Games Televised and Webcasted 2019

[wlaxnut]

More on SB/UMD: at the 8:27 mark of the first half, SB scores an apparent goal that is disallowed because the SB player entered the crease during follow through. Looking at the replay, it appears that the ball crossed the line before her foot came down in the crease. As always the announcers didn't take on the question of when the play is over. Obviously didn't matter for the outcome of this game -- I'm certain UMD would've won even if the goal had been allowed. But I'm certain this issue will pop up in a critical moment. Maybe not this year, but it will happen and people will finally start paying attention to it.

It has been discussed here in the forums. If you search the word “crease”, you’ll see some explanations.

[Badlands]

More on SB/UMD: at the 8:27 mark of the first half, SB scores an apparent goal that is disallowed because the SB player entered the crease during follow through. Looking at the replay, it appears that the ball crossed the line before her foot came down in the crease. As always the announcers didn't take on the question of when the play is over. Obviously didn't matter for the outcome of this game -- I'm certain UMD would've won even if the goal had been allowed. But I'm certain this issue will pop up in a critical moment. Maybe not this year, but it will happen and people will finally start paying attention to it.

It has been discussed here in the forums. If you search the word “crease”, you’ll see some explanations.

I’ve raised the timing issue several times, but it doesn’t generate much discussion. Maybe I’m the only one of the ten old guys who cares. I’ve seen discussions about whether someone was pushed into the crease or whether someone stepped into it at all but not whether she stepped in after the ball crossed the line. There’s plenty of discussion about the timing issue on the guys forum because they keep debating the dive rule. I think part of why this issue bugs me is because it highlights the general lack of analysis among announcers. I can’t remember an announcer asking about the timing issue even though goals are disallowed for crease violations quite often. They just accept that the goal was disallowed without stopping and asking “Didn’t the ball cross the line before she went in the crease? What do the rules say about this?” I think in many cases they don’t ask because they don’t want to reveal that they have no idea what the rule says. As I said, I’m sure that sooner or later it’ll come up at a critical moment in a critical game and people will act as if that’s the first time it’s ever been considered.

[wlaxnut]

More on SB/UMD: at the 8:27 mark of the first half, SB scores an apparent goal that is disallowed because the SB player entered the crease during follow through. Looking at the replay, it appears that the ball crossed the line before her foot came down in the crease. As always the announcers didn't take on the question of when the play is over. Obviously didn't matter for the outcome of this game -- I'm certain UMD would've won even if the goal had been allowed. But I'm certain this issue will pop up in a critical moment. Maybe not this year, but it will happen and people will finally start paying attention to it.

It has been discussed here in the forums. If you search the word “crease”, you’ll see some explanations.

I’ve raised the timing issue several times, but it doesn’t generate much discussion. Maybe I’m the only one of the ten old guys who cares. I’ve seen discussions about whether someone was pushed into the crease or whether someone stepped into it at all but not whether she stepped in after the ball crossed the line. There’s plenty of discussion about the timing issue on the guys forum because they keep debating the dive rule. I think part of why this issue bugs me is because it highlights the general lack of analysis among announcers. I can’t remember an announcer asking about the timing issue even though goals are disallowed for crease violations quite often. They just accept that the goal was disallowed without stopping and asking “Didn’t the ball cross the line before she went in the crease? What do the rules say about this?” I think in many cases they don’t ask because they don’t want to reveal that they have no idea what the rule says. As I said, I’m sure that sooner or later it’ll come up at a critical moment in a critical game and people will act as if that’s the first time it’s ever been considered.

I have asked this question directly to a prominent color commentator on the women’s side. She said the rule is you cannot enter the crease of your own doing. It doesn’t matter whether it’s before, during or after a goal. The only extenuating circumstance is if you get pushed by an opponent.

[Badlands]

OK, please ask her about the scenario where the ball goes in the goal, the shooter is tip toeing the line but eventually falls in the crease some 2-5 seconds after the ball has gone in. Maybe the goalie has already turned and raked the ball into her stick. Is that still a no goal? And if that’s a no goal, then if a player steps in the crease 10 seconds after the goal while celebrating with her teammates, that shouldn’t be a goal either because apparently there is no time limit to the prohibition on trespassing in the crease. I’m not trying to be difficult and I appreciate your willingness to engage on the issue, but I’m just not buying that there is no timing consideration at all. Just doesn’t make sense.

[wlaxnut]

OK, please ask her about the scenario where the ball goes in the goal, the shooter is tip toeing the line but eventually falls in the crease some 2-5 seconds after the ball has gone in. Maybe the goalie has already turned and raked the ball into her stick. Is that still a no goal? And if that’s a no goal, then if a player steps in the crease 10 seconds after the goal while celebrating with her teammates, that shouldn’t be a goal either because apparently there is no time limit to the prohibition on trespassing in the crease. I’m not trying to be difficult and I appreciate your willingness to engage on the issue, but I’m just not buying that there is no timing consideration at all. Just doesn’t make sense.

Will do. I’m going to try to find the NCAAWLAX rule book online as well.

[wlaxnut]

OK, please ask her about the scenario where the ball goes in the goal, the shooter is tip toeing the line but eventually falls in the crease some 2-5 seconds after the ball has gone in. Maybe the goalie has already turned and raked the ball into her stick. Is that still a no goal? And if that’s a no goal, then if a player steps in the crease 10 seconds after the goal while celebrating with her teammates, that shouldn’t be a goal either because apparently there is no time limit to the prohibition on trespassing in the crease. I’m not trying to be difficult and I appreciate your willingness to engage on the issue, but I’m just not buying that there is no timing consideration at all. Just doesn’t make sense.

Here’s what I got back:

“I have asked officials about this and what I have heard back is that at NO time can an attacker enter the crease unless she was pushed. Doesn't matter if ball in back of net/in goalies stick etc... A "million years" ago we used to describe the goal circle like a brick wall...the attackers cannot ever go in. Obviously now you can follow through with your stick, but you should not step in or on the line.”

[Badlands]

Thanks for the response. I sure hope the championship game doesn’t come down to a team tying the score in the last seconds only to have the goal nullified because 90 seconds after the shot one of the offensive players steps in the crease during the celebration.

BTW, please thank SSB for her responses and tell her that I hope she enjoys the new vacuum.

[DMac]

Thought about you during this one, Badlands, click on at the 55 mark. I can't find a better clip of the goal but when the instant replay was shown during the game from a different angle you could clearly see that Hawryschuk was in the crease with at least her left hand (maybe more parts too) as she's sliding on the turf. Wasn't pushed, no one touched her (mind you, I'm not complaining about the goal being allowed ).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcQhJzj1RkM

[wlaxnut]

Thanks for the response. I sure hope the championship game doesn’t come down to a team tying the score in the last seconds only to have the goal nullified because 90 seconds after the shot one of the offensive players steps in the crease during the celebration.

BTW, please thank SSB for her responses and tell her that I hope she enjoys the new vacuum.

You're welcome. This was also added as an afterthought:

"It should be cut and dry. But seems to be an increase in fouls of pushing players in. One college coach I have spoke with thinks the offensive players get away with running into the crease and would like to see it called much better."

[Turtles Lax]

Turtles-Pioneers game is set for 7:00P Saturday.

What moron came up with that moronic idea? (Yes, TL knows that sentence is redundant.)

TL suspects it is due to Denver travel, but why can’t they come east a day early?

TL cannot remember a Saturday night game ever. Certainly not a tournament game.

Okay...rant off.

Peace, out.

TL

PS: Game is on teevee...the BTN mothership.

tl

[wlaxnut]

Turtles-Pioneers game is set for 7:00P Saturday.

What moron came up with that moronic idea? (Yes, TL knows that sentence is redundant.) Still funny, though.

TL suspects it is due to Denver travel, but why can’t they come east a day early?

TL cannot remember a Saturday night game ever. Certainly not a tournament game.

Okay...rant off.

Peace, out.

TL

PS: Game is on teevee...the BTN mothership.

tl

Yep--trying to sell more tickets, if you will. Put the game on in prime time to entice more viewers, perhaps. Too bad they didn't have a better matchup. Denver's going to get creamed. I doubt it will be much of a game past the first few minutes. Different folks "in the know" have been talking about how great Denver's defense is. They shut down USC and Michigan. Good luck trying to replicate that against the Terps. HA!

[njbill]

I took a look at the women’s college rules (link below) and found the following in Rule 4, sec. 10 (p. 38):

SECTION 10. A goal is not scored when:
. . . .
e. The player shooting has stepped on or into the goal circle, or any other player of the attacking team has entered the goal circle, unless as the result of a foul.

Note that Rule 6, sec. 16 (p. 61) says:

SECTION 16. Outside of the goalkeeper, one of the following criteria must be met in order for a player to enter or to have one’s feet, body or stick on or over the goal circle at any time:

a. On a shot, the shooter may follow through with their stick over the goal circle; however, the shooter’s feet must not touch the goal circle. The shooting motion must be initiated from outside the goal circle.

There is no mention in this rule of an exception if the attacker entered the circle as the result of a foul. Careful drafting would include that proviso here, but nonetheless it seems to be the clear intent of the overall rules that the attacker doesn’t commit a goal circle foul if she is fouled (and pushed into the circle) after she has scored.

A closely related provision is Rule 6, sec. 40 (p. 68) which says:

SECTION 40. If there is a whistle blown for a defensive foul simultaneous with or immediately following a shot and the shot results in a goal, the goal shall count, and the penalty shall not be administered, unless the foul is a cardable foul.

So what happens if the shooter is pushed into the circle as the result of incidental contact that doesn’t rise to the level of a foul? A strict reading of the rules would suggest the goal be disallowed. In practice, however, it seems to me that officials bend over backwards to allow goals if there is even slight contact between the shooter and a defender which could possibly have caused the shooter to enter the circle. Oftentimes, it seems to me that the shooter has built up such a head of steam that she would have entered the circle anyway, regardless of contact from a defender, but it doesn’t seem the refs make any effort to evaluate any "but for" causal connection between the contact and entering the circle.

I couldn’t find anything addressing the timing issue, that is, how long after a goal is scored must the shooter remain out of the goal circle to avoid having the goal disallowed. Arguably, this is a gap in the rules which perhaps should be addressed. I would think a commonsense approach should be employed. Two possibilities occur to me. One, the cut off would be when the officials have signaled a goal. After that, anyone is free to enter the circle until play resumes. Two, a foul would only occur if the shooter’s direct momentum from the shot or dodge to goal caused her to enter the circle. Once she has redirected her body by stopping or veering away from the circle, she is free to come back to the circle and enter it as part of a post goal celebration or stick throw down.

Wlaxnut wrote:

"It should be cut and dry. But seems to be an increase in fouls of pushing players in. One college coach I have spoke with thinks the offensive players get away with running into the crease and would like to see it called much better."

I completely agree. It should be cut and dried. I don’t see 1/100 the college games SSB sees, but I suspect this increase may be a by-product of the trend towards more and more aggressive play which has been going on for quite some time. I also agree offensive players get away with running into the circle. I only really notice it in games I see on TV and then only if there is a good camera angle. Unless you are watching a game in person from behind the goal, and are close to the end line, I think it is difficult or impossible for a spectator to really see if someone has stepped into the circle. In a high school game a few days ago, the team I follow had two goals disallowed (in a game that ended up going into OT) because of goal circle violations. I couldn’t begin to see whether the calls were good or not.

Sometimes the rules folks plug the holes as they did a few years ago after North Carolina was called for delay of game when they were running players in and out before a draw. I think it was the NCAA semis or finals, not sure. But there was no rule that expressly prohibited what UNC did. So they changed the rule to make it clear when teams could no longer substitute in conjunction with a draw set up.

My belief is that while those who write the rules are certainly very experienced in playing, officiating, and administering the game, they are not experienced in writing rules, regulations, and the like which is why there are gaps and areas of confusion in some circumstances. In fairness, this is true of most sports rules and isn’t just limited to wlax.

https://www.coalacrosse.org/assets/2018 ... 20BOOK.pdf

[wlaxnut]

Turtles-Pioneers game is set for 7:00P Saturday.

What moron came up with that moronic idea? (Yes, TL knows that sentence is redundant.)

TL suspects it is due to Denver travel, but why can’t they come east a day early?

TL cannot remember a Saturday night game ever. Certainly not a tournament game.

Okay...rant off.

Peace, out.

TL

PS: Game is on teevee...the BTN mothership.

tl

The Prime Time matchup this weekend, as we all know, is #4 Northwestern vs #5 Syracuse. THAT'S the game that should have been put on at 7pm. The frickin Terps. They get put on at 7 regardless of who they're playing because they're Maryland. (insert wet raspberry)

[DMac]

a. On a shot, the shooter may follow through with their stick over the goal circle; however, the shooter’s feet must not touch the goal circle. The shooting motion must be initiated from outside the goal circle.

This must be restricted to the air space in the goal circle I would guess though, right? If the stick were to touch the ground within the circle, on a follow through while falling to the ground for example, that goal would be disallowed (even if the ball passed the plane of the goal before the stick touched)?

[njbill]

I would read it the same way, unless the stick contacted the ground as the result of a defensive foul.

[aubartolomei]

How about in the 'televised and webcasted' thread, we take a moment to commend BTN for putting two games on their national network (both MD games, I know how you feel about them, save it for another day) versus espn, which televised every mens game in the entire tournament, but cant even be bothered to put the womens semi/finals on national tv and are relegated to just streaming.

[DMac]

Tip o' the hat to BTN and I feel your pain aubart. Sad truth is though, beyond the 9 old farts and one middle aged gal there aren't a whole lot of people who care about wlax. Have said it many times, I don't get it. Can see some awfully good wlax here in Cuse, weather (minus this past week end) is never an issue, yet you get merely hundreds in the stands. Fortunately there are channels like BTN and others where we can get most of these games. The wlax world needs a better hype and sizzle committee, they need to figure out a way to build more interest and sell their product.

[wlaxnut]

How about in the 'televised and webcasted' thread, we take a moment to commend BTN for putting two games on their national network (both MD games, I know how you feel about them, save it for another day) versus espn, which televised every mens game in the entire tournament, but cant even be bothered to put the womens semi/finals on national tv and are relegated to just streaming.

I am grateful for BTN and their paid streaming service in addition. There's some great women's lacrosse coming from the Big 10 that they broadcast exclusively. I'm also grateful to ESPN3 and their streaming service though. That's production crews, cameras, field mics, etc for every NCAA tournament game that isn't broadcast/streamed on the BTN platform so far. ESPNU will televise the replays of the women's semifinals the morning of the championship.

I'm coming around to see things from seacoaster's perspective. I'm grateful for all the games that do get televised/streamed. I don't care that the sport doesn't get great ratings as long as they continue the coverage they already provide. I'm grateful that I live a couple towns over from Boston College and I can attend the games free of charge at the friendly confines of BC's lacrosse and soccer field. I can see great ACC action from a very close vantage point for free. Pretty amazing. This is the golden age of women's lacrosse. It isn't reflected in the ratings, and it may never be, but the sport is exploding in high schools and colleges across the nation. The ratings may or may not come. No doubt the sport is coming on.

[wlaxnut]

(both MD games, I know how you feel about them, save it for another day)

For the record, I have nothing against Maryland. They could just as well be Georgetown, or Ohio State, or Brown. I just get tired of the same team winning all the time. I have nothing against Maryland, in fact two of my favorite players in women’s lacrosse are on that team – Jen Giles and Kali Hartshorn. I have nothing against Maryland, I just want to see some new blood in the upper echelon for a change.

[Nigel]

(both MD games, I know how you feel about them, save it for another day)

For the record, I have nothing against Maryland...I have nothing against Maryland...I have nothing against Maryland.

Are ya sure?