American Educational System

[cradleandshoot]

If we have any Bloomberg subscribers in the forum, it would be interesting if you could cut & paste this article, or at least a list of schools & ROI.

Do they include a ROI for the service academies ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024 ... ify%20wall

Just listened to a Conan podcast where he interviewed Carol Burnett.

She attended UCLA as a freshman in 1951. Know how much tuition was because the .gov paid portion was so huge?

$43. That's $528.75 in today's dollars.

Wanna guess what tuition is at UCLA today? Ya think it's $528.75? $13,401 in State, $43,000 out of State.

.....that's what Big Government did for Boomers, vs. how bad we're screwing Gen Z in 2024.

The Boomer Mantra SHOULD be: Government should give all the generations that followed us the same deal we got. And that's the MINIMUM following generations should get.

I know that a lot of GIs coming back from WW2 were afforded the opportunity to go to college. I guess that was either socialism or paying a debt to these men and women who selflessly gave so much to all of us boomers that followed. It is true though that there is no free lunch.

Well, as I have said MANY times: that's the way to do it: free vocational training or college in exchange for X years of Government/Community service. Then everyone's happy, and America is a far, far, far better place for it.

It worked for the GI bill. Have no doubt it would work here in 2024.

My dad had a number of his WW2 buddies that went back to college and led very successful lives. These were all folks who were strongly motivated to succeed in life. Vocational training is so often overlooked in the scheme of things. My neighbors stepson was a lousy student but he is the Michaelangelo of welders. He learned how to weld taking those vocational classes instead of traditional classes. He owns a couple of trucks in SC and has a couple people working for him. There is really good money in being able to do on job site welding repairs quickly and correctly. The only thing that aggravates him is having to do those quarterly tax filings.

My Production manager's son knew he wanted to go into construction way back in the 8th grade. He got out of HS, and got a great job, and is well on his way to six figures, without one penny of student loans. Smart kid.

My grandfather was the first of his family to go to college, and he did it on the GIBill. Pretty neat that his work is STILL paying dividends three generations later.

My dad was already a skilled tool and die maker when he went into the army in 1943. He went back to the same shop when he left the army and worked at the same job until he retired in 1985. That doesn't happen very much anymore but it was a trademark of many WW2 vets.

Well, if it's not obvious as hell, I'm proud to be a tradesman like your father was. One of the big ones that was lost? Coopers.....barrel makers. Picture how hard it is to make a barrel that holds EXACTLY 53 gallons, that is water tight, and is made up of wooden staves, each of which is a different size. Crazy skill, and a mix of brute strength and a soft touch are needed.

That art is all but gone nowadays.

Interesting you bring barrel making up. Recently on PBS Rick Steves visited a distillery in Scotland and he showed the craftsman making the whiskey barrels. It was fascinating to see how good they worked and how fast they could assemble a barrel. One thing about you folks who distill spirits, you have a bit of mad scientist in you as well.

[OCanada]

Love how he claims that paid employees of government are actually paying for their education through obligated government service...apparently it's not the taxpayers. Do officers who went to a government paid military academy get paid less than those of equal rank who enlisted and were promoted without that military "vo-tech school"? If so, that's news to me but might support his argument...if so, how much less and for how long is it lower?

My brother-in-law in my basement left Annapolis before his first year ended but is still eligible for numerous veterans benefits 45 years later...blows my mind that he thinks of himself as a "veteran", but these benefits are pretty sweet...like VA loans. Lower rates and no deposit. Apparently showing up for even a day qualifies, as long as not dishonorably discharged.

All service members, regardless of branch, sign on for a total 8yr commitment. That commitment can be broken up between Active and Reserve time. Officers incur a service obligation for accepting a commission, on top of any additional/concurrent incurred commitments for school financial aid or academy attendance. This can be anywhere from 3–6 years active duty obligated service.

If you enlist in the Navy, you incur a 4 yr active duty obligation.
If you accept a commission, the active duty "payback" period depends on how much the service has invested in training you.
If you come in with a degree & go to OCS, your active duty payback is 3 years. Longer w/ follow-on specialized training.
The remaining reserve commitment may be in an inactive reserve status, subject to recall.

If you get a VA home loan, you still have to make the payments.
You can sometimes get a better deal with a conventional loan -- I did so with 2 assumptions.

So, I think that "answers" my question.
Military academy graduates get the same pay according to rank as does anyone else at same rank. Not less.
They have a running start on rank given the 4 years of service factoring into rank, but the key point is that they don't get less.

My son's good friend, college lacrosse player from UNC, no ROTC, but OCS post college gets paid the same per rank as if coming out of Annapolis or West Point or Air Force or whatever. But he paid for his college education, not the taxpayer. SEAL officer...'somewhere in Africa'.

Sure, you can 'assume' someone else's lower interest rate from a prior period when rates were lower, but apples to apples, the VA loan is a sweet deal. Lower interest and full cost of $500k home would never have been what my currently unemployed brother-in-law would have received in private market otherwise than enhanced by VA.

BTW, I don't have any issues with all that other than the notion that benefits accrue as soon as you go one day to Academy...that's nonsensical IMO. But I want the military choice to be attractive, we need good people serving.

Bottomline, you continue to avoid a fan's simple definition question.

They can also retire after 20 years either voluntarily or not and plug right into what was once labeled the Military Industrial Complex And get a big boost in pay.

[MDlaxfan76]

If we have any Bloomberg subscribers in the forum, it would be interesting if you could cut & paste this article, or at least a list of schools & ROI.

Do they include a ROI for the service academies ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024 ... ify%20wall

The article basically argues that unless an Ivy or a small set of the very top other schools (eg MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech etc) the best ROI is found in technical degrees from major flagship publics. Better than the privates considered 'little Ivies' with a few exceptions.

Average Ivy ROI after 10 years: $265.5K
Public Flagship: $148k
Elite Private: $135K
Public: $118k
Private: $82K

There's a scatter graph which allows you to see schools, but I didn't see a way to search for a specific school other than hunt...and I didn't happen to see any service academies, though obviously that's an extremely high ROI given guaranteed zero cost!

The other comment I'd make is that if you're lucky enough to get full or close to full aid at an Ivy or close to Ivy it crushes anything else. And a flagship public is pretty super too. There's much more need based aid at Ivies and the like, but academic scholarships can be earned at the flagship publics and that could be a lot better than paying half or full boat at many small privates.

Very few colleges have a negative ROI though a few do, mostly in the arts.

I think the basic lesson is that technical degrees from decently strong technical programs (but not highly selective overall) have a pretty high base level earnings whereas with non-technical you're much better off at a major brand than lesser but selective private paying much the same top dollar. But at the very top, the best ROI is with the most selective schools, over good technical, regardless of whether primarily liberal arts. But the very most selective technical schools also have the very highest ROI.

Just don't go to less selective and do non technical...

Wealth | Big Take
If You Didn’t Get Into Dartmouth, a Public School Is the Better Investment
Many elite private colleges underperform when it comes to the average student’s return, an analysis shows.

By
Paulina Cachero
Francesca Maglione
Cedric Sam
Denise Lu
April 10, 2024

Gift this article
Almost everyone wants to go to an Ivy League school. But if you don’t get in — and most don’t — your next best option isn’t necessarily the most prestigious college that accepted you.

A Bloomberg News analysis of more than 1,500 nonprofit four-year colleges shows the return on investment at many elite private institutions outside the eight Ivies is no better than far-less selective public universities.

In fact, the typical 10-year return on investment of the so-called “Hidden Ivies” — a list of 63 top private colleges — is about 49% less than the official Ivies and 9% less than states’ most prominent universities, known as public flagships.

That’s according to ROI calculations provided by Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce, which relied on publicly available tuition and earnings data of graduates who accepted federal financial aid, meaning the analysis doesn’t include information on those who paid out of pocket.

Public Institutions Outperform Many Elite Private Colleges
The ROI at
University of Georgia

is $170,000 after 10 years. The annual cost of attendance is $27,329.

Public Public flagship Private Elite private Ivy

10
20
30
40
50
60
70
$
80
K
Annual cost of attendance
–200
–100
0
100
200
300
$
400
K
Return on investment
Median: $98,000
Lower tuition and cost of living
Higher tuition and cost of living
University of Georgia
Source: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce. Note: Cost of attendance includes the advertised price for tuition, fees, books, supplies, and the average living costs at the school. Elite private schools are from the list provided in Howard and Matthew Greene’s book The Hidden Ivies.
Historically, families have been willing to pay more for prestigious private colleges that promise to open doors to world-renowned programs, esteemed faculty and robust alumni networks. But as the cost of attendance approaches $90,000 a year at many of these elite colleges and the student debt crisis stretches past $1.6 trillion, students are finding the more expensive route isn’t always a safe bet.

For example, elite private institutions like Vassar College and Oberlin College respectively return 18% and a whopping 85% less than the median ROI of all public schools analyzed.

Public Flagships May Be a Better Bet Than Elite Private Colleges
Median ROI 10 years after enrollment
Ivy
Public flagship
Elite private
Public
Private
0
50.0K
100.0K
150.0K
200.0K
250.0K
$265.5K
148.0K
135.0K
118.0K
82.0K

Source: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce
When it comes to how much money is in a graduate’s bank account a few years out — a time when many are looking for financial freedom from parents and the ability to build wealth by saving for a house or retirement — those who pay less for school tend to hold an advantage.


Take Charles Zigliara, a now 23-year-old credit analyst at Blackstone Inc., who said he weighed three options when he was a high school senior in Atlanta applying to colleges.

The University of Georgia, a public flagship where he got scholarships to cover tuition in full.
Tulane University, a Hidden Ivy in Louisiana that offered to cover half his tuition.
Wake Forest University, another selective college in North Carolina, where he didn’t get a scholarship.
If money were no object, Zigliara said he would have chosen Wake Forest at the time. He was reluctant to give up a prestigious name. But in hindsight, he’s glad he chose the University of Georgia. He enjoyed his experience and feels like he got the same outcome he would have had he attended a “brand-name” institution. Not only did he graduate debt free, but he also got a job at Ernst & Young LLP right after graduation.

“I knew that I was going to be working hard enough and having high enough aspirations to where that brand name was not going to make or break me,” he said.

A portrait of a young man in a blue suit
Charles Zigliara, a credit analyst for Blackstone, in Miami, Florida. Photographer: Alfonso Duran/Bloomberg
Turns out, it was the right choice from an ROI perspective too — and it would have been even without a full tuition scholarship.

The average ROI before taxes at the University of Georgia is $170,000 10 years from enrollment, according to Georgetown’s CEW data. That’s 31% higher than Wake Forest’s return of $130,000 and more than five times that of Tulane’s $31,000.

University of Georgia

Tulane University of Louisiana

PUBLIC FLAGSHIP, GEORGIA
48% ACCEPTANCE
ELITE PRIVATE, LOUISIANA
11% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$170,000
$31,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$59,769
$56,999
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$14,257
$39,749
A spokesperson for Tulane said CEW’s calculation was an unfair point of comparison, noting the figure is a reflection of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina when incoming student enrollment dropped and a third of its student population was part-time adult learners at its School of Continuing Studies. A representative for Wake Forest also noted CEW’s figure was only relevant to students who accept federal aid. The majority of its students pay out of pocket, meaning they don’t rely on federal loans, grants or work-study arrangements.

Prestige Doesn’t Always Pay
Higher education has long been the golden ticket to social mobility in the US.

College graduates are more likely to secure higher paying jobs, granting them stability and a better quality of life. The reward is believed to be even sweeter for those admitted to a top school. But with a changing job market and soaring tuition costs, more people are questioning whether it’s worth as much as six figures to attend an elite institution.


Some parents have adopted an “Ivy-or-bust” mentality, placing prestige above all when thinking about college. And while the higher return on investment is notable for the Ivies — families might want to think again before handing over hundreds of thousands of dollars for the next best school.

CEW’s calculations — which examine the net present value of the typical graduate’s earnings minus the average price paid after aid packages — shows a degree from an elite private college 10 years from enrollment is worth about $135,000 compared to $265,500 at an Ivy, according to the analysis.

It’s a striking gap, especially when these universities are considered to be “the best” and “next best” schools.

More than 140 public institutions accepting the majority of applicants are able to return more than $135,000 for the typical student after 10 years. And public flagship institutions, which can be more selective, tend to do even better with a typical 10-year ROI of $148,000.

Public flagship
Median ROI: $148,000

0
$
400
K
ROI
148K
0
$
400
K
ROI
Lower
Cost of attendance
Higher
Elite private
Median ROI: $135,000

0
$
400
K
ROI
135K
0
$
400
K
ROI
Ivy
Median ROI: $265,500

0
$
400
K
ROI
266K
0
$
400
K
ROI
“If you get into an Ivy, the ROI is going to be great. But if you’re part of the 99% of students who don’t get in, regional and state flagship schools can punch above their weight and allow a strong return on investment,” said Michael Itzkowitz, founder of HEA Group and the former director of College Scorecard, the publisher of the student outcomes dataset Georgetown’s CEW used.

To be sure, the assumptions baked into CEW’s calculations provide a somewhat limited outlook on the value of a college degree. For instance, working a $10-an-hour job full time for 10 years would produce a comparable ROI of $191,000 before taxes. CEW assumes the typical student is incurring costs and not working for the first five years after enrollment, as that’s the average time it takes to graduate. So 10 years out, a school’s ROI can look significantly worse than after, say, 40 years when the cost of tuition is dwarfed by a lifetime of elevated earnings. The same logic holds when comparing expensive colleges against cheaper ones. Further out, the return can look better for a more expensive school, if it’s able to get students higher paying jobs.

A typical graduate from
University of Georgia

earns $59,769 10 years after enrollment. That’s 77% more than the typical high school graduate.

But that’s not always a guarantee. Nearly half of all college graduates find themselves working jobs that don’t require a degree a decade out of college, according to a report by the Burning Glass Institute and the Strada Education Foundation. That can be crippling for students who took on debt and were banking on higher earnings to pay off their loans. For many, the ROI of their degree could be even lower than CEW estimates as its calculations didn’t include the cost to service student loan debt and a lot of graduates are paying interest rates north of 7%.

Related: The Big Take Podcast

Listen and subscribe to The Big Take on
iHeart
Apple
Spotify
The Terminal
Caitlin McCarty transferred to New York University from Manhattan College, thinking she’d find better connections and employment opportunities at a brand-name school — even if it meant an additional $25,000 in debt by the time she graduated in 2019.

“I thought everyone knows NYU. It’s going to help me get such a great job,” she said. “And then I started applying and I was like, ‘it’s not helping.’”


Eventually she found her first full-time job as an executive assistant at a small company. But currently unemployed, she says she’s never used any of the skills she learned in college and regrets the extra money she paid for NYU.

“At the end of the day, I just don’t think it was worth it,” she said.

Compared to NYU, the average Manhattan College graduate not only pays less for a degree but commands a 9% higher salary. Manhattan College has struggled financially lately, announcing cuts to staff and programs this year. But its ROI is meaningfully higher at $180,000 10 years after enrollment, compared to NYU’s $107,000, according to CEW data.

New York University

Manhattan College

PRIVATE, NEW YORK
21% ACCEPTANCE
PRIVATE, NEW YORK
78% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$107,000
$180,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$76,040
$83,117
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$38,569
$30,215
Major Makes the Difference
When Georgetown’s CEW began to publish ROI calculations in 2019, it acknowledged the awkwardness in discussing a degree’s return on investment in the same terms as a tangible financial asset. It depends on the degree and what a graduate does with it.

Technical majors such as computer science, engineering or mathematics can serve as a direct pathway to a good job early in one’s career, translating to higher earnings right out of college. That’s why schools with more STEM majors tend to outperform other top universities when it comes to ROI figures.

Colleges With More STEM Graduates Have Higher Returns
The 10-year ROI at
University of Georgia

is $170,000 with roughly 28% of students graduating with STEM majors.

Public Public flagship Private Elite private Ivy

0
20
40
60
80
100
%
Share of students in STEM majors
–200
–100
0
100
200
300
$
400
K
Return on investment
University of Georgia
Sources: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce and IPEDS. Note: Data are not available for all schools, and schools with no STEM majors in the data are excluded.
The top four colleges with the highest ROIs, for instance, comprise a list of highly specialized schools: the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the University of Health Sciences and Pharmacy in St. Louis, the California Institute of Technology, and the Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences.

“The ROI of a degree is associated much more with major than school,” said Martin Van Der Werf, director of editorial and education policy at CEW. “A brand name can be important. But it’s important for people to decouple the school from what they want to do. They should focus on what they want to do and narrow it down from there.”

The reality is, however, many students are unsure about what they want to study in their late teens, so when picking out colleges, applicants tend to focus on reputation, rather than career outcomes.

University of Georgia

, a flagship public school, returns 36% less than the typical Ivy League institution and 26% more than elite private colleges.

For Celeste Watkins, the decision came down to a combination of prestige and financial aid. After applying to more than 25 universities, she ended up going to Franklin & Marshall College, a Hidden Ivy in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

There, she pursued a major in biology with a minor in Chinese area studies and remembers having a “dearth of information” regarding potential careers. After graduating in December 2016, she worked in customer support and retail positions before landing a job as an administrative assistant at a Chinese railcar manufacturer. But feeling her career options were limited — even after attending a premier school — she decided to pursue a master’s degree in business administration at Yale University, taking on more than $100,000 in debt to do so.

“It’s the information asymmetry that I think is driving a lot of the question of, is college worth it or not,” she said. “You simply don’t have enough of the right information to know, here is reasonably what I can expect to be doing with my life after school.”

A portrait of a young woman wearing a long cardigan and shirt with a Yale Y logo, leaning against a wall
Celeste Watkins on campus at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut. Photographer: Joe Buglewicz/Bloomberg
The curriculum at liberal arts colleges typically focuses on the humanities, arts, social sciences and natural sciences. Graduates develop in-demand soft skills such as critical thinking — which may garner renewed interest with the rise of artificial intelligence — but non-technical majors often lead to jobs with lower wages.

According to a separate 2019 CEW report, the ROI of a liberal arts education 10 years after enrollment is around $62,000, or about 40% below the median ROI of all 4,500 two- and four-year colleges CEW analyzed, which was $107,000.


Elite liberal arts colleges tend to do better. The average graduate of Franklin & Marshall has a 10-year ROI of $123,000, which the college said should increase as time goes on. Still, graduates of top schools can find the career opportunities lacking, pushing some into graduate school, which can require more debt and delay earnings even further out.

Take a school like Oberlin College. It says its graduates have earned more research doctorates than graduates of any other four-year college. But Oberlin also has the lowest ROI of the Hidden Ivies analyzed, coming in at $18,000 10 years from enrollment.

Franklin and Marshall College

Oberlin College

ELITE PRIVATE, PENNSYLVANIA
37% ACCEPTANCE
ELITE PRIVATE, OHIO
35% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$123,000
$18,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$72,227
$47,921
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$30,911
$34,777
A factor driving this is that students pay a hefty net price of $34,777 a year, compared to a median of $29,000 for all Hidden Ivies. Plus, Oberlin’s most popular major is music performance, followed by psychology. These tend to be lower-paying degrees and could explain why the median salary of Oberlin graduates 10 years from enrollment is $48,000, compared to almost $73,000 for other Hidden Ivies.

It’s a similar story at Vassar, which returns about $98,000 10 years after enrollment.

The majority of its students are enrolled in non-STEM fields, such as psychology, English and political science, pushing down the median salary of graduates. According to Vassar President Elizabeth Bradley, a considerable number of students also pursue graduate education or “competitive fellowships” right after college.

“For a substantial group of our graduates it may take longer to see earnings rise, but our data points out that it does rise,” she said.

Up for Debate
Asked about the findings, some of the schools contacted argued the return on investment of a college degree can’t be expressed as a dollar figure – alluding to intangible benefits such as student experience and a school’s academic rigor.

“It is impossible to distill the excellence of any given college into one ranking, particularly one that only looks at success in terms of dollars and cents,” said Andrea Simakis, an Oberlin spokesperson, who noted the school’s graduates are well-represented among Grammy winners and MacArthur genius fellows. “Not only does this study not capture the lifetime ROI of these individuals, it does not begin to capture the ROI to the world.”

Future earnings are just one part of an ROI, added Alan Caniglia, Franklin & Marshall’s vice president for institutional research and chief strategy officer. “The ability to do work you value, the quality of life beyond the career, and your contributions as a citizen and community member” are also important, he said. Additionally, the school provides “substantial programs to help students prepare and plan for their professional careers.”


Other schools also noted CEW’s calculations don’t take into account the location of schools and migration of students after graduation in the context of earnings. Universities in close proximity to high-paying cities like New York, for instance, are more likely to produce a higher median salary for graduates than those located in the midwest or south.

Furthermore, academics contacted by Bloomberg said that while they agree students must consider costs when picking out an institution, attending college will always be worth it.

“Whatever that right fit school is for you, that’s where you should be, independent of financial ability or ability to pay,” said Phillip Levine, an economics professor at Wellesley College. “If you have that student who should be going to a very top institution, but ends up at the community college because they think that that’s what they can afford, that’s a mistake.”

Wealth Deferred
Still, as graduates take on more debt and pay down balances for longer, many aren’t able to see the same wealth-building advantages typically associated with higher education.

A Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis report from 2019 found that while college graduates still enjoy higher salaries, the wealth premium had declined for more recent graduates, thanks in part to the rising cost of college.

Federal Student Loan Debt Has More Than Doubled Since 2010
0
0.5
1.0
$ 1.5 T
2010
'11
'12
'13
'14
'15
'16
'17
'18
'19
'20
'21
'22
2023

Source: US Education Department
“If you’re busy paying down student loan debt as opposed to putting money in a 401(k) or down towards a house, that has larger macro economic consequences,” said Ana Hernández Kent, a senior researcher at the St. Louis Fed. “Even if it’s just a few years, it’s taking graduates longer to get there. They don’t have as much time to allow those assets to appreciate.”


That seems to be the case for Ryan McMullin, a 27 year old in Washington DC, who now works at a top consulting firm.

McMullin attended the renowned Elliott School of International Affairs at George Washington University, studied for a year at the Paris Institute of Political Studies and worked as a paralegal for a law firm.

But even with his success, he wonders if he made the right choices — starting with the decision to take on $145,000 in student debt. While he earns more than the average American, he says the burden of his debt outweighs the higher paycheck he earns.

He thinks of his former high school classmates in Pennsylvania who are buying homes and starting families. With a $1,250 monthly student loan bill, McMullin says can’t even afford to live alone or buy a car. In fact, he feels trapped by his choices.

“I have genuine fears I won’t have a reasonable chance of hitting major milestones until much later in life,” he said. “I don’t think a degree, certainly not a private one, was necessary. It’s not going to help me achieve some of the things in life that really matter.”

Related tickers:
321034Z:US (Columbia University in the City of New York)
545745Z:US (Cornell University)
317595Z:US (Dartmouth College)
3252Z:US (Harvard University)
8943Z:US (Princeton University)
318542Z:US (University of Pennsylvania)
6047Z:US (Yale University)
3648655Z:US (University of Georgia)
27359MF:US (Tulane University)
854804Z:US (Wake Forest University)
321042Z:US (New York University)
51051MF:US (Manhattan College)
855080Z:US (Franklin and Marshall College)
855104Z:US (Oberlin College)
780797Z:US (Vassar College)
317611Z:US (Wellesley College)
BX:US (Blackstone Inc.)
5092Z:US (Ernst & Young LLP)
Editors:
Jennifer Bissell-Linsk
Yue Qiu
Craig Giammona
With the assistance of:
Brittany Harris
Methodology
Bloomberg’s analysis was of more than 1,500 four-year, nonprofit undergraduate colleges and universities in the US that predominantly offer Bachelor’s degrees. The data was provided by Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce (CEW), which used College Scorecard data for its calculations. The data are based on surveys of graduates who accepted federal aid during enrollment, meaning the outcomes of students who paid out of pocket are not included in the analysis.

The most recent iteration of the College Scorecard data include the 2019 and 2020 earnings of students who were enrolled in 2008-09 and 2009-10. These earnings are then adjusted to 2021 dollars and reported at the median. CEW’s calculations take into consideration College Scorecard’s data on net price and median earnings at six, eight and 10 years after initial attendance. It took averages between years 6, 8, and 10 to get earnings for years 7 and 9. And it did not take into consideration the cost to service debt associated with earning the degree. The net price figure is the cost of attendance, including room and board, minus federal and institutional aid and scholarships. The calculation also assumes students incurred costs for five years — which is the average time it takes to graduate — and didn’t start earning money until six years out from enrollment. Then, the center’s figure for the return on investment is expressed as a net present value as of 2021, in which future cash flows were given a 2% discount rate.

The analysis then categorized CEW’s data by public, public flagship, private, elite private and Ivy League institutions. It relied on data from CEW to do so for all but the elite private category. This category was derived from the list provided in Howard and Matthew Greene’s book The Hidden Ivies, which is an in-depth look at 63 colleges and universities offering a broad liberal arts education. Highly selective schools notably missing from this list, however, include the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, Harvey Mudd College, Boston University and New York University.

Salary comparison to a typical high school graduate compares the median earnings in the CEW data, which is in 2021 dollars, to the 2021 datapoint for salary of recent high school graduates from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

STEM major percentages are calculated based on data from IPEDS on first major degrees given in 2022 and the Department of Homeland Security STEM Designated Degree Program List. Some schools are not included in the data.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publicat ... yield.html

[lagerhead]

If we have any Bloomberg subscribers in the forum, it would be interesting if you could cut & paste this article, or at least a list of schools & ROI.

Do they include a ROI for the service academies ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024 ... ify%20wall

The article basically argues that unless an Ivy or a small set of the very top other schools (eg MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech etc) the best ROI is found in technical degrees from major flagship publics. Better than the privates considered 'little Ivies' with a few exceptions.

Average Ivy ROI after 10 years: $265.5K
Public Flagship: $148k
Elite Private: $135K
Public: $118k
Private: $82K

There's a scatter graph which allows you to see schools, but I didn't see a way to search for a specific school other than hunt...and I didn't happen to see any service academies, though obviously that's an extremely high ROI given guaranteed zero cost!

The other comment I'd make is that if you're lucky enough to get full or close to full aid at an Ivy or close to Ivy it crushes anything else. And a flagship public is pretty super too. There's much more need based aid at Ivies and the like, but academic scholarships can be earned at the flagship publics and that could be a lot better than paying half or full boat at many small privates.

Very few colleges have a negative ROI though a few do, mostly in the arts.

I think the basic lesson is that technical degrees from decently strong technical programs (but not highly selective overall) have a pretty high base level earnings whereas with non-technical you're much better off at a major brand than lesser but selective private paying much the same top dollar. But at the very top, the best ROI is with the most selective schools, over good technical, regardless of whether primarily liberal arts. But the very most selective technical schools also have the very highest ROI.

Just don't go to less selective and do non technical...

Wealth | Big Take
If You Didn’t Get Into Dartmouth, a Public School Is the Better Investment
Many elite private colleges underperform when it comes to the average student’s return, an analysis shows.

By
Paulina Cachero
Francesca Maglione
Cedric Sam
Denise Lu
April 10, 2024

Gift this article
Almost everyone wants to go to an Ivy League school. But if you don’t get in — and most don’t — your next best option isn’t necessarily the most prestigious college that accepted you.

A Bloomberg News analysis of more than 1,500 nonprofit four-year colleges shows the return on investment at many elite private institutions outside the eight Ivies is no better than far-less selective public universities.

In fact, the typical 10-year return on investment of the so-called “Hidden Ivies” — a list of 63 top private colleges — is about 49% less than the official Ivies and 9% less than states’ most prominent universities, known as public flagships.

That’s according to ROI calculations provided by Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce, which relied on publicly available tuition and earnings data of graduates who accepted federal financial aid, meaning the analysis doesn’t include information on those who paid out of pocket.

Public Institutions Outperform Many Elite Private Colleges
The ROI at
University of Georgia

is $170,000 after 10 years. The annual cost of attendance is $27,329.

Public Public flagship Private Elite private Ivy

10
20
30
40
50
60
70
$
80
K
Annual cost of attendance
–200
–100
0
100
200
300
$
400
K
Return on investment
Median: $98,000
Lower tuition and cost of living
Higher tuition and cost of living
University of Georgia
Source: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce. Note: Cost of attendance includes the advertised price for tuition, fees, books, supplies, and the average living costs at the school. Elite private schools are from the list provided in Howard and Matthew Greene’s book The Hidden Ivies.
Historically, families have been willing to pay more for prestigious private colleges that promise to open doors to world-renowned programs, esteemed faculty and robust alumni networks. But as the cost of attendance approaches $90,000 a year at many of these elite colleges and the student debt crisis stretches past $1.6 trillion, students are finding the more expensive route isn’t always a safe bet.

For example, elite private institutions like Vassar College and Oberlin College respectively return 18% and a whopping 85% less than the median ROI of all public schools analyzed.

Public Flagships May Be a Better Bet Than Elite Private Colleges
Median ROI 10 years after enrollment
Ivy
Public flagship
Elite private
Public
Private
0
50.0K
100.0K
150.0K
200.0K
250.0K
$265.5K
148.0K
135.0K
118.0K
82.0K

Source: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce
When it comes to how much money is in a graduate’s bank account a few years out — a time when many are looking for financial freedom from parents and the ability to build wealth by saving for a house or retirement — those who pay less for school tend to hold an advantage.


Take Charles Zigliara, a now 23-year-old credit analyst at Blackstone Inc., who said he weighed three options when he was a high school senior in Atlanta applying to colleges.

The University of Georgia, a public flagship where he got scholarships to cover tuition in full.
Tulane University, a Hidden Ivy in Louisiana that offered to cover half his tuition.
Wake Forest University, another selective college in North Carolina, where he didn’t get a scholarship.
If money were no object, Zigliara said he would have chosen Wake Forest at the time. He was reluctant to give up a prestigious name. But in hindsight, he’s glad he chose the University of Georgia. He enjoyed his experience and feels like he got the same outcome he would have had he attended a “brand-name” institution. Not only did he graduate debt free, but he also got a job at Ernst & Young LLP right after graduation.

“I knew that I was going to be working hard enough and having high enough aspirations to where that brand name was not going to make or break me,” he said.

A portrait of a young man in a blue suit
Charles Zigliara, a credit analyst for Blackstone, in Miami, Florida. Photographer: Alfonso Duran/Bloomberg
Turns out, it was the right choice from an ROI perspective too — and it would have been even without a full tuition scholarship.

The average ROI before taxes at the University of Georgia is $170,000 10 years from enrollment, according to Georgetown’s CEW data. That’s 31% higher than Wake Forest’s return of $130,000 and more than five times that of Tulane’s $31,000.

University of Georgia

Tulane University of Louisiana

PUBLIC FLAGSHIP, GEORGIA
48% ACCEPTANCE
ELITE PRIVATE, LOUISIANA
11% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$170,000
$31,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$59,769
$56,999
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$14,257
$39,749
A spokesperson for Tulane said CEW’s calculation was an unfair point of comparison, noting the figure is a reflection of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina when incoming student enrollment dropped and a third of its student population was part-time adult learners at its School of Continuing Studies. A representative for Wake Forest also noted CEW’s figure was only relevant to students who accept federal aid. The majority of its students pay out of pocket, meaning they don’t rely on federal loans, grants or work-study arrangements.

Prestige Doesn’t Always Pay
Higher education has long been the golden ticket to social mobility in the US.

College graduates are more likely to secure higher paying jobs, granting them stability and a better quality of life. The reward is believed to be even sweeter for those admitted to a top school. But with a changing job market and soaring tuition costs, more people are questioning whether it’s worth as much as six figures to attend an elite institution.


Some parents have adopted an “Ivy-or-bust” mentality, placing prestige above all when thinking about college. And while the higher return on investment is notable for the Ivies — families might want to think again before handing over hundreds of thousands of dollars for the next best school.

CEW’s calculations — which examine the net present value of the typical graduate’s earnings minus the average price paid after aid packages — shows a degree from an elite private college 10 years from enrollment is worth about $135,000 compared to $265,500 at an Ivy, according to the analysis.

It’s a striking gap, especially when these universities are considered to be “the best” and “next best” schools.

More than 140 public institutions accepting the majority of applicants are able to return more than $135,000 for the typical student after 10 years. And public flagship institutions, which can be more selective, tend to do even better with a typical 10-year ROI of $148,000.

Public flagship
Median ROI: $148,000

0
$
400
K
ROI
148K
0
$
400
K
ROI
Lower
Cost of attendance
Higher
Elite private
Median ROI: $135,000

0
$
400
K
ROI
135K
0
$
400
K
ROI
Ivy
Median ROI: $265,500

0
$
400
K
ROI
266K
0
$
400
K
ROI
“If you get into an Ivy, the ROI is going to be great. But if you’re part of the 99% of students who don’t get in, regional and state flagship schools can punch above their weight and allow a strong return on investment,” said Michael Itzkowitz, founder of HEA Group and the former director of College Scorecard, the publisher of the student outcomes dataset Georgetown’s CEW used.

To be sure, the assumptions baked into CEW’s calculations provide a somewhat limited outlook on the value of a college degree. For instance, working a $10-an-hour job full time for 10 years would produce a comparable ROI of $191,000 before taxes. CEW assumes the typical student is incurring costs and not working for the first five years after enrollment, as that’s the average time it takes to graduate. So 10 years out, a school’s ROI can look significantly worse than after, say, 40 years when the cost of tuition is dwarfed by a lifetime of elevated earnings. The same logic holds when comparing expensive colleges against cheaper ones. Further out, the return can look better for a more expensive school, if it’s able to get students higher paying jobs.

A typical graduate from
University of Georgia

earns $59,769 10 years after enrollment. That’s 77% more than the typical high school graduate.

But that’s not always a guarantee. Nearly half of all college graduates find themselves working jobs that don’t require a degree a decade out of college, according to a report by the Burning Glass Institute and the Strada Education Foundation. That can be crippling for students who took on debt and were banking on higher earnings to pay off their loans. For many, the ROI of their degree could be even lower than CEW estimates as its calculations didn’t include the cost to service student loan debt and a lot of graduates are paying interest rates north of 7%.

Related: The Big Take Podcast

Listen and subscribe to The Big Take on
iHeart
Apple
Spotify
The Terminal
Caitlin McCarty transferred to New York University from Manhattan College, thinking she’d find better connections and employment opportunities at a brand-name school — even if it meant an additional $25,000 in debt by the time she graduated in 2019.

“I thought everyone knows NYU. It’s going to help me get such a great job,” she said. “And then I started applying and I was like, ‘it’s not helping.’”


Eventually she found her first full-time job as an executive assistant at a small company. But currently unemployed, she says she’s never used any of the skills she learned in college and regrets the extra money she paid for NYU.

“At the end of the day, I just don’t think it was worth it,” she said.

Compared to NYU, the average Manhattan College graduate not only pays less for a degree but commands a 9% higher salary. Manhattan College has struggled financially lately, announcing cuts to staff and programs this year. But its ROI is meaningfully higher at $180,000 10 years after enrollment, compared to NYU’s $107,000, according to CEW data.

New York University

Manhattan College

PRIVATE, NEW YORK
21% ACCEPTANCE
PRIVATE, NEW YORK
78% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$107,000
$180,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$76,040
$83,117
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$38,569
$30,215
Major Makes the Difference
When Georgetown’s CEW began to publish ROI calculations in 2019, it acknowledged the awkwardness in discussing a degree’s return on investment in the same terms as a tangible financial asset. It depends on the degree and what a graduate does with it.

Technical majors such as computer science, engineering or mathematics can serve as a direct pathway to a good job early in one’s career, translating to higher earnings right out of college. That’s why schools with more STEM majors tend to outperform other top universities when it comes to ROI figures.

Colleges With More STEM Graduates Have Higher Returns
The 10-year ROI at
University of Georgia

is $170,000 with roughly 28% of students graduating with STEM majors.

Public Public flagship Private Elite private Ivy

0
20
40
60
80
100
%
Share of students in STEM majors
–200
–100
0
100
200
300
$
400
K
Return on investment
University of Georgia
Sources: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce and IPEDS. Note: Data are not available for all schools, and schools with no STEM majors in the data are excluded.
The top four colleges with the highest ROIs, for instance, comprise a list of highly specialized schools: the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the University of Health Sciences and Pharmacy in St. Louis, the California Institute of Technology, and the Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences.

“The ROI of a degree is associated much more with major than school,” said Martin Van Der Werf, director of editorial and education policy at CEW. “A brand name can be important. But it’s important for people to decouple the school from what they want to do. They should focus on what they want to do and narrow it down from there.”

The reality is, however, many students are unsure about what they want to study in their late teens, so when picking out colleges, applicants tend to focus on reputation, rather than career outcomes.

University of Georgia

, a flagship public school, returns 36% less than the typical Ivy League institution and 26% more than elite private colleges.

For Celeste Watkins, the decision came down to a combination of prestige and financial aid. After applying to more than 25 universities, she ended up going to Franklin & Marshall College, a Hidden Ivy in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

There, she pursued a major in biology with a minor in Chinese area studies and remembers having a “dearth of information” regarding potential careers. After graduating in December 2016, she worked in customer support and retail positions before landing a job as an administrative assistant at a Chinese railcar manufacturer. But feeling her career options were limited — even after attending a premier school — she decided to pursue a master’s degree in business administration at Yale University, taking on more than $100,000 in debt to do so.

“It’s the information asymmetry that I think is driving a lot of the question of, is college worth it or not,” she said. “You simply don’t have enough of the right information to know, here is reasonably what I can expect to be doing with my life after school.”

A portrait of a young woman wearing a long cardigan and shirt with a Yale Y logo, leaning against a wall
Celeste Watkins on campus at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut. Photographer: Joe Buglewicz/Bloomberg
The curriculum at liberal arts colleges typically focuses on the humanities, arts, social sciences and natural sciences. Graduates develop in-demand soft skills such as critical thinking — which may garner renewed interest with the rise of artificial intelligence — but non-technical majors often lead to jobs with lower wages.

According to a separate 2019 CEW report, the ROI of a liberal arts education 10 years after enrollment is around $62,000, or about 40% below the median ROI of all 4,500 two- and four-year colleges CEW analyzed, which was $107,000.


Elite liberal arts colleges tend to do better. The average graduate of Franklin & Marshall has a 10-year ROI of $123,000, which the college said should increase as time goes on. Still, graduates of top schools can find the career opportunities lacking, pushing some into graduate school, which can require more debt and delay earnings even further out.

Take a school like Oberlin College. It says its graduates have earned more research doctorates than graduates of any other four-year college. But Oberlin also has the lowest ROI of the Hidden Ivies analyzed, coming in at $18,000 10 years from enrollment.

Franklin and Marshall College

Oberlin College

ELITE PRIVATE, PENNSYLVANIA
37% ACCEPTANCE
ELITE PRIVATE, OHIO
35% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$123,000
$18,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$72,227
$47,921
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$30,911
$34,777
A factor driving this is that students pay a hefty net price of $34,777 a year, compared to a median of $29,000 for all Hidden Ivies. Plus, Oberlin’s most popular major is music performance, followed by psychology. These tend to be lower-paying degrees and could explain why the median salary of Oberlin graduates 10 years from enrollment is $48,000, compared to almost $73,000 for other Hidden Ivies.

It’s a similar story at Vassar, which returns about $98,000 10 years after enrollment.

The majority of its students are enrolled in non-STEM fields, such as psychology, English and political science, pushing down the median salary of graduates. According to Vassar President Elizabeth Bradley, a considerable number of students also pursue graduate education or “competitive fellowships” right after college.

“For a substantial group of our graduates it may take longer to see earnings rise, but our data points out that it does rise,” she said.

Up for Debate
Asked about the findings, some of the schools contacted argued the return on investment of a college degree can’t be expressed as a dollar figure – alluding to intangible benefits such as student experience and a school’s academic rigor.

“It is impossible to distill the excellence of any given college into one ranking, particularly one that only looks at success in terms of dollars and cents,” said Andrea Simakis, an Oberlin spokesperson, who noted the school’s graduates are well-represented among Grammy winners and MacArthur genius fellows. “Not only does this study not capture the lifetime ROI of these individuals, it does not begin to capture the ROI to the world.”

Future earnings are just one part of an ROI, added Alan Caniglia, Franklin & Marshall’s vice president for institutional research and chief strategy officer. “The ability to do work you value, the quality of life beyond the career, and your contributions as a citizen and community member” are also important, he said. Additionally, the school provides “substantial programs to help students prepare and plan for their professional careers.”


Other schools also noted CEW’s calculations don’t take into account the location of schools and migration of students after graduation in the context of earnings. Universities in close proximity to high-paying cities like New York, for instance, are more likely to produce a higher median salary for graduates than those located in the midwest or south.

Furthermore, academics contacted by Bloomberg said that while they agree students must consider costs when picking out an institution, attending college will always be worth it.

“Whatever that right fit school is for you, that’s where you should be, independent of financial ability or ability to pay,” said Phillip Levine, an economics professor at Wellesley College. “If you have that student who should be going to a very top institution, but ends up at the community college because they think that that’s what they can afford, that’s a mistake.”

Wealth Deferred
Still, as graduates take on more debt and pay down balances for longer, many aren’t able to see the same wealth-building advantages typically associated with higher education.

A Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis report from 2019 found that while college graduates still enjoy higher salaries, the wealth premium had declined for more recent graduates, thanks in part to the rising cost of college.

Federal Student Loan Debt Has More Than Doubled Since 2010
0
0.5
1.0
$ 1.5 T
2010
'11
'12
'13
'14
'15
'16
'17
'18
'19
'20
'21
'22
2023

Source: US Education Department
“If you’re busy paying down student loan debt as opposed to putting money in a 401(k) or down towards a house, that has larger macro economic consequences,” said Ana Hernández Kent, a senior researcher at the St. Louis Fed. “Even if it’s just a few years, it’s taking graduates longer to get there. They don’t have as much time to allow those assets to appreciate.”


That seems to be the case for Ryan McMullin, a 27 year old in Washington DC, who now works at a top consulting firm.

McMullin attended the renowned Elliott School of International Affairs at George Washington University, studied for a year at the Paris Institute of Political Studies and worked as a paralegal for a law firm.

But even with his success, he wonders if he made the right choices — starting with the decision to take on $145,000 in student debt. While he earns more than the average American, he says the burden of his debt outweighs the higher paycheck he earns.

He thinks of his former high school classmates in Pennsylvania who are buying homes and starting families. With a $1,250 monthly student loan bill, McMullin says can’t even afford to live alone or buy a car. In fact, he feels trapped by his choices.

“I have genuine fears I won’t have a reasonable chance of hitting major milestones until much later in life,” he said. “I don’t think a degree, certainly not a private one, was necessary. It’s not going to help me achieve some of the things in life that really matter.”

Related tickers:
321034Z:US (Columbia University in the City of New York)
545745Z:US (Cornell University)
317595Z:US (Dartmouth College)
3252Z:US (Harvard University)
8943Z:US (Princeton University)
318542Z:US (University of Pennsylvania)
6047Z:US (Yale University)
3648655Z:US (University of Georgia)
27359MF:US (Tulane University)
854804Z:US (Wake Forest University)
321042Z:US (New York University)
51051MF:US (Manhattan College)
855080Z:US (Franklin and Marshall College)
855104Z:US (Oberlin College)
780797Z:US (Vassar College)
317611Z:US (Wellesley College)
BX:US (Blackstone Inc.)
5092Z:US (Ernst & Young LLP)
Editors:
Jennifer Bissell-Linsk
Yue Qiu
Craig Giammona
With the assistance of:
Brittany Harris
Methodology
Bloomberg’s analysis was of more than 1,500 four-year, nonprofit undergraduate colleges and universities in the US that predominantly offer Bachelor’s degrees. The data was provided by Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce (CEW), which used College Scorecard data for its calculations. The data are based on surveys of graduates who accepted federal aid during enrollment, meaning the outcomes of students who paid out of pocket are not included in the analysis.

The most recent iteration of the College Scorecard data include the 2019 and 2020 earnings of students who were enrolled in 2008-09 and 2009-10. These earnings are then adjusted to 2021 dollars and reported at the median. CEW’s calculations take into consideration College Scorecard’s data on net price and median earnings at six, eight and 10 years after initial attendance. It took averages between years 6, 8, and 10 to get earnings for years 7 and 9. And it did not take into consideration the cost to service debt associated with earning the degree. The net price figure is the cost of attendance, including room and board, minus federal and institutional aid and scholarships. The calculation also assumes students incurred costs for five years — which is the average time it takes to graduate — and didn’t start earning money until six years out from enrollment. Then, the center’s figure for the return on investment is expressed as a net present value as of 2021, in which future cash flows were given a 2% discount rate.

The analysis then categorized CEW’s data by public, public flagship, private, elite private and Ivy League institutions. It relied on data from CEW to do so for all but the elite private category. This category was derived from the list provided in Howard and Matthew Greene’s book The Hidden Ivies, which is an in-depth look at 63 colleges and universities offering a broad liberal arts education. Highly selective schools notably missing from this list, however, include the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, Harvey Mudd College, Boston University and New York University.

Salary comparison to a typical high school graduate compares the median earnings in the CEW data, which is in 2021 dollars, to the 2021 datapoint for salary of recent high school graduates from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

STEM major percentages are calculated based on data from IPEDS on first major degrees given in 2022 and the Department of Homeland Security STEM Designated Degree Program List. Some schools are not included in the data.

What’s the ROI for an academy graduate killed or wounded in the line of duty fulfilling his or hers obligation?

[SCLaxAttack]

If we have any Bloomberg subscribers in the forum, it would be interesting if you could cut & paste this article, or at least a list of schools & ROI.

Do they include a ROI for the service academies ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024 ... ify%20wall

The article basically argues that unless an Ivy or a small set of the very top other schools (eg MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech etc) the best ROI is found in technical degrees from major flagship publics. Better than the privates considered 'little Ivies' with a few exceptions.

Average Ivy ROI after 10 years: $265.5K
Public Flagship: $148k
Elite Private: $135K
Public: $118k
Private: $82K

There's a scatter graph which allows you to see schools, but I didn't see a way to search for a specific school other than hunt...and I didn't happen to see any service academies, though obviously that's an extremely high ROI given guaranteed zero cost!

The other comment I'd make is that if you're lucky enough to get full or close to full aid at an Ivy or close to Ivy it crushes anything else. And a flagship public is pretty super too. There's much more need based aid at Ivies and the like, but academic scholarships can be earned at the flagship publics and that could be a lot better than paying half or full boat at many small privates.

Very few colleges have a negative ROI though a few do, mostly in the arts.

I think the basic lesson is that technical degrees from decently strong technical programs (but not highly selective overall) have a pretty high base level earnings whereas with non-technical you're much better off at a major brand than lesser but selective private paying much the same top dollar. But at the very top, the best ROI is with the most selective schools, over good technical, regardless of whether primarily liberal arts. But the very most selective technical schools also have the very highest ROI.

Just don't go to less selective and do non technical...

Wealth | Big Take
If You Didn’t Get Into Dartmouth, a Public School Is the Better Investment
Many elite private colleges underperform when it comes to the average student’s return, an analysis shows.

By
Paulina Cachero
Francesca Maglione
Cedric Sam
Denise Lu
April 10, 2024

Gift this article
Almost everyone wants to go to an Ivy League school. But if you don’t get in — and most don’t — your next best option isn’t necessarily the most prestigious college that accepted you.

A Bloomberg News analysis of more than 1,500 nonprofit four-year colleges shows the return on investment at many elite private institutions outside the eight Ivies is no better than far-less selective public universities.

In fact, the typical 10-year return on investment of the so-called “Hidden Ivies” — a list of 63 top private colleges — is about 49% less than the official Ivies and 9% less than states’ most prominent universities, known as public flagships.

That’s according to ROI calculations provided by Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce, which relied on publicly available tuition and earnings data of graduates who accepted federal financial aid, meaning the analysis doesn’t include information on those who paid out of pocket.

Public Institutions Outperform Many Elite Private Colleges
The ROI at
University of Georgia

is $170,000 after 10 years. The annual cost of attendance is $27,329.

Public Public flagship Private Elite private Ivy

10
20
30
40
50
60
70
$
80
K
Annual cost of attendance
–200
–100
0
100
200
300
$
400
K
Return on investment
Median: $98,000
Lower tuition and cost of living
Higher tuition and cost of living
University of Georgia
Source: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce. Note: Cost of attendance includes the advertised price for tuition, fees, books, supplies, and the average living costs at the school. Elite private schools are from the list provided in Howard and Matthew Greene’s book The Hidden Ivies.
Historically, families have been willing to pay more for prestigious private colleges that promise to open doors to world-renowned programs, esteemed faculty and robust alumni networks. But as the cost of attendance approaches $90,000 a year at many of these elite colleges and the student debt crisis stretches past $1.6 trillion, students are finding the more expensive route isn’t always a safe bet.

For example, elite private institutions like Vassar College and Oberlin College respectively return 18% and a whopping 85% less than the median ROI of all public schools analyzed.

Public Flagships May Be a Better Bet Than Elite Private Colleges
Median ROI 10 years after enrollment
Ivy
Public flagship
Elite private
Public
Private
0
50.0K
100.0K
150.0K
200.0K
250.0K
$265.5K
148.0K
135.0K
118.0K
82.0K

Source: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce
When it comes to how much money is in a graduate’s bank account a few years out — a time when many are looking for financial freedom from parents and the ability to build wealth by saving for a house or retirement — those who pay less for school tend to hold an advantage.


Take Charles Zigliara, a now 23-year-old credit analyst at Blackstone Inc., who said he weighed three options when he was a high school senior in Atlanta applying to colleges.

The University of Georgia, a public flagship where he got scholarships to cover tuition in full.
Tulane University, a Hidden Ivy in Louisiana that offered to cover half his tuition.
Wake Forest University, another selective college in North Carolina, where he didn’t get a scholarship.
If money were no object, Zigliara said he would have chosen Wake Forest at the time. He was reluctant to give up a prestigious name. But in hindsight, he’s glad he chose the University of Georgia. He enjoyed his experience and feels like he got the same outcome he would have had he attended a “brand-name” institution. Not only did he graduate debt free, but he also got a job at Ernst & Young LLP right after graduation.

“I knew that I was going to be working hard enough and having high enough aspirations to where that brand name was not going to make or break me,” he said.

A portrait of a young man in a blue suit
Charles Zigliara, a credit analyst for Blackstone, in Miami, Florida. Photographer: Alfonso Duran/Bloomberg
Turns out, it was the right choice from an ROI perspective too — and it would have been even without a full tuition scholarship.

The average ROI before taxes at the University of Georgia is $170,000 10 years from enrollment, according to Georgetown’s CEW data. That’s 31% higher than Wake Forest’s return of $130,000 and more than five times that of Tulane’s $31,000.

University of Georgia

Tulane University of Louisiana

PUBLIC FLAGSHIP, GEORGIA
48% ACCEPTANCE
ELITE PRIVATE, LOUISIANA
11% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$170,000
$31,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$59,769
$56,999
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$14,257
$39,749
A spokesperson for Tulane said CEW’s calculation was an unfair point of comparison, noting the figure is a reflection of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina when incoming student enrollment dropped and a third of its student population was part-time adult learners at its School of Continuing Studies. A representative for Wake Forest also noted CEW’s figure was only relevant to students who accept federal aid. The majority of its students pay out of pocket, meaning they don’t rely on federal loans, grants or work-study arrangements.

Prestige Doesn’t Always Pay
Higher education has long been the golden ticket to social mobility in the US.

College graduates are more likely to secure higher paying jobs, granting them stability and a better quality of life. The reward is believed to be even sweeter for those admitted to a top school. But with a changing job market and soaring tuition costs, more people are questioning whether it’s worth as much as six figures to attend an elite institution.


Some parents have adopted an “Ivy-or-bust” mentality, placing prestige above all when thinking about college. And while the higher return on investment is notable for the Ivies — families might want to think again before handing over hundreds of thousands of dollars for the next best school.

CEW’s calculations — which examine the net present value of the typical graduate’s earnings minus the average price paid after aid packages — shows a degree from an elite private college 10 years from enrollment is worth about $135,000 compared to $265,500 at an Ivy, according to the analysis.

It’s a striking gap, especially when these universities are considered to be “the best” and “next best” schools.

More than 140 public institutions accepting the majority of applicants are able to return more than $135,000 for the typical student after 10 years. And public flagship institutions, which can be more selective, tend to do even better with a typical 10-year ROI of $148,000.

Public flagship
Median ROI: $148,000

0
$
400
K
ROI
148K
0
$
400
K
ROI
Lower
Cost of attendance
Higher
Elite private
Median ROI: $135,000

0
$
400
K
ROI
135K
0
$
400
K
ROI
Ivy
Median ROI: $265,500

0
$
400
K
ROI
266K
0
$
400
K
ROI
“If you get into an Ivy, the ROI is going to be great. But if you’re part of the 99% of students who don’t get in, regional and state flagship schools can punch above their weight and allow a strong return on investment,” said Michael Itzkowitz, founder of HEA Group and the former director of College Scorecard, the publisher of the student outcomes dataset Georgetown’s CEW used.

To be sure, the assumptions baked into CEW’s calculations provide a somewhat limited outlook on the value of a college degree. For instance, working a $10-an-hour job full time for 10 years would produce a comparable ROI of $191,000 before taxes. CEW assumes the typical student is incurring costs and not working for the first five years after enrollment, as that’s the average time it takes to graduate. So 10 years out, a school’s ROI can look significantly worse than after, say, 40 years when the cost of tuition is dwarfed by a lifetime of elevated earnings. The same logic holds when comparing expensive colleges against cheaper ones. Further out, the return can look better for a more expensive school, if it’s able to get students higher paying jobs.

A typical graduate from
University of Georgia

earns $59,769 10 years after enrollment. That’s 77% more than the typical high school graduate.

But that’s not always a guarantee. Nearly half of all college graduates find themselves working jobs that don’t require a degree a decade out of college, according to a report by the Burning Glass Institute and the Strada Education Foundation. That can be crippling for students who took on debt and were banking on higher earnings to pay off their loans. For many, the ROI of their degree could be even lower than CEW estimates as its calculations didn’t include the cost to service student loan debt and a lot of graduates are paying interest rates north of 7%.

Related: The Big Take Podcast

Listen and subscribe to The Big Take on
iHeart
Apple
Spotify
The Terminal
Caitlin McCarty transferred to New York University from Manhattan College, thinking she’d find better connections and employment opportunities at a brand-name school — even if it meant an additional $25,000 in debt by the time she graduated in 2019.

“I thought everyone knows NYU. It’s going to help me get such a great job,” she said. “And then I started applying and I was like, ‘it’s not helping.’”


Eventually she found her first full-time job as an executive assistant at a small company. But currently unemployed, she says she’s never used any of the skills she learned in college and regrets the extra money she paid for NYU.

“At the end of the day, I just don’t think it was worth it,” she said.

Compared to NYU, the average Manhattan College graduate not only pays less for a degree but commands a 9% higher salary. Manhattan College has struggled financially lately, announcing cuts to staff and programs this year. But its ROI is meaningfully higher at $180,000 10 years after enrollment, compared to NYU’s $107,000, according to CEW data.

New York University

Manhattan College

PRIVATE, NEW YORK
21% ACCEPTANCE
PRIVATE, NEW YORK
78% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$107,000
$180,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$76,040
$83,117
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$38,569
$30,215
Major Makes the Difference
When Georgetown’s CEW began to publish ROI calculations in 2019, it acknowledged the awkwardness in discussing a degree’s return on investment in the same terms as a tangible financial asset. It depends on the degree and what a graduate does with it.

Technical majors such as computer science, engineering or mathematics can serve as a direct pathway to a good job early in one’s career, translating to higher earnings right out of college. That’s why schools with more STEM majors tend to outperform other top universities when it comes to ROI figures.

Colleges With More STEM Graduates Have Higher Returns
The 10-year ROI at
University of Georgia

is $170,000 with roughly 28% of students graduating with STEM majors.

Public Public flagship Private Elite private Ivy

0
20
40
60
80
100
%
Share of students in STEM majors
–200
–100
0
100
200
300
$
400
K
Return on investment
University of Georgia
Sources: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce and IPEDS. Note: Data are not available for all schools, and schools with no STEM majors in the data are excluded.
The top four colleges with the highest ROIs, for instance, comprise a list of highly specialized schools: the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the University of Health Sciences and Pharmacy in St. Louis, the California Institute of Technology, and the Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences.

“The ROI of a degree is associated much more with major than school,” said Martin Van Der Werf, director of editorial and education policy at CEW. “A brand name can be important. But it’s important for people to decouple the school from what they want to do. They should focus on what they want to do and narrow it down from there.”

The reality is, however, many students are unsure about what they want to study in their late teens, so when picking out colleges, applicants tend to focus on reputation, rather than career outcomes.

University of Georgia

, a flagship public school, returns 36% less than the typical Ivy League institution and 26% more than elite private colleges.

For Celeste Watkins, the decision came down to a combination of prestige and financial aid. After applying to more than 25 universities, she ended up going to Franklin & Marshall College, a Hidden Ivy in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

There, she pursued a major in biology with a minor in Chinese area studies and remembers having a “dearth of information” regarding potential careers. After graduating in December 2016, she worked in customer support and retail positions before landing a job as an administrative assistant at a Chinese railcar manufacturer. But feeling her career options were limited — even after attending a premier school — she decided to pursue a master’s degree in business administration at Yale University, taking on more than $100,000 in debt to do so.

“It’s the information asymmetry that I think is driving a lot of the question of, is college worth it or not,” she said. “You simply don’t have enough of the right information to know, here is reasonably what I can expect to be doing with my life after school.”

A portrait of a young woman wearing a long cardigan and shirt with a Yale Y logo, leaning against a wall
Celeste Watkins on campus at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut. Photographer: Joe Buglewicz/Bloomberg
The curriculum at liberal arts colleges typically focuses on the humanities, arts, social sciences and natural sciences. Graduates develop in-demand soft skills such as critical thinking — which may garner renewed interest with the rise of artificial intelligence — but non-technical majors often lead to jobs with lower wages.

According to a separate 2019 CEW report, the ROI of a liberal arts education 10 years after enrollment is around $62,000, or about 40% below the median ROI of all 4,500 two- and four-year colleges CEW analyzed, which was $107,000.


Elite liberal arts colleges tend to do better. The average graduate of Franklin & Marshall has a 10-year ROI of $123,000, which the college said should increase as time goes on. Still, graduates of top schools can find the career opportunities lacking, pushing some into graduate school, which can require more debt and delay earnings even further out.

Take a school like Oberlin College. It says its graduates have earned more research doctorates than graduates of any other four-year college. But Oberlin also has the lowest ROI of the Hidden Ivies analyzed, coming in at $18,000 10 years from enrollment.

Franklin and Marshall College

Oberlin College

ELITE PRIVATE, PENNSYLVANIA
37% ACCEPTANCE
ELITE PRIVATE, OHIO
35% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$123,000
$18,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$72,227
$47,921
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$30,911
$34,777
A factor driving this is that students pay a hefty net price of $34,777 a year, compared to a median of $29,000 for all Hidden Ivies. Plus, Oberlin’s most popular major is music performance, followed by psychology. These tend to be lower-paying degrees and could explain why the median salary of Oberlin graduates 10 years from enrollment is $48,000, compared to almost $73,000 for other Hidden Ivies.

It’s a similar story at Vassar, which returns about $98,000 10 years after enrollment.

The majority of its students are enrolled in non-STEM fields, such as psychology, English and political science, pushing down the median salary of graduates. According to Vassar President Elizabeth Bradley, a considerable number of students also pursue graduate education or “competitive fellowships” right after college.

“For a substantial group of our graduates it may take longer to see earnings rise, but our data points out that it does rise,” she said.

Up for Debate
Asked about the findings, some of the schools contacted argued the return on investment of a college degree can’t be expressed as a dollar figure – alluding to intangible benefits such as student experience and a school’s academic rigor.

“It is impossible to distill the excellence of any given college into one ranking, particularly one that only looks at success in terms of dollars and cents,” said Andrea Simakis, an Oberlin spokesperson, who noted the school’s graduates are well-represented among Grammy winners and MacArthur genius fellows. “Not only does this study not capture the lifetime ROI of these individuals, it does not begin to capture the ROI to the world.”

Future earnings are just one part of an ROI, added Alan Caniglia, Franklin & Marshall’s vice president for institutional research and chief strategy officer. “The ability to do work you value, the quality of life beyond the career, and your contributions as a citizen and community member” are also important, he said. Additionally, the school provides “substantial programs to help students prepare and plan for their professional careers.”


Other schools also noted CEW’s calculations don’t take into account the location of schools and migration of students after graduation in the context of earnings. Universities in close proximity to high-paying cities like New York, for instance, are more likely to produce a higher median salary for graduates than those located in the midwest or south.

Furthermore, academics contacted by Bloomberg said that while they agree students must consider costs when picking out an institution, attending college will always be worth it.

“Whatever that right fit school is for you, that’s where you should be, independent of financial ability or ability to pay,” said Phillip Levine, an economics professor at Wellesley College. “If you have that student who should be going to a very top institution, but ends up at the community college because they think that that’s what they can afford, that’s a mistake.”

Wealth Deferred
Still, as graduates take on more debt and pay down balances for longer, many aren’t able to see the same wealth-building advantages typically associated with higher education.

A Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis report from 2019 found that while college graduates still enjoy higher salaries, the wealth premium had declined for more recent graduates, thanks in part to the rising cost of college.

Federal Student Loan Debt Has More Than Doubled Since 2010
0
0.5
1.0
$ 1.5 T
2010
'11
'12
'13
'14
'15
'16
'17
'18
'19
'20
'21
'22
2023

Source: US Education Department
“If you’re busy paying down student loan debt as opposed to putting money in a 401(k) or down towards a house, that has larger macro economic consequences,” said Ana Hernández Kent, a senior researcher at the St. Louis Fed. “Even if it’s just a few years, it’s taking graduates longer to get there. They don’t have as much time to allow those assets to appreciate.”


That seems to be the case for Ryan McMullin, a 27 year old in Washington DC, who now works at a top consulting firm.

McMullin attended the renowned Elliott School of International Affairs at George Washington University, studied for a year at the Paris Institute of Political Studies and worked as a paralegal for a law firm.

But even with his success, he wonders if he made the right choices — starting with the decision to take on $145,000 in student debt. While he earns more than the average American, he says the burden of his debt outweighs the higher paycheck he earns.

He thinks of his former high school classmates in Pennsylvania who are buying homes and starting families. With a $1,250 monthly student loan bill, McMullin says can’t even afford to live alone or buy a car. In fact, he feels trapped by his choices.

“I have genuine fears I won’t have a reasonable chance of hitting major milestones until much later in life,” he said. “I don’t think a degree, certainly not a private one, was necessary. It’s not going to help me achieve some of the things in life that really matter.”

Related tickers:
321034Z:US (Columbia University in the City of New York)
545745Z:US (Cornell University)
317595Z:US (Dartmouth College)
3252Z:US (Harvard University)
8943Z:US (Princeton University)
318542Z:US (University of Pennsylvania)
6047Z:US (Yale University)
3648655Z:US (University of Georgia)
27359MF:US (Tulane University)
854804Z:US (Wake Forest University)
321042Z:US (New York University)
51051MF:US (Manhattan College)
855080Z:US (Franklin and Marshall College)
855104Z:US (Oberlin College)
780797Z:US (Vassar College)
317611Z:US (Wellesley College)
BX:US (Blackstone Inc.)
5092Z:US (Ernst & Young LLP)
Editors:
Jennifer Bissell-Linsk
Yue Qiu
Craig Giammona
With the assistance of:
Brittany Harris
Methodology
Bloomberg’s analysis was of more than 1,500 four-year, nonprofit undergraduate colleges and universities in the US that predominantly offer Bachelor’s degrees. The data was provided by Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce (CEW), which used College Scorecard data for its calculations. The data are based on surveys of graduates who accepted federal aid during enrollment, meaning the outcomes of students who paid out of pocket are not included in the analysis.

The most recent iteration of the College Scorecard data include the 2019 and 2020 earnings of students who were enrolled in 2008-09 and 2009-10. These earnings are then adjusted to 2021 dollars and reported at the median. CEW’s calculations take into consideration College Scorecard’s data on net price and median earnings at six, eight and 10 years after initial attendance. It took averages between years 6, 8, and 10 to get earnings for years 7 and 9. And it did not take into consideration the cost to service debt associated with earning the degree. The net price figure is the cost of attendance, including room and board, minus federal and institutional aid and scholarships. The calculation also assumes students incurred costs for five years — which is the average time it takes to graduate — and didn’t start earning money until six years out from enrollment. Then, the center’s figure for the return on investment is expressed as a net present value as of 2021, in which future cash flows were given a 2% discount rate.

The analysis then categorized CEW’s data by public, public flagship, private, elite private and Ivy League institutions. It relied on data from CEW to do so for all but the elite private category. This category was derived from the list provided in Howard and Matthew Greene’s book The Hidden Ivies, which is an in-depth look at 63 colleges and universities offering a broad liberal arts education. Highly selective schools notably missing from this list, however, include the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, Harvey Mudd College, Boston University and New York University.

Salary comparison to a typical high school graduate compares the median earnings in the CEW data, which is in 2021 dollars, to the 2021 datapoint for salary of recent high school graduates from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

STEM major percentages are calculated based on data from IPEDS on first major degrees given in 2022 and the Department of Homeland Security STEM Designated Degree Program List. Some schools are not included in the data.

What’s the ROI for an academy graduate killed or wounded in the line of duty fulfilling his or hers obligation?

Not as bad as the ROTC grad who pays for his/her college education and is then killed or wounded.

“The demand for Army officers is higher than it has been in years and most of those officers will come not from West Point or other military schools but instead from the swath of colleges and universities across the country through the Reserve Officer Training Corps.” - from https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-arm ... happening/

And for the record, these young men and women, whether through ROTC or an academy, volunteer to serve. They all know the risks involved.

[lagerhead]

If we have any Bloomberg subscribers in the forum, it would be interesting if you could cut & paste this article, or at least a list of schools & ROI.

Do they include a ROI for the service academies ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024 ... ify%20wall

The article basically argues that unless an Ivy or a small set of the very top other schools (eg MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech etc) the best ROI is found in technical degrees from major flagship publics. Better than the privates considered 'little Ivies' with a few exceptions.

Average Ivy ROI after 10 years: $265.5K
Public Flagship: $148k
Elite Private: $135K
Public: $118k
Private: $82K

There's a scatter graph which allows you to see schools, but I didn't see a way to search for a specific school other than hunt...and I didn't happen to see any service academies, though obviously that's an extremely high ROI given guaranteed zero cost!

The other comment I'd make is that if you're lucky enough to get full or close to full aid at an Ivy or close to Ivy it crushes anything else. And a flagship public is pretty super too. There's much more need based aid at Ivies and the like, but academic scholarships can be earned at the flagship publics and that could be a lot better than paying half or full boat at many small privates.

Very few colleges have a negative ROI though a few do, mostly in the arts.

I think the basic lesson is that technical degrees from decently strong technical programs (but not highly selective overall) have a pretty high base level earnings whereas with non-technical you're much better off at a major brand than lesser but selective private paying much the same top dollar. But at the very top, the best ROI is with the most selective schools, over good technical, regardless of whether primarily liberal arts. But the very most selective technical schools also have the very highest ROI.

Just don't go to less selective and do non technical...

Wealth | Big Take
If You Didn’t Get Into Dartmouth, a Public School Is the Better Investment
Many elite private colleges underperform when it comes to the average student’s return, an analysis shows.

By
Paulina Cachero
Francesca Maglione
Cedric Sam
Denise Lu
April 10, 2024

Gift this article
Almost everyone wants to go to an Ivy League school. But if you don’t get in — and most don’t — your next best option isn’t necessarily the most prestigious college that accepted you.

A Bloomberg News analysis of more than 1,500 nonprofit four-year colleges shows the return on investment at many elite private institutions outside the eight Ivies is no better than far-less selective public universities.

In fact, the typical 10-year return on investment of the so-called “Hidden Ivies” — a list of 63 top private colleges — is about 49% less than the official Ivies and 9% less than states’ most prominent universities, known as public flagships.

That’s according to ROI calculations provided by Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce, which relied on publicly available tuition and earnings data of graduates who accepted federal financial aid, meaning the analysis doesn’t include information on those who paid out of pocket.

Public Institutions Outperform Many Elite Private Colleges
The ROI at
University of Georgia

is $170,000 after 10 years. The annual cost of attendance is $27,329.

Public Public flagship Private Elite private Ivy

10
20
30
40
50
60
70
$
80
K
Annual cost of attendance
–200
–100
0
100
200
300
$
400
K
Return on investment
Median: $98,000
Lower tuition and cost of living
Higher tuition and cost of living
University of Georgia
Source: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce. Note: Cost of attendance includes the advertised price for tuition, fees, books, supplies, and the average living costs at the school. Elite private schools are from the list provided in Howard and Matthew Greene’s book The Hidden Ivies.
Historically, families have been willing to pay more for prestigious private colleges that promise to open doors to world-renowned programs, esteemed faculty and robust alumni networks. But as the cost of attendance approaches $90,000 a year at many of these elite colleges and the student debt crisis stretches past $1.6 trillion, students are finding the more expensive route isn’t always a safe bet.

For example, elite private institutions like Vassar College and Oberlin College respectively return 18% and a whopping 85% less than the median ROI of all public schools analyzed.

Public Flagships May Be a Better Bet Than Elite Private Colleges
Median ROI 10 years after enrollment
Ivy
Public flagship
Elite private
Public
Private
0
50.0K
100.0K
150.0K
200.0K
250.0K
$265.5K
148.0K
135.0K
118.0K
82.0K

Source: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce
When it comes to how much money is in a graduate’s bank account a few years out — a time when many are looking for financial freedom from parents and the ability to build wealth by saving for a house or retirement — those who pay less for school tend to hold an advantage.


Take Charles Zigliara, a now 23-year-old credit analyst at Blackstone Inc., who said he weighed three options when he was a high school senior in Atlanta applying to colleges.

The University of Georgia, a public flagship where he got scholarships to cover tuition in full.
Tulane University, a Hidden Ivy in Louisiana that offered to cover half his tuition.
Wake Forest University, another selective college in North Carolina, where he didn’t get a scholarship.
If money were no object, Zigliara said he would have chosen Wake Forest at the time. He was reluctant to give up a prestigious name. But in hindsight, he’s glad he chose the University of Georgia. He enjoyed his experience and feels like he got the same outcome he would have had he attended a “brand-name” institution. Not only did he graduate debt free, but he also got a job at Ernst & Young LLP right after graduation.

“I knew that I was going to be working hard enough and having high enough aspirations to where that brand name was not going to make or break me,” he said.

A portrait of a young man in a blue suit
Charles Zigliara, a credit analyst for Blackstone, in Miami, Florida. Photographer: Alfonso Duran/Bloomberg
Turns out, it was the right choice from an ROI perspective too — and it would have been even without a full tuition scholarship.

The average ROI before taxes at the University of Georgia is $170,000 10 years from enrollment, according to Georgetown’s CEW data. That’s 31% higher than Wake Forest’s return of $130,000 and more than five times that of Tulane’s $31,000.

University of Georgia

Tulane University of Louisiana

PUBLIC FLAGSHIP, GEORGIA
48% ACCEPTANCE
ELITE PRIVATE, LOUISIANA
11% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$170,000
$31,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$59,769
$56,999
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$14,257
$39,749
A spokesperson for Tulane said CEW’s calculation was an unfair point of comparison, noting the figure is a reflection of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina when incoming student enrollment dropped and a third of its student population was part-time adult learners at its School of Continuing Studies. A representative for Wake Forest also noted CEW’s figure was only relevant to students who accept federal aid. The majority of its students pay out of pocket, meaning they don’t rely on federal loans, grants or work-study arrangements.

Prestige Doesn’t Always Pay
Higher education has long been the golden ticket to social mobility in the US.

College graduates are more likely to secure higher paying jobs, granting them stability and a better quality of life. The reward is believed to be even sweeter for those admitted to a top school. But with a changing job market and soaring tuition costs, more people are questioning whether it’s worth as much as six figures to attend an elite institution.


Some parents have adopted an “Ivy-or-bust” mentality, placing prestige above all when thinking about college. And while the higher return on investment is notable for the Ivies — families might want to think again before handing over hundreds of thousands of dollars for the next best school.

CEW’s calculations — which examine the net present value of the typical graduate’s earnings minus the average price paid after aid packages — shows a degree from an elite private college 10 years from enrollment is worth about $135,000 compared to $265,500 at an Ivy, according to the analysis.

It’s a striking gap, especially when these universities are considered to be “the best” and “next best” schools.

More than 140 public institutions accepting the majority of applicants are able to return more than $135,000 for the typical student after 10 years. And public flagship institutions, which can be more selective, tend to do even better with a typical 10-year ROI of $148,000.

Public flagship
Median ROI: $148,000

0
$
400
K
ROI
148K
0
$
400
K
ROI
Lower
Cost of attendance
Higher
Elite private
Median ROI: $135,000

0
$
400
K
ROI
135K
0
$
400
K
ROI
Ivy
Median ROI: $265,500

0
$
400
K
ROI
266K
0
$
400
K
ROI
“If you get into an Ivy, the ROI is going to be great. But if you’re part of the 99% of students who don’t get in, regional and state flagship schools can punch above their weight and allow a strong return on investment,” said Michael Itzkowitz, founder of HEA Group and the former director of College Scorecard, the publisher of the student outcomes dataset Georgetown’s CEW used.

To be sure, the assumptions baked into CEW’s calculations provide a somewhat limited outlook on the value of a college degree. For instance, working a $10-an-hour job full time for 10 years would produce a comparable ROI of $191,000 before taxes. CEW assumes the typical student is incurring costs and not working for the first five years after enrollment, as that’s the average time it takes to graduate. So 10 years out, a school’s ROI can look significantly worse than after, say, 40 years when the cost of tuition is dwarfed by a lifetime of elevated earnings. The same logic holds when comparing expensive colleges against cheaper ones. Further out, the return can look better for a more expensive school, if it’s able to get students higher paying jobs.

A typical graduate from
University of Georgia

earns $59,769 10 years after enrollment. That’s 77% more than the typical high school graduate.

But that’s not always a guarantee. Nearly half of all college graduates find themselves working jobs that don’t require a degree a decade out of college, according to a report by the Burning Glass Institute and the Strada Education Foundation. That can be crippling for students who took on debt and were banking on higher earnings to pay off their loans. For many, the ROI of their degree could be even lower than CEW estimates as its calculations didn’t include the cost to service student loan debt and a lot of graduates are paying interest rates north of 7%.

Related: The Big Take Podcast

Listen and subscribe to The Big Take on
iHeart
Apple
Spotify
The Terminal
Caitlin McCarty transferred to New York University from Manhattan College, thinking she’d find better connections and employment opportunities at a brand-name school — even if it meant an additional $25,000 in debt by the time she graduated in 2019.

“I thought everyone knows NYU. It’s going to help me get such a great job,” she said. “And then I started applying and I was like, ‘it’s not helping.’”


Eventually she found her first full-time job as an executive assistant at a small company. But currently unemployed, she says she’s never used any of the skills she learned in college and regrets the extra money she paid for NYU.

“At the end of the day, I just don’t think it was worth it,” she said.

Compared to NYU, the average Manhattan College graduate not only pays less for a degree but commands a 9% higher salary. Manhattan College has struggled financially lately, announcing cuts to staff and programs this year. But its ROI is meaningfully higher at $180,000 10 years after enrollment, compared to NYU’s $107,000, according to CEW data.

New York University

Manhattan College

PRIVATE, NEW YORK
21% ACCEPTANCE
PRIVATE, NEW YORK
78% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$107,000
$180,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$76,040
$83,117
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$38,569
$30,215
Major Makes the Difference
When Georgetown’s CEW began to publish ROI calculations in 2019, it acknowledged the awkwardness in discussing a degree’s return on investment in the same terms as a tangible financial asset. It depends on the degree and what a graduate does with it.

Technical majors such as computer science, engineering or mathematics can serve as a direct pathway to a good job early in one’s career, translating to higher earnings right out of college. That’s why schools with more STEM majors tend to outperform other top universities when it comes to ROI figures.

Colleges With More STEM Graduates Have Higher Returns
The 10-year ROI at
University of Georgia

is $170,000 with roughly 28% of students graduating with STEM majors.

Public Public flagship Private Elite private Ivy

0
20
40
60
80
100
%
Share of students in STEM majors
–200
–100
0
100
200
300
$
400
K
Return on investment
University of Georgia
Sources: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce and IPEDS. Note: Data are not available for all schools, and schools with no STEM majors in the data are excluded.
The top four colleges with the highest ROIs, for instance, comprise a list of highly specialized schools: the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the University of Health Sciences and Pharmacy in St. Louis, the California Institute of Technology, and the Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences.

“The ROI of a degree is associated much more with major than school,” said Martin Van Der Werf, director of editorial and education policy at CEW. “A brand name can be important. But it’s important for people to decouple the school from what they want to do. They should focus on what they want to do and narrow it down from there.”

The reality is, however, many students are unsure about what they want to study in their late teens, so when picking out colleges, applicants tend to focus on reputation, rather than career outcomes.

University of Georgia

, a flagship public school, returns 36% less than the typical Ivy League institution and 26% more than elite private colleges.

For Celeste Watkins, the decision came down to a combination of prestige and financial aid. After applying to more than 25 universities, she ended up going to Franklin & Marshall College, a Hidden Ivy in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

There, she pursued a major in biology with a minor in Chinese area studies and remembers having a “dearth of information” regarding potential careers. After graduating in December 2016, she worked in customer support and retail positions before landing a job as an administrative assistant at a Chinese railcar manufacturer. But feeling her career options were limited — even after attending a premier school — she decided to pursue a master’s degree in business administration at Yale University, taking on more than $100,000 in debt to do so.

“It’s the information asymmetry that I think is driving a lot of the question of, is college worth it or not,” she said. “You simply don’t have enough of the right information to know, here is reasonably what I can expect to be doing with my life after school.”

A portrait of a young woman wearing a long cardigan and shirt with a Yale Y logo, leaning against a wall
Celeste Watkins on campus at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut. Photographer: Joe Buglewicz/Bloomberg
The curriculum at liberal arts colleges typically focuses on the humanities, arts, social sciences and natural sciences. Graduates develop in-demand soft skills such as critical thinking — which may garner renewed interest with the rise of artificial intelligence — but non-technical majors often lead to jobs with lower wages.

According to a separate 2019 CEW report, the ROI of a liberal arts education 10 years after enrollment is around $62,000, or about 40% below the median ROI of all 4,500 two- and four-year colleges CEW analyzed, which was $107,000.


Elite liberal arts colleges tend to do better. The average graduate of Franklin & Marshall has a 10-year ROI of $123,000, which the college said should increase as time goes on. Still, graduates of top schools can find the career opportunities lacking, pushing some into graduate school, which can require more debt and delay earnings even further out.

Take a school like Oberlin College. It says its graduates have earned more research doctorates than graduates of any other four-year college. But Oberlin also has the lowest ROI of the Hidden Ivies analyzed, coming in at $18,000 10 years from enrollment.

Franklin and Marshall College

Oberlin College

ELITE PRIVATE, PENNSYLVANIA
37% ACCEPTANCE
ELITE PRIVATE, OHIO
35% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$123,000
$18,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$72,227
$47,921
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$30,911
$34,777
A factor driving this is that students pay a hefty net price of $34,777 a year, compared to a median of $29,000 for all Hidden Ivies. Plus, Oberlin’s most popular major is music performance, followed by psychology. These tend to be lower-paying degrees and could explain why the median salary of Oberlin graduates 10 years from enrollment is $48,000, compared to almost $73,000 for other Hidden Ivies.

It’s a similar story at Vassar, which returns about $98,000 10 years after enrollment.

The majority of its students are enrolled in non-STEM fields, such as psychology, English and political science, pushing down the median salary of graduates. According to Vassar President Elizabeth Bradley, a considerable number of students also pursue graduate education or “competitive fellowships” right after college.

“For a substantial group of our graduates it may take longer to see earnings rise, but our data points out that it does rise,” she said.

Up for Debate
Asked about the findings, some of the schools contacted argued the return on investment of a college degree can’t be expressed as a dollar figure – alluding to intangible benefits such as student experience and a school’s academic rigor.

“It is impossible to distill the excellence of any given college into one ranking, particularly one that only looks at success in terms of dollars and cents,” said Andrea Simakis, an Oberlin spokesperson, who noted the school’s graduates are well-represented among Grammy winners and MacArthur genius fellows. “Not only does this study not capture the lifetime ROI of these individuals, it does not begin to capture the ROI to the world.”

Future earnings are just one part of an ROI, added Alan Caniglia, Franklin & Marshall’s vice president for institutional research and chief strategy officer. “The ability to do work you value, the quality of life beyond the career, and your contributions as a citizen and community member” are also important, he said. Additionally, the school provides “substantial programs to help students prepare and plan for their professional careers.”


Other schools also noted CEW’s calculations don’t take into account the location of schools and migration of students after graduation in the context of earnings. Universities in close proximity to high-paying cities like New York, for instance, are more likely to produce a higher median salary for graduates than those located in the midwest or south.

Furthermore, academics contacted by Bloomberg said that while they agree students must consider costs when picking out an institution, attending college will always be worth it.

“Whatever that right fit school is for you, that’s where you should be, independent of financial ability or ability to pay,” said Phillip Levine, an economics professor at Wellesley College. “If you have that student who should be going to a very top institution, but ends up at the community college because they think that that’s what they can afford, that’s a mistake.”

Wealth Deferred
Still, as graduates take on more debt and pay down balances for longer, many aren’t able to see the same wealth-building advantages typically associated with higher education.

A Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis report from 2019 found that while college graduates still enjoy higher salaries, the wealth premium had declined for more recent graduates, thanks in part to the rising cost of college.

Federal Student Loan Debt Has More Than Doubled Since 2010
0
0.5
1.0
$ 1.5 T
2010
'11
'12
'13
'14
'15
'16
'17
'18
'19
'20
'21
'22
2023

Source: US Education Department
“If you’re busy paying down student loan debt as opposed to putting money in a 401(k) or down towards a house, that has larger macro economic consequences,” said Ana Hernández Kent, a senior researcher at the St. Louis Fed. “Even if it’s just a few years, it’s taking graduates longer to get there. They don’t have as much time to allow those assets to appreciate.”


That seems to be the case for Ryan McMullin, a 27 year old in Washington DC, who now works at a top consulting firm.

McMullin attended the renowned Elliott School of International Affairs at George Washington University, studied for a year at the Paris Institute of Political Studies and worked as a paralegal for a law firm.

But even with his success, he wonders if he made the right choices — starting with the decision to take on $145,000 in student debt. While he earns more than the average American, he says the burden of his debt outweighs the higher paycheck he earns.

He thinks of his former high school classmates in Pennsylvania who are buying homes and starting families. With a $1,250 monthly student loan bill, McMullin says can’t even afford to live alone or buy a car. In fact, he feels trapped by his choices.

“I have genuine fears I won’t have a reasonable chance of hitting major milestones until much later in life,” he said. “I don’t think a degree, certainly not a private one, was necessary. It’s not going to help me achieve some of the things in life that really matter.”

Related tickers:
321034Z:US (Columbia University in the City of New York)
545745Z:US (Cornell University)
317595Z:US (Dartmouth College)
3252Z:US (Harvard University)
8943Z:US (Princeton University)
318542Z:US (University of Pennsylvania)
6047Z:US (Yale University)
3648655Z:US (University of Georgia)
27359MF:US (Tulane University)
854804Z:US (Wake Forest University)
321042Z:US (New York University)
51051MF:US (Manhattan College)
855080Z:US (Franklin and Marshall College)
855104Z:US (Oberlin College)
780797Z:US (Vassar College)
317611Z:US (Wellesley College)
BX:US (Blackstone Inc.)
5092Z:US (Ernst & Young LLP)
Editors:
Jennifer Bissell-Linsk
Yue Qiu
Craig Giammona
With the assistance of:
Brittany Harris
Methodology
Bloomberg’s analysis was of more than 1,500 four-year, nonprofit undergraduate colleges and universities in the US that predominantly offer Bachelor’s degrees. The data was provided by Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce (CEW), which used College Scorecard data for its calculations. The data are based on surveys of graduates who accepted federal aid during enrollment, meaning the outcomes of students who paid out of pocket are not included in the analysis.

The most recent iteration of the College Scorecard data include the 2019 and 2020 earnings of students who were enrolled in 2008-09 and 2009-10. These earnings are then adjusted to 2021 dollars and reported at the median. CEW’s calculations take into consideration College Scorecard’s data on net price and median earnings at six, eight and 10 years after initial attendance. It took averages between years 6, 8, and 10 to get earnings for years 7 and 9. And it did not take into consideration the cost to service debt associated with earning the degree. The net price figure is the cost of attendance, including room and board, minus federal and institutional aid and scholarships. The calculation also assumes students incurred costs for five years — which is the average time it takes to graduate — and didn’t start earning money until six years out from enrollment. Then, the center’s figure for the return on investment is expressed as a net present value as of 2021, in which future cash flows were given a 2% discount rate.

The analysis then categorized CEW’s data by public, public flagship, private, elite private and Ivy League institutions. It relied on data from CEW to do so for all but the elite private category. This category was derived from the list provided in Howard and Matthew Greene’s book The Hidden Ivies, which is an in-depth look at 63 colleges and universities offering a broad liberal arts education. Highly selective schools notably missing from this list, however, include the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, Harvey Mudd College, Boston University and New York University.

Salary comparison to a typical high school graduate compares the median earnings in the CEW data, which is in 2021 dollars, to the 2021 datapoint for salary of recent high school graduates from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

STEM major percentages are calculated based on data from IPEDS on first major degrees given in 2022 and the Department of Homeland Security STEM Designated Degree Program List. Some schools are not included in the data.

What’s the ROI for an academy graduate killed or wounded in the line of duty fulfilling his or hers obligation?

Not as bad as the ROTC grad who pays for his/her college education and is then killed or wounded.

“The demand for Army officers is higher than it has been in years and most of those officers will come not from West Point or other military schools but instead from the swath of colleges and universities across the country through the Reserve Officer Training Corps.” - from https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-arm ... happening/

And for the record, these young men and women, whether through ROTC or an academy, volunteer to serve. They all know the risks involved.

ROTC is scholarship based yes? And yes they all make informed decisions, no argument there. I guess the other 18 year olds who pick a different path and sign loan notes are not as informed. Got it.

[Typical Lax Dad]

If we have any Bloomberg subscribers in the forum, it would be interesting if you could cut & paste this article, or at least a list of schools & ROI.

Do they include a ROI for the service academies ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024 ... ify%20wall

The article basically argues that unless an Ivy or a small set of the very top other schools (eg MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech etc) the best ROI is found in technical degrees from major flagship publics. Better than the privates considered 'little Ivies' with a few exceptions.

Average Ivy ROI after 10 years: $265.5K
Public Flagship: $148k
Elite Private: $135K
Public: $118k
Private: $82K

There's a scatter graph which allows you to see schools, but I didn't see a way to search for a specific school other than hunt...and I didn't happen to see any service academies, though obviously that's an extremely high ROI given guaranteed zero cost!

The other comment I'd make is that if you're lucky enough to get full or close to full aid at an Ivy or close to Ivy it crushes anything else. And a flagship public is pretty super too. There's much more need based aid at Ivies and the like, but academic scholarships can be earned at the flagship publics and that could be a lot better than paying half or full boat at many small privates.

Very few colleges have a negative ROI though a few do, mostly in the arts.

I think the basic lesson is that technical degrees from decently strong technical programs (but not highly selective overall) have a pretty high base level earnings whereas with non-technical you're much better off at a major brand than lesser but selective private paying much the same top dollar. But at the very top, the best ROI is with the most selective schools, over good technical, regardless of whether primarily liberal arts. But the very most selective technical schools also have the very highest ROI.

Just don't go to less selective and do non technical...

Wealth | Big Take
If You Didn’t Get Into Dartmouth, a Public School Is the Better Investment
Many elite private colleges underperform when it comes to the average student’s return, an analysis shows.

By
Paulina Cachero
Francesca Maglione
Cedric Sam
Denise Lu
April 10, 2024

Gift this article
Almost everyone wants to go to an Ivy League school. But if you don’t get in — and most don’t — your next best option isn’t necessarily the most prestigious college that accepted you.

A Bloomberg News analysis of more than 1,500 nonprofit four-year colleges shows the return on investment at many elite private institutions outside the eight Ivies is no better than far-less selective public universities.

In fact, the typical 10-year return on investment of the so-called “Hidden Ivies” — a list of 63 top private colleges — is about 49% less than the official Ivies and 9% less than states’ most prominent universities, known as public flagships.

That’s according to ROI calculations provided by Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce, which relied on publicly available tuition and earnings data of graduates who accepted federal financial aid, meaning the analysis doesn’t include information on those who paid out of pocket.

Public Institutions Outperform Many Elite Private Colleges
The ROI at
University of Georgia

is $170,000 after 10 years. The annual cost of attendance is $27,329.

Public Public flagship Private Elite private Ivy

10
20
30
40
50
60
70
$
80
K
Annual cost of attendance
–200
–100
0
100
200
300
$
400
K
Return on investment
Median: $98,000
Lower tuition and cost of living
Higher tuition and cost of living
University of Georgia
Source: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce. Note: Cost of attendance includes the advertised price for tuition, fees, books, supplies, and the average living costs at the school. Elite private schools are from the list provided in Howard and Matthew Greene’s book The Hidden Ivies.
Historically, families have been willing to pay more for prestigious private colleges that promise to open doors to world-renowned programs, esteemed faculty and robust alumni networks. But as the cost of attendance approaches $90,000 a year at many of these elite colleges and the student debt crisis stretches past $1.6 trillion, students are finding the more expensive route isn’t always a safe bet.

For example, elite private institutions like Vassar College and Oberlin College respectively return 18% and a whopping 85% less than the median ROI of all public schools analyzed.

Public Flagships May Be a Better Bet Than Elite Private Colleges
Median ROI 10 years after enrollment
Ivy
Public flagship
Elite private
Public
Private
0
50.0K
100.0K
150.0K
200.0K
250.0K
$265.5K
148.0K
135.0K
118.0K
82.0K

Source: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce
When it comes to how much money is in a graduate’s bank account a few years out — a time when many are looking for financial freedom from parents and the ability to build wealth by saving for a house or retirement — those who pay less for school tend to hold an advantage.


Take Charles Zigliara, a now 23-year-old credit analyst at Blackstone Inc., who said he weighed three options when he was a high school senior in Atlanta applying to colleges.

The University of Georgia, a public flagship where he got scholarships to cover tuition in full.
Tulane University, a Hidden Ivy in Louisiana that offered to cover half his tuition.
Wake Forest University, another selective college in North Carolina, where he didn’t get a scholarship.
If money were no object, Zigliara said he would have chosen Wake Forest at the time. He was reluctant to give up a prestigious name. But in hindsight, he’s glad he chose the University of Georgia. He enjoyed his experience and feels like he got the same outcome he would have had he attended a “brand-name” institution. Not only did he graduate debt free, but he also got a job at Ernst & Young LLP right after graduation.

“I knew that I was going to be working hard enough and having high enough aspirations to where that brand name was not going to make or break me,” he said.

A portrait of a young man in a blue suit
Charles Zigliara, a credit analyst for Blackstone, in Miami, Florida. Photographer: Alfonso Duran/Bloomberg
Turns out, it was the right choice from an ROI perspective too — and it would have been even without a full tuition scholarship.

The average ROI before taxes at the University of Georgia is $170,000 10 years from enrollment, according to Georgetown’s CEW data. That’s 31% higher than Wake Forest’s return of $130,000 and more than five times that of Tulane’s $31,000.

University of Georgia

Tulane University of Louisiana

PUBLIC FLAGSHIP, GEORGIA
48% ACCEPTANCE
ELITE PRIVATE, LOUISIANA
11% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$170,000
$31,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$59,769
$56,999
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$14,257
$39,749
A spokesperson for Tulane said CEW’s calculation was an unfair point of comparison, noting the figure is a reflection of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina when incoming student enrollment dropped and a third of its student population was part-time adult learners at its School of Continuing Studies. A representative for Wake Forest also noted CEW’s figure was only relevant to students who accept federal aid. The majority of its students pay out of pocket, meaning they don’t rely on federal loans, grants or work-study arrangements.

Prestige Doesn’t Always Pay
Higher education has long been the golden ticket to social mobility in the US.

College graduates are more likely to secure higher paying jobs, granting them stability and a better quality of life. The reward is believed to be even sweeter for those admitted to a top school. But with a changing job market and soaring tuition costs, more people are questioning whether it’s worth as much as six figures to attend an elite institution.


Some parents have adopted an “Ivy-or-bust” mentality, placing prestige above all when thinking about college. And while the higher return on investment is notable for the Ivies — families might want to think again before handing over hundreds of thousands of dollars for the next best school.

CEW’s calculations — which examine the net present value of the typical graduate’s earnings minus the average price paid after aid packages — shows a degree from an elite private college 10 years from enrollment is worth about $135,000 compared to $265,500 at an Ivy, according to the analysis.

It’s a striking gap, especially when these universities are considered to be “the best” and “next best” schools.

More than 140 public institutions accepting the majority of applicants are able to return more than $135,000 for the typical student after 10 years. And public flagship institutions, which can be more selective, tend to do even better with a typical 10-year ROI of $148,000.

Public flagship
Median ROI: $148,000

0
$
400
K
ROI
148K
0
$
400
K
ROI
Lower
Cost of attendance
Higher
Elite private
Median ROI: $135,000

0
$
400
K
ROI
135K
0
$
400
K
ROI
Ivy
Median ROI: $265,500

0
$
400
K
ROI
266K
0
$
400
K
ROI
“If you get into an Ivy, the ROI is going to be great. But if you’re part of the 99% of students who don’t get in, regional and state flagship schools can punch above their weight and allow a strong return on investment,” said Michael Itzkowitz, founder of HEA Group and the former director of College Scorecard, the publisher of the student outcomes dataset Georgetown’s CEW used.

To be sure, the assumptions baked into CEW’s calculations provide a somewhat limited outlook on the value of a college degree. For instance, working a $10-an-hour job full time for 10 years would produce a comparable ROI of $191,000 before taxes. CEW assumes the typical student is incurring costs and not working for the first five years after enrollment, as that’s the average time it takes to graduate. So 10 years out, a school’s ROI can look significantly worse than after, say, 40 years when the cost of tuition is dwarfed by a lifetime of elevated earnings. The same logic holds when comparing expensive colleges against cheaper ones. Further out, the return can look better for a more expensive school, if it’s able to get students higher paying jobs.

A typical graduate from
University of Georgia

earns $59,769 10 years after enrollment. That’s 77% more than the typical high school graduate.

But that’s not always a guarantee. Nearly half of all college graduates find themselves working jobs that don’t require a degree a decade out of college, according to a report by the Burning Glass Institute and the Strada Education Foundation. That can be crippling for students who took on debt and were banking on higher earnings to pay off their loans. For many, the ROI of their degree could be even lower than CEW estimates as its calculations didn’t include the cost to service student loan debt and a lot of graduates are paying interest rates north of 7%.

Related: The Big Take Podcast

Listen and subscribe to The Big Take on
iHeart
Apple
Spotify
The Terminal
Caitlin McCarty transferred to New York University from Manhattan College, thinking she’d find better connections and employment opportunities at a brand-name school — even if it meant an additional $25,000 in debt by the time she graduated in 2019.

“I thought everyone knows NYU. It’s going to help me get such a great job,” she said. “And then I started applying and I was like, ‘it’s not helping.’”


Eventually she found her first full-time job as an executive assistant at a small company. But currently unemployed, she says she’s never used any of the skills she learned in college and regrets the extra money she paid for NYU.

“At the end of the day, I just don’t think it was worth it,” she said.

Compared to NYU, the average Manhattan College graduate not only pays less for a degree but commands a 9% higher salary. Manhattan College has struggled financially lately, announcing cuts to staff and programs this year. But its ROI is meaningfully higher at $180,000 10 years after enrollment, compared to NYU’s $107,000, according to CEW data.

New York University

Manhattan College

PRIVATE, NEW YORK
21% ACCEPTANCE
PRIVATE, NEW YORK
78% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$107,000
$180,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$76,040
$83,117
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$38,569
$30,215
Major Makes the Difference
When Georgetown’s CEW began to publish ROI calculations in 2019, it acknowledged the awkwardness in discussing a degree’s return on investment in the same terms as a tangible financial asset. It depends on the degree and what a graduate does with it.

Technical majors such as computer science, engineering or mathematics can serve as a direct pathway to a good job early in one’s career, translating to higher earnings right out of college. That’s why schools with more STEM majors tend to outperform other top universities when it comes to ROI figures.

Colleges With More STEM Graduates Have Higher Returns
The 10-year ROI at
University of Georgia

is $170,000 with roughly 28% of students graduating with STEM majors.

Public Public flagship Private Elite private Ivy

0
20
40
60
80
100
%
Share of students in STEM majors
–200
–100
0
100
200
300
$
400
K
Return on investment
University of Georgia
Sources: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce and IPEDS. Note: Data are not available for all schools, and schools with no STEM majors in the data are excluded.
The top four colleges with the highest ROIs, for instance, comprise a list of highly specialized schools: the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the University of Health Sciences and Pharmacy in St. Louis, the California Institute of Technology, and the Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences.

“The ROI of a degree is associated much more with major than school,” said Martin Van Der Werf, director of editorial and education policy at CEW. “A brand name can be important. But it’s important for people to decouple the school from what they want to do. They should focus on what they want to do and narrow it down from there.”

The reality is, however, many students are unsure about what they want to study in their late teens, so when picking out colleges, applicants tend to focus on reputation, rather than career outcomes.

University of Georgia

, a flagship public school, returns 36% less than the typical Ivy League institution and 26% more than elite private colleges.

For Celeste Watkins, the decision came down to a combination of prestige and financial aid. After applying to more than 25 universities, she ended up going to Franklin & Marshall College, a Hidden Ivy in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

There, she pursued a major in biology with a minor in Chinese area studies and remembers having a “dearth of information” regarding potential careers. After graduating in December 2016, she worked in customer support and retail positions before landing a job as an administrative assistant at a Chinese railcar manufacturer. But feeling her career options were limited — even after attending a premier school — she decided to pursue a master’s degree in business administration at Yale University, taking on more than $100,000 in debt to do so.

“It’s the information asymmetry that I think is driving a lot of the question of, is college worth it or not,” she said. “You simply don’t have enough of the right information to know, here is reasonably what I can expect to be doing with my life after school.”

A portrait of a young woman wearing a long cardigan and shirt with a Yale Y logo, leaning against a wall
Celeste Watkins on campus at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut. Photographer: Joe Buglewicz/Bloomberg
The curriculum at liberal arts colleges typically focuses on the humanities, arts, social sciences and natural sciences. Graduates develop in-demand soft skills such as critical thinking — which may garner renewed interest with the rise of artificial intelligence — but non-technical majors often lead to jobs with lower wages.

According to a separate 2019 CEW report, the ROI of a liberal arts education 10 years after enrollment is around $62,000, or about 40% below the median ROI of all 4,500 two- and four-year colleges CEW analyzed, which was $107,000.


Elite liberal arts colleges tend to do better. The average graduate of Franklin & Marshall has a 10-year ROI of $123,000, which the college said should increase as time goes on. Still, graduates of top schools can find the career opportunities lacking, pushing some into graduate school, which can require more debt and delay earnings even further out.

Take a school like Oberlin College. It says its graduates have earned more research doctorates than graduates of any other four-year college. But Oberlin also has the lowest ROI of the Hidden Ivies analyzed, coming in at $18,000 10 years from enrollment.

Franklin and Marshall College

Oberlin College

ELITE PRIVATE, PENNSYLVANIA
37% ACCEPTANCE
ELITE PRIVATE, OHIO
35% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$123,000
$18,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$72,227
$47,921
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$30,911
$34,777
A factor driving this is that students pay a hefty net price of $34,777 a year, compared to a median of $29,000 for all Hidden Ivies. Plus, Oberlin’s most popular major is music performance, followed by psychology. These tend to be lower-paying degrees and could explain why the median salary of Oberlin graduates 10 years from enrollment is $48,000, compared to almost $73,000 for other Hidden Ivies.

It’s a similar story at Vassar, which returns about $98,000 10 years after enrollment.

The majority of its students are enrolled in non-STEM fields, such as psychology, English and political science, pushing down the median salary of graduates. According to Vassar President Elizabeth Bradley, a considerable number of students also pursue graduate education or “competitive fellowships” right after college.

“For a substantial group of our graduates it may take longer to see earnings rise, but our data points out that it does rise,” she said.

Up for Debate
Asked about the findings, some of the schools contacted argued the return on investment of a college degree can’t be expressed as a dollar figure – alluding to intangible benefits such as student experience and a school’s academic rigor.

“It is impossible to distill the excellence of any given college into one ranking, particularly one that only looks at success in terms of dollars and cents,” said Andrea Simakis, an Oberlin spokesperson, who noted the school’s graduates are well-represented among Grammy winners and MacArthur genius fellows. “Not only does this study not capture the lifetime ROI of these individuals, it does not begin to capture the ROI to the world.”

Future earnings are just one part of an ROI, added Alan Caniglia, Franklin & Marshall’s vice president for institutional research and chief strategy officer. “The ability to do work you value, the quality of life beyond the career, and your contributions as a citizen and community member” are also important, he said. Additionally, the school provides “substantial programs to help students prepare and plan for their professional careers.”


Other schools also noted CEW’s calculations don’t take into account the location of schools and migration of students after graduation in the context of earnings. Universities in close proximity to high-paying cities like New York, for instance, are more likely to produce a higher median salary for graduates than those located in the midwest or south.

Furthermore, academics contacted by Bloomberg said that while they agree students must consider costs when picking out an institution, attending college will always be worth it.

“Whatever that right fit school is for you, that’s where you should be, independent of financial ability or ability to pay,” said Phillip Levine, an economics professor at Wellesley College. “If you have that student who should be going to a very top institution, but ends up at the community college because they think that that’s what they can afford, that’s a mistake.”

Wealth Deferred
Still, as graduates take on more debt and pay down balances for longer, many aren’t able to see the same wealth-building advantages typically associated with higher education.

A Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis report from 2019 found that while college graduates still enjoy higher salaries, the wealth premium had declined for more recent graduates, thanks in part to the rising cost of college.

Federal Student Loan Debt Has More Than Doubled Since 2010
0
0.5
1.0
$ 1.5 T
2010
'11
'12
'13
'14
'15
'16
'17
'18
'19
'20
'21
'22
2023

Source: US Education Department
“If you’re busy paying down student loan debt as opposed to putting money in a 401(k) or down towards a house, that has larger macro economic consequences,” said Ana Hernández Kent, a senior researcher at the St. Louis Fed. “Even if it’s just a few years, it’s taking graduates longer to get there. They don’t have as much time to allow those assets to appreciate.”


That seems to be the case for Ryan McMullin, a 27 year old in Washington DC, who now works at a top consulting firm.

McMullin attended the renowned Elliott School of International Affairs at George Washington University, studied for a year at the Paris Institute of Political Studies and worked as a paralegal for a law firm.

But even with his success, he wonders if he made the right choices — starting with the decision to take on $145,000 in student debt. While he earns more than the average American, he says the burden of his debt outweighs the higher paycheck he earns.

He thinks of his former high school classmates in Pennsylvania who are buying homes and starting families. With a $1,250 monthly student loan bill, McMullin says can’t even afford to live alone or buy a car. In fact, he feels trapped by his choices.

“I have genuine fears I won’t have a reasonable chance of hitting major milestones until much later in life,” he said. “I don’t think a degree, certainly not a private one, was necessary. It’s not going to help me achieve some of the things in life that really matter.”

Related tickers:
321034Z:US (Columbia University in the City of New York)
545745Z:US (Cornell University)
317595Z:US (Dartmouth College)
3252Z:US (Harvard University)
8943Z:US (Princeton University)
318542Z:US (University of Pennsylvania)
6047Z:US (Yale University)
3648655Z:US (University of Georgia)
27359MF:US (Tulane University)
854804Z:US (Wake Forest University)
321042Z:US (New York University)
51051MF:US (Manhattan College)
855080Z:US (Franklin and Marshall College)
855104Z:US (Oberlin College)
780797Z:US (Vassar College)
317611Z:US (Wellesley College)
BX:US (Blackstone Inc.)
5092Z:US (Ernst & Young LLP)
Editors:
Jennifer Bissell-Linsk
Yue Qiu
Craig Giammona
With the assistance of:
Brittany Harris
Methodology
Bloomberg’s analysis was of more than 1,500 four-year, nonprofit undergraduate colleges and universities in the US that predominantly offer Bachelor’s degrees. The data was provided by Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce (CEW), which used College Scorecard data for its calculations. The data are based on surveys of graduates who accepted federal aid during enrollment, meaning the outcomes of students who paid out of pocket are not included in the analysis.

The most recent iteration of the College Scorecard data include the 2019 and 2020 earnings of students who were enrolled in 2008-09 and 2009-10. These earnings are then adjusted to 2021 dollars and reported at the median. CEW’s calculations take into consideration College Scorecard’s data on net price and median earnings at six, eight and 10 years after initial attendance. It took averages between years 6, 8, and 10 to get earnings for years 7 and 9. And it did not take into consideration the cost to service debt associated with earning the degree. The net price figure is the cost of attendance, including room and board, minus federal and institutional aid and scholarships. The calculation also assumes students incurred costs for five years — which is the average time it takes to graduate — and didn’t start earning money until six years out from enrollment. Then, the center’s figure for the return on investment is expressed as a net present value as of 2021, in which future cash flows were given a 2% discount rate.

The analysis then categorized CEW’s data by public, public flagship, private, elite private and Ivy League institutions. It relied on data from CEW to do so for all but the elite private category. This category was derived from the list provided in Howard and Matthew Greene’s book The Hidden Ivies, which is an in-depth look at 63 colleges and universities offering a broad liberal arts education. Highly selective schools notably missing from this list, however, include the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, Harvey Mudd College, Boston University and New York University.

Salary comparison to a typical high school graduate compares the median earnings in the CEW data, which is in 2021 dollars, to the 2021 datapoint for salary of recent high school graduates from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

STEM major percentages are calculated based on data from IPEDS on first major degrees given in 2022 and the Department of Homeland Security STEM Designated Degree Program List. Some schools are not included in the data.

What’s the ROI for an academy graduate killed or wounded in the line of duty fulfilling his or hers obligation?

Not as bad as the ROTC grad who pays for his/her college education and is then killed or wounded.

“The demand for Army officers is higher than it has been in years and most of those officers will come not from West Point or other military schools but instead from the swath of colleges and universities across the country through the Reserve Officer Training Corps.” - from https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-arm ... happening/

And for the record, these young men and women, whether through ROTC or an academy, volunteer to serve. They all know the risks involved.

ROTC is scholarship based yes? And yes they all make informed decisions, no argument there. I guess the other 18 year olds who pick a different path and sign loan notes are not as informed. Got it.

No. Not in every instance.

[lagerhead]

If we have any Bloomberg subscribers in the forum, it would be interesting if you could cut & paste this article, or at least a list of schools & ROI.

Do they include a ROI for the service academies ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024 ... ify%20wall

The article basically argues that unless an Ivy or a small set of the very top other schools (eg MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech etc) the best ROI is found in technical degrees from major flagship publics. Better than the privates considered 'little Ivies' with a few exceptions.

Average Ivy ROI after 10 years: $265.5K
Public Flagship: $148k
Elite Private: $135K
Public: $118k
Private: $82K

There's a scatter graph which allows you to see schools, but I didn't see a way to search for a specific school other than hunt...and I didn't happen to see any service academies, though obviously that's an extremely high ROI given guaranteed zero cost!

The other comment I'd make is that if you're lucky enough to get full or close to full aid at an Ivy or close to Ivy it crushes anything else. And a flagship public is pretty super too. There's much more need based aid at Ivies and the like, but academic scholarships can be earned at the flagship publics and that could be a lot better than paying half or full boat at many small privates.

Very few colleges have a negative ROI though a few do, mostly in the arts.

I think the basic lesson is that technical degrees from decently strong technical programs (but not highly selective overall) have a pretty high base level earnings whereas with non-technical you're much better off at a major brand than lesser but selective private paying much the same top dollar. But at the very top, the best ROI is with the most selective schools, over good technical, regardless of whether primarily liberal arts. But the very most selective technical schools also have the very highest ROI.

Just don't go to less selective and do non technical...

Wealth | Big Take
If You Didn’t Get Into Dartmouth, a Public School Is the Better Investment
Many elite private colleges underperform when it comes to the average student’s return, an analysis shows.

By
Paulina Cachero
Francesca Maglione
Cedric Sam
Denise Lu
April 10, 2024

Gift this article
Almost everyone wants to go to an Ivy League school. But if you don’t get in — and most don’t — your next best option isn’t necessarily the most prestigious college that accepted you.

A Bloomberg News analysis of more than 1,500 nonprofit four-year colleges shows the return on investment at many elite private institutions outside the eight Ivies is no better than far-less selective public universities.

In fact, the typical 10-year return on investment of the so-called “Hidden Ivies” — a list of 63 top private colleges — is about 49% less than the official Ivies and 9% less than states’ most prominent universities, known as public flagships.

That’s according to ROI calculations provided by Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce, which relied on publicly available tuition and earnings data of graduates who accepted federal financial aid, meaning the analysis doesn’t include information on those who paid out of pocket.

Public Institutions Outperform Many Elite Private Colleges
The ROI at
University of Georgia

is $170,000 after 10 years. The annual cost of attendance is $27,329.

Public Public flagship Private Elite private Ivy

10
20
30
40
50
60
70
$
80
K
Annual cost of attendance
–200
–100
0
100
200
300
$
400
K
Return on investment
Median: $98,000
Lower tuition and cost of living
Higher tuition and cost of living
University of Georgia
Source: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce. Note: Cost of attendance includes the advertised price for tuition, fees, books, supplies, and the average living costs at the school. Elite private schools are from the list provided in Howard and Matthew Greene’s book The Hidden Ivies.
Historically, families have been willing to pay more for prestigious private colleges that promise to open doors to world-renowned programs, esteemed faculty and robust alumni networks. But as the cost of attendance approaches $90,000 a year at many of these elite colleges and the student debt crisis stretches past $1.6 trillion, students are finding the more expensive route isn’t always a safe bet.

For example, elite private institutions like Vassar College and Oberlin College respectively return 18% and a whopping 85% less than the median ROI of all public schools analyzed.

Public Flagships May Be a Better Bet Than Elite Private Colleges
Median ROI 10 years after enrollment
Ivy
Public flagship
Elite private
Public
Private
0
50.0K
100.0K
150.0K
200.0K
250.0K
$265.5K
148.0K
135.0K
118.0K
82.0K

Source: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce
When it comes to how much money is in a graduate’s bank account a few years out — a time when many are looking for financial freedom from parents and the ability to build wealth by saving for a house or retirement — those who pay less for school tend to hold an advantage.


Take Charles Zigliara, a now 23-year-old credit analyst at Blackstone Inc., who said he weighed three options when he was a high school senior in Atlanta applying to colleges.

The University of Georgia, a public flagship where he got scholarships to cover tuition in full.
Tulane University, a Hidden Ivy in Louisiana that offered to cover half his tuition.
Wake Forest University, another selective college in North Carolina, where he didn’t get a scholarship.
If money were no object, Zigliara said he would have chosen Wake Forest at the time. He was reluctant to give up a prestigious name. But in hindsight, he’s glad he chose the University of Georgia. He enjoyed his experience and feels like he got the same outcome he would have had he attended a “brand-name” institution. Not only did he graduate debt free, but he also got a job at Ernst & Young LLP right after graduation.

“I knew that I was going to be working hard enough and having high enough aspirations to where that brand name was not going to make or break me,” he said.

A portrait of a young man in a blue suit
Charles Zigliara, a credit analyst for Blackstone, in Miami, Florida. Photographer: Alfonso Duran/Bloomberg
Turns out, it was the right choice from an ROI perspective too — and it would have been even without a full tuition scholarship.

The average ROI before taxes at the University of Georgia is $170,000 10 years from enrollment, according to Georgetown’s CEW data. That’s 31% higher than Wake Forest’s return of $130,000 and more than five times that of Tulane’s $31,000.

University of Georgia

Tulane University of Louisiana

PUBLIC FLAGSHIP, GEORGIA
48% ACCEPTANCE
ELITE PRIVATE, LOUISIANA
11% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$170,000
$31,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$59,769
$56,999
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$14,257
$39,749
A spokesperson for Tulane said CEW’s calculation was an unfair point of comparison, noting the figure is a reflection of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina when incoming student enrollment dropped and a third of its student population was part-time adult learners at its School of Continuing Studies. A representative for Wake Forest also noted CEW’s figure was only relevant to students who accept federal aid. The majority of its students pay out of pocket, meaning they don’t rely on federal loans, grants or work-study arrangements.

Prestige Doesn’t Always Pay
Higher education has long been the golden ticket to social mobility in the US.

College graduates are more likely to secure higher paying jobs, granting them stability and a better quality of life. The reward is believed to be even sweeter for those admitted to a top school. But with a changing job market and soaring tuition costs, more people are questioning whether it’s worth as much as six figures to attend an elite institution.


Some parents have adopted an “Ivy-or-bust” mentality, placing prestige above all when thinking about college. And while the higher return on investment is notable for the Ivies — families might want to think again before handing over hundreds of thousands of dollars for the next best school.

CEW’s calculations — which examine the net present value of the typical graduate’s earnings minus the average price paid after aid packages — shows a degree from an elite private college 10 years from enrollment is worth about $135,000 compared to $265,500 at an Ivy, according to the analysis.

It’s a striking gap, especially when these universities are considered to be “the best” and “next best” schools.

More than 140 public institutions accepting the majority of applicants are able to return more than $135,000 for the typical student after 10 years. And public flagship institutions, which can be more selective, tend to do even better with a typical 10-year ROI of $148,000.

Public flagship
Median ROI: $148,000

0
$
400
K
ROI
148K
0
$
400
K
ROI
Lower
Cost of attendance
Higher
Elite private
Median ROI: $135,000

0
$
400
K
ROI
135K
0
$
400
K
ROI
Ivy
Median ROI: $265,500

0
$
400
K
ROI
266K
0
$
400
K
ROI
“If you get into an Ivy, the ROI is going to be great. But if you’re part of the 99% of students who don’t get in, regional and state flagship schools can punch above their weight and allow a strong return on investment,” said Michael Itzkowitz, founder of HEA Group and the former director of College Scorecard, the publisher of the student outcomes dataset Georgetown’s CEW used.

To be sure, the assumptions baked into CEW’s calculations provide a somewhat limited outlook on the value of a college degree. For instance, working a $10-an-hour job full time for 10 years would produce a comparable ROI of $191,000 before taxes. CEW assumes the typical student is incurring costs and not working for the first five years after enrollment, as that’s the average time it takes to graduate. So 10 years out, a school’s ROI can look significantly worse than after, say, 40 years when the cost of tuition is dwarfed by a lifetime of elevated earnings. The same logic holds when comparing expensive colleges against cheaper ones. Further out, the return can look better for a more expensive school, if it’s able to get students higher paying jobs.

A typical graduate from
University of Georgia

earns $59,769 10 years after enrollment. That’s 77% more than the typical high school graduate.

But that’s not always a guarantee. Nearly half of all college graduates find themselves working jobs that don’t require a degree a decade out of college, according to a report by the Burning Glass Institute and the Strada Education Foundation. That can be crippling for students who took on debt and were banking on higher earnings to pay off their loans. For many, the ROI of their degree could be even lower than CEW estimates as its calculations didn’t include the cost to service student loan debt and a lot of graduates are paying interest rates north of 7%.

Related: The Big Take Podcast

Listen and subscribe to The Big Take on
iHeart
Apple
Spotify
The Terminal
Caitlin McCarty transferred to New York University from Manhattan College, thinking she’d find better connections and employment opportunities at a brand-name school — even if it meant an additional $25,000 in debt by the time she graduated in 2019.

“I thought everyone knows NYU. It’s going to help me get such a great job,” she said. “And then I started applying and I was like, ‘it’s not helping.’”


Eventually she found her first full-time job as an executive assistant at a small company. But currently unemployed, she says she’s never used any of the skills she learned in college and regrets the extra money she paid for NYU.

“At the end of the day, I just don’t think it was worth it,” she said.

Compared to NYU, the average Manhattan College graduate not only pays less for a degree but commands a 9% higher salary. Manhattan College has struggled financially lately, announcing cuts to staff and programs this year. But its ROI is meaningfully higher at $180,000 10 years after enrollment, compared to NYU’s $107,000, according to CEW data.

New York University

Manhattan College

PRIVATE, NEW YORK
21% ACCEPTANCE
PRIVATE, NEW YORK
78% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$107,000
$180,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$76,040
$83,117
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$38,569
$30,215
Major Makes the Difference
When Georgetown’s CEW began to publish ROI calculations in 2019, it acknowledged the awkwardness in discussing a degree’s return on investment in the same terms as a tangible financial asset. It depends on the degree and what a graduate does with it.

Technical majors such as computer science, engineering or mathematics can serve as a direct pathway to a good job early in one’s career, translating to higher earnings right out of college. That’s why schools with more STEM majors tend to outperform other top universities when it comes to ROI figures.

Colleges With More STEM Graduates Have Higher Returns
The 10-year ROI at
University of Georgia

is $170,000 with roughly 28% of students graduating with STEM majors.

Public Public flagship Private Elite private Ivy

0
20
40
60
80
100
%
Share of students in STEM majors
–200
–100
0
100
200
300
$
400
K
Return on investment
University of Georgia
Sources: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce and IPEDS. Note: Data are not available for all schools, and schools with no STEM majors in the data are excluded.
The top four colleges with the highest ROIs, for instance, comprise a list of highly specialized schools: the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the University of Health Sciences and Pharmacy in St. Louis, the California Institute of Technology, and the Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences.

“The ROI of a degree is associated much more with major than school,” said Martin Van Der Werf, director of editorial and education policy at CEW. “A brand name can be important. But it’s important for people to decouple the school from what they want to do. They should focus on what they want to do and narrow it down from there.”

The reality is, however, many students are unsure about what they want to study in their late teens, so when picking out colleges, applicants tend to focus on reputation, rather than career outcomes.

University of Georgia

, a flagship public school, returns 36% less than the typical Ivy League institution and 26% more than elite private colleges.

For Celeste Watkins, the decision came down to a combination of prestige and financial aid. After applying to more than 25 universities, she ended up going to Franklin & Marshall College, a Hidden Ivy in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

There, she pursued a major in biology with a minor in Chinese area studies and remembers having a “dearth of information” regarding potential careers. After graduating in December 2016, she worked in customer support and retail positions before landing a job as an administrative assistant at a Chinese railcar manufacturer. But feeling her career options were limited — even after attending a premier school — she decided to pursue a master’s degree in business administration at Yale University, taking on more than $100,000 in debt to do so.

“It’s the information asymmetry that I think is driving a lot of the question of, is college worth it or not,” she said. “You simply don’t have enough of the right information to know, here is reasonably what I can expect to be doing with my life after school.”

A portrait of a young woman wearing a long cardigan and shirt with a Yale Y logo, leaning against a wall
Celeste Watkins on campus at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut. Photographer: Joe Buglewicz/Bloomberg
The curriculum at liberal arts colleges typically focuses on the humanities, arts, social sciences and natural sciences. Graduates develop in-demand soft skills such as critical thinking — which may garner renewed interest with the rise of artificial intelligence — but non-technical majors often lead to jobs with lower wages.

According to a separate 2019 CEW report, the ROI of a liberal arts education 10 years after enrollment is around $62,000, or about 40% below the median ROI of all 4,500 two- and four-year colleges CEW analyzed, which was $107,000.


Elite liberal arts colleges tend to do better. The average graduate of Franklin & Marshall has a 10-year ROI of $123,000, which the college said should increase as time goes on. Still, graduates of top schools can find the career opportunities lacking, pushing some into graduate school, which can require more debt and delay earnings even further out.

Take a school like Oberlin College. It says its graduates have earned more research doctorates than graduates of any other four-year college. But Oberlin also has the lowest ROI of the Hidden Ivies analyzed, coming in at $18,000 10 years from enrollment.

Franklin and Marshall College

Oberlin College

ELITE PRIVATE, PENNSYLVANIA
37% ACCEPTANCE
ELITE PRIVATE, OHIO
35% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$123,000
$18,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$72,227
$47,921
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$30,911
$34,777
A factor driving this is that students pay a hefty net price of $34,777 a year, compared to a median of $29,000 for all Hidden Ivies. Plus, Oberlin’s most popular major is music performance, followed by psychology. These tend to be lower-paying degrees and could explain why the median salary of Oberlin graduates 10 years from enrollment is $48,000, compared to almost $73,000 for other Hidden Ivies.

It’s a similar story at Vassar, which returns about $98,000 10 years after enrollment.

The majority of its students are enrolled in non-STEM fields, such as psychology, English and political science, pushing down the median salary of graduates. According to Vassar President Elizabeth Bradley, a considerable number of students also pursue graduate education or “competitive fellowships” right after college.

“For a substantial group of our graduates it may take longer to see earnings rise, but our data points out that it does rise,” she said.

Up for Debate
Asked about the findings, some of the schools contacted argued the return on investment of a college degree can’t be expressed as a dollar figure – alluding to intangible benefits such as student experience and a school’s academic rigor.

“It is impossible to distill the excellence of any given college into one ranking, particularly one that only looks at success in terms of dollars and cents,” said Andrea Simakis, an Oberlin spokesperson, who noted the school’s graduates are well-represented among Grammy winners and MacArthur genius fellows. “Not only does this study not capture the lifetime ROI of these individuals, it does not begin to capture the ROI to the world.”

Future earnings are just one part of an ROI, added Alan Caniglia, Franklin & Marshall’s vice president for institutional research and chief strategy officer. “The ability to do work you value, the quality of life beyond the career, and your contributions as a citizen and community member” are also important, he said. Additionally, the school provides “substantial programs to help students prepare and plan for their professional careers.”


Other schools also noted CEW’s calculations don’t take into account the location of schools and migration of students after graduation in the context of earnings. Universities in close proximity to high-paying cities like New York, for instance, are more likely to produce a higher median salary for graduates than those located in the midwest or south.

Furthermore, academics contacted by Bloomberg said that while they agree students must consider costs when picking out an institution, attending college will always be worth it.

“Whatever that right fit school is for you, that’s where you should be, independent of financial ability or ability to pay,” said Phillip Levine, an economics professor at Wellesley College. “If you have that student who should be going to a very top institution, but ends up at the community college because they think that that’s what they can afford, that’s a mistake.”

Wealth Deferred
Still, as graduates take on more debt and pay down balances for longer, many aren’t able to see the same wealth-building advantages typically associated with higher education.

A Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis report from 2019 found that while college graduates still enjoy higher salaries, the wealth premium had declined for more recent graduates, thanks in part to the rising cost of college.

Federal Student Loan Debt Has More Than Doubled Since 2010
0
0.5
1.0
$ 1.5 T
2010
'11
'12
'13
'14
'15
'16
'17
'18
'19
'20
'21
'22
2023

Source: US Education Department
“If you’re busy paying down student loan debt as opposed to putting money in a 401(k) or down towards a house, that has larger macro economic consequences,” said Ana Hernández Kent, a senior researcher at the St. Louis Fed. “Even if it’s just a few years, it’s taking graduates longer to get there. They don’t have as much time to allow those assets to appreciate.”


That seems to be the case for Ryan McMullin, a 27 year old in Washington DC, who now works at a top consulting firm.

McMullin attended the renowned Elliott School of International Affairs at George Washington University, studied for a year at the Paris Institute of Political Studies and worked as a paralegal for a law firm.

But even with his success, he wonders if he made the right choices — starting with the decision to take on $145,000 in student debt. While he earns more than the average American, he says the burden of his debt outweighs the higher paycheck he earns.

He thinks of his former high school classmates in Pennsylvania who are buying homes and starting families. With a $1,250 monthly student loan bill, McMullin says can’t even afford to live alone or buy a car. In fact, he feels trapped by his choices.

“I have genuine fears I won’t have a reasonable chance of hitting major milestones until much later in life,” he said. “I don’t think a degree, certainly not a private one, was necessary. It’s not going to help me achieve some of the things in life that really matter.”

Related tickers:
321034Z:US (Columbia University in the City of New York)
545745Z:US (Cornell University)
317595Z:US (Dartmouth College)
3252Z:US (Harvard University)
8943Z:US (Princeton University)
318542Z:US (University of Pennsylvania)
6047Z:US (Yale University)
3648655Z:US (University of Georgia)
27359MF:US (Tulane University)
854804Z:US (Wake Forest University)
321042Z:US (New York University)
51051MF:US (Manhattan College)
855080Z:US (Franklin and Marshall College)
855104Z:US (Oberlin College)
780797Z:US (Vassar College)
317611Z:US (Wellesley College)
BX:US (Blackstone Inc.)
5092Z:US (Ernst & Young LLP)
Editors:
Jennifer Bissell-Linsk
Yue Qiu
Craig Giammona
With the assistance of:
Brittany Harris
Methodology
Bloomberg’s analysis was of more than 1,500 four-year, nonprofit undergraduate colleges and universities in the US that predominantly offer Bachelor’s degrees. The data was provided by Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce (CEW), which used College Scorecard data for its calculations. The data are based on surveys of graduates who accepted federal aid during enrollment, meaning the outcomes of students who paid out of pocket are not included in the analysis.

The most recent iteration of the College Scorecard data include the 2019 and 2020 earnings of students who were enrolled in 2008-09 and 2009-10. These earnings are then adjusted to 2021 dollars and reported at the median. CEW’s calculations take into consideration College Scorecard’s data on net price and median earnings at six, eight and 10 years after initial attendance. It took averages between years 6, 8, and 10 to get earnings for years 7 and 9. And it did not take into consideration the cost to service debt associated with earning the degree. The net price figure is the cost of attendance, including room and board, minus federal and institutional aid and scholarships. The calculation also assumes students incurred costs for five years — which is the average time it takes to graduate — and didn’t start earning money until six years out from enrollment. Then, the center’s figure for the return on investment is expressed as a net present value as of 2021, in which future cash flows were given a 2% discount rate.

The analysis then categorized CEW’s data by public, public flagship, private, elite private and Ivy League institutions. It relied on data from CEW to do so for all but the elite private category. This category was derived from the list provided in Howard and Matthew Greene’s book The Hidden Ivies, which is an in-depth look at 63 colleges and universities offering a broad liberal arts education. Highly selective schools notably missing from this list, however, include the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, Harvey Mudd College, Boston University and New York University.

Salary comparison to a typical high school graduate compares the median earnings in the CEW data, which is in 2021 dollars, to the 2021 datapoint for salary of recent high school graduates from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

STEM major percentages are calculated based on data from IPEDS on first major degrees given in 2022 and the Department of Homeland Security STEM Designated Degree Program List. Some schools are not included in the data.

What’s the ROI for an academy graduate killed or wounded in the line of duty fulfilling his or hers obligation?

Not as bad as the ROTC grad who pays for his/her college education and is then killed or wounded.

“The demand for Army officers is higher than it has been in years and most of those officers will come not from West Point or other military schools but instead from the swath of colleges and universities across the country through the Reserve Officer Training Corps.” - from https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-arm ... happening/

And for the record, these young men and women, whether through ROTC or an academy, volunteer to serve. They all know the risks involved.

ROTC is scholarship based yes? And yes they all make informed decisions, no argument there. I guess the other 18 year olds who pick a different path and sign loan notes are not as informed. Got it.

No. Not in every instance.

Students can participate in ROTC without a scholarship and will receive the ROTC stipend benefits during their junior and senior year once contracted.

Enrolling in the ROTC Basic Course (the first two years of college) does NOT obligate you to serve unless you have also received a scholarship.

[MDlaxfan76]

If we have any Bloomberg subscribers in the forum, it would be interesting if you could cut & paste this article, or at least a list of schools & ROI.

Do they include a ROI for the service academies ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024 ... ify%20wall

The article basically argues that unless an Ivy or a small set of the very top other schools (eg MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech etc) the best ROI is found in technical degrees from major flagship publics. Better than the privates considered 'little Ivies' with a few exceptions.

Average Ivy ROI after 10 years: $265.5K
Public Flagship: $148k
Elite Private: $135K
Public: $118k
Private: $82K

There's a scatter graph which allows you to see schools, but I didn't see a way to search for a specific school other than hunt...and I didn't happen to see any service academies, though obviously that's an extremely high ROI given guaranteed zero cost!

The other comment I'd make is that if you're lucky enough to get full or close to full aid at an Ivy or close to Ivy it crushes anything else. And a flagship public is pretty super too. There's much more need based aid at Ivies and the like, but academic scholarships can be earned at the flagship publics and that could be a lot better than paying half or full boat at many small privates.

Very few colleges have a negative ROI though a few do, mostly in the arts.

I think the basic lesson is that technical degrees from decently strong technical programs (but not highly selective overall) have a pretty high base level earnings whereas with non-technical you're much better off at a major brand than lesser but selective private paying much the same top dollar. But at the very top, the best ROI is with the most selective schools, over good technical, regardless of whether primarily liberal arts. But the very most selective technical schools also have the very highest ROI.

Just don't go to less selective and do non technical...

Wealth | Big Take
If You Didn’t Get Into Dartmouth, a Public School Is the Better Investment
Many elite private colleges underperform when it comes to the average student’s return, an analysis shows.

By
Paulina Cachero
Francesca Maglione
Cedric Sam
Denise Lu
April 10, 2024

Gift this article
Almost everyone wants to go to an Ivy League school. But if you don’t get in — and most don’t — your next best option isn’t necessarily the most prestigious college that accepted you.

A Bloomberg News analysis of more than 1,500 nonprofit four-year colleges shows the return on investment at many elite private institutions outside the eight Ivies is no better than far-less selective public universities.

In fact, the typical 10-year return on investment of the so-called “Hidden Ivies” — a list of 63 top private colleges — is about 49% less than the official Ivies and 9% less than states’ most prominent universities, known as public flagships.

That’s according to ROI calculations provided by Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce, which relied on publicly available tuition and earnings data of graduates who accepted federal financial aid, meaning the analysis doesn’t include information on those who paid out of pocket.

Public Institutions Outperform Many Elite Private Colleges
The ROI at
University of Georgia

is $170,000 after 10 years. The annual cost of attendance is $27,329.

Public Public flagship Private Elite private Ivy

10
20
30
40
50
60
70
$
80
K
Annual cost of attendance
–200
–100
0
100
200
300
$
400
K
Return on investment
Median: $98,000
Lower tuition and cost of living
Higher tuition and cost of living
University of Georgia
Source: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce. Note: Cost of attendance includes the advertised price for tuition, fees, books, supplies, and the average living costs at the school. Elite private schools are from the list provided in Howard and Matthew Greene’s book The Hidden Ivies.
Historically, families have been willing to pay more for prestigious private colleges that promise to open doors to world-renowned programs, esteemed faculty and robust alumni networks. But as the cost of attendance approaches $90,000 a year at many of these elite colleges and the student debt crisis stretches past $1.6 trillion, students are finding the more expensive route isn’t always a safe bet.

For example, elite private institutions like Vassar College and Oberlin College respectively return 18% and a whopping 85% less than the median ROI of all public schools analyzed.

Public Flagships May Be a Better Bet Than Elite Private Colleges
Median ROI 10 years after enrollment
Ivy
Public flagship
Elite private
Public
Private
0
50.0K
100.0K
150.0K
200.0K
250.0K
$265.5K
148.0K
135.0K
118.0K
82.0K

Source: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce
When it comes to how much money is in a graduate’s bank account a few years out — a time when many are looking for financial freedom from parents and the ability to build wealth by saving for a house or retirement — those who pay less for school tend to hold an advantage.


Take Charles Zigliara, a now 23-year-old credit analyst at Blackstone Inc., who said he weighed three options when he was a high school senior in Atlanta applying to colleges.

The University of Georgia, a public flagship where he got scholarships to cover tuition in full.
Tulane University, a Hidden Ivy in Louisiana that offered to cover half his tuition.
Wake Forest University, another selective college in North Carolina, where he didn’t get a scholarship.
If money were no object, Zigliara said he would have chosen Wake Forest at the time. He was reluctant to give up a prestigious name. But in hindsight, he’s glad he chose the University of Georgia. He enjoyed his experience and feels like he got the same outcome he would have had he attended a “brand-name” institution. Not only did he graduate debt free, but he also got a job at Ernst & Young LLP right after graduation.

“I knew that I was going to be working hard enough and having high enough aspirations to where that brand name was not going to make or break me,” he said.

A portrait of a young man in a blue suit
Charles Zigliara, a credit analyst for Blackstone, in Miami, Florida. Photographer: Alfonso Duran/Bloomberg
Turns out, it was the right choice from an ROI perspective too — and it would have been even without a full tuition scholarship.

The average ROI before taxes at the University of Georgia is $170,000 10 years from enrollment, according to Georgetown’s CEW data. That’s 31% higher than Wake Forest’s return of $130,000 and more than five times that of Tulane’s $31,000.

University of Georgia

Tulane University of Louisiana

PUBLIC FLAGSHIP, GEORGIA
48% ACCEPTANCE
ELITE PRIVATE, LOUISIANA
11% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$170,000
$31,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$59,769
$56,999
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$14,257
$39,749
A spokesperson for Tulane said CEW’s calculation was an unfair point of comparison, noting the figure is a reflection of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina when incoming student enrollment dropped and a third of its student population was part-time adult learners at its School of Continuing Studies. A representative for Wake Forest also noted CEW’s figure was only relevant to students who accept federal aid. The majority of its students pay out of pocket, meaning they don’t rely on federal loans, grants or work-study arrangements.

Prestige Doesn’t Always Pay
Higher education has long been the golden ticket to social mobility in the US.

College graduates are more likely to secure higher paying jobs, granting them stability and a better quality of life. The reward is believed to be even sweeter for those admitted to a top school. But with a changing job market and soaring tuition costs, more people are questioning whether it’s worth as much as six figures to attend an elite institution.


Some parents have adopted an “Ivy-or-bust” mentality, placing prestige above all when thinking about college. And while the higher return on investment is notable for the Ivies — families might want to think again before handing over hundreds of thousands of dollars for the next best school.

CEW’s calculations — which examine the net present value of the typical graduate’s earnings minus the average price paid after aid packages — shows a degree from an elite private college 10 years from enrollment is worth about $135,000 compared to $265,500 at an Ivy, according to the analysis.

It’s a striking gap, especially when these universities are considered to be “the best” and “next best” schools.

More than 140 public institutions accepting the majority of applicants are able to return more than $135,000 for the typical student after 10 years. And public flagship institutions, which can be more selective, tend to do even better with a typical 10-year ROI of $148,000.

Public flagship
Median ROI: $148,000

0
$
400
K
ROI
148K
0
$
400
K
ROI
Lower
Cost of attendance
Higher
Elite private
Median ROI: $135,000

0
$
400
K
ROI
135K
0
$
400
K
ROI
Ivy
Median ROI: $265,500

0
$
400
K
ROI
266K
0
$
400
K
ROI
“If you get into an Ivy, the ROI is going to be great. But if you’re part of the 99% of students who don’t get in, regional and state flagship schools can punch above their weight and allow a strong return on investment,” said Michael Itzkowitz, founder of HEA Group and the former director of College Scorecard, the publisher of the student outcomes dataset Georgetown’s CEW used.

To be sure, the assumptions baked into CEW’s calculations provide a somewhat limited outlook on the value of a college degree. For instance, working a $10-an-hour job full time for 10 years would produce a comparable ROI of $191,000 before taxes. CEW assumes the typical student is incurring costs and not working for the first five years after enrollment, as that’s the average time it takes to graduate. So 10 years out, a school’s ROI can look significantly worse than after, say, 40 years when the cost of tuition is dwarfed by a lifetime of elevated earnings. The same logic holds when comparing expensive colleges against cheaper ones. Further out, the return can look better for a more expensive school, if it’s able to get students higher paying jobs.

A typical graduate from
University of Georgia

earns $59,769 10 years after enrollment. That’s 77% more than the typical high school graduate.

But that’s not always a guarantee. Nearly half of all college graduates find themselves working jobs that don’t require a degree a decade out of college, according to a report by the Burning Glass Institute and the Strada Education Foundation. That can be crippling for students who took on debt and were banking on higher earnings to pay off their loans. For many, the ROI of their degree could be even lower than CEW estimates as its calculations didn’t include the cost to service student loan debt and a lot of graduates are paying interest rates north of 7%.

Related: The Big Take Podcast

Listen and subscribe to The Big Take on
iHeart
Apple
Spotify
The Terminal
Caitlin McCarty transferred to New York University from Manhattan College, thinking she’d find better connections and employment opportunities at a brand-name school — even if it meant an additional $25,000 in debt by the time she graduated in 2019.

“I thought everyone knows NYU. It’s going to help me get such a great job,” she said. “And then I started applying and I was like, ‘it’s not helping.’”


Eventually she found her first full-time job as an executive assistant at a small company. But currently unemployed, she says she’s never used any of the skills she learned in college and regrets the extra money she paid for NYU.

“At the end of the day, I just don’t think it was worth it,” she said.

Compared to NYU, the average Manhattan College graduate not only pays less for a degree but commands a 9% higher salary. Manhattan College has struggled financially lately, announcing cuts to staff and programs this year. But its ROI is meaningfully higher at $180,000 10 years after enrollment, compared to NYU’s $107,000, according to CEW data.

New York University

Manhattan College

PRIVATE, NEW YORK
21% ACCEPTANCE
PRIVATE, NEW YORK
78% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$107,000
$180,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$76,040
$83,117
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$38,569
$30,215
Major Makes the Difference
When Georgetown’s CEW began to publish ROI calculations in 2019, it acknowledged the awkwardness in discussing a degree’s return on investment in the same terms as a tangible financial asset. It depends on the degree and what a graduate does with it.

Technical majors such as computer science, engineering or mathematics can serve as a direct pathway to a good job early in one’s career, translating to higher earnings right out of college. That’s why schools with more STEM majors tend to outperform other top universities when it comes to ROI figures.

Colleges With More STEM Graduates Have Higher Returns
The 10-year ROI at
University of Georgia

is $170,000 with roughly 28% of students graduating with STEM majors.

Public Public flagship Private Elite private Ivy

0
20
40
60
80
100
%
Share of students in STEM majors
–200
–100
0
100
200
300
$
400
K
Return on investment
University of Georgia
Sources: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce and IPEDS. Note: Data are not available for all schools, and schools with no STEM majors in the data are excluded.
The top four colleges with the highest ROIs, for instance, comprise a list of highly specialized schools: the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the University of Health Sciences and Pharmacy in St. Louis, the California Institute of Technology, and the Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences.

“The ROI of a degree is associated much more with major than school,” said Martin Van Der Werf, director of editorial and education policy at CEW. “A brand name can be important. But it’s important for people to decouple the school from what they want to do. They should focus on what they want to do and narrow it down from there.”

The reality is, however, many students are unsure about what they want to study in their late teens, so when picking out colleges, applicants tend to focus on reputation, rather than career outcomes.

University of Georgia

, a flagship public school, returns 36% less than the typical Ivy League institution and 26% more than elite private colleges.

For Celeste Watkins, the decision came down to a combination of prestige and financial aid. After applying to more than 25 universities, she ended up going to Franklin & Marshall College, a Hidden Ivy in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

There, she pursued a major in biology with a minor in Chinese area studies and remembers having a “dearth of information” regarding potential careers. After graduating in December 2016, she worked in customer support and retail positions before landing a job as an administrative assistant at a Chinese railcar manufacturer. But feeling her career options were limited — even after attending a premier school — she decided to pursue a master’s degree in business administration at Yale University, taking on more than $100,000 in debt to do so.

“It’s the information asymmetry that I think is driving a lot of the question of, is college worth it or not,” she said. “You simply don’t have enough of the right information to know, here is reasonably what I can expect to be doing with my life after school.”

A portrait of a young woman wearing a long cardigan and shirt with a Yale Y logo, leaning against a wall
Celeste Watkins on campus at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut. Photographer: Joe Buglewicz/Bloomberg
The curriculum at liberal arts colleges typically focuses on the humanities, arts, social sciences and natural sciences. Graduates develop in-demand soft skills such as critical thinking — which may garner renewed interest with the rise of artificial intelligence — but non-technical majors often lead to jobs with lower wages.

According to a separate 2019 CEW report, the ROI of a liberal arts education 10 years after enrollment is around $62,000, or about 40% below the median ROI of all 4,500 two- and four-year colleges CEW analyzed, which was $107,000.


Elite liberal arts colleges tend to do better. The average graduate of Franklin & Marshall has a 10-year ROI of $123,000, which the college said should increase as time goes on. Still, graduates of top schools can find the career opportunities lacking, pushing some into graduate school, which can require more debt and delay earnings even further out.

Take a school like Oberlin College. It says its graduates have earned more research doctorates than graduates of any other four-year college. But Oberlin also has the lowest ROI of the Hidden Ivies analyzed, coming in at $18,000 10 years from enrollment.

Franklin and Marshall College

Oberlin College

ELITE PRIVATE, PENNSYLVANIA
37% ACCEPTANCE
ELITE PRIVATE, OHIO
35% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$123,000
$18,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$72,227
$47,921
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$30,911
$34,777
A factor driving this is that students pay a hefty net price of $34,777 a year, compared to a median of $29,000 for all Hidden Ivies. Plus, Oberlin’s most popular major is music performance, followed by psychology. These tend to be lower-paying degrees and could explain why the median salary of Oberlin graduates 10 years from enrollment is $48,000, compared to almost $73,000 for other Hidden Ivies.

It’s a similar story at Vassar, which returns about $98,000 10 years after enrollment.

The majority of its students are enrolled in non-STEM fields, such as psychology, English and political science, pushing down the median salary of graduates. According to Vassar President Elizabeth Bradley, a considerable number of students also pursue graduate education or “competitive fellowships” right after college.

“For a substantial group of our graduates it may take longer to see earnings rise, but our data points out that it does rise,” she said.

Up for Debate
Asked about the findings, some of the schools contacted argued the return on investment of a college degree can’t be expressed as a dollar figure – alluding to intangible benefits such as student experience and a school’s academic rigor.

“It is impossible to distill the excellence of any given college into one ranking, particularly one that only looks at success in terms of dollars and cents,” said Andrea Simakis, an Oberlin spokesperson, who noted the school’s graduates are well-represented among Grammy winners and MacArthur genius fellows. “Not only does this study not capture the lifetime ROI of these individuals, it does not begin to capture the ROI to the world.”

Future earnings are just one part of an ROI, added Alan Caniglia, Franklin & Marshall’s vice president for institutional research and chief strategy officer. “The ability to do work you value, the quality of life beyond the career, and your contributions as a citizen and community member” are also important, he said. Additionally, the school provides “substantial programs to help students prepare and plan for their professional careers.”


Other schools also noted CEW’s calculations don’t take into account the location of schools and migration of students after graduation in the context of earnings. Universities in close proximity to high-paying cities like New York, for instance, are more likely to produce a higher median salary for graduates than those located in the midwest or south.

Furthermore, academics contacted by Bloomberg said that while they agree students must consider costs when picking out an institution, attending college will always be worth it.

“Whatever that right fit school is for you, that’s where you should be, independent of financial ability or ability to pay,” said Phillip Levine, an economics professor at Wellesley College. “If you have that student who should be going to a very top institution, but ends up at the community college because they think that that’s what they can afford, that’s a mistake.”

Wealth Deferred
Still, as graduates take on more debt and pay down balances for longer, many aren’t able to see the same wealth-building advantages typically associated with higher education.

A Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis report from 2019 found that while college graduates still enjoy higher salaries, the wealth premium had declined for more recent graduates, thanks in part to the rising cost of college.

Federal Student Loan Debt Has More Than Doubled Since 2010
0
0.5
1.0
$ 1.5 T
2010
'11
'12
'13
'14
'15
'16
'17
'18
'19
'20
'21
'22
2023

Source: US Education Department
“If you’re busy paying down student loan debt as opposed to putting money in a 401(k) or down towards a house, that has larger macro economic consequences,” said Ana Hernández Kent, a senior researcher at the St. Louis Fed. “Even if it’s just a few years, it’s taking graduates longer to get there. They don’t have as much time to allow those assets to appreciate.”


That seems to be the case for Ryan McMullin, a 27 year old in Washington DC, who now works at a top consulting firm.

McMullin attended the renowned Elliott School of International Affairs at George Washington University, studied for a year at the Paris Institute of Political Studies and worked as a paralegal for a law firm.

But even with his success, he wonders if he made the right choices — starting with the decision to take on $145,000 in student debt. While he earns more than the average American, he says the burden of his debt outweighs the higher paycheck he earns.

He thinks of his former high school classmates in Pennsylvania who are buying homes and starting families. With a $1,250 monthly student loan bill, McMullin says can’t even afford to live alone or buy a car. In fact, he feels trapped by his choices.

“I have genuine fears I won’t have a reasonable chance of hitting major milestones until much later in life,” he said. “I don’t think a degree, certainly not a private one, was necessary. It’s not going to help me achieve some of the things in life that really matter.”

Related tickers:
321034Z:US (Columbia University in the City of New York)
545745Z:US (Cornell University)
317595Z:US (Dartmouth College)
3252Z:US (Harvard University)
8943Z:US (Princeton University)
318542Z:US (University of Pennsylvania)
6047Z:US (Yale University)
3648655Z:US (University of Georgia)
27359MF:US (Tulane University)
854804Z:US (Wake Forest University)
321042Z:US (New York University)
51051MF:US (Manhattan College)
855080Z:US (Franklin and Marshall College)
855104Z:US (Oberlin College)
780797Z:US (Vassar College)
317611Z:US (Wellesley College)
BX:US (Blackstone Inc.)
5092Z:US (Ernst & Young LLP)
Editors:
Jennifer Bissell-Linsk
Yue Qiu
Craig Giammona
With the assistance of:
Brittany Harris
Methodology
Bloomberg’s analysis was of more than 1,500 four-year, nonprofit undergraduate colleges and universities in the US that predominantly offer Bachelor’s degrees. The data was provided by Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce (CEW), which used College Scorecard data for its calculations. The data are based on surveys of graduates who accepted federal aid during enrollment, meaning the outcomes of students who paid out of pocket are not included in the analysis.

The most recent iteration of the College Scorecard data include the 2019 and 2020 earnings of students who were enrolled in 2008-09 and 2009-10. These earnings are then adjusted to 2021 dollars and reported at the median. CEW’s calculations take into consideration College Scorecard’s data on net price and median earnings at six, eight and 10 years after initial attendance. It took averages between years 6, 8, and 10 to get earnings for years 7 and 9. And it did not take into consideration the cost to service debt associated with earning the degree. The net price figure is the cost of attendance, including room and board, minus federal and institutional aid and scholarships. The calculation also assumes students incurred costs for five years — which is the average time it takes to graduate — and didn’t start earning money until six years out from enrollment. Then, the center’s figure for the return on investment is expressed as a net present value as of 2021, in which future cash flows were given a 2% discount rate.

The analysis then categorized CEW’s data by public, public flagship, private, elite private and Ivy League institutions. It relied on data from CEW to do so for all but the elite private category. This category was derived from the list provided in Howard and Matthew Greene’s book The Hidden Ivies, which is an in-depth look at 63 colleges and universities offering a broad liberal arts education. Highly selective schools notably missing from this list, however, include the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, Harvey Mudd College, Boston University and New York University.

Salary comparison to a typical high school graduate compares the median earnings in the CEW data, which is in 2021 dollars, to the 2021 datapoint for salary of recent high school graduates from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

STEM major percentages are calculated based on data from IPEDS on first major degrees given in 2022 and the Department of Homeland Security STEM Designated Degree Program List. Some schools are not included in the data.

What’s the ROI for an academy graduate killed or wounded in the line of duty fulfilling his or hers obligation?

Better than my example of the UNC lax captain serving as a SEAL officer in Africa if such. He/his family paid for UNC out of state. OCS volunteer post college. Both awful if occur.

[lagerhead]

If we have any Bloomberg subscribers in the forum, it would be interesting if you could cut & paste this article, or at least a list of schools & ROI.

Do they include a ROI for the service academies ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024 ... ify%20wall

The article basically argues that unless an Ivy or a small set of the very top other schools (eg MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech etc) the best ROI is found in technical degrees from major flagship publics. Better than the privates considered 'little Ivies' with a few exceptions.

Average Ivy ROI after 10 years: $265.5K
Public Flagship: $148k
Elite Private: $135K
Public: $118k
Private: $82K

There's a scatter graph which allows you to see schools, but I didn't see a way to search for a specific school other than hunt...and I didn't happen to see any service academies, though obviously that's an extremely high ROI given guaranteed zero cost!

The other comment I'd make is that if you're lucky enough to get full or close to full aid at an Ivy or close to Ivy it crushes anything else. And a flagship public is pretty super too. There's much more need based aid at Ivies and the like, but academic scholarships can be earned at the flagship publics and that could be a lot better than paying half or full boat at many small privates.

Very few colleges have a negative ROI though a few do, mostly in the arts.

I think the basic lesson is that technical degrees from decently strong technical programs (but not highly selective overall) have a pretty high base level earnings whereas with non-technical you're much better off at a major brand than lesser but selective private paying much the same top dollar. But at the very top, the best ROI is with the most selective schools, over good technical, regardless of whether primarily liberal arts. But the very most selective technical schools also have the very highest ROI.

Just don't go to less selective and do non technical...

Wealth | Big Take
If You Didn’t Get Into Dartmouth, a Public School Is the Better Investment
Many elite private colleges underperform when it comes to the average student’s return, an analysis shows.

By
Paulina Cachero
Francesca Maglione
Cedric Sam
Denise Lu
April 10, 2024

Gift this article
Almost everyone wants to go to an Ivy League school. But if you don’t get in — and most don’t — your next best option isn’t necessarily the most prestigious college that accepted you.

A Bloomberg News analysis of more than 1,500 nonprofit four-year colleges shows the return on investment at many elite private institutions outside the eight Ivies is no better than far-less selective public universities.

In fact, the typical 10-year return on investment of the so-called “Hidden Ivies” — a list of 63 top private colleges — is about 49% less than the official Ivies and 9% less than states’ most prominent universities, known as public flagships.

That’s according to ROI calculations provided by Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce, which relied on publicly available tuition and earnings data of graduates who accepted federal financial aid, meaning the analysis doesn’t include information on those who paid out of pocket.

Public Institutions Outperform Many Elite Private Colleges
The ROI at
University of Georgia

is $170,000 after 10 years. The annual cost of attendance is $27,329.

Public Public flagship Private Elite private Ivy

10
20
30
40
50
60
70
$
80
K
Annual cost of attendance
–200
–100
0
100
200
300
$
400
K
Return on investment
Median: $98,000
Lower tuition and cost of living
Higher tuition and cost of living
University of Georgia
Source: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce. Note: Cost of attendance includes the advertised price for tuition, fees, books, supplies, and the average living costs at the school. Elite private schools are from the list provided in Howard and Matthew Greene’s book The Hidden Ivies.
Historically, families have been willing to pay more for prestigious private colleges that promise to open doors to world-renowned programs, esteemed faculty and robust alumni networks. But as the cost of attendance approaches $90,000 a year at many of these elite colleges and the student debt crisis stretches past $1.6 trillion, students are finding the more expensive route isn’t always a safe bet.

For example, elite private institutions like Vassar College and Oberlin College respectively return 18% and a whopping 85% less than the median ROI of all public schools analyzed.

Public Flagships May Be a Better Bet Than Elite Private Colleges
Median ROI 10 years after enrollment
Ivy
Public flagship
Elite private
Public
Private
0
50.0K
100.0K
150.0K
200.0K
250.0K
$265.5K
148.0K
135.0K
118.0K
82.0K

Source: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce
When it comes to how much money is in a graduate’s bank account a few years out — a time when many are looking for financial freedom from parents and the ability to build wealth by saving for a house or retirement — those who pay less for school tend to hold an advantage.


Take Charles Zigliara, a now 23-year-old credit analyst at Blackstone Inc., who said he weighed three options when he was a high school senior in Atlanta applying to colleges.

The University of Georgia, a public flagship where he got scholarships to cover tuition in full.
Tulane University, a Hidden Ivy in Louisiana that offered to cover half his tuition.
Wake Forest University, another selective college in North Carolina, where he didn’t get a scholarship.
If money were no object, Zigliara said he would have chosen Wake Forest at the time. He was reluctant to give up a prestigious name. But in hindsight, he’s glad he chose the University of Georgia. He enjoyed his experience and feels like he got the same outcome he would have had he attended a “brand-name” institution. Not only did he graduate debt free, but he also got a job at Ernst & Young LLP right after graduation.

“I knew that I was going to be working hard enough and having high enough aspirations to where that brand name was not going to make or break me,” he said.

A portrait of a young man in a blue suit
Charles Zigliara, a credit analyst for Blackstone, in Miami, Florida. Photographer: Alfonso Duran/Bloomberg
Turns out, it was the right choice from an ROI perspective too — and it would have been even without a full tuition scholarship.

The average ROI before taxes at the University of Georgia is $170,000 10 years from enrollment, according to Georgetown’s CEW data. That’s 31% higher than Wake Forest’s return of $130,000 and more than five times that of Tulane’s $31,000.

University of Georgia

Tulane University of Louisiana

PUBLIC FLAGSHIP, GEORGIA
48% ACCEPTANCE
ELITE PRIVATE, LOUISIANA
11% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$170,000
$31,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$59,769
$56,999
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$14,257
$39,749
A spokesperson for Tulane said CEW’s calculation was an unfair point of comparison, noting the figure is a reflection of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina when incoming student enrollment dropped and a third of its student population was part-time adult learners at its School of Continuing Studies. A representative for Wake Forest also noted CEW’s figure was only relevant to students who accept federal aid. The majority of its students pay out of pocket, meaning they don’t rely on federal loans, grants or work-study arrangements.

Prestige Doesn’t Always Pay
Higher education has long been the golden ticket to social mobility in the US.

College graduates are more likely to secure higher paying jobs, granting them stability and a better quality of life. The reward is believed to be even sweeter for those admitted to a top school. But with a changing job market and soaring tuition costs, more people are questioning whether it’s worth as much as six figures to attend an elite institution.


Some parents have adopted an “Ivy-or-bust” mentality, placing prestige above all when thinking about college. And while the higher return on investment is notable for the Ivies — families might want to think again before handing over hundreds of thousands of dollars for the next best school.

CEW’s calculations — which examine the net present value of the typical graduate’s earnings minus the average price paid after aid packages — shows a degree from an elite private college 10 years from enrollment is worth about $135,000 compared to $265,500 at an Ivy, according to the analysis.

It’s a striking gap, especially when these universities are considered to be “the best” and “next best” schools.

More than 140 public institutions accepting the majority of applicants are able to return more than $135,000 for the typical student after 10 years. And public flagship institutions, which can be more selective, tend to do even better with a typical 10-year ROI of $148,000.

Public flagship
Median ROI: $148,000

0
$
400
K
ROI
148K
0
$
400
K
ROI
Lower
Cost of attendance
Higher
Elite private
Median ROI: $135,000

0
$
400
K
ROI
135K
0
$
400
K
ROI
Ivy
Median ROI: $265,500

0
$
400
K
ROI
266K
0
$
400
K
ROI
“If you get into an Ivy, the ROI is going to be great. But if you’re part of the 99% of students who don’t get in, regional and state flagship schools can punch above their weight and allow a strong return on investment,” said Michael Itzkowitz, founder of HEA Group and the former director of College Scorecard, the publisher of the student outcomes dataset Georgetown’s CEW used.

To be sure, the assumptions baked into CEW’s calculations provide a somewhat limited outlook on the value of a college degree. For instance, working a $10-an-hour job full time for 10 years would produce a comparable ROI of $191,000 before taxes. CEW assumes the typical student is incurring costs and not working for the first five years after enrollment, as that’s the average time it takes to graduate. So 10 years out, a school’s ROI can look significantly worse than after, say, 40 years when the cost of tuition is dwarfed by a lifetime of elevated earnings. The same logic holds when comparing expensive colleges against cheaper ones. Further out, the return can look better for a more expensive school, if it’s able to get students higher paying jobs.

A typical graduate from
University of Georgia

earns $59,769 10 years after enrollment. That’s 77% more than the typical high school graduate.

But that’s not always a guarantee. Nearly half of all college graduates find themselves working jobs that don’t require a degree a decade out of college, according to a report by the Burning Glass Institute and the Strada Education Foundation. That can be crippling for students who took on debt and were banking on higher earnings to pay off their loans. For many, the ROI of their degree could be even lower than CEW estimates as its calculations didn’t include the cost to service student loan debt and a lot of graduates are paying interest rates north of 7%.

Related: The Big Take Podcast

Listen and subscribe to The Big Take on
iHeart
Apple
Spotify
The Terminal
Caitlin McCarty transferred to New York University from Manhattan College, thinking she’d find better connections and employment opportunities at a brand-name school — even if it meant an additional $25,000 in debt by the time she graduated in 2019.

“I thought everyone knows NYU. It’s going to help me get such a great job,” she said. “And then I started applying and I was like, ‘it’s not helping.’”


Eventually she found her first full-time job as an executive assistant at a small company. But currently unemployed, she says she’s never used any of the skills she learned in college and regrets the extra money she paid for NYU.

“At the end of the day, I just don’t think it was worth it,” she said.

Compared to NYU, the average Manhattan College graduate not only pays less for a degree but commands a 9% higher salary. Manhattan College has struggled financially lately, announcing cuts to staff and programs this year. But its ROI is meaningfully higher at $180,000 10 years after enrollment, compared to NYU’s $107,000, according to CEW data.

New York University

Manhattan College

PRIVATE, NEW YORK
21% ACCEPTANCE
PRIVATE, NEW YORK
78% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$107,000
$180,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$76,040
$83,117
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$38,569
$30,215
Major Makes the Difference
When Georgetown’s CEW began to publish ROI calculations in 2019, it acknowledged the awkwardness in discussing a degree’s return on investment in the same terms as a tangible financial asset. It depends on the degree and what a graduate does with it.

Technical majors such as computer science, engineering or mathematics can serve as a direct pathway to a good job early in one’s career, translating to higher earnings right out of college. That’s why schools with more STEM majors tend to outperform other top universities when it comes to ROI figures.

Colleges With More STEM Graduates Have Higher Returns
The 10-year ROI at
University of Georgia

is $170,000 with roughly 28% of students graduating with STEM majors.

Public Public flagship Private Elite private Ivy

0
20
40
60
80
100
%
Share of students in STEM majors
–200
–100
0
100
200
300
$
400
K
Return on investment
University of Georgia
Sources: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce and IPEDS. Note: Data are not available for all schools, and schools with no STEM majors in the data are excluded.
The top four colleges with the highest ROIs, for instance, comprise a list of highly specialized schools: the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the University of Health Sciences and Pharmacy in St. Louis, the California Institute of Technology, and the Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences.

“The ROI of a degree is associated much more with major than school,” said Martin Van Der Werf, director of editorial and education policy at CEW. “A brand name can be important. But it’s important for people to decouple the school from what they want to do. They should focus on what they want to do and narrow it down from there.”

The reality is, however, many students are unsure about what they want to study in their late teens, so when picking out colleges, applicants tend to focus on reputation, rather than career outcomes.

University of Georgia

, a flagship public school, returns 36% less than the typical Ivy League institution and 26% more than elite private colleges.

For Celeste Watkins, the decision came down to a combination of prestige and financial aid. After applying to more than 25 universities, she ended up going to Franklin & Marshall College, a Hidden Ivy in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

There, she pursued a major in biology with a minor in Chinese area studies and remembers having a “dearth of information” regarding potential careers. After graduating in December 2016, she worked in customer support and retail positions before landing a job as an administrative assistant at a Chinese railcar manufacturer. But feeling her career options were limited — even after attending a premier school — she decided to pursue a master’s degree in business administration at Yale University, taking on more than $100,000 in debt to do so.

“It’s the information asymmetry that I think is driving a lot of the question of, is college worth it or not,” she said. “You simply don’t have enough of the right information to know, here is reasonably what I can expect to be doing with my life after school.”

A portrait of a young woman wearing a long cardigan and shirt with a Yale Y logo, leaning against a wall
Celeste Watkins on campus at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut. Photographer: Joe Buglewicz/Bloomberg
The curriculum at liberal arts colleges typically focuses on the humanities, arts, social sciences and natural sciences. Graduates develop in-demand soft skills such as critical thinking — which may garner renewed interest with the rise of artificial intelligence — but non-technical majors often lead to jobs with lower wages.

According to a separate 2019 CEW report, the ROI of a liberal arts education 10 years after enrollment is around $62,000, or about 40% below the median ROI of all 4,500 two- and four-year colleges CEW analyzed, which was $107,000.


Elite liberal arts colleges tend to do better. The average graduate of Franklin & Marshall has a 10-year ROI of $123,000, which the college said should increase as time goes on. Still, graduates of top schools can find the career opportunities lacking, pushing some into graduate school, which can require more debt and delay earnings even further out.

Take a school like Oberlin College. It says its graduates have earned more research doctorates than graduates of any other four-year college. But Oberlin also has the lowest ROI of the Hidden Ivies analyzed, coming in at $18,000 10 years from enrollment.

Franklin and Marshall College

Oberlin College

ELITE PRIVATE, PENNSYLVANIA
37% ACCEPTANCE
ELITE PRIVATE, OHIO
35% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$123,000
$18,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$72,227
$47,921
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$30,911
$34,777
A factor driving this is that students pay a hefty net price of $34,777 a year, compared to a median of $29,000 for all Hidden Ivies. Plus, Oberlin’s most popular major is music performance, followed by psychology. These tend to be lower-paying degrees and could explain why the median salary of Oberlin graduates 10 years from enrollment is $48,000, compared to almost $73,000 for other Hidden Ivies.

It’s a similar story at Vassar, which returns about $98,000 10 years after enrollment.

The majority of its students are enrolled in non-STEM fields, such as psychology, English and political science, pushing down the median salary of graduates. According to Vassar President Elizabeth Bradley, a considerable number of students also pursue graduate education or “competitive fellowships” right after college.

“For a substantial group of our graduates it may take longer to see earnings rise, but our data points out that it does rise,” she said.

Up for Debate
Asked about the findings, some of the schools contacted argued the return on investment of a college degree can’t be expressed as a dollar figure – alluding to intangible benefits such as student experience and a school’s academic rigor.

“It is impossible to distill the excellence of any given college into one ranking, particularly one that only looks at success in terms of dollars and cents,” said Andrea Simakis, an Oberlin spokesperson, who noted the school’s graduates are well-represented among Grammy winners and MacArthur genius fellows. “Not only does this study not capture the lifetime ROI of these individuals, it does not begin to capture the ROI to the world.”

Future earnings are just one part of an ROI, added Alan Caniglia, Franklin & Marshall’s vice president for institutional research and chief strategy officer. “The ability to do work you value, the quality of life beyond the career, and your contributions as a citizen and community member” are also important, he said. Additionally, the school provides “substantial programs to help students prepare and plan for their professional careers.”


Other schools also noted CEW’s calculations don’t take into account the location of schools and migration of students after graduation in the context of earnings. Universities in close proximity to high-paying cities like New York, for instance, are more likely to produce a higher median salary for graduates than those located in the midwest or south.

Furthermore, academics contacted by Bloomberg said that while they agree students must consider costs when picking out an institution, attending college will always be worth it.

“Whatever that right fit school is for you, that’s where you should be, independent of financial ability or ability to pay,” said Phillip Levine, an economics professor at Wellesley College. “If you have that student who should be going to a very top institution, but ends up at the community college because they think that that’s what they can afford, that’s a mistake.”

Wealth Deferred
Still, as graduates take on more debt and pay down balances for longer, many aren’t able to see the same wealth-building advantages typically associated with higher education.

A Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis report from 2019 found that while college graduates still enjoy higher salaries, the wealth premium had declined for more recent graduates, thanks in part to the rising cost of college.

Federal Student Loan Debt Has More Than Doubled Since 2010
0
0.5
1.0
$ 1.5 T
2010
'11
'12
'13
'14
'15
'16
'17
'18
'19
'20
'21
'22
2023

Source: US Education Department
“If you’re busy paying down student loan debt as opposed to putting money in a 401(k) or down towards a house, that has larger macro economic consequences,” said Ana Hernández Kent, a senior researcher at the St. Louis Fed. “Even if it’s just a few years, it’s taking graduates longer to get there. They don’t have as much time to allow those assets to appreciate.”


That seems to be the case for Ryan McMullin, a 27 year old in Washington DC, who now works at a top consulting firm.

McMullin attended the renowned Elliott School of International Affairs at George Washington University, studied for a year at the Paris Institute of Political Studies and worked as a paralegal for a law firm.

But even with his success, he wonders if he made the right choices — starting with the decision to take on $145,000 in student debt. While he earns more than the average American, he says the burden of his debt outweighs the higher paycheck he earns.

He thinks of his former high school classmates in Pennsylvania who are buying homes and starting families. With a $1,250 monthly student loan bill, McMullin says can’t even afford to live alone or buy a car. In fact, he feels trapped by his choices.

“I have genuine fears I won’t have a reasonable chance of hitting major milestones until much later in life,” he said. “I don’t think a degree, certainly not a private one, was necessary. It’s not going to help me achieve some of the things in life that really matter.”

Related tickers:
321034Z:US (Columbia University in the City of New York)
545745Z:US (Cornell University)
317595Z:US (Dartmouth College)
3252Z:US (Harvard University)
8943Z:US (Princeton University)
318542Z:US (University of Pennsylvania)
6047Z:US (Yale University)
3648655Z:US (University of Georgia)
27359MF:US (Tulane University)
854804Z:US (Wake Forest University)
321042Z:US (New York University)
51051MF:US (Manhattan College)
855080Z:US (Franklin and Marshall College)
855104Z:US (Oberlin College)
780797Z:US (Vassar College)
317611Z:US (Wellesley College)
BX:US (Blackstone Inc.)
5092Z:US (Ernst & Young LLP)
Editors:
Jennifer Bissell-Linsk
Yue Qiu
Craig Giammona
With the assistance of:
Brittany Harris
Methodology
Bloomberg’s analysis was of more than 1,500 four-year, nonprofit undergraduate colleges and universities in the US that predominantly offer Bachelor’s degrees. The data was provided by Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce (CEW), which used College Scorecard data for its calculations. The data are based on surveys of graduates who accepted federal aid during enrollment, meaning the outcomes of students who paid out of pocket are not included in the analysis.

The most recent iteration of the College Scorecard data include the 2019 and 2020 earnings of students who were enrolled in 2008-09 and 2009-10. These earnings are then adjusted to 2021 dollars and reported at the median. CEW’s calculations take into consideration College Scorecard’s data on net price and median earnings at six, eight and 10 years after initial attendance. It took averages between years 6, 8, and 10 to get earnings for years 7 and 9. And it did not take into consideration the cost to service debt associated with earning the degree. The net price figure is the cost of attendance, including room and board, minus federal and institutional aid and scholarships. The calculation also assumes students incurred costs for five years — which is the average time it takes to graduate — and didn’t start earning money until six years out from enrollment. Then, the center’s figure for the return on investment is expressed as a net present value as of 2021, in which future cash flows were given a 2% discount rate.

The analysis then categorized CEW’s data by public, public flagship, private, elite private and Ivy League institutions. It relied on data from CEW to do so for all but the elite private category. This category was derived from the list provided in Howard and Matthew Greene’s book The Hidden Ivies, which is an in-depth look at 63 colleges and universities offering a broad liberal arts education. Highly selective schools notably missing from this list, however, include the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, Harvey Mudd College, Boston University and New York University.

Salary comparison to a typical high school graduate compares the median earnings in the CEW data, which is in 2021 dollars, to the 2021 datapoint for salary of recent high school graduates from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

STEM major percentages are calculated based on data from IPEDS on first major degrees given in 2022 and the Department of Homeland Security STEM Designated Degree Program List. Some schools are not included in the data.

What’s the ROI for an academy graduate killed or wounded in the line of duty fulfilling his or hers obligation?

Better than my example of the UNC lax captain serving as a SEAL officer in Africa if such. He/his family paid for UNC out of state. OCS volunteer post college. Both awful if occur.

Not better than these brothers.

https://essexnewsdaily.com/sports/sport ... d-by-state

https://navy.togetherweserved.com/usn/s ... &ID=379265

[old salt]

They can also retire after 20 years either voluntarily or not and plug right into what was once labeled the Military Industrial Complex And get a big boost in pay.

Defense contractors can do math. They know what you were making after taxes & in most cases, offer parity, unless you can bring them new "work" immediately.

You can't really retire solely on a military pension, especially if you have a mortgage & still have kids at home or going to college. It is a helpful safety net while you transition to a second career.

[MDlaxfan76]

If we have any Bloomberg subscribers in the forum, it would be interesting if you could cut & paste this article, or at least a list of schools & ROI.

Do they include a ROI for the service academies ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024 ... ify%20wall

The article basically argues that unless an Ivy or a small set of the very top other schools (eg MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech etc) the best ROI is found in technical degrees from major flagship publics. Better than the privates considered 'little Ivies' with a few exceptions.

Average Ivy ROI after 10 years: $265.5K
Public Flagship: $148k
Elite Private: $135K
Public: $118k
Private: $82K

There's a scatter graph which allows you to see schools, but I didn't see a way to search for a specific school other than hunt...and I didn't happen to see any service academies, though obviously that's an extremely high ROI given guaranteed zero cost!

The other comment I'd make is that if you're lucky enough to get full or close to full aid at an Ivy or close to Ivy it crushes anything else. And a flagship public is pretty super too. There's much more need based aid at Ivies and the like, but academic scholarships can be earned at the flagship publics and that could be a lot better than paying half or full boat at many small privates.

Very few colleges have a negative ROI though a few do, mostly in the arts.

I think the basic lesson is that technical degrees from decently strong technical programs (but not highly selective overall) have a pretty high base level earnings whereas with non-technical you're much better off at a major brand than lesser but selective private paying much the same top dollar. But at the very top, the best ROI is with the most selective schools, over good technical, regardless of whether primarily liberal arts. But the very most selective technical schools also have the very highest ROI.

Just don't go to less selective and do non technical...

Wealth | Big Take
If You Didn’t Get Into Dartmouth, a Public School Is the Better Investment
Many elite private colleges underperform when it comes to the average student’s return, an analysis shows.

By
Paulina Cachero
Francesca Maglione
Cedric Sam
Denise Lu
April 10, 2024

Gift this article
Almost everyone wants to go to an Ivy League school. But if you don’t get in — and most don’t — your next best option isn’t necessarily the most prestigious college that accepted you.

A Bloomberg News analysis of more than 1,500 nonprofit four-year colleges shows the return on investment at many elite private institutions outside the eight Ivies is no better than far-less selective public universities.

In fact, the typical 10-year return on investment of the so-called “Hidden Ivies” — a list of 63 top private colleges — is about 49% less than the official Ivies and 9% less than states’ most prominent universities, known as public flagships.

That’s according to ROI calculations provided by Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce, which relied on publicly available tuition and earnings data of graduates who accepted federal financial aid, meaning the analysis doesn’t include information on those who paid out of pocket.

Public Institutions Outperform Many Elite Private Colleges
The ROI at
University of Georgia

is $170,000 after 10 years. The annual cost of attendance is $27,329.

Public Public flagship Private Elite private Ivy

10
20
30
40
50
60
70
$
80
K
Annual cost of attendance
–200
–100
0
100
200
300
$
400
K
Return on investment
Median: $98,000
Lower tuition and cost of living
Higher tuition and cost of living
University of Georgia
Source: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce. Note: Cost of attendance includes the advertised price for tuition, fees, books, supplies, and the average living costs at the school. Elite private schools are from the list provided in Howard and Matthew Greene’s book The Hidden Ivies.
Historically, families have been willing to pay more for prestigious private colleges that promise to open doors to world-renowned programs, esteemed faculty and robust alumni networks. But as the cost of attendance approaches $90,000 a year at many of these elite colleges and the student debt crisis stretches past $1.6 trillion, students are finding the more expensive route isn’t always a safe bet.

For example, elite private institutions like Vassar College and Oberlin College respectively return 18% and a whopping 85% less than the median ROI of all public schools analyzed.

Public Flagships May Be a Better Bet Than Elite Private Colleges
Median ROI 10 years after enrollment
Ivy
Public flagship
Elite private
Public
Private
0
50.0K
100.0K
150.0K
200.0K
250.0K
$265.5K
148.0K
135.0K
118.0K
82.0K

Source: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce
When it comes to how much money is in a graduate’s bank account a few years out — a time when many are looking for financial freedom from parents and the ability to build wealth by saving for a house or retirement — those who pay less for school tend to hold an advantage.


Take Charles Zigliara, a now 23-year-old credit analyst at Blackstone Inc., who said he weighed three options when he was a high school senior in Atlanta applying to colleges.

The University of Georgia, a public flagship where he got scholarships to cover tuition in full.
Tulane University, a Hidden Ivy in Louisiana that offered to cover half his tuition.
Wake Forest University, another selective college in North Carolina, where he didn’t get a scholarship.
If money were no object, Zigliara said he would have chosen Wake Forest at the time. He was reluctant to give up a prestigious name. But in hindsight, he’s glad he chose the University of Georgia. He enjoyed his experience and feels like he got the same outcome he would have had he attended a “brand-name” institution. Not only did he graduate debt free, but he also got a job at Ernst & Young LLP right after graduation.

“I knew that I was going to be working hard enough and having high enough aspirations to where that brand name was not going to make or break me,” he said.

A portrait of a young man in a blue suit
Charles Zigliara, a credit analyst for Blackstone, in Miami, Florida. Photographer: Alfonso Duran/Bloomberg
Turns out, it was the right choice from an ROI perspective too — and it would have been even without a full tuition scholarship.

The average ROI before taxes at the University of Georgia is $170,000 10 years from enrollment, according to Georgetown’s CEW data. That’s 31% higher than Wake Forest’s return of $130,000 and more than five times that of Tulane’s $31,000.

University of Georgia

Tulane University of Louisiana

PUBLIC FLAGSHIP, GEORGIA
48% ACCEPTANCE
ELITE PRIVATE, LOUISIANA
11% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$170,000
$31,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$59,769
$56,999
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$14,257
$39,749
A spokesperson for Tulane said CEW’s calculation was an unfair point of comparison, noting the figure is a reflection of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina when incoming student enrollment dropped and a third of its student population was part-time adult learners at its School of Continuing Studies. A representative for Wake Forest also noted CEW’s figure was only relevant to students who accept federal aid. The majority of its students pay out of pocket, meaning they don’t rely on federal loans, grants or work-study arrangements.

Prestige Doesn’t Always Pay
Higher education has long been the golden ticket to social mobility in the US.

College graduates are more likely to secure higher paying jobs, granting them stability and a better quality of life. The reward is believed to be even sweeter for those admitted to a top school. But with a changing job market and soaring tuition costs, more people are questioning whether it’s worth as much as six figures to attend an elite institution.


Some parents have adopted an “Ivy-or-bust” mentality, placing prestige above all when thinking about college. And while the higher return on investment is notable for the Ivies — families might want to think again before handing over hundreds of thousands of dollars for the next best school.

CEW’s calculations — which examine the net present value of the typical graduate’s earnings minus the average price paid after aid packages — shows a degree from an elite private college 10 years from enrollment is worth about $135,000 compared to $265,500 at an Ivy, according to the analysis.

It’s a striking gap, especially when these universities are considered to be “the best” and “next best” schools.

More than 140 public institutions accepting the majority of applicants are able to return more than $135,000 for the typical student after 10 years. And public flagship institutions, which can be more selective, tend to do even better with a typical 10-year ROI of $148,000.

Public flagship
Median ROI: $148,000

0
$
400
K
ROI
148K
0
$
400
K
ROI
Lower
Cost of attendance
Higher
Elite private
Median ROI: $135,000

0
$
400
K
ROI
135K
0
$
400
K
ROI
Ivy
Median ROI: $265,500

0
$
400
K
ROI
266K
0
$
400
K
ROI
“If you get into an Ivy, the ROI is going to be great. But if you’re part of the 99% of students who don’t get in, regional and state flagship schools can punch above their weight and allow a strong return on investment,” said Michael Itzkowitz, founder of HEA Group and the former director of College Scorecard, the publisher of the student outcomes dataset Georgetown’s CEW used.

To be sure, the assumptions baked into CEW’s calculations provide a somewhat limited outlook on the value of a college degree. For instance, working a $10-an-hour job full time for 10 years would produce a comparable ROI of $191,000 before taxes. CEW assumes the typical student is incurring costs and not working for the first five years after enrollment, as that’s the average time it takes to graduate. So 10 years out, a school’s ROI can look significantly worse than after, say, 40 years when the cost of tuition is dwarfed by a lifetime of elevated earnings. The same logic holds when comparing expensive colleges against cheaper ones. Further out, the return can look better for a more expensive school, if it’s able to get students higher paying jobs.

A typical graduate from
University of Georgia

earns $59,769 10 years after enrollment. That’s 77% more than the typical high school graduate.

But that’s not always a guarantee. Nearly half of all college graduates find themselves working jobs that don’t require a degree a decade out of college, according to a report by the Burning Glass Institute and the Strada Education Foundation. That can be crippling for students who took on debt and were banking on higher earnings to pay off their loans. For many, the ROI of their degree could be even lower than CEW estimates as its calculations didn’t include the cost to service student loan debt and a lot of graduates are paying interest rates north of 7%.

Related: The Big Take Podcast

Listen and subscribe to The Big Take on
iHeart
Apple
Spotify
The Terminal
Caitlin McCarty transferred to New York University from Manhattan College, thinking she’d find better connections and employment opportunities at a brand-name school — even if it meant an additional $25,000 in debt by the time she graduated in 2019.

“I thought everyone knows NYU. It’s going to help me get such a great job,” she said. “And then I started applying and I was like, ‘it’s not helping.’”


Eventually she found her first full-time job as an executive assistant at a small company. But currently unemployed, she says she’s never used any of the skills she learned in college and regrets the extra money she paid for NYU.

“At the end of the day, I just don’t think it was worth it,” she said.

Compared to NYU, the average Manhattan College graduate not only pays less for a degree but commands a 9% higher salary. Manhattan College has struggled financially lately, announcing cuts to staff and programs this year. But its ROI is meaningfully higher at $180,000 10 years after enrollment, compared to NYU’s $107,000, according to CEW data.

New York University

Manhattan College

PRIVATE, NEW YORK
21% ACCEPTANCE
PRIVATE, NEW YORK
78% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$107,000
$180,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$76,040
$83,117
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$38,569
$30,215
Major Makes the Difference
When Georgetown’s CEW began to publish ROI calculations in 2019, it acknowledged the awkwardness in discussing a degree’s return on investment in the same terms as a tangible financial asset. It depends on the degree and what a graduate does with it.

Technical majors such as computer science, engineering or mathematics can serve as a direct pathway to a good job early in one’s career, translating to higher earnings right out of college. That’s why schools with more STEM majors tend to outperform other top universities when it comes to ROI figures.

Colleges With More STEM Graduates Have Higher Returns
The 10-year ROI at
University of Georgia

is $170,000 with roughly 28% of students graduating with STEM majors.

Public Public flagship Private Elite private Ivy

0
20
40
60
80
100
%
Share of students in STEM majors
–200
–100
0
100
200
300
$
400
K
Return on investment
University of Georgia
Sources: Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce and IPEDS. Note: Data are not available for all schools, and schools with no STEM majors in the data are excluded.
The top four colleges with the highest ROIs, for instance, comprise a list of highly specialized schools: the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the University of Health Sciences and Pharmacy in St. Louis, the California Institute of Technology, and the Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences.

“The ROI of a degree is associated much more with major than school,” said Martin Van Der Werf, director of editorial and education policy at CEW. “A brand name can be important. But it’s important for people to decouple the school from what they want to do. They should focus on what they want to do and narrow it down from there.”

The reality is, however, many students are unsure about what they want to study in their late teens, so when picking out colleges, applicants tend to focus on reputation, rather than career outcomes.

University of Georgia

, a flagship public school, returns 36% less than the typical Ivy League institution and 26% more than elite private colleges.

For Celeste Watkins, the decision came down to a combination of prestige and financial aid. After applying to more than 25 universities, she ended up going to Franklin & Marshall College, a Hidden Ivy in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

There, she pursued a major in biology with a minor in Chinese area studies and remembers having a “dearth of information” regarding potential careers. After graduating in December 2016, she worked in customer support and retail positions before landing a job as an administrative assistant at a Chinese railcar manufacturer. But feeling her career options were limited — even after attending a premier school — she decided to pursue a master’s degree in business administration at Yale University, taking on more than $100,000 in debt to do so.

“It’s the information asymmetry that I think is driving a lot of the question of, is college worth it or not,” she said. “You simply don’t have enough of the right information to know, here is reasonably what I can expect to be doing with my life after school.”

A portrait of a young woman wearing a long cardigan and shirt with a Yale Y logo, leaning against a wall
Celeste Watkins on campus at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut. Photographer: Joe Buglewicz/Bloomberg
The curriculum at liberal arts colleges typically focuses on the humanities, arts, social sciences and natural sciences. Graduates develop in-demand soft skills such as critical thinking — which may garner renewed interest with the rise of artificial intelligence — but non-technical majors often lead to jobs with lower wages.

According to a separate 2019 CEW report, the ROI of a liberal arts education 10 years after enrollment is around $62,000, or about 40% below the median ROI of all 4,500 two- and four-year colleges CEW analyzed, which was $107,000.


Elite liberal arts colleges tend to do better. The average graduate of Franklin & Marshall has a 10-year ROI of $123,000, which the college said should increase as time goes on. Still, graduates of top schools can find the career opportunities lacking, pushing some into graduate school, which can require more debt and delay earnings even further out.

Take a school like Oberlin College. It says its graduates have earned more research doctorates than graduates of any other four-year college. But Oberlin also has the lowest ROI of the Hidden Ivies analyzed, coming in at $18,000 10 years from enrollment.

Franklin and Marshall College

Oberlin College

ELITE PRIVATE, PENNSYLVANIA
37% ACCEPTANCE
ELITE PRIVATE, OHIO
35% ACCEPTANCE
10-YEAR RETURN ON INVESTMENT
$123,000
$18,000
MEDIAN EARNINGS At 10 years after enrollment
$72,227
$47,921
NET PRICE Average cost of attendance minus financial aid
$30,911
$34,777
A factor driving this is that students pay a hefty net price of $34,777 a year, compared to a median of $29,000 for all Hidden Ivies. Plus, Oberlin’s most popular major is music performance, followed by psychology. These tend to be lower-paying degrees and could explain why the median salary of Oberlin graduates 10 years from enrollment is $48,000, compared to almost $73,000 for other Hidden Ivies.

It’s a similar story at Vassar, which returns about $98,000 10 years after enrollment.

The majority of its students are enrolled in non-STEM fields, such as psychology, English and political science, pushing down the median salary of graduates. According to Vassar President Elizabeth Bradley, a considerable number of students also pursue graduate education or “competitive fellowships” right after college.

“For a substantial group of our graduates it may take longer to see earnings rise, but our data points out that it does rise,” she said.

Up for Debate
Asked about the findings, some of the schools contacted argued the return on investment of a college degree can’t be expressed as a dollar figure – alluding to intangible benefits such as student experience and a school’s academic rigor.

“It is impossible to distill the excellence of any given college into one ranking, particularly one that only looks at success in terms of dollars and cents,” said Andrea Simakis, an Oberlin spokesperson, who noted the school’s graduates are well-represented among Grammy winners and MacArthur genius fellows. “Not only does this study not capture the lifetime ROI of these individuals, it does not begin to capture the ROI to the world.”

Future earnings are just one part of an ROI, added Alan Caniglia, Franklin & Marshall’s vice president for institutional research and chief strategy officer. “The ability to do work you value, the quality of life beyond the career, and your contributions as a citizen and community member” are also important, he said. Additionally, the school provides “substantial programs to help students prepare and plan for their professional careers.”


Other schools also noted CEW’s calculations don’t take into account the location of schools and migration of students after graduation in the context of earnings. Universities in close proximity to high-paying cities like New York, for instance, are more likely to produce a higher median salary for graduates than those located in the midwest or south.

Furthermore, academics contacted by Bloomberg said that while they agree students must consider costs when picking out an institution, attending college will always be worth it.

“Whatever that right fit school is for you, that’s where you should be, independent of financial ability or ability to pay,” said Phillip Levine, an economics professor at Wellesley College. “If you have that student who should be going to a very top institution, but ends up at the community college because they think that that’s what they can afford, that’s a mistake.”

Wealth Deferred
Still, as graduates take on more debt and pay down balances for longer, many aren’t able to see the same wealth-building advantages typically associated with higher education.

A Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis report from 2019 found that while college graduates still enjoy higher salaries, the wealth premium had declined for more recent graduates, thanks in part to the rising cost of college.

Federal Student Loan Debt Has More Than Doubled Since 2010
0
0.5
1.0
$ 1.5 T
2010
'11
'12
'13
'14
'15
'16
'17
'18
'19
'20
'21
'22
2023

Source: US Education Department
“If you’re busy paying down student loan debt as opposed to putting money in a 401(k) or down towards a house, that has larger macro economic consequences,” said Ana Hernández Kent, a senior researcher at the St. Louis Fed. “Even if it’s just a few years, it’s taking graduates longer to get there. They don’t have as much time to allow those assets to appreciate.”


That seems to be the case for Ryan McMullin, a 27 year old in Washington DC, who now works at a top consulting firm.

McMullin attended the renowned Elliott School of International Affairs at George Washington University, studied for a year at the Paris Institute of Political Studies and worked as a paralegal for a law firm.

But even with his success, he wonders if he made the right choices — starting with the decision to take on $145,000 in student debt. While he earns more than the average American, he says the burden of his debt outweighs the higher paycheck he earns.

He thinks of his former high school classmates in Pennsylvania who are buying homes and starting families. With a $1,250 monthly student loan bill, McMullin says can’t even afford to live alone or buy a car. In fact, he feels trapped by his choices.

“I have genuine fears I won’t have a reasonable chance of hitting major milestones until much later in life,” he said. “I don’t think a degree, certainly not a private one, was necessary. It’s not going to help me achieve some of the things in life that really matter.”

Related tickers:
321034Z:US (Columbia University in the City of New York)
545745Z:US (Cornell University)
317595Z:US (Dartmouth College)
3252Z:US (Harvard University)
8943Z:US (Princeton University)
318542Z:US (University of Pennsylvania)
6047Z:US (Yale University)
3648655Z:US (University of Georgia)
27359MF:US (Tulane University)
854804Z:US (Wake Forest University)
321042Z:US (New York University)
51051MF:US (Manhattan College)
855080Z:US (Franklin and Marshall College)
855104Z:US (Oberlin College)
780797Z:US (Vassar College)
317611Z:US (Wellesley College)
BX:US (Blackstone Inc.)
5092Z:US (Ernst & Young LLP)
Editors:
Jennifer Bissell-Linsk
Yue Qiu
Craig Giammona
With the assistance of:
Brittany Harris
Methodology
Bloomberg’s analysis was of more than 1,500 four-year, nonprofit undergraduate colleges and universities in the US that predominantly offer Bachelor’s degrees. The data was provided by Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce (CEW), which used College Scorecard data for its calculations. The data are based on surveys of graduates who accepted federal aid during enrollment, meaning the outcomes of students who paid out of pocket are not included in the analysis.

The most recent iteration of the College Scorecard data include the 2019 and 2020 earnings of students who were enrolled in 2008-09 and 2009-10. These earnings are then adjusted to 2021 dollars and reported at the median. CEW’s calculations take into consideration College Scorecard’s data on net price and median earnings at six, eight and 10 years after initial attendance. It took averages between years 6, 8, and 10 to get earnings for years 7 and 9. And it did not take into consideration the cost to service debt associated with earning the degree. The net price figure is the cost of attendance, including room and board, minus federal and institutional aid and scholarships. The calculation also assumes students incurred costs for five years — which is the average time it takes to graduate — and didn’t start earning money until six years out from enrollment. Then, the center’s figure for the return on investment is expressed as a net present value as of 2021, in which future cash flows were given a 2% discount rate.

The analysis then categorized CEW’s data by public, public flagship, private, elite private and Ivy League institutions. It relied on data from CEW to do so for all but the elite private category. This category was derived from the list provided in Howard and Matthew Greene’s book The Hidden Ivies, which is an in-depth look at 63 colleges and universities offering a broad liberal arts education. Highly selective schools notably missing from this list, however, include the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, Harvey Mudd College, Boston University and New York University.

Salary comparison to a typical high school graduate compares the median earnings in the CEW data, which is in 2021 dollars, to the 2021 datapoint for salary of recent high school graduates from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

STEM major percentages are calculated based on data from IPEDS on first major degrees given in 2022 and the Department of Homeland Security STEM Designated Degree Program List. Some schools are not included in the data.

What’s the ROI for an academy graduate killed or wounded in the line of duty fulfilling his or hers obligation?

Better than my example of the UNC lax captain serving as a SEAL officer in Africa if such. He/his family paid for UNC out of state. OCS volunteer post college. Both awful if occur.

Not better than these brothers.

https://essexnewsdaily.com/sports/sport ... d-by-state

https://navy.togetherweserved.com/usn/s ... &ID=379265

Not sure we're talking apples to apples re ROI.

The "ROI" has to do with 10 year earnings relative to $ paid for college, or lifetime earnings.

Obviously if the education is paid by taxpayer the ROI of earnings to cost is infinite.

The sacrifice of one's life, of course, is an immeasurable cost (IMO) but it's the same as whether one came through a service academy or otherwise volunteered. Both are volunteer choices, but one pays for an educational alternative to traditional college.

[MDlaxfan76]

They can also retire after 20 years either voluntarily or not and plug right into what was once labeled the Military Industrial Complex And get a big boost in pay.

Defense contractors can do math. They know what you were making after taxes & in most cases, offer parity, unless you can bring them new "work" immediately.

You can't really retire solely on a military pension, especially if you have a mortgage & still have kids at home or going to college. It is a helpful safety net while you transition to a second career.

Does private enterprise provide pensions anymore?
Used to, but gotta be extremely rare now.

But our 'socialist' government, whether federal or state, does provide pensions.
More than simply a 'safety net', it's substantial deferred compensation.
And doesn't prevent you from earning other income with your time.

[NattyBohChamps04]

They can also retire after 20 years either voluntarily or not and plug right into what was once labeled the Military Industrial Complex And get a big boost in pay.

Defense contractors can do math. They know what you were making after taxes & in most cases, offer parity, unless you can bring them new "work" immediately.

You can't really retire solely on a military pension, especially if you have a mortgage & still have kids at home or going to college. It is a helpful safety net while you transition to a second career.

Does private enterprise provide pensions anymore?
Used to, but gotta be extremely rare now.

But our 'socialist' government, whether federal or state, does provide pensions.
More than simply a 'safety net', it's substantial deferred compensation.
And doesn't prevent you from earning other income with your time.

My old man gets to cash an Army check, a private pension check and a SSN check every month. And he still works when he wants to. I haven't seen a pension benefit in any job I've applied for in the past 20 years.

[MDlaxfan76]

They can also retire after 20 years either voluntarily or not and plug right into what was once labeled the Military Industrial Complex And get a big boost in pay.

Defense contractors can do math. They know what you were making after taxes & in most cases, offer parity, unless you can bring them new "work" immediately.

You can't really retire solely on a military pension, especially if you have a mortgage & still have kids at home or going to college. It is a helpful safety net while you transition to a second career.

Does private enterprise provide pensions anymore?
Used to, but gotta be extremely rare now.

But our 'socialist' government, whether federal or state, does provide pensions.
More than simply a 'safety net', it's substantial deferred compensation.
And doesn't prevent you from earning other income with your time.

My old man gets to cash an Army check, a private pension check and a SSN check every month. And he still works when he wants to. I haven't seen a pension benefit in any job I've applied for in the past 20 years.

We lived in a more "socialist" era back then, including a much larger part of the private system.

There are still union pensions, but outside of government that's shrunk to a very small percentage of total private workforce.

Seems to me that a big part of the angst that people in towns dotted across America in every region feel today is the loss of that security post today's paycheck. As businesses felt more pressure to compete in global labor markets which are an unavoidable reality despite the teeth gnashers' complaints, they pulled back on labor costs, including pensions, as much as they could get away with...and then moved production overseas when it was still untenable.

Meanwhile, as the information economy swept through the world, Americans with the right education, and with focus on that opportunity which tended to be located in high population centers, thrived economically. While it took two earners to achieve relative prosperity what one was able to do in a prior era, women getting access to education and working enabled enough to create that lifestyle with some expectation of security in those regions...but not the towns where employers closed.

Insecure, paycheck to paycheck, dwindling or insecure consumer spend for otherwise successful business owners, created a 'market' for looking for demons, whether the 'elites' or 'immigrants' or whatever.

And ultimately much higher reliance on federal government spend to keep their regions and them afloat at all. Which they resent (and deny). Perversely, but understandable psychologically.

[Typical Lax Dad]

They can also retire after 20 years either voluntarily or not and plug right into what was once labeled the Military Industrial Complex And get a big boost in pay.

Defense contractors can do math. They know what you were making after taxes & in most cases, offer parity, unless you can bring them new "work" immediately.

You can't really retire solely on a military pension, especially if you have a mortgage & still have kids at home or going to college. It is a helpful safety net while you transition to a second career.

Does private enterprise provide pensions anymore?
Used to, but gotta be extremely rare now.

But our 'socialist' government, whether federal or state, does provide pensions.
More than simply a 'safety net', it's substantial deferred compensation.
And doesn't prevent you from earning other income with your time.

My old man gets to cash an Army check, a private pension check and a SSN check every month. And he still works when he wants to. I haven't seen a pension benefit in any job I've applied for in the past 20 years.

We lived in a more "socialist" era back then, including a much larger part of the private system.

There are still union pensions, but outside of government that's shrunk to a very small percentage of total private workforce.

Seems to me that a big part of the angst that people in towns dotted across America in every region feel today is the loss of that security post today's paycheck. As businesses felt more pressure to compete in global labor markets which are an unavoidable reality despite the teeth gnashers' complaints, they pulled back on labor costs, including pensions, as much as they could get away with...and then moved production overseas when it was still untenable.

Meanwhile, as the information economy swept through the world, Americans with the right education, and with focus on that opportunity which tended to be located in high population centers, thrived economically. While it took two earners to achieve relative prosperity what one was able to do in a prior era, women getting access to education and working enabled enough to create that lifestyle with some expectation of security in those regions...but not the towns where employers closed.

Insecure, paycheck to paycheck, dwindling or insecure consumer spend for otherwise successful business owners, created a 'market' for looking for demons, whether the 'elites' or 'immigrants' or whatever.

And ultimately much higher reliance on federal government spend to keep their regions and them afloat at all. Which they resent (and deny). Perversely, but understandable psychologically.

+1….. when social security is scaled back it will be sold with the slogan “you don’t need the government to invest your money for retirement, you can invest it yourself….get the government out of your life….” May even let you put your social security benefits on an ATM card…. The gap is getting wider between the haves and have nots.

[NattyBohChamps04]

+1….. when social security is scaled back it will be sold with the slogan “you don’t need the government to invest your money for retirement, you can invest it yourself….get the government out of your life….” May even let you put your social security benefits on an ATM card…. The gap is getting wider between the haves and have nots.

Are you tired of paying thousands of dollars of your hard-earned paycheck directly to the government each year? You too may be paying up to $20,000 of YOUR money into Social Security each year. Would you rather give that to the incompetent government, or put that towards your own retirement account, or anything else you want. Medical bills? Boat payment?

Why are you paying for other people's retirement?! It's your money, and you want it now! Now, back to the Mark Levin show...



I could honestly see the poor rubes, many who need it most, push to eliminate social security.

[Typical Lax Dad]

+1….. when social security is scaled back it will be sold with the slogan “you don’t need the government to invest your money for retirement, you can invest it yourself….get the government out of your life….” May even let you put your social security benefits on an ATM card…. The gap is getting wider between the haves and have nots.

Are you tired of paying thousands of dollars of your hard-earned paycheck directly to the government each year? You too may be paying up to $20,000 of YOUR money into Social Security each year. Would you rather give that to the incompetent government, or put that towards your own retirement account, or anything else you want. Medical bills? Boat payment?

Why are you paying for other people's retirement?! It's your money, and you want it now! Now, back to the Mark Levin show...

I could honestly see the poor rubes, many who need it most, push to eliminate social security.

[ardilla secreta]

The son of a very close friend didn’t want to go to college after graduation from his high achieving high school outside Phila. He entered the Marines right after graduation. Did two stints, was a sniper and traveled the world teaching others to be a sniper.

After the Marines he enrolled at Penn State using veteran benefits. Graduated with honors in mechanical engineering and had job offers before he finished in 2022. Been working for an aeronautics firm in Pittsburgh making good money and benefits, created a modest nest-egg from time in Marines, has no debt and has a very sweet gf working on her PhD in medical science.