Cornell 2024

[Lamotta]

Kevin Brown has a lot of lacrosse to cover in one weekend. No way he watched that game, particularly the second half, closely. It was the most disjointed, unexplainable sequence of events I have watched in 40 years of lacrosse. Im a Cornell homer and was sitting with Denver fans. At the end, my buddy, a Denver fan, got up and chuckled and said,” fun game between 2 equally matched teams.”

[Chousnake]

Honest question: do you think this topic of discussion (bad/terrible/worst-in-decades officiating changing the result of this game) will get any traction outside of this forum?

I don't think it will. The story on Inside Lacrosse makes minimal mention of penalties (Confidence, Composure & Connell's Eventual Winner Lift Pios Past Cornell in Shootout Thriller >>>https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/ ... ller/62673). The title tells you all you need to know.

All of us think this is a big deal, but I am skeptical than many others will notice.

I think you are right, but that's the way it is in lacrosse for most teams outside the pampered ACC/B10. When Hopkins lost a game a few years ago in Syracuse because of a goal waived off for being a dive, it was talked about for weeks. If Cornell beat Notre Dame this coming March 17 getting the same calls that DU got, we would never ever hear the end of it. For some reason, the Ivies get no respect in the lax world and the ACC and B10 are forever favored. I never heard whining and complaining about the NCAA Tournament selection like there was in 2022 and it was incessant and lasted more than a year.

Another thing adding to the silence is that lax is a niche sport and is not covered like other sports. My guess is Buczek and Stevens were and are livid, as was Kirst - a top 3-4 player in the sports, but there were no reporters running to interview them after the game to get their opinions. Do you think the Inside Lacrosse reporter who wrote that story - Kevin Brown - even saw the game? He also wrote the story on today's ND- Town game. Was he in Denver yesterday and South Bend today? doubtful. And if he was there and interviewed Buczek and/or Kirst it appears they weren't talking. There are no quotes from any Cornell representative in that story. And I don't think there are post game press conferences for regular season games. The only people who saw it and were upset were the Cornell fans at the game and the few diehards like me who shelled out the $8.95 to stream it. It's an internal Cornell gripe and when we bring it up again in May during the tournament selection process, we'll be told to shut up because a loss is a loss (unless you are in the ACC or the B10 and it's a "good loss" which means a loss to another ACC or B10 team). The ACC fanboys that cover the sport in more detail didn't see the game and will never see it and don't care because it was Big East vs Ivy and is just not that important to them.

I'm sure you are correct that the story was written based on a box score and not based watching and analyzing the game.

I just saw that there is a USA Lacrosse story: PIONEERS POWER UP IN FOURTH QUARTER TO DEFEAT CORNELL https://www.usalacrosse.com/magazine/co ... at-cornell. Again, minimal mention of penalties. Instead, the credit goes to DU for being composed and making a great comeback. (To be clear, I'm actually a DU fan against any other opponent! ) At least this story includes a quote from Buczek:

Big Red coach Connor Buczek said his team maintained solid offensive intensity but needs to improve on discipline moving forward.

“Kudos to that Denver team,” Buczek said. “They’re well-coached, able to execute in a lot of situations and they fight. Every time we opened that gap they seemed to claw away at it. We need to get better at closing out some situations and maybe be a little more disciplined and stay out of the box. Obviously, that contributed at points to their run. Can’t take anything away from Denver because they’re a great team, but we need to keep getting better and hopefully this was a good learning moment for our team.”

Very diplomatic as you would expect. We can read between the lines. I do like the sense of ownership. The team and coaches can complain about the refs all day and all night, but they can't control how the game is officiated. (Maybe influence it a little.) They can control their own actions and reactions.

Buczek is a class act. I’m so thrilled he’s Cornell’s coach. He’s got nothing to gain by calling out the officials.

[laxfan1313]

Based upon the way Cornell got hosed, the polls should rank the Big Red ahead of Denver this week.

[VeryRustyRed]

FYI - if no IL reporter is at a game, it's not unusual for IL to use a feed supplied from the the home team (presumably from the Sports Info department). Clearly, the IL article did not at all reflect the reasons for Denver's "comeback" and the ultimate score.
Personally, I had zero expectation that it would.

On a somewhat related note, I did not watch yesterday's Notre Dame - Georgetown game, but I'm told the 2nd half featured a number of 2 minute unreleasable penalties (high hits)...against Notre Dame. I think we'll continue to see these calls. It's an effort to force coaches to "coach up" the issue, much the same as targeting in football. As I previously posted, I strongly believe that the combination of a) a 2 minute penalty, b) the penalty being unreleasable, and c) the man-down team only allowed one wing on the ensuing face-off is far too harsh. It's a triple wammy. My God, in football, the penalty for targeting is a ONE TIME 15 yards and an ejection. The penalty is one-time, 15 yards; it's not continuous.
AND PERHAPS MOST IMPORTANT GIVEN THE SEVERITY OF THE PENALTY, THE PLAY IS REVIEWED VIA VIDEO.

[FMUBart]

Hobart facing a Big Red squad that got hosed out west...doesn't bode well for the Statesmen

As an aside, when a defender to ready to hit an attacker and the attacker ducks, how can the defender avoid a "high hit"? Commonsense has left the building. Also would like to see the crease dive--regardless of direction--eliminated. An attacker should never be allowed in the crease unless pushed by the defender. The whole ice cream cone crease is ridiculous and actually encourages the crease dive, imho.

[oldbartman]

Hobart facing a Big Red squad that got hosed out west...doesn't bode well for the Statesmen

As an aside, when a defender to ready to hit an attacker and the attacker ducks, how can the defender avoid a "high hit"? Commonsense has left the building. Also would like to see the crease dive--regardless of direction--eliminated. An attacker should never be allowed in the crease unless pushed by the defender. The whole ice cream cone crease is ridiculous and actually encourages the crease dive, imho.

+1 on the above. Terry Corcoran had great career (should be HoF) diving across the front of the crease and not though or landing in in it. Take the extra step as Coach Schmidt would tell us. Now back to my annual "hating Cornell" for the next couple of days.

[3rdPersonPlural]

But Cornell's coach thumped the side of the rink with a hockey stick to get the referees' attention. There was no apparent cursing or arguing, much less an unreleasable penalty for bad sportsmanship. Instead, the coach and referees had a civil discussion. The coach explained that he thought SLU was offsides on the scored goal. The referees then agreed to review the play, and after a very short review of the video, they declared the formerly game-winning-goal to be a no-goal. Cornell would go on to win in the subsequent shootout. With the video evidence, neither Cornell nor SLU fans had much to complain about the officiating.

Which would you prefer?

Maybe it's time for lacrosse to enter the 21st century and make coaches challenges and instant replay an integral part of the game.

As a ref who spent 20 years with a flag and a whistle (retired this year), I agree completely that some sort of instant replay at all levels (except maybe u14 and down) would help.

Stuff happens so fast in this game. Nonetheless refs can't shrug and say 'that's what I saw' and whistle the play back in while keeping respect.

I would have loved to have a quick replay to reference, and I wouldn't have been embarrassed or feeling diminished by that.

Safe, fair, and fu. In that order. The ego of the ref is not involved here

[10stone5]

Hobart facing a Big Red squad that got hosed out west...

doesn't bode well for the Statesmen

Glad you said it,

‘cause I didn’t want to.

[mdk01]

FYI - if no IL reporter is at a game, it's not unusual for IL to use a feed supplied from the the home team (presumably from the Sports Info department). Clearly, the IL article did not at all reflect the reasons for Denver's "comeback" and the ultimate score.
Personally, I had zero expectation that it would.

On a somewhat related note, I did not watch yesterday's Notre Dame - Georgetown game, but I'm told the 2nd half featured a number of 2 minute unreleasable penalties (high hits)...against Notre Dame. I think we'll continue to see these calls. It's an effort to force coaches to "coach up" the issue, much the same as targeting in football. As I previously posted, I strongly believe that the combination of a) a 2 minute penalty, b) the penalty being unreleasable, and c) the man-down team only allowed one wing on the ensuing face-off is far too harsh. It's a triple wammy. My God, in football, the penalty for targeting is a ONE TIME 15 yards and an ejection. The penalty is one-time, 15 yards; it's not continuous.
AND PERHAPS MOST IMPORTANT GIVEN THE SEVERITY OF THE PENALTY, THE PLAY IS REVIEWED VIA VIDEO.

I saw the game and I believe Georgetown got 1 too. In fact. I've been seeing an increase in all the games this spring. In the past, if the hit was with the shoulders and started below the head it wasn't called at all. Most of the other times it was 1 minute. I wonder if they've been told to crack down.

[wgdsr]

FYI - if no IL reporter is at a game, it's not unusual for IL to use a feed supplied from the the home team (presumably from the Sports Info department). Clearly, the IL article did not at all reflect the reasons for Denver's "comeback" and the ultimate score.
Personally, I had zero expectation that it would.

On a somewhat related note, I did not watch yesterday's Notre Dame - Georgetown game, but I'm told the 2nd half featured a number of 2 minute unreleasable penalties (high hits)...against Notre Dame. I think we'll continue to see these calls. It's an effort to force coaches to "coach up" the issue, much the same as targeting in football. As I previously posted, I strongly believe that the combination of a) a 2 minute penalty, b) the penalty being unreleasable, and c) the man-down team only allowed one wing on the ensuing face-off is far too harsh. It's a triple wammy. My God, in football, the penalty for targeting is a ONE TIME 15 yards and an ejection. The penalty is one-time, 15 yards; it's not continuous.
AND PERHAPS MOST IMPORTANT GIVEN THE SEVERITY OF THE PENALTY, THE PLAY IS REVIEWED VIA VIDEO.

you believe getting a player thrown out of the game is much more lenient than a 2 minute penalty? if anything, if they're going to use insta replay for head shots, there should be verbiage in there as well if the hit-ee's head moves last second to cause it to be direct contact... and thus, could be ruled one minute.

other than that, i've seen about 7 or 8 this year of the 2 minute direct variety. all but 1 of them was earned.

[VeryRustyRed]

I have no problem with a two minute penalty. My problem is that the unreleasablecall, over two minutes, can lead to multiple goals. Also, a non-front line player (e.g., a 2nd line middie, a ss, a number two LSM is very different from losing a front-line player (for some portion of a game).
I've also seen slashes this season called for 2 minutes that were not more than a non-intentional grazing of the face guard. But a lot worse not called at all (think the Wirtheim no call and the neck "coral" against Chris Davis.

[wgdsr]

I have no problem with a two minute penalty. My problem is that the unreleasablecall, over two minutes, can lead to multiple goals. Also, a non-front line player (e.g., a 2nd line middie, a ss, a number two LSM is very different from losing a front-line player (for some portion of a game).
I've also seen slashes this season called for 2 minutes that were not more than a non-intentional grazing of the face guard. But a lot worse not called at all (think the Wirtheim no call and the neck "coral" against Chris Davis.

the comparison was to football. presumably a guy on the field that's valuable. i can't recall the last time a college lacrosse player was ejected from a game, tho i'm sure it's happened. it happens all the time in football nowadays. there's more hitting, of course.

imo, if you want to hit you need to hit lower. it's typically someone in a pretty defenseless position. they can go out for weeks (or more) with a concussion. 2 minutes can be pretty tame in some cases as refs are reticent to toss anyone, and also rarely give 3. and it's not like man up units score at 80% for the 30-60 second varieties. there's often not much of a bump vs 6 v 6 efficiency. do the crime, do the time. i'm sure we won't agree.

[PulpExposure]

I saw the game and I believe Georgetown got 1 too. In fact. I've been seeing an increase in all the games this spring. In the past, if the hit was with the shoulders and started below the head it wasn't called at all. Most of the other times it was 1 minute. I wonder if they've been told to crack down.

Yeah they got a 2 min unreleasable at the end of the 3rd. All 3 penalties called were clear hits to the head. Right calls according to the rules, but honestly 2 of the 3 penalties I wouldn't have called them 2 min unreleasables, but instead incidental as the player lowered their level and the defender ended up hitting them high. The Chris Kavanaugh foul in the 4th though? Dirty.

Can see it at 7:04 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5tylg4c27E

Looked like he was aiming his shoulder at the guys head as the GU kid was going for the ground ball.

Right. ESPN reeducation in progress now.

Not dirty, I mean gritty. Sorry.

[Chousnake]

This is an interesting discussion, but almost all of the the bad calls vs Cornell were not high hits. That was not the issue. The most egregious call, non-call, overreaction was the Kirst in the crease sequence where the only player hit was Kirst, but Cornell ended up down two men because of what was apparently said to the officials. Officials need to be a little more thick skinned than that. That call was absurd (no matter what was said).

None of the calls vs Cornell in 4th quarter involved hits to the head. They were just blown possession calls and a weak tripping call.

Wirtheim got hit high and hard and late in the first few minutes with no call vs DU. A two minute non-releasable there would have been nice for Cornell and would have been consistent with the way the game was called in the second half.

Cornell defenseman Dooley got a two minute non-releasable penalty in the 3rd quarter for a body check that was rough. I watched it again today and it did not appear to be above the shoulder from what I can see. It looked like a one minute penalty to me.

[joewillie78]

This is an interesting discussion, but almost all of the the bad calls vs Cornell were not high hits. That was not the issue. The most egregious call, non-call, overreaction was the Kirst in the crease sequence where the only player hit was Kirst, but Cornell ended up down two men because of what was apparently said to the officials. Officials need to be a little more thick skinned than that. That call was absurd (no matter what was said).

None of the calls vs Cornell in 4th quarter involved hits to the head. They were just blown possession calls and a weak tripping call.

Wirtheim got hit high and hard and late in the first few minutes with no call vs DU. A two minute non-releasable there would have been nice for Cornell and would have been consistent with the way the game was called in the second half.

Cornell defenseman Dooley got a two minute non-releasable penalty in the 3rd quarter for a body check that was rough. I watched it again today and it did not appear to be above the shoulder from what I can see. It looked like a one minute penalty to me.

It's just brutal to win on the road. That's why road wins are so incredibly important.
All the cards are stacked against you:
1. Travel
2. Unfamiliar playing field
3. The Crowd and fans energy for their team
4. The officiating that normally favors the home team.

These are just things I accept, and why a road win is GOLD.

That is why I will always, as a Cornell fan be forever scarred by the Cornell win AT NOTRE DAME, I believe in 2019, and ND gets in over Cornell. We beat them at THEIR place. Sheesh, what more do we have to do?

Gobigred
Joewillie78

[mfp]

All right… I’m mentally coming to terms with the reality of the penalties and the loss. So a new line of questions for all of you…

Any good coach is going to look for things to build upon and things to improve. So, if you were a Cornell coach, what are 2-3 things you think the team did well and can build on? Aside from penalties, what are 2-3 things you think the team did poorly and can improve?

[Ezra White]

This is an interesting discussion, but almost all of the the bad calls vs Cornell were not high hits. That was not the issue. The most egregious call, non-call, overreaction was the Kirst in the crease sequence where the only player hit was Kirst, but Cornell ended up down two men because of what was apparently said to the officials. Officials need to be a little more thick skinned than that. That call was absurd (no matter what was said).

I checked the rule book, and unsportsmanlike can be 1, 2, or 3 minutes unreleasable. IMHO with the game situation what it was and Kirst no-doubt claiming he was pushed into the crease, initially the ref should have calmly issued a warning. Only if Kirst persisted, should he have been given a 1-minute penalty.

There needs to be a way for coaches and captains to let a ref know a mistake may have occurred, without this being by definition "unsportsmanlike conduct" punishable by up to an unreleasable penalty of up to 3 minutes. Smack another guy in the head with your stick: yes; hurt the ref's feelings, no.

[Ezra White]

All right… I’m mentally coming to terms with the reality of the penalties and the loss. So a new line of questions for all of you…

Any good coach is going to look for things to build upon and things to improve. So, if you were a Cornell coach, what are 2-3 things you think the team did well and can build on? Aside from penalties, what are 2-3 things you think the team did poorly and can improve?

Hard for me to judge because I didn't spring to travel out to Denver or to subscribe to Denver's TV show. But I did listen to the broadcast, and here are a few ideas.

• Man-down
• Dealing with bad calls
• Clear and ride

[Chousnake]

All right… I’m mentally coming to terms with the reality of the penalties and the loss. So a new line of questions for all of you…

Any good coach is going to look for things to build upon and things to improve. So, if you were a Cornell coach, what are 2-3 things you think the team did well and can build on? Aside from penalties, what are 2-3 things you think the team did poorly and can improve?

I don't think penalties are a problem. Those calls were garbage.

I see three areas that need work:

1. How to win face-offs without Cascadden. This is a huge loss. Psyllos more than held his own against a top FOGO vs Denver before struggling (mainly because most of the late face offs were with no wings because of penalties). Hopefully Petrakis regains some confidence after a rough 23 season. However, if Psyllos and Petrakis struggle, Buczek should not hesitate to give freshman Ricci a shot. He was very good in high school and dominated Garden City in the NYS title game.

2. The defense misses Adler and needs to tighten up. They are giving up 15 goals a game (with the understanding that DU was gifted 7 goals on Saturday). Losing Bozzi to a shoulder injury doesn't help.

3. Knust has played well in the first half of both games, but slipped some in the 2nd half. Again, the DU game was absurd and he faced a man-down shooting gallery for a good portion of the 2nd half. But if this continues, Freshman Tully is highly regarded and may warrant a look.

[Chousnake]

This is an interesting discussion, but almost all of the the bad calls vs Cornell were not high hits. That was not the issue. The most egregious call, non-call, overreaction was the Kirst in the crease sequence where the only player hit was Kirst, but Cornell ended up down two men because of what was apparently said to the officials. Officials need to be a little more thick skinned than that. That call was absurd (no matter what was said).

I checked the rule book, and unsportsmanlike can be 1, 2, or 3 minutes unreleasable. IMHO with the game situation what it was and Kirst no-doubt claiming he was pushed into the crease, initially the ref should have calmly issued a warning. Only if Kirst persisted, should he have been given a 1-minute penalty.

There needs to be a way for coaches and captains to let a ref know a mistake may have occurred, without this being by definition "unsportsmanlike conduct" punishable by up to an unreleasable penalty of up to 3 minutes. Smack another guy in the head with your stick: yes; hurt the ref's feelings, no.

Spot on. Kirst should have been issued a warning. And with some of the behavior I've seen from coaches over the years - Tierney, Petro, and Corrigan head the list, I'm surprised that Buczek did or said anything to justify an additional two minute non-releasable penalty.