North vs South

[JustOneTime]

I have seen in several of the topics discuss the age old question of North vs South and who is better so I thought we could have one site for the debate.
This year I count roughly 25 wins for the north vs 14 wins for the south. I tried to stay within the top say 70 teams, I'm sure there are some additional games of lesser quality teams.

I decided to check out the NCAA tournament from the last 10 years to see what teams made it to the quarterfinals and beyond. The North has just a slight edge.
Quarterfinals - South = 10 teams (35 trips), North = 13 teams (36 trips)
Salisbury 10, RIT 9, Tufts 9, York 5, Lynchburg 5, Cortland 4, Gettysburg 4, Denison 4, CNU 3, Dickinson 3, Amherst 3, Union 2, Cabrini 2, Wesleyan 2, OWU 2, Stevenson 2, W&L 1, Middlebury 1, Bowdoin 1, Col Coll 1, Ill Wes 1, Williams 1, Bates 1, St. Lawrence 1, Ithaca 1, WNE 1, Wash Coll 1.
Semifinals - South = 8 teams (18 trips), North = 8 teams (21 trips)
Salisbury 8, RIT 8, Tufts 6, Gettysburg 3, CNU 2, Wesleyan 2, York 1, Union 1, Amherst 1, Williams 1, Cabrini 1, Denison 1, St. Lawrence 1, Lynchburg 1, Wash Coll 1, Stevenson 1, Cortland 1
Finals - South = 4 teams (9 trips), North 5 teams (11 trips)
Salisbury 6, RIT 4, Tufts 4, Union 1, Amherst 1, Cabrini 1, Wesleyan 1, Lynchburg 1, Stevenson 1
Champ - South = 3 teams (5 trips), North = 3 teams (5 trips)
Salisbury 3, RIT 2, Tufts 2, Cabrini 1, Wesleyan 1, Stevenson 1

In the NCAA tournament since 2018 here are the results of the North vs South games - this is fairly even
2023 - South 4 wins, North 2 wins
2022 - North 5 wins, South 3 wins
2021 - North 2 wins, South 1 win
2019 - North 5 wins, South 3 wins
2018 - South 5 wins, North 4 wins

In looking at the end of year Massey Ratings from the past 5 years of the top 40 teams there is an edge to the North
2023 - North 23 teams, South 16 teams, 1 West
2022 - North 21, South 18, 1 West
2021 - North 18, South 17, 5 West
2019 - North 22, South 15, 3 West
2018 - North 19, South 17, 4 West

In summary I would say the North has an edge. It is not a domination as some would suggest.
I feel there may be less and less games between the North and South as schools will be faced with more budget issues.

Let the debate begin.

[richard]

Then only problem with looking at this from the ncaa tournament perspective is that the tournament is set up closely to a north south format. Yes there are exceptions in each tournament but not enough to skew your results dramatically.

I don’t know where the line between north and south is in this exercise either but if you use the Mason Dixon line the north is so much deeper in the top 70. Is Stevens really in the south or is Gettysburg in the south and Haverford in the north? And you can’t answer one or the other to suit your agenda. Also what do you do with the Midwest?

The answer to this is just a numbers game. There are more northern teams that have been around longer than the southern teams which would lead one to believe that the north would have a better record vs the south. I.e. if Trinity was#35 in the north and Shenandoah was #35 in the south what would the outcome be?

In the end I say just enjoy the fact that there is a Mustang Classic and NCAA tournament and hope that they continue in the foreseeable future.

[JustOneTime]

PA and NJ are part of the South. Ohio and beyond is the West.

[richard]

PA and NJ are part of the South. Ohio and beyond is the West.
[/quote

I understand for the tournament that it is divided up like that but that is a decision based on numbers not actual location. Tell the guy at Rhodes that when they are playing Montclair that they are playing another team from the south.

[AbeFroeman]

this article might be interesting for this topic. it focuses on D1. but still interesting

https://lacrosseculturedaily.com/2024/0 ... -counties/

[richard]

this article might be interesting for this topic. it focuses on D1. but still interesting

https://lacrosseculturedaily.com/2024/0 ... -counties/

Nice but they didn’t include the center of the lacrosse universe, Baltimore City! All those Roland Park kids will dismiss this as BS!

[Backlax]

NJ is definitely in the North, probably PA as well.

MD/Virginia and below is South.

You can't really include the Ohio teams and those West in either.

[StevieUAlum]

For reference, Stevenson won the MAC in 2017, got the AQ and the committee put them in the North. Lost to RIT in the quarters.


Not a lot of rhyme or reason to these selections sometimes.

[Devil4Life]

Wish Salisbury played two powerhouses from North at Mustang Classic. Frankly, the top South teams should only play the top North teams. Hopefully, they get it right at some point.

[Laxattackjack]

For reference, Stevenson won the MAC in 2017, got the AQ and the committee put them in the North. Lost to RIT in the quarters.


Not a lot of rhyme or reason to these selections sometimes.

i am convinced the selection has criteria

top 8 get home first round games.
but
they want 4 games in north and 4 in the south. so if the top 8 don’t break down that way, they might have to skip a top 8 team. after that, i think they rank all teams 1-32. rankings are based on regional rankings and i think usila rankings will be closest to resemble. if season ended with todays ranking. salisbury would host teams 16,17, and 32. etc. so anyone ranked below 8, no matter how many wins or conference championships, would travel based on final ranking.

[richard]

The NCAA provides information about selection criteria on their website. Road to the Championships NCAA.com. Their biggest concern,and sometimes it affects seeding, is travel.

[Unknown Participant]

For reference, Stevenson won the MAC in 2017, got the AQ and the committee put them in the North. Lost to RIT in the quarters.


Not a lot of rhyme or reason to these selections sometimes.

2022 Union v RIT for the NC. Tufts (north) York (south) semifinalists. Tufts (in the north bracket) beat Salisbury in the quarters. I don't drill down too much into DIII lax selections because I know travel is a big factor, but in DI lax and hockey the NCAA sends teams all over. This year, BU hockey (no 2 team in RPI/Pairwise) gets sent to N Dakota to be the 1 seed there as an example. I presume some semblance of that process exists in D III lax.

[Njlaxx11]

i think they should get rid of the whole north vs south thing. i get it's for travel purposes but it doesn't seem like the matchups have been fair

[Laxattackjack]

i think they should get rid of the whole north vs south thing. i get it's for travel purposes but it doesn't seem like the matchups have been fair

what do you mean fair?

[Laxdds]

Wouldn't it be interesting to see where the players are coming from that play for the various North vs South Schools. NE ( Mass, CT, NY) Mid Atlantic (NJ, DE, PA, MD) South and Other (VA, NC GA, OH, TX, etc.) That analysis would give an idea of the strength of player development and to see if the hot beds are still the hot beds.

[AbeFroeman]

Wouldn't it be interesting to see where the players are coming from that play for the various North vs South Schools. NE ( Mass, CT, NY) Mid Atlantic (NJ, DE, PA, MD) South and Other (VA, NC GA, OH, TX, etc.) That analysis would give an idea of the strength of player development and to see if the hot beds are still the hot beds.

this question is answered (for D1) in the Turf Wars link a few posts up

[justanotherperson]

It looks the question of where to draw the line is the first question that needs to be answered. Is it:

-mason dixon?
-civil war era?
-original 13 colonies
-political map (please no, Im kidding)

Personally I would draw the border with Maryland and Delaware being in the south (at least until Wesley in delaware becomes a powerhouse) just to even the playing field.

A better, yet more complicated would be to create more division with:
-Northeast (NY and east)
-Midatlantic (MD, DE, NJ, PA, VA
-South (anything south of virginia that touches the ocean))
-Midwest / West (everything else)

I do like like laxdds idea to do a subgroup analysis on where the development actually happens but that seems to exhausting to do and then further lines need to be drawn (where they live, where they go to school, where they play club, etc)

[JustOneTime]

For the original post I included PA and NJ in the South. By my count there are the following number of teams in each region;
MD, DE, VA, DC, NC, SC, GA, AL, TN, KY = 38 teams
PA + NJ = 53 teams
NY + New England = 99 teams
Ohio and points west = 58 teams

In order to balance out the number of teams when comparing North and South, PA & NJ added to the South teams which makes if just about even with the North.

[D3LaxFan2]

There are now 5 regions in D3 lacrosse, named Region 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. North/South doesn't really exist anymore.

[Laxattackjack]

There are now 5 regions in D3 lacrosse, named Region 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. North/South doesn't really exist anymore.

2 north. 2 south. and the bucket