Progressive Ideology

[a fan]

Today (Friday 4/20) the UAW announced that the UAW has won the unionization vote in the Volkswagen plant in Chattanooga. A 4300 worker plant. This is the first time since 1940s that an auto plant in the south has been unionized via a worker vote. The Vance Alabama Mercedes plant is scheduled to vote to join the UAW in mid-May. Volkswagen is just the first. The 4 US Tesla factories are also on the UAW list.

what is the affiliation with progressive ideology?

Is that a serious question?

I think he is saying that the union these workers are now members of tends to be tenacious supporters of progressive democrats. I spent 5 years as a dues paying member of our local Teamsters Local 118 and they couldn't have been more useless when it came to their union members. I wish these new union members the best of luck. Does this mean the average price of a VW is going to decrease?

I suppose….I still don’t follow the ‘progressive’ connection.

Worker's Unions= Progressive.

Using every tool in the tool box to dismantle them, and to force Americans to compete with the global labor market (NAFTA, etc): Conservative

Thanks, but still weird….I’ve never associated blue collar workers unions with progressive ideology.

Labor Unions literally mark the start of Progressives in America, and went national with the arrival of factory work. Read TLD's link.

[youthathletics]

Today (Friday 4/20) the UAW announced that the UAW has won the unionization vote in the Volkswagen plant in Chattanooga. A 4300 worker plant. This is the first time since 1940s that an auto plant in the south has been unionized via a worker vote. The Vance Alabama Mercedes plant is scheduled to vote to join the UAW in mid-May. Volkswagen is just the first. The 4 US Tesla factories are also on the UAW list.

what is the affiliation with progressive ideology?

Is that a serious question?

I think he is saying that the union these workers are now members of tends to be tenacious supporters of progressive democrats. I spent 5 years as a dues paying member of our local Teamsters Local 118 and they couldn't have been more useless when it came to their union members. I wish these new union members the best of luck. Does this mean the average price of a VW is going to decrease?

I suppose….I still don’t follow the ‘progressive’ connection.

Worker's Unions= Progressive.

Using every tool in the tool box to dismantle them, and to force Americans to compete with the global labor market (NAFTA, etc): Conservative

Thanks, but still weird….I’ve never associated blue collar workers unions with progressive ideology.

Labor Unions literally mark the start of Progressives in America, and went national with the arrival of factory work. Read TLD's link.

I understand all that, but JHU’s post implies that there is some kind of gotcha here, I assume towards republicans. When in fact, many r’s are pro workers and even unions, more towards those that are centrists like the ‘new nationalism’ of Teddy.

I suppose I just overthought it.

[a fan]

Today (Friday 4/20) the UAW announced that the UAW has won the unionization vote in the Volkswagen plant in Chattanooga. A 4300 worker plant. This is the first time since 1940s that an auto plant in the south has been unionized via a worker vote. The Vance Alabama Mercedes plant is scheduled to vote to join the UAW in mid-May. Volkswagen is just the first. The 4 US Tesla factories are also on the UAW list.

what is the affiliation with progressive ideology?

Is that a serious question?

I think he is saying that the union these workers are now members of tends to be tenacious supporters of progressive democrats. I spent 5 years as a dues paying member of our local Teamsters Local 118 and they couldn't have been more useless when it came to their union members. I wish these new union members the best of luck. Does this mean the average price of a VW is going to decrease?

I suppose….I still don’t follow the ‘progressive’ connection.

Worker's Unions= Progressive.

Using every tool in the tool box to dismantle them, and to force Americans to compete with the global labor market (NAFTA, etc): Conservative

Thanks, but still weird….I’ve never associated blue collar workers unions with progressive ideology.

Labor Unions literally mark the start of Progressives in America, and went national with the arrival of factory work. Read TLD's link.

I understand all that, but JHU’s post implies that there is some kind of gotcha here, I assume towards republicans. When in fact, many r’s are pro workers and even unions, more towards those that are centrists like the ‘new nationalism’ of Teddy.

I suppose I just overthought it.

Oh, got it. I understand.

[youthathletics]

Today (Friday 4/20) the UAW announced that the UAW has won the unionization vote in the Volkswagen plant in Chattanooga. A 4300 worker plant. This is the first time since 1940s that an auto plant in the south has been unionized via a worker vote. The Vance Alabama Mercedes plant is scheduled to vote to join the UAW in mid-May. Volkswagen is just the first. The 4 US Tesla factories are also on the UAW list.

what is the affiliation with progressive ideology?

Is that a serious question?

I think he is saying that the union these workers are now members of tends to be tenacious supporters of progressive democrats. I spent 5 years as a dues paying member of our local Teamsters Local 118 and they couldn't have been more useless when it came to their union members. I wish these new union members the best of luck. Does this mean the average price of a VW is going to decrease?

I suppose….I still don’t follow the ‘progressive’ connection.

Worker's Unions= Progressive.

Using every tool in the tool box to dismantle them, and to force Americans to compete with the global labor market (NAFTA, etc): Conservative

Thanks, but still weird….I’ve never associated blue collar workers unions with progressive ideology.

Labor Unions literally mark the start of Progressives in America, and went national with the arrival of factory work. Read TLD's link.

I understand all that, but JHU’s post implies that there is some kind of gotcha here, I assume towards republicans. When in fact, many r’s are pro workers and even unions, more towards those that are centrists like the ‘new nationalism’ of Teddy.

I suppose I just overthought it.

Oh, got it. I understand.

More info pertaining to our conversation: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... _side.html

[a fan]

Today (Friday 4/20) the UAW announced that the UAW has won the unionization vote in the Volkswagen plant in Chattanooga. A 4300 worker plant. This is the first time since 1940s that an auto plant in the south has been unionized via a worker vote. The Vance Alabama Mercedes plant is scheduled to vote to join the UAW in mid-May. Volkswagen is just the first. The 4 US Tesla factories are also on the UAW list.

what is the affiliation with progressive ideology?

Is that a serious question?

I think he is saying that the union these workers are now members of tends to be tenacious supporters of progressive democrats. I spent 5 years as a dues paying member of our local Teamsters Local 118 and they couldn't have been more useless when it came to their union members. I wish these new union members the best of luck. Does this mean the average price of a VW is going to decrease?

I suppose….I still don’t follow the ‘progressive’ connection.

Worker's Unions= Progressive.

Using every tool in the tool box to dismantle them, and to force Americans to compete with the global labor market (NAFTA, etc): Conservative

Thanks, but still weird….I’ve never associated blue collar workers unions with progressive ideology.

Labor Unions literally mark the start of Progressives in America, and went national with the arrival of factory work. Read TLD's link.

I understand all that, but JHU’s post implies that there is some kind of gotcha here, I assume towards republicans. When in fact, many r’s are pro workers and even unions, more towards those that are centrists like the ‘new nationalism’ of Teddy.

I suppose I just overthought it.

Oh, got it. I understand.

More info pertaining to our conversation: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... _side.html

And this adds a point I've been making here for years: Dems aren't progressives...or "libs".

They're center right. NAFTA? That's not "workers of the world unite".

That's: "F you, we're going to move the value of your labor to the global mean". In other words: get ready for your wages to go down, which is exactly what happened, adjusted for inflation. Clinton did that. And Obama kept it going, and believed in it because, yes, free trade increase GDP for countries. But the part the Friedman's of the world never tell you, because no one bothered to ask them, it's going to move labor value to the global mean. That's a sh(t deal if you're an American making the best wages in the world...which we were in the Unionized Post-WWII era.

So yes, the Dems turned their backs on Labor. And the R's never faced labor in the first place.

And the handful of actual libs like Bernie, who ACTUALLY want to help the working class? He was made fun of by the very working class voters who he tried to help. It's freaking sad, if you ask me.

[youthathletics]

Today (Friday 4/20) the UAW announced that the UAW has won the unionization vote in the Volkswagen plant in Chattanooga. A 4300 worker plant. This is the first time since 1940s that an auto plant in the south has been unionized via a worker vote. The Vance Alabama Mercedes plant is scheduled to vote to join the UAW in mid-May. Volkswagen is just the first. The 4 US Tesla factories are also on the UAW list.

what is the affiliation with progressive ideology?

Is that a serious question?

I think he is saying that the union these workers are now members of tends to be tenacious supporters of progressive democrats. I spent 5 years as a dues paying member of our local Teamsters Local 118 and they couldn't have been more useless when it came to their union members. I wish these new union members the best of luck. Does this mean the average price of a VW is going to decrease?

I suppose….I still don’t follow the ‘progressive’ connection.

Worker's Unions= Progressive.

Using every tool in the tool box to dismantle them, and to force Americans to compete with the global labor market (NAFTA, etc): Conservative

Thanks, but still weird….I’ve never associated blue collar workers unions with progressive ideology.

Labor Unions literally mark the start of Progressives in America, and went national with the arrival of factory work. Read TLD's link.

I understand all that, but JHU’s post implies that there is some kind of gotcha here, I assume towards republicans. When in fact, many r’s are pro workers and even unions, more towards those that are centrists like the ‘new nationalism’ of Teddy.

I suppose I just overthought it.

Oh, got it. I understand.

More info pertaining to our conversation: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... _side.html

And this adds a point I've been making here for years: Dems aren't progressives...or "libs".

They're center right. NAFTA? That's not "workers of the world unite".

That's: "F you, we're going to move the value of your labor to the global mean". In other words: get ready for your wages to go down, which is exactly what happened, adjusted for inflation. Clinton did that. And Obama kept it going, and believed in it because, yes, free trade increase GDP for countries. But the part the Friedman's of the world never tell you, because no one bothered to ask them, it's going to move labor value to the global mean. That's a sh(t deal if you're an American making the best wages in the world...which we were in the Unionized Post-WWII era.

So yes, the Dems turned their backs on Labor. And the R's never faced labor in the first place.

And the handful of actual libs like Bernie, who ACTUALLY want to help the working class? He was made fun of by the very working class voters who he tried to help. It's freaking sad, if you ask me.

You said quite a bit, but I do not follow you on the portion above in bold. Are you conflating post cv19 with your historical Clinton/BHO comment? Is your stance, reading between the lines, that once and when the USA labor market is spooled up even more, making tons of widgets etc., that we will have to lower our costs to compete with lower labor wages everyone else? This would be an interesting conversation face to face.

I think you also overlook the value that unions provide in training, benefits, collective bargaining, prevailing wage, safety...and when I speak about unions, to be clear, I am NOT talking about state and federal type unions.

[jhu72]

Today (Friday 4/20) the UAW announced that the UAW has won the unionization vote in the Volkswagen plant in Chattanooga. A 4300 worker plant. This is the first time since 1940s that an auto plant in the south has been unionized via a worker vote. The Vance Alabama Mercedes plant is scheduled to vote to join the UAW in mid-May. Volkswagen is just the first. The 4 US Tesla factories are also on the UAW list.

what is the affiliation with progressive ideology?

Is that a serious question?

I think he is saying that the union these workers are now members of tends to be tenacious supporters of progressive democrats. I spent 5 years as a dues paying member of our local Teamsters Local 118 and they couldn't have been more useless when it came to their union members. I wish these new union members the best of luck. Does this mean the average price of a VW is going to decrease?

I suppose….I still don’t follow the ‘progressive’ connection.

Worker's Unions= Progressive.

Using every tool in the tool box to dismantle them, and to force Americans to compete with the global labor market (NAFTA, etc): Conservative

Thanks, but still weird….I’ve never associated blue collar workers unions with progressive ideology.

Labor Unions literally mark the start of Progressives in America, and went national with the arrival of factory work. Read TLD's link.

I understand all that, but JHU’s post implies that there is some kind of gotcha here, I assume towards republicans. When in fact, many r’s are pro workers and even unions, more towards those that are centrists like the ‘new nationalism’ of Teddy.

I suppose I just overthought it.

Oh, got it. I understand.

More info pertaining to our conversation: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... _side.html

Gaslighting You know Trump is now loved by all black folks. Just ask him.

Talk to the UAW about the Union stuff.

[SCLaxAttack]

Today (Friday 4/20) the UAW announced that the UAW has won the unionization vote in the Volkswagen plant in Chattanooga. A 4300 worker plant. This is the first time since 1940s that an auto plant in the south has been unionized via a worker vote. The Vance Alabama Mercedes plant is scheduled to vote to join the UAW in mid-May. Volkswagen is just the first. The 4 US Tesla factories are also on the UAW list.

what is the affiliation with progressive ideology?

Is that a serious question?

I think he is saying that the union these workers are now members of tends to be tenacious supporters of progressive democrats. I spent 5 years as a dues paying member of our local Teamsters Local 118 and they couldn't have been more useless when it came to their union members. I wish these new union members the best of luck. Does this mean the average price of a VW is going to decrease?

I suppose….I still don’t follow the ‘progressive’ connection.

Worker's Unions= Progressive.

Using every tool in the tool box to dismantle them, and to force Americans to compete with the global labor market (NAFTA, etc): Conservative

Thanks, but still weird….I’ve never associated blue collar workers unions with progressive ideology.

Labor Unions literally mark the start of Progressives in America, and went national with the arrival of factory work. Read TLD's link.

I understand all that, but JHU’s post implies that there is some kind of gotcha here, I assume towards republicans. When in fact, many r’s are pro workers and even unions, more towards those that are centrists like the ‘new nationalism’ of Teddy.

I suppose I just overthought it.

Oh, got it. I understand.

More info pertaining to our conversation: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... _side.html

Gaslighting You know Trump is now loved by all black folks. Just ask him.

Talk to the UAW about the Union stuff.

First person I met when moving to NC was also from Massachusetts. Was a teamster, worked for a concrete company before retiring at 60. Back then he readily acknowledged that if it weren't for the union wages/benefits and the Big Dig and the overtime it provided, where he delivered the huge percentage of his drops for over ten years, that he wouldn't have been able to retire early and afford the things he has and does.

Went full on Trump. When he wasn't talking Trump he was talking how Biden's lead us to full on socialism. Absolutely refuses to acknowledge if it wasn't for federal dollars paying for all that cement in his truck he wouldn't be where he is now. "That's not socialism, I worked for a construction company", was his response. Or that Trump screwed every contractor, union, and small business he could. He's now impossible to talk to. That's gratitude for ya.

[jhu72]

No surprise there. Grew up in a union family. Brother and father were union members their entire working lives. Even I belonged to a union during the two summers I worked as a sheet metal worker (machinist). I have spent a good bit of my early life around these types. Lot of blue collar guys walking around with a head full of sh*t.

[cradleandshoot]

No surprise there. Grew up in a union family. Brother and father were union members their entire working lives. Even I belonged to a union during the two summers I worked as a sheet metal worker (machinist). I have spent a good bit of my early life around these types. Lot of blue collar guys walking around with a head full of sh*t.

And a belly full of Boilermakers as well. Good to know you use to be a tin knocker. At least you worked one honest job in your life. How many Boilermakers could you down? I know you couldn't sip chardonnay in front of those blue collar guys.

[PizzaSnake]

Today (Friday 4/20) the UAW announced that the UAW has won the unionization vote in the Volkswagen plant in Chattanooga. A 4300 worker plant. This is the first time since 1940s that an auto plant in the south has been unionized via a worker vote. The Vance Alabama Mercedes plant is scheduled to vote to join the UAW in mid-May. Volkswagen is just the first. The 4 US Tesla factories are also on the UAW list.

what is the affiliation with progressive ideology?

Is that a serious question?

I think he is saying that the union these workers are now members of tends to be tenacious supporters of progressive democrats. I spent 5 years as a dues paying member of our local Teamsters Local 118 and they couldn't have been more useless when it came to their union members. I wish these new union members the best of luck. Does this mean the average price of a VW is going to decrease?

I suppose….I still don’t follow the ‘progressive’ connection.

Worker's Unions= Progressive.

Using every tool in the tool box to dismantle them, and to force Americans to compete with the global{ labor market (NAFTA, etc): Conservative

Thanks, but still weird….I’ve never associated blue collar workers unions with progressive ideology.

Labor Unions literally mark the start of Progressives in America, and went national with the arrival of factory work. Read TLD's link.

Rednecks.

[cradleandshoot]

Today (Friday 4/20) the UAW announced that the UAW has won the unionization vote in the Volkswagen plant in Chattanooga. A 4300 worker plant. This is the first time since 1940s that an auto plant in the south has been unionized via a worker vote. The Vance Alabama Mercedes plant is scheduled to vote to join the UAW in mid-May. Volkswagen is just the first. The 4 US Tesla factories are also on the UAW list.

what is the affiliation with progressive ideology?

Is that a serious question?

I think he is saying that the union these workers are now members of tends to be tenacious supporters of progressive democrats. I spent 5 years as a dues paying member of our local Teamsters Local 118 and they couldn't have been more useless when it came to their union members. I wish these new union members the best of luck. Does this mean the average price of a VW is going to decrease?

I suppose….I still don’t follow the ‘progressive’ connection.

Worker's Unions= Progressive.

Using every tool in the tool box to dismantle them, and to force Americans to compete with the global{ labor market (NAFTA, etc): Conservative

Thanks, but still weird….I’ve never associated blue collar workers unions with progressive ideology.

Labor Unions literally mark the start of Progressives in America, and went national with the arrival of factory work. Read TLD's link.

Rednecks.

Liberals... At least rednecks know how to drive a standard. If you try and explain how a clutch works to a liberal all you get is a blank stare.

[PizzaSnake]

Today (Friday 4/20) the UAW announced that the UAW has won the unionization vote in the Volkswagen plant in Chattanooga. A 4300 worker plant. This is the first time since 1940s that an auto plant in the south has been unionized via a worker vote. The Vance Alabama Mercedes plant is scheduled to vote to join the UAW in mid-May. Volkswagen is just the first. The 4 US Tesla factories are also on the UAW list.

what is the affiliation with progressive ideology?

Is that a serious question?

I think he is saying that the union these workers are now members of tends to be tenacious supporters of progressive democrats. I spent 5 years as a dues paying member of our local Teamsters Local 118 and they couldn't have been more useless when it came to their union members. I wish these new union members the best of luck. Does this mean the average price of a VW is going to decrease?

I suppose….I still don’t follow the ‘progressive’ connection.

Worker's Unions= Progressive.

Using every tool in the tool box to dismantle them, and to force Americans to compete with the global{ labor market (NAFTA, etc): Conservative

Thanks, but still weird….I’ve never associated blue collar workers unions with progressive ideology.

Labor Unions literally mark the start of Progressives in America, and went national with the arrival of factory work. Read TLD's link.

Rednecks.

Liberals... At least rednecks know how to drive a standard. If you try and explain how a clutch works to a liberal all you get is a blank stare.

Not the rednecks you are thinking of. Check history of organized labor.

[MDlaxfan76]

Today (Friday 4/20) the UAW announced that the UAW has won the unionization vote in the Volkswagen plant in Chattanooga. A 4300 worker plant. This is the first time since 1940s that an auto plant in the south has been unionized via a worker vote. The Vance Alabama Mercedes plant is scheduled to vote to join the UAW in mid-May. Volkswagen is just the first. The 4 US Tesla factories are also on the UAW list.

what is the affiliation with progressive ideology?

Is that a serious question?

I think he is saying that the union these workers are now members of tends to be tenacious supporters of progressive democrats. I spent 5 years as a dues paying member of our local Teamsters Local 118 and they couldn't have been more useless when it came to their union members. I wish these new union members the best of luck. Does this mean the average price of a VW is going to decrease?

I suppose….I still don’t follow the ‘progressive’ connection.

Worker's Unions= Progressive.

Using every tool in the tool box to dismantle them, and to force Americans to compete with the global labor market (NAFTA, etc): Conservative

Thanks, but still weird….I’ve never associated blue collar workers unions with progressive ideology.

Labor Unions literally mark the start of Progressives in America, and went national with the arrival of factory work. Read TLD's link.

I understand all that, but JHU’s post implies that there is some kind of gotcha here, I assume towards republicans. When in fact, many r’s are pro workers and even unions, more towards those that are centrists like the ‘new nationalism’ of Teddy.

I suppose I just overthought it.

Oh, got it. I understand.

More info pertaining to our conversation: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... _side.html

And this adds a point I've been making here for years: Dems aren't progressives...or "libs".

They're center right. NAFTA? That's not "workers of the world unite".

That's: "F you, we're going to move the value of your labor to the global mean". In other words: get ready for your wages to go down, which is exactly what happened, adjusted for inflation. Clinton did that. And Obama kept it going, and believed in it because, yes, free trade increase GDP for countries. But the part the Friedman's of the world never tell you, because no one bothered to ask them, it's going to move labor value to the global mean. That's a sh(t deal if you're an American making the best wages in the world...which we were in the Unionized Post-WWII era.

So yes, the Dems turned their backs on Labor. And the R's never faced labor in the first place.

And the handful of actual libs like Bernie, who ACTUALLY want to help the working class? He was made fun of by the very working class voters who he tried to help. It's freaking sad, if you ask me.

You said quite a bit, but I do not follow you on the portion above in bold. Are you conflating post cv19 with your historical Clinton/BHO comment? Is your stance, reading between the lines, that once and when the USA labor market is spooled up even more, making tons of widgets etc., that we will have to lower our costs to compete with lower labor wages everyone else? This would be an interesting conversation face to face.

I think you also overlook the value that unions provide in training, benefits, collective bargaining, prevailing wage, safety...and when I speak about unions, to be clear, I am NOT talking about state and federal type unions.

This is an interesting discussion here.

Seems to me that the only way labor costs can be sustainably high here in the US versus 'world mean' is if the value of the goods produced per hour of work is higher, whether because of productivity rate or type of goods produced.

Labor costs are much more than simply hourly wages, as noted, as they include working conditions, safety, flexibility, other benefits, etc. These all in need to produce more value if they are to be sustainable versus world competition. Whether labor unions are involved or not, these dynamics exist, however except for enlightened business owners, labor unions have typically been necessary to force capital and management to not simply suppress labor costs as their means of competitive advantage and to instead find other means to compete. Except that also drove businesses unwilling to find other competitive advantages to move offshore to lowest cost labor.

But high cost labor remains unsustainable without higher value of goods produced.

From a fan's prior descriptions of his own business in which I take it that he affords high labor costs as a fundamental part of his business strategy, that labor produces a differentiated product that is valued for its quality differentiation and they do so in a high productivity environment enabled by deep experience curve effects of a highly trained and experienced workforce and investments in productivity enhancing technology.

Where I disagree with a fan is a negative focus ideologically on NAFTA (albeit specifics matter). My view is that global competition is inevitable for any country seeking itself to compete internationally. A country could erect high barriers to global competitors, but it would then need to rely solely on its internal production and market and not have an expectation of access to global markets. Likewise, such an inward approach would take that country off the stage to influence international cooperation in virtually any other area, including those which impact our own health and security whether we want them to or not. And in a world that grows 'smaller' due to technology, these impacts are inevitable.

[a fan]

Seems to me that the only way labor costs can be sustainably high here in the US versus 'world mean' is if the value of the goods produced per hour of work is higher, whether because of productivity rate or type of goods produced.

Disagree.

Picture what would happen in the US if Congress got off their **ses, and gave US Workers single payer health care, and free Univ or training.

Right now? My company has to compete against every other first world country who's citizens show up at their place of work with their health care and training paid in full (or very close to that). I'm competing unfairly. Think of what that would do to the purchasing power of the average American if they're not longer on the freaking hook for health care, and drugs cost the going EU rate.

For my team? That would mean we could turn our health care expenditures into cash for every employee. And that cost keeps going up every single freaking year, while their coverage and care do NOT improve.

Labor costs are much more than simply hourly wages, as noted, as they include working conditions, safety, flexibility, other benefits, etc. These all in need to produce more value if they are to be sustainable versus world competition. Whether labor unions are involved or not, these dynamics exist, however except for enlightened business owners, labor unions have typically been necessary to force capital and management to not simply suppress labor costs as their means of competitive advantage and to instead find other means to compete. Except that also drove businesses unwilling to find other competitive advantages to move offshore to lowest cost labor.

And yet somehow, every other 1st world nation has effective unions protecting the bulk of their workforce, with the .gov providing health care and vocational training.

Do these countries have magic beans? Or do they simply spend their tax dollars more wisely, and at a benefit to the working class?

But high cost labor remains unsustainable without higher value of goods produced.

It's all relative. If every other country competing has "high cost labor"....that's now not a factor in consumer choice, no?

From a fan's prior descriptions of his own business in which I take it that he affords high labor costs as a fundamental part of his business strategy, that labor produces a differentiated product that is valued for its quality differentiation and they do so in a high productivity environment enabled by deep experience curve effects of a highly trained and experienced workforce and investments in productivity enhancing technology.

We're pretty low tech. We just spend an inordinately large amount of time planning our work space. Ever see the movie "the Founder", about the start of McDonald's? Picture the scene where they're on a tennis court working out the layout of McDonald's. That's what we've done at our plant. So you need about half the staff folks use at a similarly sized distillery. Had nothing to do with technology, and everything to do with design.

Where I disagree with a fan is a negative focus ideologically on NAFTA (albeit specifics matter). My view is that global competition is inevitable for any country seeking itself to compete internationally. A country could erect high barriers to global competitors, but it would then need to rely solely on its internal production and market and not have an expectation of access to global markets. Likewise, such an inward approach would take that country off the stage to influence international cooperation in virtually any other area, including those which impact our own health and security whether we want them to or not. And in a world that grows 'smaller' due to technology, these impacts are inevitable.

I'm not negative against NAFTA in and of itself. I'm simply pointing out that NAFTA is CLEARLY anti-US Labor.

And pointing out that free markets move labor to the mean value. This is the part no one wants to discuss, and no one wants to address in America.

[MDlaxfan76]

Seems to me that the only way labor costs can be sustainably high here in the US versus 'world mean' is if the value of the goods produced per hour of work is higher, whether because of productivity rate or type of goods produced.

Disagree.

Picture what would happen in the US if Congress got off their **ses, and gave US Workers single payer health care, and free Univ or training.

Right now? My company has to compete against every other first world country who's citizens show up at their place of work with their health care and training paid in full (or very close to that). I'm competing unfairly. Think of what that would do to the purchasing power of the average American if they're not longer on the freaking hook for health care, and drugs cost the going EU rate.

For my team? That would mean we could turn our health care expenditures into cash for every employee. And that cost keeps going up every single freaking year, while their coverage and care do NOT improve.

Labor costs are much more than simply hourly wages, as noted, as they include working conditions, safety, flexibility, other benefits, etc. These all in need to produce more value if they are to be sustainable versus world competition. Whether labor unions are involved or not, these dynamics exist, however except for enlightened business owners, labor unions have typically been necessary to force capital and management to not simply suppress labor costs as their means of competitive advantage and to instead find other means to compete. Except that also drove businesses unwilling to find other competitive advantages to move offshore to lowest cost labor.

And yet somehow, every other 1st world nation has effective unions protecting the bulk of their workforce, with the .gov providing health care and vocational training.

Do these countries have magic beans? Or do they simply spend their tax dollars more wisely, and at a benefit to the working class?

But high cost labor remains unsustainable without higher value of goods produced.

It's all relative. If every other country competing has "high cost labor"....that's now not a factor in consumer choice, no?

From a fan's prior descriptions of his own business in which I take it that he affords high labor costs as a fundamental part of his business strategy, that labor produces a differentiated product that is valued for its quality differentiation and they do so in a high productivity environment enabled by deep experience curve effects of a highly trained and experienced workforce and investments in productivity enhancing technology.

We're pretty low tech. We just spend an inordinately large amount of time planning our work space. Ever see the movie "the Founder", about the start of McDonald's? Picture the scene where they're on a tennis court working out the layout of McDonald's. That's what we've done at our plant. So you need about half the staff folks use at a similarly sized distillery. Had nothing to do with technology, and everything to do with design.

Where I disagree with a fan is a negative focus ideologically on NAFTA (albeit specifics matter). My view is that global competition is inevitable for any country seeking itself to compete internationally. A country could erect high barriers to global competitors, but it would then need to rely solely on its internal production and market and not have an expectation of access to global markets. Likewise, such an inward approach would take that country off the stage to influence international cooperation in virtually any other area, including those which impact our own health and security whether we want them to or not. And in a world that grows 'smaller' due to technology, these impacts are inevitable.

I'm not negative against NAFTA in and of itself. I'm simply pointing out that NAFTA is CLEARLY anti-US Labor.

And pointing out that free markets move labor to the mean value. This is the part no one wants to discuss, and no one wants to address in America.

I feel like much of your argument isn't with me as I'm not arguing against unions, nor employers obviating need for a union by smart management and strategy that values workforce. Whether the cost of labor eg benefits are paid for by company or country, the cost is nevertheless a country to country competitive dynamic. That said, I do understand your point versus other high labor cost countries.

The issue is not that competition, it's with the undifferentiated product competition with low labor, including benefits, countries. That's where the "mean" impacts with global sourcing.

My only issue with your discussion of the dynamic is the notion that there's a real option to not have global trade, as if not having free trade agreements with friendly neighbors would somehow remove labor cost pressures.

I don't see this as NAFTA matter, but rather just the reality that the world is a much smaller place than decades ago, and we benefit hugely from international trade...where you and I would strongly agree though is that both parties have failed to understand those implications and haven't adjusted social policy in ways that make core standard of living more resilient for those most impacted negatively by wage cost pressure.

Big important point.

I didn't mean to suggest that you're using AI or anything, rather that I bet you are using technology where it makes sense and that experience curve effects are super important to optimizing workflow, machinery, etc to accomplish the job with high relative productivity in achieving a differentiated product. The business has paid attention to the value of optimizing and that includes an experienced, engaged workforce. That's my general takeaway from your other discussions of your business. Good management...

[a fan]

I feel like much of your argument isn't with me as I'm not arguing against unions, nor employers obviating need for a union by smart management and strategy that values workforce. Whether the cost of labor eg benefits are paid for by company or country, the cost is nevertheless a country to country competitive dynamic. That said, I do understand your point versus other high labor cost countries.

You own a business. Perhaps you don't compete with global companies, but I do. If health care and education was covered by the .gov? I could easily pay my crew another 10%-20% annually, depending on the employees. That's a pretty big deal. Or, if I'm Montgomery Burns, I could funnel that cash savings into marketing or anything else I choose. I'm really fighting an unfair fight against British and EU distillers. And my workers are also fighting an unfair competition with EU and British workers.

It's inevitable that future generations are going to figure this out, and fix this obvious problem. It's only a matter of time.

The issue is not that competition, it's with the undifferentiated product competition with low labor, including benefits, countries. That's where the "mean" impacts with global sourcing.

Don't agree, but this is splitting hairs at this point, so we're close enough to not comment.

My only issue with your discussion of the dynamic is the notion that there's a real option to not have global trade, as if not having free trade agreements with friendly neighbors would somehow remove labor cost pressures.

Not what I'm saying....see below.

I don't see this as NAFTA matter, but rather just the reality that the world is a much smaller place than decades ago, and we benefit hugely from international trade...where you and I would strongly agree though is that both parties have failed to understand those implications and haven't adjusted social policy in ways that make core standard of living more resilient for those most impacted negatively by wage cost pressure.

This. I agree 100%. I'm not against NAFTA. I'm against NAFTA (and other US trade policies) because we didn't adjust the bennies we gave our workers. You're spot on here.

You can see this INSTANTLY in the growth between rich and working class in America. This is a DIRECT result of trade policy, coupled with gutting Unions, and not giving workers health care and training and other .gov assistance.

EU has a VAT in addition to import fees and taxes. We don't. We're letting foreign companies sell us stuff without adequate taxation. Again: poor trade policy f'ing the workers.

I didn't mean to suggest that you're using AI or anything, rather that I bet you are using technology where it makes sense and that experience curve effects are super important to optimizing workflow, machinery, etc to accomplish the job with high relative productivity in achieving a differentiated product. The business has paid attention to the value of optimizing and that includes an experienced, engaged workforce. That's my general takeaway from your other discussions of your business. Good management...

We're lucky. We have a guy who could easily run a global drinks company like Diageo with his CV, yet he's stuck with his dumb younger brother running a small shop....and me, who has far more industry specific education, training, and experience than all but a literal handful of my peers in the US.

Oh, and we're toying with Ai. At this point, it's for fun, but I could easily see Ai doing one of my least favorite exercises: coming up with label copy and sell sheet copy for my spirits. I hate doing it, and would be thrilled to hand it off to a Chat or whatever Ai. I could also see the design of new labels being handled by Ai. And I'm 1000% sure it's Ai will infiltrate sales and marketing, because it's already happening.

Exciting and scary times. Trying to enjoy the ride......

[cradleandshoot]

I feel like much of your argument isn't with me as I'm not arguing against unions, nor employers obviating need for a union by smart management and strategy that values workforce. Whether the cost of labor eg benefits are paid for by company or country, the cost is nevertheless a country to country competitive dynamic. That said, I do understand your point versus other high labor cost countries.

You own a business. Perhaps you don't compete with global companies, but I do. If health care and education was covered by the .gov? I could easily pay my crew another 10%-20% annually, depending on the employees. That's a pretty big deal. Or, if I'm Montgomery Burns, I could funnel that cash savings into marketing or anything else I choose. I'm really fighting an unfair fight against British and EU distillers. And my workers are also fighting an unfair competition with EU and British workers.

It's inevitable that future generations are going to figure this out, and fix this obvious problem. It's only a matter of time.

The issue is not that competition, it's with the undifferentiated product competition with low labor, including benefits, countries. That's where the "mean" impacts with global sourcing.

Don't agree, but this is splitting hairs at this point, so we're close enough to not comment.

My only issue with your discussion of the dynamic is the notion that there's a real option to not have global trade, as if not having free trade agreements with friendly neighbors would somehow remove labor cost pressures.

Not what I'm saying....see below.

I don't see this as NAFTA matter, but rather just the reality that the world is a much smaller place than decades ago, and we benefit hugely from international trade...where you and I would strongly agree though is that both parties have failed to understand those implications and haven't adjusted social policy in ways that make core standard of living more resilient for those most impacted negatively by wage cost pressure.

This. I agree 100%. I'm not against NAFTA. I'm against NAFTA (and other US trade policies) because we didn't adjust the bennies we gave our workers. You're spot on here.

You can see this INSTANTLY in the growth between rich and working class in America. This is a DIRECT result of trade policy, coupled with gutting Unions, and not giving workers health care and training and other .gov assistance.

EU has a VAT in addition to import fees and taxes. We don't. We're letting foreign companies sell us stuff without adequate taxation. Again: poor trade policy f'ing the workers.

I didn't mean to suggest that you're using AI or anything, rather that I bet you are using technology where it makes sense and that experience curve effects are super important to optimizing workflow, machinery, etc to accomplish the job with high relative productivity in achieving a differentiated product. The business has paid attention to the value of optimizing and that includes an experienced, engaged workforce. That's my general takeaway from your other discussions of your business. Good management...

We're lucky. We have a guy who could easily run a global drinks company like Diageo with his CV, yet he's stuck with his dumb younger brother running a small shop....and me, who has far more industry specific education, training, and experience than all but a literal handful of my peers in the US.

Oh, and we're toying with Ai. At this point, it's for fun, but I could easily see Ai doing one of my least favorite exercises: coming up with label copy and sell sheet copy for my spirits. I hate doing it, and would be thrilled to hand it off to a Chat or whatever Ai. I could also see the design of new labels being handled by Ai. And I'm 1000% sure it's Ai will infiltrate sales and marketing, because it's already happening.

Exciting and scary times. Trying to enjoy the ride......

I hope you really trust your brother. The stuff that people can do with AI today is scary. You wouldn't have a problem with AI of you watching over your distillery dressed in a tutu?
Please tell me you don't normally monitor your vats dressed in a tutu.

[PizzaSnake]

I feel like much of your argument isn't with me as I'm not arguing against unions, nor employers obviating need for a union by smart management and strategy that values workforce. Whether the cost of labor eg benefits are paid for by company or country, the cost is nevertheless a country to country competitive dynamic. That said, I do understand your point versus other high labor cost countries.

You own a business. Perhaps you don't compete with global companies, but I do. If health care and education was covered by the .gov? I could easily pay my crew another 10%-20% annually, depending on the employees. That's a pretty big deal. Or, if I'm Montgomery Burns, I could funnel that cash savings into marketing or anything else I choose. I'm really fighting an unfair fight against British and EU distillers. And my workers are also fighting an unfair competition with EU and British workers.

It's inevitable that future generations are going to figure this out, and fix this obvious problem. It's only a matter of time.

The issue is not that competition, it's with the undifferentiated product competition with low labor, including benefits, countries. That's where the "mean" impacts with global sourcing.

Don't agree, but this is splitting hairs at this point, so we're close enough to not comment.

My only issue with your discussion of the dynamic is the notion that there's a real option to not have global trade, as if not having free trade agreements with friendly neighbors would somehow remove labor cost pressures.

Not what I'm saying....see below.

I don't see this as NAFTA matter, but rather just the reality that the world is a much smaller place than decades ago, and we benefit hugely from international trade...where you and I would strongly agree though is that both parties have failed to understand those implications and haven't adjusted social policy in ways that make core standard of living more resilient for those most impacted negatively by wage cost pressure.

This. I agree 100%. I'm not against NAFTA. I'm against NAFTA (and other US trade policies) because we didn't adjust the bennies we gave our workers. You're spot on here.

You can see this INSTANTLY in the growth between rich and working class in America. This is a DIRECT result of trade policy, coupled with gutting Unions, and not giving workers health care and training and other .gov assistance.

EU has a VAT in addition to import fees and taxes. We don't. We're letting foreign companies sell us stuff without adequate taxation. Again: poor trade policy f'ing the workers.

I didn't mean to suggest that you're using AI or anything, rather that I bet you are using technology where it makes sense and that experience curve effects are super important to optimizing workflow, machinery, etc to accomplish the job with high relative productivity in achieving a differentiated product. The business has paid attention to the value of optimizing and that includes an experienced, engaged workforce. That's my general takeaway from your other discussions of your business. Good management...

We're lucky. We have a guy who could easily run a global drinks company like Diageo with his CV, yet he's stuck with his dumb younger brother running a small shop....and me, who has far more industry specific education, training, and experience than all but a literal handful of my peers in the US.

Oh, and we're toying with Ai. At this point, it's for fun, but I could easily see Ai doing one of my least favorite exercises: coming up with label copy and sell sheet copy for my spirits. I hate doing it, and would be thrilled to hand it off to a Chat or whatever Ai. I could also see the design of new labels being handled by Ai. And I'm 1000% sure it's Ai will infiltrate sales and marketing, because it's already happening.

Exciting and scary times. Trying to enjoy the ride......

I hope you really trust your brother. The stuff that people can do with AI today is scary. You wouldn't have a problem with AI of you watching over your distillery dressed in a tutu?
Please tell me you don't normally monitor your vats dressed in a tutu.

Your greatest fear is bring shown as a cross-dresser? Telling.

[cradleandshoot]

A brand new look at FLP liberals. In the spirit of the violent protests on FLP liberal elite universities. They are determined to divest themselves from what is known as "common sense"