WLAX Bracketology

[Womenslaxxfan]

Duke getting in is a farce. They looked like a talented JV team last time out against BC. They need to get Loyola to OT in order to save face at all. If they get running clocked, the committee has explaining to do.

This comes down to the committee bringing in personal relationships from outside. It’s the only thing that makes any sense. Not sure if that’s part of the selection criteria?

Navy should have been in. The committee uses RPI in some cases (Fairfield getting in with the 50+ ranked strength of schedule) and ignores it other cases (Duke getting in with a top 10 ranked SOS and one good win). 6 ACC teams get in.

There needs to be a better way to do this. If I’m navy, I’m dropping Duke next year and trying to get as many top 20 ranked RPI teams as possible in order to get the golden win. Forget your record, you will be .500 with the Patriot League cupcakes. Add NW, Cuse, Maryland, Virginia, etc.

The committee get a grade of F-. Duke getting in is an absolute joke. The Navy head to head win over Duke should have gotten Navy in. I also think that a very talented Notre Dame team that has won 10 of their last 11 is a dangerous opponent for 2 seed Boston College. I think Maryland got a very favorable seed. That was a really bad loss at home to Rutgers. Penn beat them at Maryland. The Terps are ranked 11th but receive a 4 seed and home field?

This might be the 3rd year in a row that ND has traveled to BC for the NCAA. Would be nice to see some variety from the committee. ND is a good team but BC is not a favorable match-up for them. The game between MI and ND is a toss up. ND may never face BC. Wonder how much Cathy Reese being part of the selection committee impacted MD favorable seeding?

Once you introduce the polls or the eye test, you throw objectivity out the window. This is a lot of outrage over the last team included. And I think that much of it is because of Duke and the animus they face on this board.

And Maryland may not be the 4th best team in the country right now , they absolutely deserve a strong seed based on the quality of the teams they beat earlier this season.

I happen to think the committee did a nice job and articulated a coherent methodology. Beat the strongest teams. Often.

[610Lax]

As I have written, I disagree and thought Duke should have been included. Attributing “save missy” or “save Kirsten” to the motivation of the committee seems a bit petulant to me…

Sorry. That came off badly. Should have said sour grapes.
I get why people thibk navy deserved it based on h2h. But I prefer best win and sos. So preferred duke.

Not sure kimel or Doherty were big factors…

By that rationale every ACC and Big 10 team should be in the tournament because they'll all have a high strength of schedule. Go a step further and look at their wins. With the exception of Virginia, Duke beat absolutely no one. And even some of their wins should be questioned. 2 goal wins vs East Carolina and Pitt?

[watcherinthewoods]

What an embarrassment for the sport of women's lacrosse to have a team (Maryland) ranked 13th, yet seeded 4th. Can you imagine the outcry if football or men's or women's basketball playoffs were seeded this way?

This is why my non-lax fan husband says lax will always be bush league ... too much politics.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Once you introduce the polls or the eye test, you throw objectivity out the window. This is a lot of outrage over the last team included. And I think that much of it is because of Duke and the animus they face on this board.

And Maryland may not be the 4th best team in the country right now, they absolutely deserve a strong seed based on the quality of the teams they beat earlier this season.

I happen to think the committee did a nice job and articulated a coherent methodology. Beat the strongest teams. Often.

Agreed on all.

Duke beat the 5 seed--convincingly. In my mind, they made the Dance on that one game. No problem with them making the cut whatsoever.

As to Maryland, they beat the 3 seed. Who should have got the 4 seed? Which 5-8 seed should get moved into their slot?

It's all going to come out in the wash, anyway…

[watcherinthewoods]

Duke getting in is a farce. They looked like a talented JV team last time out against BC. They need to get Loyola to OT in order to save face at all. If they get running clocked, the committee has explaining to do.

This comes down to the committee bringing in personal relationships from outside. It’s the only thing that makes any sense. Not sure if that’s part of the selection criteria?

Navy should have been in. The committee uses RPI in some cases (Fairfield getting in with the 50+ ranked strength of schedule) and ignores it other cases (Duke getting in with a top 10 ranked SOS and one good win). 6 ACC teams get in.

There needs to be a better way to do this. If I’m navy, I’m dropping Duke next year and trying to get as many top 20 ranked RPI teams as possible in order to get the golden win. Forget your record, you will be .500 with the Patriot League cupcakes. Add NW, Cuse, Maryland, Virginia, etc.

The committee get a grade of F-. Duke getting in is an absolute joke. The Navy head to head win over Duke should have gotten Navy in. I also think that a very talented Notre Dame team that has won 10 of their last 11 is a dangerous opponent for 2 seed Boston College. I think Maryland got a very favorable seed. That was a really bad loss at home to Rutgers. Penn beat them at Maryland. The Terps are ranked 11th but receive a 4 seed and home field?

This might be the 3rd year in a row that ND has traveled to BC for the NCAA. Would be nice to see some variety from the committee. ND is a good team but BC is not a favorable match-up for them. The game between MI and ND is a toss up. ND may never face BC. Wonder how much Cathy Reese being part of the selection committee impacted MD favorable seeding?

With the exception of the year that Princeton served as Cuse's "home field", it seems like every year the Tigers have to go through BC to get out of the initial rounds. Geography always plays a role in the bracket and by geography, I mean travel costs.

[Carolinagrad]

Once you introduce the polls or the eye test, you throw objectivity out the window. This is a lot of outrage over the last team included. And I think that much of it is because of Duke and the animus they face on this board.

And Maryland may not be the 4th best team in the country right now, they absolutely deserve a strong seed based on the quality of the teams they beat earlier this season.

I happen to think the committee did a nice job and articulated a coherent methodology. Beat the strongest teams. Often.

Agreed on all.

Duke beat the 5 seed--convincingly. In my mind, they made the Dance on that one game. No problem with them making the cut whatsoever.

As to Maryland, they beat the 3 seed. Who should have got the 4 seed? Which 5-8 seed should get moved into their slot?

It's all going to come out in the wash, anyway…

So you think right now Maryland is the 4th best team in the country? They are 3-4 in their last seven games, including a really bad loss to a subpar Rutgers team. Notre Dame deserves to be ahead of them.

Duke did not beat the "strongest teams, often." They were 1-7 against ranked teams. That is not worthy of a selection.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Once you introduce the polls or the eye test, you throw objectivity out the window. This is a lot of outrage over the last team included. And I think that much of it is because of Duke and the animus they face on this board.

And Maryland may not be the 4th best team in the country right now, they absolutely deserve a strong seed based on the quality of the teams they beat earlier this season.

I happen to think the committee did a nice job and articulated a coherent methodology. Beat the strongest teams. Often.

Agreed on all.

Duke beat the 5 seed--convincingly. In my mind, they made the Dance on that one game. No problem with them making the cut whatsoever.

As to Maryland, they beat the 3 seed. Who should have got the 4 seed? Which 5-8 seed should get moved into their slot?

It's all going to come out in the wash, anyway…

So you think right now Maryland is the 4th best team in the country? They are 3-4 in their last seven games, including a really bad loss to a subpar Rutgers team. Notre Dame deserves to be ahead of them.

Duke did not beat the "strongest teams, often." They were 1-7 against ranked teams. That is not worthy of a selection.

Yeah--I could see that. I wouldn't kick up no fuss if the Irish were awarded the 4 seed.

[Womenslaxxfan]

Once you introduce the polls or the eye test, you throw objectivity out the window. This is a lot of outrage over the last team included. And I think that much of it is because of Duke and the animus they face on this board.

And Maryland may not be the 4th best team in the country right now, they absolutely deserve a strong seed based on the quality of the teams they beat earlier this season.

I happen to think the committee did a nice job and articulated a coherent methodology. Beat the strongest teams. Often.

Agreed on all.

Duke beat the 5 seed--convincingly. In my mind, they made the Dance on that one game. No problem with them making the cut whatsoever.

As to Maryland, they beat the 3 seed. Who should have got the 4 seed? Which 5-8 seed should get moved into their slot?

It's all going to come out in the wash, anyway…

So you think right now Maryland is the 4th best team in the country? They are 3-4 in their last seven games, including a really bad loss to a subpar Rutgers team. Notre Dame deserves to be ahead of them.

Duke did not beat the "strongest teams, often." They were 1-7 against ranked teams. That is not worthy of a selection.

Let me amend my statement. If you want to get in the tourney, beat at least one of the strongest teams. If you want a seed beat them often!!

[intheknow247]

Once you introduce the polls or the eye test, you throw objectivity out the window. This is a lot of outrage over the last team included. And I think that much of it is because of Duke and the animus they face on this board.

And Maryland may not be the 4th best team in the country right now, they absolutely deserve a strong seed based on the quality of the teams they beat earlier this season.

I happen to think the committee did a nice job and articulated a coherent methodology. Beat the strongest teams. Often.

Agreed on all.

Duke beat the 5 seed--convincingly. In my mind, they made the Dance on that one game. No problem with them making the cut whatsoever.

As to Maryland, they beat the 3 seed. Who should have got the 4 seed? Which 5-8 seed should get moved into their slot?

It's all going to come out in the wash, anyway…

So you think right now Maryland is the 4th best team in the country? They are 3-4 in their last seven games, including a really bad loss to a subpar Rutgers team. Notre Dame deserves to be ahead of them.

Duke did not beat the "strongest teams, often." They were 1-7 against ranked teams. That is not worthy of a selection.

I def don't think MD is 4th best team in the country right now but selection criteria looks at the entire season and puts metrics to it pretty well. Also, who is worthy of a selection over Duke?

[BigRedChant]

Navy (15-4) beat Duke (10-8) H2H and most recently lost by 1 to 8 seed Loyola in OT.

Duke’s most recent game was 19-5 loss to BC (a more lopsided win for BC than when they played Albany).

Seems obvious that Duke got a pity pass

[Seacoaster(1)]

Navy (15-4) beat Duke (10-8) H2H and most recently lost by 1 to 8 seed Loyola in OT.

Duke’s most recent game was 19-5 loss to BC (a more lopsided win for BC than when they played Albany).

Seems obvious that Duke got a pity pass

Quick rant in response:

Agreed. The Duke loss to Navy was early in the year...and if Duke's trajectory thereafter had been improving (like the W against UVA seemed, maybe, to suggest), well fine, put Duke in the rarified air of the tournament. But after losing to Navy, all Duke meaningfully did the rest of the way was lose badly (JHU at home; Clemson by 9 goals at home; Syracuse badly; BC really badly; Notre Dame really badly) and win the Tournament of Cupcakes against Winthrop, Campbell, ECU [by two goals], Liberty [by three], and High Point.

For a program with the recruiting advantages in academics, national reputation, facilities, support for athletes, and a leading lacrosse conference, Duke's performance is a D. I'm not a "Duke hater;" I have been on record as saying they have long underperformed, and the evident reward of placing them in this tournament bespeaks a bit of favoritism, if not a fraud. Go Hounds!!

[bobinvaluvswlax]

Navy beat Duke when Duke was ranked at #24. Navy led the entire game.
Navy beat Richmond when Richmond was ranked at #20. Led the entire game.
Navy lost to Drexel by 1 and St Joe's by 1. Both mid week games in the rain. Loyola was a mid week game and was decided by 1 quarter. Navy changed goalies at the half and actually out scored Loyola during the second half.
I know none of this matters to the committee but Navy was deserving of a bid IMHO.

[LaxDadMax]

Devil's advocate here (pun kinda intended)

Why are we giving Fairfield a free pass here? Agree Navy should be in, but....

Does anyone here think Fairfield would beat Duke on a neutral field?

Fairfield has 2 pretty bad losses (HC and Niagra), much worse than Duke's worse loss (Clemson). In terms of wins, their best win is Drexel. A nice win, but doesn't compare to beating UVA (Duke) or beating Duke (Navy). Also the MAAC is nowhere close in quality to Patriot league.

[610Lax]

Devil's advocate here (pun kinda intended)

Why are we giving Fairfield a free pass here? Agree Navy should be in, but....

Does anyone here think Fairfield would beat Duke on a neutral field?

Fairfield has 2 pretty bad losses (HC and Niagra), much worse than Duke's worse loss (Clemson). In terms of wins, their best win is Drexel. A nice win, but doesn't compare to beating UVA (Duke) or beating Duke (Navy). Also the MAAC is nowhere close in quality to Patriot league.

It may not be academically, but outside of Loyola, it is significantly better in lacrosse. Siena, the 3rd team in the MAAC is 3-0 vs the Patriot. The MAAC as a whole was 6-4 vs the Patriot. They also had a winning record vs the Big East and A10 and were .500 vs the Ivy's. The Patriot is a 1 team conference with another often overvalued one in Navy and two average teams this year. The bottom six teams are below average routinely.

You haven't watched Fairfield(or Duke) if you don't think they would easily beat Duke on a neutral field.

[Hello]

Call me crazy but I think Fairfield v. Hopkins could be a game Friday. And I would take Stanford over Denver.

[NULax2]

Call me crazy but I think Fairfield v. Hopkins could be a game Friday. And I would take Stanford over Denver.

I'm going with Stanford. Denver is not the same without Thacker.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Call me crazy but I think Fairfield v. Hopkins could be a game Friday. And I would take Stanford over Denver.

I'm going with Stanford. Denver is not the same without Thacker.

Not sure Stanford has it in their NCAA DNA to fight and scrap out a win against an equal opponent. They didn't even get off the bus against Jacksonville a couple tournaments ago.

[intheknow247]

Devil's advocate here (pun kinda intended)

Why are we giving Fairfield a free pass here? Agree Navy should be in, but....

Does anyone here think Fairfield would beat Duke on a neutral field?

Fairfield has 2 pretty bad losses (HC and Niagra), much worse than Duke's worse loss (Clemson). In terms of wins, their best win is Drexel. A nice win, but doesn't compare to beating UVA (Duke) or beating Duke (Navy). Also the MAAC is nowhere close in quality to Patriot league.

THIS!!! Fairfield getting in over Navy is more debate than Duke over Navy.

[bobinvaluvswlax]

Devil's advocate here (pun kinda intended)

Why are we giving Fairfield a free pass here? Agree Navy should be in, but....

Does anyone here think Fairfield would beat Duke on a neutral field?

Fairfield has 2 pretty bad losses (HC and Niagra), much worse than Duke's worse loss (Clemson). In terms of wins, their best win is Drexel. A nice win, but doesn't compare to beating UVA (Duke) or beating Duke (Navy). Also the MAAC is nowhere close in quality to Patriot league.

It may not be academically, but outside of Loyola, it is significantly better in lacrosse. Siena, the 3rd team in the MAAC is 3-0 vs the Patriot. The MAAC as a whole was 6-4 vs the Patriot. They also had a winning record vs the Big East and A10 and were .500 vs the Ivy's. The Patriot is a 1 team conference with another often overvalued one in Navy and two average teams this year. The bottom six teams are below average routinely.

You haven't watched Fairfield(or Duke) if you don't think they would easily beat Duke on a neutral field.

Fairfield is good at lacrosse. Perennially at the top of the MAAC. Teams in the Patriot league that I believe could beat them include Loyola, Navy, Army and probably Holy Cross in a rematch. Loyola, Navy and even recently Holy Cross were discussed as potentially in the tournament.
Latest coaches poll has Navy #20, Colorado #21 and Fairfield #25.
The question on them was also in regard to the committees selection criteria. If they weight RPI evenly across the teams then Fairfield (16) and Navy (22) are in. If they weight SOS then Duke (12) and Colorado (27) are in. Navy (45) still has a better SOS than Fairfield (59). Head to head would exclude Duke over Navy after the Navy win. There is no formula that when applied evenly to all the teams yields the results that were presented.

[LaxDadMax]

Devil's advocate here (pun kinda intended)

Why are we giving Fairfield a free pass here? Agree Navy should be in, but....

Does anyone here think Fairfield would beat Duke on a neutral field?

Fairfield has 2 pretty bad losses (HC and Niagra), much worse than Duke's worse loss (Clemson). In terms of wins, their best win is Drexel. A nice win, but doesn't compare to beating UVA (Duke) or beating Duke (Navy). Also the MAAC is nowhere close in quality to Patriot league.

It may not be academically, but outside of Loyola, it is significantly better in lacrosse. Siena, the 3rd team in the MAAC is 3-0 vs the Patriot. The MAAC as a whole was 6-4 vs the Patriot. They also had a winning record vs the Big East and A10 and were .500 vs the Ivy's. The Patriot is a 1 team conference with another often overvalued one in Navy and two average teams this year. The bottom six teams are below average routinely.

You haven't watched Fairfield(or Duke) if you don't think they would easily beat Duke on a neutral field.

Fairfield is good at lacrosse. Perennially at the top of the MAAC. Teams in the Patriot league that I believe could beat them include Loyola, Navy, Army and probably Holy Cross in a rematch. Loyola, Navy and even recently Holy Cross were discussed as potentially in the tournament.
Latest coaches poll has Navy #20, Colorado #21 and Fairfield #25.
The question on them was also in regard to the committees selection criteria. If they weight RPI evenly across the teams then Fairfield (16) and Navy (22) are in. If they weight SOS then Duke (12) and Colorado (27) are in. Navy (45) still has a better SOS than Fairfield (59). Head to head would exclude Duke over Navy after the Navy win. There is no formula that when applied evenly to all the teams yields the results that were presented.

I can easily justify Navy over Duke based on RPI and head to head.
I can easily justify Duke over Fairfield based on quality wins, quality loss and SOS
I can easily justify Navy over Fairfield based on quality wins, quality losses
I could justify Fairfield over Duke based on RPI alone.
I can't find anything to justify Fairfield over Navy other than a small difference in RPI.