All Things Russia & Ukraine

[old salt]

Great. So please don't tell me I'm building strawmen when I read your above position, and conclude that you want the sanctions dropped.

Did you use the exact words "I want him to drop the sanctions"? No. I'm not blind. But please don't jump all over me when I read post after post after post telling me how you think the sanctions are pointless......and come to the obvious conclusion that you think we should drop the sanctions.

Show me where I ever said we should remove sanctions already in place. That would be backing down.
Once you put them in place, you're putting down a marker which is almost impossible to unwind.

I criticize our reflexive, promiscuous use of them without adequately considering the long term consequences.
I am for removing them when we get something in return.

[OCanada]

Trump has refused to impose sanctions that were approved by Congress. Rand Paul and Bernie voted against. He backed down

[OCanada]

Russia and its goals and objectives and Trump’s actions

Oleg Kalugin. Major General, Committee For State Security (KGB). Active Measures are he said “ The heart and Soul of the Soviet Intelligence"

Active measures “ Not intelligence collection, but subversion: active measures to weaken the West, to drive wedges in the Western alliance community of ALL sorts, particularly NATO,to sow discord among allies, to weaken the United States in the eyes of the people of Europe. Asia, Africa. Latin America and thus to, prepare ground in case the war really occurs. To make America more vulnerable to the anger and distress of other people."

Active measures are implemented by "actions aimed at creating agent positions in the enemy camp and its environment, playing operational games with the enemy, directed at misinforming, discrediting and corrupting enemy forces."

Advanced quite a lot in the last couple of years.

[OCanada]

Putin/Terror

In 1999 Vlad was Prime Minister when a series of terrorist attacks took place against Russian Apartment buildings. It was after the first Chechen War to wipeout the Chechen independence movement killing more than 100,000. While the Chechen President was on the phone negotiating a peace he was assassinated by the Russian IC using American technology provided to the FSB (KGB). The apartment bombings in three cities killed 300 and injured more than a thousand. Chechen separitists were blamed. The reality is the Russian IC panned the entire thing with the goal of galvanizing support for its Chechen war. On the basis of that Vlad gained the Presidency.

The next year Putin wanted the taliban out of Afghanistan. He was in touch with Clinton at the time. The Taliban had put a stop to heroin production that hurt Semion Moglievich ( A Trump friend) and related organized crime and because they did not want to pursue the natural gas pipeline. India's media reported that a joint force composed of Russian, US and Indian forces was being created to take out the Taliban. September 12 Russian media claimed Russian IC knew who was behind the attack and had warned Bush a few weeks earlier.

9/11 shifted the FBI's attention from Russian organized crime and Semion Moglivech. See above.

Felix Sater, Trump's business partner, has extensive ties to Russian organized crime. He is a former informant.

Obama disliked Putin and so did Clinton. Putin wanted Trump to win. Apparently laundering money for Simeon goes back a long time.

Reportedly the people Trump is going after hardest are all experts on russian organized crime.

cf The War on Truth and The Terror Timeline.

[old salt]

2 days before 9-11, after OBL assassinated Massoud, Putin called Bush & warned him something big was coming.

Initially, Putin was a stout ally in the GWOT. He shared intel & gave us access to Afghanistan.
He negotiated historic arms control treaties & went along with reassuring military to military confidence building

Clinton had good relations with Yeltsin. Putin inherited that positive relationship & extended & strengthened it with Bush.
He even initially tolerated NATO expansion as inevitable. He did not start acting counter to US policy until we meddled in Georgia's election & started our campaign to spread regime change under the flag of spreading democracies, which too often turned out to be corrupt & chaotic (e.g. Iran & Afghanistan). We had the opportunity to bring Russia into the 21st century as an ally, but we ignored their historic territorial paranoia, humiliated them by treating them as a second rate power, & reverted to our arrogant Cold War triumphalism. We blew it.

[Typical Lax Dad]

2 days before 9-11, after OBL assassinated Massoud, Putin called Bush & warned him something big was coming.

Initially, Putin was a stout ally in the GWOT. He shared intel & gave us access to Afghanistan.
He negotiated historic arms control treaties & went along with reassuring military to military confidence building

Clinton had good relations with Yeltsin. Putin inherited that positive relationship & extended & strengthened it with Bush.
He even initially tolerated NATO expansion as inevitable. He did not start acting counter to US policy until we meddled in Georgia's election & started our campaign to spread regime change under the flag of spreading democracies, which too often turned out to be corrupt & chaotic (e.g. Iran & Afghanistan). We had the opportunity to bring Russia into the 21st century as an ally, but we ignored their historic territorial paranoia, humiliated them by treating them as a second rate power, & reverted to our arrogant Cold War triumphalism. We blew it.

Sounds like you hate America...

[OCanada]

The US has had a relationship with Georgia for 25 years. Longer than Putin has been President. The relationship deteriorated after he refused to support the Iraq war.

Hm. Mistakes with Russia were made. Having said that we didn’t blow turning Russia into a western style country nor were we going to turn them from what Putin wanted most. The restoration of Russia to great power status.

Putin and Russia resented NATO and the EU. Putin resented Afghanistan and the aid we provided to inflict a humiliating loss. Russia descended into chaos and the grip of organized crime after the fall of the wall. Moscow was like the Wild West. There are certain core principles that have fun through Russian foreign policy for decades. I provided a few of them earlier.

Georgia like Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine etc were all afraid of being brought into mother Russia’s control and were afraid of her.

Georgia was the third largest troop contributor in the Iraq War and the largest per-capita contributor to the U.S. in Afghanistan. We are assisting Georgia in strengthening its institutions in the face of increasing pressure from Russia and provided the country with financial assistance.

Putin was once head of the KGB going back to the Soviet Union. Putin killed Russians to gain support his de ind Chechen war and distract attention from the chaos of Russia. No one trusted him. They all knew his history

[old salt]

Georgia & Ukraine are as corrupt as Russia. Pick your poison.
Where's Saakashvili now ? We should have stayed neutral.
...but then where would Soros have spent his NGO $'s.
We tried to take advantage of Russia at their weakest.
It didn't work.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Georgia & Ukraine are as corrupt as Russia. Pick your poison.
Where's Saakashvili now ? We should have stayed neutral.
...but then where would Soros have spent his NGO $'s.
We tried to take advantage of Russia at their weakest.
It didn't work.

You loath America

[cradleandshoot]

Georgia & Ukraine are as corrupt as Russia. Pick your poison.
Where's Saakashvili now ? We should have stayed neutral.
...but then where would Soros have spent his NGO $'s.
We tried to take advantage of Russia at their weakest.
It didn't work.

You loath America

????????? You been bonging with Dmac right...

[Typical Lax Dad]

Georgia & Ukraine are as corrupt as Russia. Pick your poison.
Where's Saakashvili now ? We should have stayed neutral.
...but then where would Soros have spent his NGO $'s.
We tried to take advantage of Russia at their weakest.
It didn't work.

You loath America

????????? You been bonging with Dmac right...

If you criticize actions taken by the government you hate this country.

[OCanada]

OS seems to be a Putin apologist. Useful I suppose if you want to decontaminate Putin because his narrative omits quite a lot. I will fill in a few pieces on Monday. Too busy today.

Putin is widely regarded as the richest man in the world. Wealth estimated at 100-150 billion. He didn’t get it on his salary. He controls the Russian mob, the oligarchs and major industries. Russia is a “mafia” state. Trump is mobbed up and heavily dependent on Russian sourced money. The Russians turned their banks and businesses into money laundering machines. Reporters get tossed out of windows if they antagonize him.

As an aside I have seen his personal yacht and his villa in Malta. Both impressive.

The right wing “nationalistic myth is characterized by the effort to construct an idea of nation and national belonging by radicalizing ethnic, religious, cultural and political criteria of exclusion and to condense the idea of nation into an image of extreme collective homogeneity.” Lilia Shevtsova.

[6ftstick]

OS seems to be a Putin apologist. Useful I suppose if you want to decontaminate Putin because his narrative omits quite a lot. I will fill in a few pieces on Monday. Too busy today.

Putin is widely regarded as the richest man in the world. Wealth estimated at 100-150 billion. He didn’t get it on his salary. He controls the Russian mob, the oligarchs and major industries. Russia is a “mafia” state. Trump is mobbed up and heavily dependent on Russian sourced money. The Russians turned their banks and businesses into money laundering machines. Reporters get tossed out of windows if they antagonize him.

As an aside I have seen his personal yacht and his villa in Malta. Both impressive.

The right wing “nationalistic myth is characterized by the effort to construct an idea of nation and national belonging by radicalizing ethnic, religious, cultural and political criteria of exclusion and to condense the idea of nation into an image of extreme collective homogeneity.” Lilia Shevtsova.

Funny Mueller found none of that.

[OCanada]

You really need a law course and common dende

[old salt]

OS seems to be a Putin apologist. Useful I suppose if you want to decontaminate Putin because his narrative omits quite a lot. I will fill in a few pieces on Monday. Too busy today.

Putin is widely regarded as the richest man in the world. Wealth estimated at 100-150 billion. He didn’t get it on his salary. He controls the Russian mob, the oligarchs and major industries. Russia is a “mafia” state. Trump is mobbed up and heavily dependent on Russian sourced money. The Russians turned their banks and businesses into money laundering machines. Reporters get tossed out of windows if they antagonize him.

As an aside I have seen his personal yacht and his villa in Malta. Both impressive.

The right wing “nationalistic myth is characterized by the effort to construct an idea of nation and national belonging by radicalizing ethnic, religious, cultural and political criteria of exclusion and to condense the idea of nation into an image of extreme collective homogeneity.” Lilia Shevtsova.

Right. Our policies in dealing with Putin have proven so effective.
I'm not nominating Putin for a Nobel Peace Prize.
We have to coexist with him. Our scoldings just strengthen him domestically.
Our sanctions have had marginal impact. Detente is dead.
Putin was the inevitable corrupt successor of a corrupt failed USSR.
We need to deal with him as he is, rather than expecting to change him,
& give the Russian people the respect due a superpower with a long, proud history,
...like the rest of the world does.

[OCanada]

I agree with several points.

I wager I am the only one here who dated a Russian woman while she was living in Khabarovsk. She worked for a tv station. Her ex played on the Russian national futball team. She eventually dated and married a Norwegian and moved there.

Our economic sanctions have taken more than a marginal toll but I don’t think they ever can bring submission. It’s a negotiating lever

[a fan]

& give the Russian people the respect due a superpower with a long, proud history,
...like the rest of the world does.

Can’t do that. So long as he keeps messing with our elections....or rather, keeps getting caught messing with our elections....red blooded Americans won’t put up with that cr*p.

Don’t like being treated like the five year old brother in the back seat of the station wagon? Stop acting like it.

You don’t own the Ukraine. Sorry.

We don’t need Putin any more than we need Italy. Meanwhile, when it comes to countries like China, where we truly need them for our 21st century economy ? Not to mention how epically dangerous a Cold War with them would be?

And yet Trump acts like our relationship is irrelevant, and some stupid game. China could start working more with Iran and China just to spite Trump. You think they care about a phony “trade imbalance “. ?

[Typical Lax Dad]

OS seems to be a Putin apologist. Useful I suppose if you want to decontaminate Putin because his narrative omits quite a lot. I will fill in a few pieces on Monday. Too busy today.

Putin is widely regarded as the richest man in the world. Wealth estimated at 100-150 billion. He didn’t get it on his salary. He controls the Russian mob, the oligarchs and major industries. Russia is a “mafia” state. Trump is mobbed up and heavily dependent on Russian sourced money. The Russians turned their banks and businesses into money laundering machines. Reporters get tossed out of windows if they antagonize him.

As an aside I have seen his personal yacht and his villa in Malta. Both impressive.

The right wing “nationalistic myth is characterized by the effort to construct an idea of nation and national belonging by radicalizing ethnic, religious, cultural and political criteria of exclusion and to condense the idea of nation into an image of extreme collective homogeneity.” Lilia Shevtsova.

Right. Our policies in dealing with Putin have proven so effective.
I'm not nominating Putin for a Nobel Peace Prize.
We have to coexist with him. Our scoldings just strengthen him domestically.
Our sanctions have had marginal impact. Detente is dead.
Putin was the inevitable corrupt successor of a corrupt failed USSR.
We need to deal with him as he is, rather than expecting to change him,
& give the Russian people the respect due a superpower with a long, proud history,
...like the rest of the world does.

Who cares what the rest of the world thinks about the USA...You sound like you hate America.

[cradleandshoot]

Georgia & Ukraine are as corrupt as Russia. Pick your poison.
Where's Saakashvili now ? We should have stayed neutral.
...but then where would Soros have spent his NGO $'s.
We tried to take advantage of Russia at their weakest.
It didn't work.

You loath America

????????? You been bonging with Dmac right...

If you criticize actions taken by the government you hate this country.

That would be true if you were talking about a Republican. If a Democrat FLP type criticizes the country they are a true patriot indeed.

[OCanada]

Seems you are making the mistake Louis made in France. L’etat c’est moi” is not true in this country