QF #3 Hopkins vs #6 Virginia Sunday @2:30

[coda]

........ A good team at any of these programs is no longer a guarantee to make a Final Four

This. Exactly this.

Never was.

The Final Four teams from twenty years were more than good. “Good” has never been good enough for the Final Four.

This was true even in the 1970s and 1980s.

DocBarrister

Pay attention: he wrote good team "at any of these programs". Meaning in this context is SU and Hopkins.

He's right. I can name good not great SU teams that were a part of 22 FF's with no difficulty whatsoever. And then the "great" ones? That meant they had future HOF's all over the roster in one season.

The REASON SU kept making FF's is that the talent pool was so concentrated to just a few power teams. Syracuse had future 1st team AA's running second midfield, for heaven's sake.

Not anymore. And that's what Jrn19 means. Or that's how I read it, he can speak for himself.

Personally, as much as I'd like to see Syracuse win Championships? I enjoy the regular season SO MUCH MORE, because unlike from about 1980-2000 for Syracuse....W's are hard to come by against pretty much all of D1. It's great. The W's feel better, and earned.

And the conference tournaments are fantastic. Villanova stuck it to DU this year. And the Ivies? Every intra-conference game was a treat.

Our sport is in a great place. Next up? New blood in the FF........

Yes. You nailed my thoughts.

Cuse had a great team in 2011 that lost in the Quarterfinal. They had a very good team in 2015 that lost to Hopkins. They've lost in the Quarterfinals 3 straight times.

Hopkins had a really, really good team in 2018. Lost in the Quarters. They had a very good team this year. Lost in the Quarters.

Notre Dame lost four consecutive quarterfinals between 2016-2022 before they finally broke through and won the title

In 1999, Cuse made the Final Four as an 8 seed. They beat the #1 seed Loyola, one of the 2 or 3 best teams the Hounds ever had. And then they beat Georgetown in the only Final Four the Hoyas have ever played in. They lost to both of these teams in the playoffs in the last 5 years.

We don't have "parity", but it is unequivocably harder to make the Final Four now. It was hard to win it in those days cause of the great teams on that final weekend, but their path was easy

Which is why I consider Tillman to be the best in the business. His teams come to win at NCAA tournament time. Maryland always seems to have a blue collar mentality player who leads their way...this year, IMO, it's Weirman.

I think TIllman is the best lacrosse coach in the country. He isnt the best recruiter.

[Hoxwurth]

Which is why I consider Tillman to be the best in the business. His teams come to win at NCAA tournament time. Maryland always seems to have a blue collar mentality player who leads their way...this year, IMO, it's Weirman.

I think TIllman is the best lacrosse coach in the country. He isnt the best recruiter.

Tillman is great at scheming but watching his guys play makes clear that he's probably the best teacher in D1. Not sure he's the best coach of his generation yet, but he's on the short list.

[Matnum PI]

... He isnt the best recruiter.

Why do you say that? I'd argue that the best recruiters get the best talent and he undeniably gets some pretty top notch talent.

[coda]

... He isnt the best recruiter.

Why do you say that? I'd argue that the best recruiters get the best talent and he undeniably gets some pretty top notch talent.

I think he has slipped in recruiting recently, behind schools like Virginia.

[Matnum PI]

I think he has slipped in recruiting recently, behind schools like Virginia.

Right. I hear you. He isn't the *best* recruiter. That very well may be true. I do have to say. Watching UVA yesterday, they have a LOT of talent.

[coda]

I think he has slipped in recruiting recently, behind schools like Virginia.

Right. I hear you. He isn't the *best* recruiter. That very well may be true. I do have to say. Watching UVA yesterday, they have a LOT of talent.

just lacking some of those 5 stars. UVa has top 5 recruits riding the pine. Talent wise, Virginia should handle this one easily. Tillman and discipline is what will make this a game.

[Matnum PI]

... UVa has top 5 recruits riding the pine. Talent wise, Virginia should handle this one easily...

Other piece that I find interesting is that UVA likes physically big kids. They seemingly get to pick and choose who they ant on their squad and they want big, skillful athletes. Makes sense to me...

[nyjay]

Said ot before. You cant just rely on set offense. You need to push the ball at times. Hopkins had plenty of opportunities in the 4th quarter and Ot to push play.

Might as well get end of replay review if your not going to get it right. The non in crease call was awful.

Has to be conclusive for them to overturn, if they are 95% sure, they have to keep the call as is.

Hop was getting all the calls for the majority of the game so it wasn’t like calls were tilted all game. The first three penalties on UVA were all questionable and Hop scored on all three.

End of the day, the refs didn’t lose you the game, the pathetic offense over the last 20+ minutes did.

Your last sentence is entirely correct. The rest of the post is - well - not.

That “hold” on 49 to start the game was soft. He immediately dislodged the ball on his initial check, if you want to call a loose ball hold for standing over him during the gb fine but it definitely wasn’t a penalty. And the questionable slash on Shelly got stick. Two free goals.

It was “soft” to call this a hold.
https://x.com/opencrossplant/status/179 ... oMq8TH0DTg

[coda]

Said ot before. You cant just rely on set offense. You need to push the ball at times. Hopkins had plenty of opportunities in the 4th quarter and Ot to push play.

Might as well get end of replay review if your not going to get it right. The non in crease call was awful.

Has to be conclusive for them to overturn, if they are 95% sure, they have to keep the call as is.

Hop was getting all the calls for the majority of the game so it wasn’t like calls were tilted all game. The first three penalties on UVA were all questionable and Hop scored on all three.

End of the day, the refs didn’t lose you the game, the pathetic offense over the last 20+ minutes did.

Your last sentence is entirely correct. The rest of the post is - well - not.

That “hold” on 49 to start the game was soft. He immediately dislodged the ball on his initial check, if you want to call a loose ball hold for standing over him during the gb fine but it definitely wasn’t a penalty. And the questionable slash on Shelly got stick. Two free goals.

It was “soft” to call this a hold.
https://x.com/opencrossplant/status/179 ... oMq8TH0DTg

I really hate this. He did not lead with his helmet. The Helmets did hit, but it was the side of the defenders helmet that made contact. It was not the crown. There is a reason that the NFL and CFB have that designation. Now you have fans trying to find ways to get kids locked in the sin bin for 2 minutes for the slightest helmet contact.. It was bad call. There was no hold there. If the refs thought it was helmet to helmet, they shoudl have called that.

The "playing without a stick" is starting to get on my nervous. There was one where the offensive player lost his stick when he was knocked ot the ground and they blew the play dead while he was laying in a fetal position.

[Finster]

........ A good team at any of these programs is no longer a guarantee to make a Final Four

This. Exactly this.

Never was.

The Final Four teams from twenty years were more than good. “Good” has never been good enough for the Final Four.

This was true even in the 1970s and 1980s.

DocBarrister

Pay attention: he wrote good team "at any of these programs". Meaning in this context is SU and Hopkins.

He's right. I can name good not great SU teams that were a part of 22 FF's with no difficulty whatsoever. And then the "great" ones? That meant they had future HOF's all over the roster in one season.

The REASON SU kept making FF's is that the talent pool was so concentrated to just a few power teams. Syracuse had future 1st team AA's running second midfield, for heaven's sake.

Not anymore. And that's what Jrn19 means. Or that's how I read it, he can speak for himself.

Personally, as much as I'd like to see Syracuse win Championships? I enjoy the regular season SO MUCH MORE, because unlike from about 1980-2000 for Syracuse....W's are hard to come by against pretty much all of D1. It's great. The W's feel better, and earned.

And the conference tournaments are fantastic. Villanova stuck it to DU this year. And the Ivies? Every intra-conference game was a treat.

Our sport is in a great place. Next up? New blood in the FF........

Yes. You nailed my thoughts.

Cuse had a great team in 2011 that lost in the Quarterfinal. They had a very good team in 2015 that lost to Hopkins. They've lost in the Quarterfinals 3 straight times.

Hopkins had a really, really good team in 2018. Lost in the Quarters. They had a very good team this year. Lost in the Quarters.

Notre Dame lost four consecutive quarterfinals between 2016-2022 before they finally broke through and won the title

In 1999, Cuse made the Final Four as an 8 seed. They beat the #1 seed Loyola, one of the 2 or 3 best teams the Hounds ever had. And then they beat Georgetown in the only Final Four the Hoyas have ever played in. They lost to both of these teams in the playoffs in the last 5 years.

We don't have "parity", but it is unequivocably harder to make the Final Four now. It was hard to win it in those days cause of the great teams on that final weekend, but their path was easy

Which is why I consider Tillman to be the best in the business. His teams come to win at NCAA tournament time. Maryland always seems to have a blue collar mentality player who leads their way...this year, IMO, it's Weirman.

I think TIllman is the best lacrosse coach in the country. He isnt the best recruiter.

He’s not a bad one, that’s for sure.

[MDlaxfan76]

First, if anyone watched the first game today there were two reviewed calls that looked like the original call was wrong. But to overturn would need to be clear, irrefutable. And that simply wasn't sufficiently there in that film any more than earlier calls from prior game weren't overturned. Just too darn close. And no game is won or lost on a single play, a single missed shot, a single missed call, a single pipe, a single save...they all add up. Someone had to win in a game in which arguably neither team really did all as well as they could or should, yet each team made all sorts of marvelous plays nevertheless. Fun game for fans.

Second, why the heck does it need to be an insult to Petro to say that Milliman has done an excellent job in turning Hopkins back into a legitimate contender, an improved trajectory versus the prior cycle? Petro had an amazingly successful run as a player and as coach, less success later on needn't mean he's not HOF, period.

Seems to me that Hop fans should be celebrating the positive trajectory, not ripping the current coach because they came up short in a year when most of us preseason likely didn't expect them to make it to the final 8, much less a half inch away from final 4.

Game ball for Hop would have been Ierlan had they won, IMO.

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/league/di/polls/19/64

They were preseason #7, big 10 favorites, and returned just about everyone. They were expected to go to the final four by many in the sport. I had my doubts mid-season, but the expectations were there pre-season.

Interesting, I don't recall that being the sentiment expressed on here...but let's recognize for a moment that a #7 ranking was big jump forward from the results from pretty recent years.

[MDlaxfan76]

... He isnt the best recruiter.

Why do you say that? I'd argue that the best recruiters get the best talent and he undeniably gets some pretty top notch talent.

sheesh, of course he's a terrific recruiter. He's attracted tremendous talent in class after class, but odds are that not all collections will always achieve Championships. But here they are again...and they obviously have the "talent" to be there.

That needn't mean 'best', but top 4 surely.

[nyjay]

I really hate this. He did not lead with his helmet. The Helmets did hit, but it was the side of the defenders helmet that made contact. It was not the crown. There is a reason that the NFL and CFB have that designation. Now you have fans trying to find ways to get kids locked in the sin bin for 2 minutes for the slightest helmet contact.. It was bad call. There was no hold there. If the refs thought it was helmet to helmet, they shoudl have called that.

If you want to argue about what the rule SHOULD be, I think you and I will agree. Personally, I don't like the various nonreleasable head/neck contact rules. I believe that a nonreleasable penalty should require some kind of intent or at least recklessness. And I've said that a number of times in a number of difference forums on this site during the course of the year.

However, based on the what the rule actually IS that play by 49 is a two minute nonreleasable penalty. The rule makes no mention of crown of helmet - it just speaks in terms of "direct contact to the head". And that's how the rule has been called all year (go back and look at the nonreleasable that Scott Smith got at the end of the Denver game, which basically cost Hop a win) - even if I disagree with it. But to say that the hold was "soft" and ignore an actual more severe foul on the play is ridiculous.

[coda]

I really hate this. He did not lead with his helmet. The Helmets did hit, but it was the side of the defenders helmet that made contact. It was not the crown. There is a reason that the NFL and CFB have that designation. Now you have fans trying to find ways to get kids locked in the sin bin for 2 minutes for the slightest helmet contact.. It was bad call. There was no hold there. If the refs thought it was helmet to helmet, they shoudl have called that.

If you want to argue about what the rule SHOULD be, I think you and I will agree. Personally, I don't like the various nonreleasable head/neck contact rules. I believe that a nonreleasable penalty should require some kind of intent or at least recklessness. And I've said that a number of times in a number of difference forums on this site during the course of the year.

However, based on the what the rule actually IS that play by 49 is a two minute nonreleasable penalty. The rule makes no mention of crown of helmet - it just speaks in terms of "direct contact to the head". And that's how the rule has been called all year (go back and look at the nonreleasable that Scott Smith got at the end of the Denver game, which basically cost Hop a win) - even if I disagree with it. But to say that the hold was "soft" and ignore an actual more severe foul on the play is ridiculous.

I am not sure that was direct. I believe the rule is initiate contact with the ball carrier's head or neck. I don think that is the case here. I think he initiated contact with his shoulder to essentially shoulder. Head was indirect. By the way, this is why I have been against rules like this. Rules should punish the process, not the result. Cross checking is another bad one. They allow cross-checking, as long as, it doesnt knock a player over or hit the head and neck area. It almost like College lacrosse has taken a cue from kids rec officiating. If it is a big hit, it is a flag. I think this is an example. Big hit, have to call something.

[nyjay]

I am not sure that was direct. I believe the rule is initiate contact with the ball carrier's head or neck. I don think that is the case here. I think he initiated contact with his shoulder to essentially shoulder. Head was indirect. By the way, this is why I have been against rules like this. Rules should punish the process, not the result. Cross checking is another bad one. They all cross-checking, as long as, it doesnt knock a player over or hit the head and neck area. It almost like College lacrosse has taken a cue from kids rec officiating. It the hit is big, it is a flag. I think this is an example. Big hit, have to call something.

OK - then if it was "indirect", according to the rule it's a one minute nonreleasable rather than a two minute. Again, I don't like the rule, but that is the rule and how it's been called all year. And it should have been called here.

Totally agree that in most cases, that will live in the world of big hit = flag (whether legal or not), though with one exception - seems to be legal to completely blow up picks these days. Your rec analogy is spot on - I have one kid who's just very big for his age and is fairly aggressive and plays D. He got 3 penalties a game in town lacrosse without really doing much. In summer club ball, it went down to about 1 a game.

[coda]

I am not sure that was direct. I believe the rule is initiate contact with the ball carrier's head or neck. I don think that is the case here. I think he initiated contact with his shoulder to essentially shoulder. Head was indirect. By the way, this is why I have been against rules like this. Rules should punish the process, not the result. Cross checking is another bad one. They all cross-checking, as long as, it doesnt knock a player over or hit the head and neck area. It almost like College lacrosse has taken a cue from kids rec officiating. It the hit is big, it is a flag. I think this is an example. Big hit, have to call something.

OK - then if it was "indirect", according to the rule it's a one minute nonreleasable rather than a two minute. Again, I don't like the rule, but that is the rule and how it's been called all year. And it should have been called here.

Totally agree that in most cases, that will live in the world of big hit = flag (whether legal or not), though with one exception - seems to be legal to completely blow up picks these days. Your rec analogy is spot on - I have one kid who's just very big for his age and is fairly aggressive and plays D. He got 3 penalties a game in town lacrosse without really doing much. In summer club ball, it went down to about 1 a game.

yes, blow up picks seems to be OK all of sudden. Allowing the push in back is pretty common also. Attack baseball swing on the clear has always been legal to the chagrin of Dpoles and Middies..

[1766]

Hop let one slip. You have to be questioning overall philosophy going into a shell before the 4th quarter even starts.

[BigTom5]

Hop let one slip. You have to be questioning overall philosophy going into a shell before the 4th quarter even starts.

Correct, totally let one slip. UVAs offense could not finish to save their life. The fact that Cormier missed his first 10 shots, all normally dunks for him, most with his hands free, was like hitting the lottery. That and Lars starting a goalie who he admitted wasn’t seeing the ball all week in practice, should have been enough of an advantage to get Hop a win.

[jhu72]

Sorry to p*ss in the punch bowl, but the NCAA rules committee and the referees were made to look incompetent by the UVA goal which resulted in the game going into overtime. It was not a close call! The player stepped on the line prior to the ball entering the goal and prior to his own release of the ball. Close examination of the video clip on a computer shows this. This was not a case of not enough information to overturn the call. It was clear. There are only two ways the referees could have missed this call, 1) the equipment they were using or 2) they didn't want for human reasons having to do with blame for changing the outcome of the game. They were going to take that blame in either case, I could not be avoided. Perhaps they had a preference for which side of the blame they thought more acceptable.

Some have said the crease lines should be a color capable of showing better contrast - this is a good idea, but again not necessary in this case. The correct call could have been made as the coloring stood. Trying to do this analysis on inferior equipment or in the glare of the sun could cause problems.

No matter the reason - they missed the call! MLB does a much better job with video review, they use first rate video equipment in a darkened room where glare is not an issue and remove the human factor by making the call remotely (an individual who will not take heat from a coach in his face).

The other possibility is stop doing video review if you are not going to commit to doing the best job you can.

[stupefied]

Yep, Cormier normally buries those looks , Shelly had strong game but also had some good open looks from up top that he normally cans . Great game by Ierlan wasted .


Expect Lars to start Morris vs Maryland , believe better team won yesterday but this UVA team has flaws that can be exploited