12:52 pm
dislaxxic wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 12:18 pm
youthathletics wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 11:52 am
njbill wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 11:25 am Yawn. The capo skimmed a little from mob boss. This was all brought out on direct examination a week ago.
Sure, but how do 12 trust anything he says has merit. Hell, Cohen and Stormy could have been banging and set trump up to fleece him :lol:
Rooting for an acquittal, YA? You believe he didn't do it...?...or...it's just not something worth being prosecuted for?

You think the J6 issue is worth him being prosecuted for? The Documents case? Is he innocent all around??

Trying to understand where you're coming from here...

..
Being pragmatic, you and seacoaster should try it. I want him in jail and to go away.
So, which sets of indicted charges do you currently think he should be found guilty of doing?
You needn't parse each charge, just the sets. If any of the felony charges in a set should be found 'guilty' that's a guilty set.

4 main sets to date.

New York State election fraud coverup of hush money
Florida Federal documents and coverup
DC Federal Jan 6 and related fraud against US government
Georgia State RICO conspiracy to defraud re election

Any? Which? All 4?

Based on what you think you know so far, as indicted.

Obviously if there was substantial new information that could change your mind, that's another matter...but as of now?

I'm in the all 4 camp, though I think the current trial is likely to be a hung jury.
I think he walks in all four and not because I want him. It is a rarity that people of this stature ever get in 'real' trouble, not to mention they prejudice of how so many view his being treated...I could see every jury being hung just out of general principle. It's they very reason why I've argued they (those bringing the charges) better have a rock solid case, otherwise they just empowered him even more.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Fri May 17, 2024 9:56 pm What does any of this have to do with whether or not the bookkeeping entry was a crime or not, a felony at that ?
If it was a falsehood AND Trump knew AND it was done at least in part to prevent publicity prior to the election, then a felony.

If a falsehood AND Trump knew BUT 100% not to prevent publicity that would negatively affect the Campaign, then a misdemeanor.

If Trump didn't know, might be a crime, but not committed by him.

Seems to me that it beggars the imagination to think that all 3 elements aren't clearly established by all sorts of paper evidence as well as various witness testimony. Only chance of not being found guilty of the felony is a hung jury. Only takes one holdout who believes the Trump/MAGA world propaganda.

But the media wants to breathlessly cover this like a horse race, as if the defense has actually destroyed the prosecution's case against Trump, rather than simply prove that Cohen is or at least was a POS criminal too.
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