All Things China

[OCanada]

An economist’s view and some economic history. Not technical He is referring to Steve Moore. Trump clearly wants to crash China's economy. a great deal of damage can be done on both sides and it could spin into a global crisis given the position of both. Hard to see how they climb down but it is noteworthy they have both built in a little time... a few weeks..to try and find a way out. I suppose a very little optimism

Steve, what you are saying is simply delusional.

You keep saying that Xi needs to deal. Why? Because, you say, Trump is deadly serious on China an sod will not back down.

Do remember that Trump declared victory on reforming NAFTA, "the worst trade deal in the history of the world", with small adjustments on autoparts rules-of-origin. Small adjustment on auto parts were enough to transform NAFTA, in Trump's mind, from the worst trade deal in the history of the world into something he is now very proud of. Xi has to be thinking that he should deal with Trump the same way that Mexico did—hang tough, provide a few symbolic concessions only, and Trump will cave. then things will go go back to business-as-usual.

What is there in the situation that would keep that from being the obvious strategy for Xi to follow?

The United States in the nineteenth century did not pay a cent to Britain for its acquisition of British intellectual property in textiles and steel. We did not pay a cent in royalties to Charles Dickens for all of his novels in the nineteenth century. In fact, as late as the 1950s we used a loophole to steal J.R.R. Tolkien's copyright to The Lord of the Rings. We did it to Britain.

Japan industrialized without paying a lot of attention to claims about who owned intellectual property. Japan did it to us.

Now China is doing the same thing to us and Japan—this is what rising powers always do.

This is a source of annoyance. This is a thing to negotiate about. We push, we pull. But that does not change the fact that international trade relationships—whether between Britain and the United States in the 19th century or Japan and America in the mid-20th century or the U.S. and China today—are all enormously valuable win-wins. We are arguing about the division of an enormous surplus from the global division of labor. Letting that argument turn into a trade war that wrecks the joint is the definition of stupidity.

The Obama administration sought leverage over China with respect to intellectual property issues. It wished take a harder line with China on intellectual property. And so it sought to get as many as possible of China's other trading partners on our side. It formed this organization called the Trans-Pacific Partnership to set up a common negotiating position on what the international trade régime in the Pacific should be. The plan was for the TPP countries to then confront and negotiate with China. Back then you thought this was good—you and Art Laffer wrote a number of pieces about how great the TPP was, and how much leverage it would give the U.S. You wrote about how Marco Rubio was to be highly praised because he had been willing to become a decisive Senate vote to grant Obama the power to negotiate the TPP.

Indeed, if the bulk of countries from which China might seek to buy from or sell to were on board, the U.S. would now have a lot of leverage. But they aren't. So we don't.

Why don't we? Because, lo and behold, someone convinced Trump that the TPP was the second-worst trade deal in American history—"it's almost as bad as NAFTA!"—and you switched sides. All of a sudden you were there, on Trish Regan's show, claiming the TPP is a horrible deal for America.

Donald Trump... is not a terribly wise person. Jared Kushner... finds and brings into the White House this guy Peter Navarro who seems to be... simply delusional. Robert Lighthizer... an effective pro-free trade technocrat back in the Reagan and Bush 41 administrations... is now adopting positions... that I can only understand as driven by corruption.

Trump, Navarro, and Lighthizer appear to be running this China trade war.

And I cannot find a single other person in the White House who approves of and is willing top defend what they are doing.

Trump was—it appears Trump still is—insisting on bilateral balance with China. That is not going to happen. Balanced trade inevitably requires bilateral surpluses and deficits, because for no country in the world is the set of countries it wants to export to identical to the set of countries it needs to import from. Balance is always at least triangular, and almost always even more complicated. The United States is a country that wants to import from China but sees other countries as more attractive export targets. Therefore balanced U.S. overall trade would still produce a bilateral deficit with China.

Moreover, low-savings countries run trade deficits. The United States is a low-savings country.

Consider how things look from Xi's perspective, sitting in Beijing.

Xi has got to conclude that somebody who truly cared about and was genuinely serious about the intellectual property issues would not have blown up his leverage on day 1 by nuking the TPP.

Xi has got to conclude that someone who cared about trade issues at all would not be damanding something—bilateral trade balance—that is never going to happen both because the U.S. is a low-savings country and low-savings countries run trade deficits, and because the way trade would balance would have China running bilateral deficits with its materials suppliers, its materials suppliers running bilateral deficits with us, and our running a bilateral deficit with China.

Xi has got to conclude that this all might be a big and stupid bluff because someone who was genuinely serious about intellectual property would not have thrown away his leverage to start with.

Xi has got to conclude that this all might be a big and stupid bluff because someone who was genuinely serious would not be demanding something—balanced bilateral trade—that simply ain't going to happen no matter what.

Or Xi may conclude that Trump is simply someone who cannot be reasoned or negotiated with.

From Xi's perspective, it has to look like he is negotiating with somebody who is (a) bluffing or (b) flunking his Turing Test.

In either case, the natural and logical strategy for Xi is to do what the Mexican government did: hang tough, offer no substantive concessions, and make trying to keep America from doing something truly stupid Trump's problem and his advisors' problem.

That is the right strategy if (a) Trump is bluffing—as he bluffed on the shutdown, as the bluffed on NAFTA

That is also the right strategy even if (b) Trump is not bluffing, for what point is there in offering substantive concessions when the people running policy—Trump, Navarro, Lighthizer—are not wise, are delusional, appear corrupt, have no support either inside or outside the White House, and will react to whatever you do in unpredictable ways?

So we had better hope this is another Trump bluff.

[a fan]

I'll take a swing at it. Smart guy.

Since 2009 China has tripled their GDP. Over 5 Trillion of it over 10 years from a trade imbalance with US.
(Never during the 5 decade cold war did we contribute a penny to the growth and global ambitions of the Soviet Union.)
These are communists if you forgot. They wear expensive suits and smile at the cameras but they're still putting their people in concentration camps right now. And limiting personal freedoms.

The International Monetary Fund has accepted the yuan as a main world reserve currency. They're posturing to replace the US dollar.

The chi coms are using the trade imbalance to accelerate their military buildup. Aircraft carriers, planes, tanks, missiles, militarily strategic islands in the south China Sea.

They continue to steal intellectual property. Improving their technological capability in a fraction of the time it took our R&D efforts.

I have grandchildren. When they get to be 18 or 19 they might have to face an even stronger, ambitious and more confrontational Chinese government looking for something for over a billion people to do besides weigh down the government. History shows Communists are not opposed to thinning the herd
and lightening the load.

We can do something now to slow that growth—at our expense—or continue to kick the can down the road like, umm, lets see, North Korea. Where we have no good options. And then you can chuckle and mock whatever President has to deal with them then, like you do with Trump now and NK, with our backs against the wall.

We had to send an entire generation to war to stop the global aspirations of a tyrannical axis. Maybe we can just subsidize some soybean farmers now instead of sacrificing millions of our grand children in the decades to come.

So you and Trump have quite the master plan here.

Step 1. after 50 years of peace with a nuclear China, you two think it's a swell idea to pick a fight with them.

Step 2. So to prepare for this, you and Trump think it's a brilliant idea to cut tax revenues to the bone, and then increase spending by $2.7 Trillion, and....ahem....borrow every penny of this new spending from (drumroll) China.

Step 3, and to top it off, you both think that a great way to show China you REALLY mean business is to borrow $18 Billion dollars from (drumroll) um, China, plus interest, and give it to US farmers for doing nothing whatsoever. The socialism you're always railing against.


Boy, you and Trump are really batting above your average here. I'm sure China will cave to this brilliant plan any minute now...

Wait until Trump borrows another $2 Trillion from China to pay for our infrastructure. That'll show 'em, right?

Right. Good luck with your plan, 6ft.

[a fan]

Just think of it as a VAT on Chinese content & products.

Let's buy sneakers & t-shirts from Central America.

https://www.bizvibe.com/blog/top-5-wash ... -usa-2018/

Using money we're borrowing from China?

You're smarter than this.

If you believe in this stupid path, then just stop trade altogether. Embargo. Tariffs are anti-Republican.

[6ftstick]

I'll take a swing at it. Smart guy.

Since 2009 China has tripled their GDP. Over 5 Trillion of it over 10 years from a trade imbalance with US.
(Never during the 5 decade cold war did we contribute a penny to the growth and global ambitions of the Soviet Union.)
These are communists if you forgot. They wear expensive suits and smile at the cameras but they're still putting their people in concentration camps right now. And limiting personal freedoms.

The International Monetary Fund has accepted the yuan as a main world reserve currency. They're posturing to replace the US dollar.

The chi coms are using the trade imbalance to accelerate their military buildup. Aircraft carriers, planes, tanks, missiles, militarily strategic islands in the south China Sea.

They continue to steal intellectual property. Improving their technological capability in a fraction of the time it took our R&D efforts.

I have grandchildren. When they get to be 18 or 19 they might have to face an even stronger, ambitious and more confrontational Chinese government looking for something for over a billion people to do besides weigh down the government. History shows Communists are not opposed to thinning the herd
and lightening the load.

We can do something now to slow that growth—at our expense—or continue to kick the can down the road like, umm, lets see, North Korea. Where we have no good options. And then you can chuckle and mock whatever President has to deal with them then, like you do with Trump now and NK, with our backs against the wall.

We had to send an entire generation to war to stop the global aspirations of a tyrannical axis. Maybe we can just subsidize some soybean farmers now instead of sacrificing millions of our grand children in the decades to come.

So you and Trump have quite the master plan here.

Step 1. after 50 years of peace with a nuclear China, you two think it's a swell idea to pick a fight with them.

Step 2. So to prepare for this, you and Trump think it's a brilliant idea to cut tax revenues to the bone, and then increase spending by $2.7 Trillion, and....ahem....borrow every penny of this new spending from (drumroll) China.

Step 3, and to top it off, you both think that a great way to show China you REALLY mean business is to borrow $18 Billion dollars from (drumroll) um, China, plus interest, and give it to US farmers for doing nothing whatsoever. The socialism you're always railing against.


Boy, you and Trump are really batting above your average here. I'm sure China will cave to this brilliant plan any minute now...

Wait until Trump borrows another $2 Trillion from China to pay for our infrastructure. That'll show 'em, right?

Right. Good luck with your plan, 6ft.

Yep just me and Trump——sheesh!

Try reading this.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/05/ ... periority/

[Typical Lax Dad]

I'll take a swing at it. Smart guy.

Since 2009 China has tripled their GDP. Over 5 Trillion of it over 10 years from a trade imbalance with US.
(Never during the 5 decade cold war did we contribute a penny to the growth and global ambitions of the Soviet Union.)
These are communists if you forgot. They wear expensive suits and smile at the cameras but they're still putting their people in concentration camps right now. And limiting personal freedoms.

The International Monetary Fund has accepted the yuan as a main world reserve currency. They're posturing to replace the US dollar.

The chi coms are using the trade imbalance to accelerate their military buildup. Aircraft carriers, planes, tanks, missiles, militarily strategic islands in the south China Sea.

They continue to steal intellectual property. Improving their technological capability in a fraction of the time it took our R&D efforts.

I have grandchildren. When they get to be 18 or 19 they might have to face an even stronger, ambitious and more confrontational Chinese government looking for something for over a billion people to do besides weigh down the government. History shows Communists are not opposed to thinning the herd
and lightening the load.

We can do something now to slow that growth—at our expense—or continue to kick the can down the road like, umm, lets see, North Korea. Where we have no good options. And then you can chuckle and mock whatever President has to deal with them then, like you do with Trump now and NK, with our backs against the wall.

We had to send an entire generation to war to stop the global aspirations of a tyrannical axis. Maybe we can just subsidize some soybean farmers now instead of sacrificing millions of our grand children in the decades to come.

So you and Trump have quite the master plan here.

Step 1. after 50 years of peace with a nuclear China, you two think it's a swell idea to pick a fight with them.

Step 2. So to prepare for this, you and Trump think it's a brilliant idea to cut tax revenues to the bone, and then increase spending by $2.7 Trillion, and....ahem....borrow every penny of this new spending from (drumroll) China.

Step 3, and to top it off, you both think that a great way to show China you REALLY mean business is to borrow $18 Billion dollars from (drumroll) um, China, plus interest, and give it to US farmers for doing nothing whatsoever. The socialism you're always railing against.


Boy, you and Trump are really batting above your average here. I'm sure China will cave to this brilliant plan any minute now...

Wait until Trump borrows another $2 Trillion from China to pay for our infrastructure. That'll show 'em, right?

Right. Good luck with your plan, 6ft.

Yep just me and Trumb——sheesh!

Try reading this.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/05/ ... periority/

That guy is so unimpressive it’s hard to believe. Utterly unremarkable but a hero on this forum.

[6ftstick]

I'll take a swing at it. Smart guy.

Since 2009 China has tripled their GDP. Over 5 Trillion of it over 10 years from a trade imbalance with US.
(Never during the 5 decade cold war did we contribute a penny to the growth and global ambitions of the Soviet Union.)
These are communists if you forgot. They wear expensive suits and smile at the cameras but they're still putting their people in concentration camps right now. And limiting personal freedoms.

The International Monetary Fund has accepted the yuan as a main world reserve currency. They're posturing to replace the US dollar.

The chi coms are using the trade imbalance to accelerate their military buildup. Aircraft carriers, planes, tanks, missiles, militarily strategic islands in the south China Sea.

They continue to steal intellectual property. Improving their technological capability in a fraction of the time it took our R&D efforts.

I have grandchildren. When they get to be 18 or 19 they might have to face an even stronger, ambitious and more confrontational Chinese government looking for something for over a billion people to do besides weigh down the government. History shows Communists are not opposed to thinning the herd
and lightening the load.

We can do something now to slow that growth—at our expense—or continue to kick the can down the road like, umm, lets see, North Korea. Where we have no good options. And then you can chuckle and mock whatever President has to deal with them then, like you do with Trump now and NK, with our backs against the wall.

We had to send an entire generation to war to stop the global aspirations of a tyrannical axis. Maybe we can just subsidize some soybean farmers now instead of sacrificing millions of our grand children in the decades to come.

So you and Trump have quite the master plan here.

Step 1. after 50 years of peace with a nuclear China, you two think it's a swell idea to pick a fight with them.

Step 2. So to prepare for this, you and Trump think it's a brilliant idea to cut tax revenues to the bone, and then increase spending by $2.7 Trillion, and....ahem....borrow every penny of this new spending from (drumroll) China.

Step 3, and to top it off, you both think that a great way to show China you REALLY mean business is to borrow $18 Billion dollars from (drumroll) um, China, plus interest, and give it to US farmers for doing nothing whatsoever. The socialism you're always railing against.


Boy, you and Trump are really batting above your average here. I'm sure China will cave to this brilliant plan any minute now...

Wait until Trump borrows another $2 Trillion from China to pay for our infrastructure. That'll show 'em, right?

Right. Good luck with your plan, 6ft.

Yep just me and Trumb——sheesh!

Try reading this.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/05/ ... periority/

That guy is so unimpressive it’s hard to believe. Utterly unremarkable but a hero on this forum.

Don't hurt yourself condescending

[Typical Lax Dad]

I'll take a swing at it. Smart guy.

Since 2009 China has tripled their GDP. Over 5 Trillion of it over 10 years from a trade imbalance with US.
(Never during the 5 decade cold war did we contribute a penny to the growth and global ambitions of the Soviet Union.)
These are communists if you forgot. They wear expensive suits and smile at the cameras but they're still putting their people in concentration camps right now. And limiting personal freedoms.

The International Monetary Fund has accepted the yuan as a main world reserve currency. They're posturing to replace the US dollar.

The chi coms are using the trade imbalance to accelerate their military buildup. Aircraft carriers, planes, tanks, missiles, militarily strategic islands in the south China Sea.

They continue to steal intellectual property. Improving their technological capability in a fraction of the time it took our R&D efforts.

I have grandchildren. When they get to be 18 or 19 they might have to face an even stronger, ambitious and more confrontational Chinese government looking for something for over a billion people to do besides weigh down the government. History shows Communists are not opposed to thinning the herd
and lightening the load.

We can do something now to slow that growth—at our expense—or continue to kick the can down the road like, umm, lets see, North Korea. Where we have no good options. And then you can chuckle and mock whatever President has to deal with them then, like you do with Trump now and NK, with our backs against the wall.

We had to send an entire generation to war to stop the global aspirations of a tyrannical axis. Maybe we can just subsidize some soybean farmers now instead of sacrificing millions of our grand children in the decades to come.

So you and Trump have quite the master plan here.

Step 1. after 50 years of peace with a nuclear China, you two think it's a swell idea to pick a fight with them.

Step 2. So to prepare for this, you and Trump think it's a brilliant idea to cut tax revenues to the bone, and then increase spending by $2.7 Trillion, and....ahem....borrow every penny of this new spending from (drumroll) China.

Step 3, and to top it off, you both think that a great way to show China you REALLY mean business is to borrow $18 Billion dollars from (drumroll) um, China, plus interest, and give it to US farmers for doing nothing whatsoever. The socialism you're always railing against.


Boy, you and Trump are really batting above your average here. I'm sure China will cave to this brilliant plan any minute now...

Wait until Trump borrows another $2 Trillion from China to pay for our infrastructure. That'll show 'em, right?

Right. Good luck with your plan, 6ft.

Yep just me and Trumb——sheesh!

Try reading this.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/05/ ... periority/

That guy is so unimpressive it’s hard to believe. Utterly unremarkable but a hero on this forum.

Don't hurt yourself condescending

No worry....muscle memory....I’m good....
VDH is another multi millionaire paid by billionaires....

[old salt]

VDH is a PITA to the hate-America-firsters. He hits a nerve because he points out the logical & historical fallacies of their self-loathing.

This is good, as Biden assures us the Chinese are the good guys. No worries :

...our own diplomatic elite is often neither culturally nor politically diverse and may exaggerate the European Russian threat and in either condescendingly or politically correct fashion ignore the far greater Chinese challenge. As bad as Russian absorption of Crimea was, there were at least long historical and cultural ties between the two nations and a shared bloody history of resisting foreign conquests at iconic sieges such as Sevastopol. In contrast, China simply stole the far more strategically important Spratley Islands, ignored its neighbors’ claims, created military bases, and may soon adjudicate traffic in the South China Sea — and face no pushback of the sort accorded Putin.

[MDlaxfan76]

VDH is a PITA to the hate-America-firsters. He hits a nerve because he points out the logical & historical fallacies of their self-loathing.

This is good, as Biden assures us the Chinese are the good guys. No worries :

...our own diplomatic elite is often neither culturally nor politically diverse and may exaggerate the European Russian threat and in either condescendingly or politically correct fashion ignore the far greater Chinese challenge. As bad as Russian absorption of Crimea was, there were at least long historical and cultural ties between the two nations and a shared bloody history of resisting foreign conquests at iconic sieges such as Sevastopol. In contrast, China simply stole the far more strategically important Spratley Islands, ignored its neighbors’ claims, created military bases, and may soon adjudicate traffic in the South China Sea — and face no pushback of the sort accorded Putin.

Boy you guys luv you some Vlad.

[old salt]

VDH is a PITA to the hate-America-firsters. He hits a nerve because he points out the logical & historical fallacies of their self-loathing.

This is good, as Biden assures us the Chinese are the good guys. No worries :

...our own diplomatic elite is often neither culturally nor politically diverse and may exaggerate the European Russian threat and in either condescendingly or politically correct fashion ignore the far greater Chinese challenge. As bad as Russian absorption of Crimea was, there were at least long historical and cultural ties between the two nations and a shared bloody history of resisting foreign conquests at iconic sieges such as Sevastopol. In contrast, China simply stole the far more strategically important Spratley Islands, ignored its neighbors’ claims, created military bases, and may soon adjudicate traffic in the South China Sea — and face no pushback of the sort accorded Putin.

Boy you guys luv you some Vlad.

.. ....& you're still ready to lead the 600 into the valley of death, ...to recover Crimea.

[a fan]

I'll take a swing at it. Smart guy.

Since 2009 China has tripled their GDP. Over 5 Trillion of it over 10 years from a trade imbalance with US.
(Never during the 5 decade cold war did we contribute a penny to the growth and global ambitions of the Soviet Union.)
These are communists if you forgot. They wear expensive suits and smile at the cameras but they're still putting their people in concentration camps right now. And limiting personal freedoms.

The International Monetary Fund has accepted the yuan as a main world reserve currency. They're posturing to replace the US dollar.

The chi coms are using the trade imbalance to accelerate their military buildup. Aircraft carriers, planes, tanks, missiles, militarily strategic islands in the south China Sea.

They continue to steal intellectual property. Improving their technological capability in a fraction of the time it took our R&D efforts.

I have grandchildren. When they get to be 18 or 19 they might have to face an even stronger, ambitious and more confrontational Chinese government looking for something for over a billion people to do besides weigh down the government. History shows Communists are not opposed to thinning the herd
and lightening the load.

We can do something now to slow that growth—at our expense—or continue to kick the can down the road like, umm, lets see, North Korea. Where we have no good options. And then you can chuckle and mock whatever President has to deal with them then, like you do with Trump now and NK, with our backs against the wall.

We had to send an entire generation to war to stop the global aspirations of a tyrannical axis. Maybe we can just subsidize some soybean farmers now instead of sacrificing millions of our grand children in the decades to come.

So you and Trump have quite the master plan here.

Step 1. after 50 years of peace with a nuclear China, you two think it's a swell idea to pick a fight with them.

Step 2. So to prepare for this, you and Trump think it's a brilliant idea to cut tax revenues to the bone, and then increase spending by $2.7 Trillion, and....ahem....borrow every penny of this new spending from (drumroll) China.

Step 3, and to top it off, you both think that a great way to show China you REALLY mean business is to borrow $18 Billion dollars from (drumroll) um, China, plus interest, and give it to US farmers for doing nothing whatsoever. The socialism you're always railing against.


Boy, you and Trump are really batting above your average here. I'm sure China will cave to this brilliant plan any minute now...

Wait until Trump borrows another $2 Trillion from China to pay for our infrastructure. That'll show 'em, right?

Right. Good luck with your plan, 6ft.

Yep just me and Trump——sheesh!

Try reading this.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/05/ ... periority/

Great. Now you have boy wonder Hanson on your side. Gee, what do you two have in common?

Noticed you ignored my points, as usual.

Here, let me help you and Hanson (two years in, and Hanson still refuses to write a single word of criticism of Trump's policies. Hanson is a child)

TV anchorman: "Chinese officials stated today that they will no longer purchase US debt. Further, they are quietly unwinding their current positions in US Debt".


Now what do we do? Take your time answering.

If you and Hanson believe this paranoid nonsense, why are you both cheering as Trump takes out $2.7 Trillion in new debt from China?

Because you're both partisans, and can't think any further than if an R does it, it must be brilliant. Heck, Hanson is trying to blame Trump's stupid policy failures with China on (drumroll) PC Hollywood. Yeah. It's Ironman and Wonder Woman's fault. Makes total sense.

Yeah, that Hanson guy is brilliant, alright.

[OCanada]

Bingo on Hanson. Buckley is filling over in his grave.

The lack of knowledge of both trade economics and the dynamic at work in the world is harmful.

The USA after we destructed the economic structure that existed until Breton Woods flipped the switch moving from a trade surplus to a trade deficit position. This was done to fund our budget and trade deficits by cycling the world’s surplus back to the USA. I don’t know if our Treasury suctions are over subscribed by enough to cover s Chinese move. Regardless their pull back will translate into higher interest rates across the Board.

Xi doesn’t have elections and chins is more capitalist than many think. It’s a bit of a trade off to preserve the Party in power. The GOP doesn’t want free elections either but so far they have only suppressed voting and managed to get corporations defined as individuals etc. that is something way beyond anything the FFs envisioned.

In the event there is some reason to believe that the system developed after Breton Woods has fallen since 2008! and our position is weakening again.

[MDlaxfan76]

VDH is a PITA to the hate-America-firsters. He hits a nerve because he points out the logical & historical fallacies of their self-loathing.

This is good, as Biden assures us the Chinese are the good guys. No worries :

...our own diplomatic elite is often neither culturally nor politically diverse and may exaggerate the European Russian threat and in either condescendingly or politically correct fashion ignore the far greater Chinese challenge. As bad as Russian absorption of Crimea was, there were at least long historical and cultural ties between the two nations and a shared bloody history of resisting foreign conquests at iconic sieges such as Sevastopol. In contrast, China simply stole the far more strategically important Spratley Islands, ignored its neighbors’ claims, created military bases, and may soon adjudicate traffic in the South China Sea — and face no pushback of the sort accorded Putin.

Boy you guys luv you some Vlad.

.. ....& you're still ready to lead the 600 into the valley of death, ...to recover Crimea.

Really? where do you get that falsehood?
But, sure, an economic response to aggression was certainly appropriate.
Not, a 'hey, Crimea used to be part of Russia' response like we get from this knucklehead.

[OCanada]

China has raised 800 million from poverty. That is more than the total population of the USA. China still does not have enough domestic demand to absorb what it can produce. That production level courtesy of multinationals using its low costs to export to the world.

Those cheap costs have helped the Walmarts to squeeze prices, suppress wages and contribute to low inflation. These in turn contribute to keep the USA content with its two big deficits.

They are not stupid. The Plaza Accord shafted Japan and the SE Asia crisis which overthrew financial regulation in the Tigers and expose their countries to Wall Street and western banks. They learned. Probably the prime reason they won’t revalue their currency which the USA wants because it helps the USA not China. Multinationals are telling the Chinese if the revalue their currency they will relocate. Trump would like to force them out by raising costs of product to USA consumers.

Hard to imagine multinationals pull out of the world’s largest market. They might not ever be allowed back.

China has been finding alternative sources of product and trying to find new markets through initiatives like Belt and Road. No doubt both countries will have damage if the war isn’t prevented.

The USA is not as strong as it once was but I doubt Trunp believes it. China has taken advantage of intellectual property but then so did Japan and SK and even the USA as they try to build their economies. It would help a lot. So should the USA change its patent system.

In the event Xi and China str going to be difficult unless they believe they will lose power. China meanwhile has Asia thanks to the USA in its sphere of control.

[old salt]

VDH is a PITA to the hate-America-firsters. He hits a nerve because he points out the logical & historical fallacies of their self-loathing.

This is good, as Biden assures us the Chinese are the good guys. No worries :

...our own diplomatic elite is often neither culturally nor politically diverse and may exaggerate the European Russian threat and in either condescendingly or politically correct fashion ignore the far greater Chinese challenge. As bad as Russian absorption of Crimea was, there were at least long historical and cultural ties between the two nations and a shared bloody history of resisting foreign conquests at iconic sieges such as Sevastopol. In contrast, China simply stole the far more strategically important Spratley Islands, ignored its neighbors’ claims, created military bases, and may soon adjudicate traffic in the South China Sea — and face no pushback of the sort accorded Putin.

Boy you guys luv you some Vlad.

.. ....& you're still ready to lead the 600 into the valley of death, ...to recover Crimea.

Really? where do you get that falsehood?
But, sure, an economic response to aggression was certainly appropriate.
Not, a 'hey, Crimea used to be part of Russia' response like we get from this knucklehead.

So now that the appropriate economic response has been made, do we accept the obvious -- that Crimea is once again part of the nation state of Russia, as it has been for nearly all of modern history ? ...as we acknowledge that our ally Taiwan is part of China, so we can negotiate a modus vivendi.

[OCanada]

What appropriate response???

[MDlaxfan76]

VDH is a PITA to the hate-America-firsters. He hits a nerve because he points out the logical & historical fallacies of their self-loathing.

This is good, as Biden assures us the Chinese are the good guys. No worries :

...our own diplomatic elite is often neither culturally nor politically diverse and may exaggerate the European Russian threat and in either condescendingly or politically correct fashion ignore the far greater Chinese challenge. As bad as Russian absorption of Crimea was, there were at least long historical and cultural ties between the two nations and a shared bloody history of resisting foreign conquests at iconic sieges such as Sevastopol. In contrast, China simply stole the far more strategically important Spratley Islands, ignored its neighbors’ claims, created military bases, and may soon adjudicate traffic in the South China Sea — and face no pushback of the sort accorded Putin.

Boy you guys luv you some Vlad.

.. ....& you're still ready to lead the 600 into the valley of death, ...to recover Crimea.

Really? where do you get that falsehood?
But, sure, an economic response to aggression was certainly appropriate.
Not, a 'hey, Crimea used to be part of Russia' response like we get from this knucklehead.

So now that the appropriate economic response has been made, do we accept the obvious -- that Crimea is once again part of the nation state of Russia, as it has been for nearly all of modern history ? ...as we acknowledge that our ally Taiwan is part of China, so we can negotiate a modus vivendi.

Physical invasion is a huge deal, it shouldn't be swept under the rug as you Russia/Putin lovers apparently want to do.

Even more so in the context of the election interference aggression.

We're far from 'appropriate economic response'.
Much less the butt kissing our current PUTUS is so fond of doing.

[old salt]

VDH is a PITA to the hate-America-firsters. He hits a nerve because he points out the logical & historical fallacies of their self-loathing.

This is good, as Biden assures us the Chinese are the good guys. No worries :

...our own diplomatic elite is often neither culturally nor politically diverse and may exaggerate the European Russian threat and in either condescendingly or politically correct fashion ignore the far greater Chinese challenge. As bad as Russian absorption of Crimea was, there were at least long historical and cultural ties between the two nations and a shared bloody history of resisting foreign conquests at iconic sieges such as Sevastopol. In contrast, China simply stole the far more strategically important Spratley Islands, ignored its neighbors’ claims, created military bases, and may soon adjudicate traffic in the South China Sea — and face no pushback of the sort accorded Putin.

Boy you guys luv you some Vlad.

.. ....& you're still ready to lead the 600 into the valley of death, ...to recover Crimea.

Really? where do you get that falsehood?
But, sure, an economic response to aggression was certainly appropriate.
Not, a 'hey, Crimea used to be part of Russia' response like we get from this knucklehead.

So now that the appropriate economic response has been made, do we accept the obvious -- that Crimea is once again part of the nation state of Russia, as it has been for nearly all of modern history ? ...as we acknowledge that our ally Taiwan is part of China, so we can negotiate a modus vivendi.

Physical invasion is a huge deal, it shouldn't be swept under the rug as you Russia/Putin lovers apparently want to do.

Even more so in the context of the election interference aggression.

We're far from 'appropriate economic response'.
Much less the butt kissing our current PUTUS is so fond of doing.

What further economic response ? More sanctions which our allies object to, because they punish them as much. or more than Russia ?

This is a European issue. Why should we take the lead, rather than follow the lead of our EU allies ?
They want peaceful coexistence. This Cold War is an expensive burden for all parties.

Do you seriously think we'll ever be able to coerce Russia to leave Crimea ?

[MDlaxfan76]

VDH is a PITA to the hate-America-firsters. He hits a nerve because he points out the logical & historical fallacies of their self-loathing.

This is good, as Biden assures us the Chinese are the good guys. No worries :

...our own diplomatic elite is often neither culturally nor politically diverse and may exaggerate the European Russian threat and in either condescendingly or politically correct fashion ignore the far greater Chinese challenge. As bad as Russian absorption of Crimea was, there were at least long historical and cultural ties between the two nations and a shared bloody history of resisting foreign conquests at iconic sieges such as Sevastopol. In contrast, China simply stole the far more strategically important Spratley Islands, ignored its neighbors’ claims, created military bases, and may soon adjudicate traffic in the South China Sea — and face no pushback of the sort accorded Putin.

Boy you guys luv you some Vlad.

.. ....& you're still ready to lead the 600 into the valley of death, ...to recover Crimea.

Really? where do you get that falsehood?
But, sure, an economic response to aggression was certainly appropriate.
Not, a 'hey, Crimea used to be part of Russia' response like we get from this knucklehead.

So now that the appropriate economic response has been made, do we accept the obvious -- that Crimea is once again part of the nation state of Russia, as it has been for nearly all of modern history ? ...as we acknowledge that our ally Taiwan is part of China, so we can negotiate a modus vivendi.

Physical invasion is a huge deal, it shouldn't be swept under the rug as you Russia/Putin lovers apparently want to do.

Even more so in the context of the election interference aggression.

We're far from 'appropriate economic response'.
Much less the butt kissing our current PUTUS is so fond of doing.

What further economic response ? More sanctions which our allies object to, because they punish them as much. or more than Russia ?

This is a European issue. Why should we take the lead, rather than follow the lead of our EU allies ?
They want peaceful coexistence. This Cold War is an expensive burden for all parties.

Do you seriously think we'll ever be able to coerce Russia to leave Crimea ?

Nope, but we can sure as heck make it painfully obvious that meddling in democratic elections, here or with our allies, is going to be very costly. So, too would other physical aggression with their neighbors.

But, hey, I get it. Too scary for you.

[OCanada]

The Europeans do t have a problem with Russia sanctions over Crimea. It is also more than a European matter