MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 12:30 pmYes, that's a fair statement that many Americans, though only some quite heavily and most less so, experienced that trauma. And it had a real effect. And some "counterproductive" decisions, too.
There are all sorts of of traumas that people experience, indeed most people know someone who has experienced major traumas, if not directly. Often, though, we are unaware of the traumas someone we know suffered.
Sometimes these traumas are super personal, eg rape, incest, assault, etc...others are more communal, mass murder events, police violence, mob riots, etc...some are based in ideologies that target and terrorize wide swaths of people based on religion, ethnicity, race, gender...
... I think the trauma of 911, and America's reaction to it led to nothing but bad decisions. in the short term.
The trauma of 9/11 vs. the generational trauma that Jews have experienced is dramatically different. For that matter, the trauma the Palestinians have faced and are facing vs. the generational trauma of the Jews is dramatically different. My point isn't to have a trauma contest. I just don't want to lose sight of the depth and breadth of the trauma that Jews have and continue to experience. There's a reason why the Jews need Israel. The need for the Jews to have Israel is a deep, deep, very real need.
.... so the depth of that need should of course exempt Israel of any blame, accountability for the number of Palestinians killed in this war. I am not buying that, and its pretty clear fewer and fewer people in the world are willing to buy that. Israel has already lost the PR phase of the war or very close to it.
Well then my original question still stands. How much violence is too much? Hamas obviously planned and prepared for this massacre for a long time. They deliberately set up import tunnel and strategic facilities right where it put the Palestinians people in greatest danger. You have no problem with them locating them under hospitals, schools, mosques and other locations that would inevitably put Palestinians directly in the line of fire. They knew damn well what the Israeli response would be. It was exactly as brutal as it needed to be. The Israeli army underestimated how many tunnels there are. Over 400 miles of tunnels in a narrow strip of land 6 miles wide and 25 miles long. That is one hell of an engineering feet. I wonder where they got the heavy equipment and technology to pull that off? The vast majority of Palestinians either didn't know or condoned what Hamas was doing by keeping their mouths closed. War is hell and innocent people will die in large numbers. Many more are yet to die. If your aware of a better way to root out the Hamas terrorists who planned and executed this massacre then please share it. They planned this for a very long time. The fact they had the foresight to booby trap many of these sophisticated tunnels took a long time and took a lot of thought. Hell in some sections the explosives were built into the walls. They got the results they wanted. They arranged it so their fighters are totally blended in with the Palestinian people. These casualties are something Hamas planned and actually is vital to their success.
The funny thing about blaming all Palestinian deaths on Hamas, you know how you and lots of others claim Hamas were holding Palestinian's hostage and this is what caused their death. The bulk of the aerial bombs used were 1000 and 2000 lb bombs according to US intelligence. That's a lot of bomb for a densely populated city if you are trying to kill Hamas and spare the innocent Palestinians. Big F*ing bombs! US Military had advocated for 250 lb and in fact at the start of the war had shipped them a supply of 250s. Think they have stopped using 2000s based on blowback from US military.
This according to CNN, NYT and Business Insider in early November. Lots of articles from all over the place since early November through January.
This is where your degree in physics should come in handy for you. Big bombs are more effective than little bombs when the targets are hiding in subterranean reinforced tunnels constructed to protect the people hiding out in them. The icing on the cake is locating those structures under hospitals, schools and mosques etc so you can bemoan the deaths of innocent Palestinians. You don't seem to be bothered by that all that much. All of your energy is focused on your hatred for Bibi. So what is the strategy Israel employs in the war in Gaza when Bibi is gone?? The war isn't going away and the next leader of Israel will still have to deal with it. Any solution has to give the Israeli people the assurance that Hamas will never be able to repeat what Hamas did on October 7.
... the US military disagrees that using bigger bombs is the way to go. Precision 250s are what the US military is calling for. Speaking of physics even your limited education should be able to understand bigger bombs make bigger holes and in a high population density battlefield kills a lot more people!! By the way, the 2000 ibs bombs where not precision deliver types. The 250s US gave Israel are.
My limited limited education doesn't include my understanding of what ordnance will work and what ordnance will not. 250 pounders are ineffective at penetrating hardened targets buried deep underground. You think there is a reason why Hamas buried these reinforced bunkers deep underground on top of schools, hospitals and mosques?? Do you realize the US is still working feverishly to develop deep penetrating ordnance to eliminate hardened targets buried underground and reinforced to the max. You might as well be dropping tennis balls instead of 250 pound bombs. Both will be equally as effective.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 12:30 pmYes, that's a fair statement that many Americans, though only some quite heavily and most less so, experienced that trauma. And it had a real effect. And some "counterproductive" decisions, too.
There are all sorts of of traumas that people experience, indeed most people know someone who has experienced major traumas, if not directly. Often, though, we are unaware of the traumas someone we know suffered.
Sometimes these traumas are super personal, eg rape, incest, assault, etc...others are more communal, mass murder events, police violence, mob riots, etc...some are based in ideologies that target and terrorize wide swaths of people based on religion, ethnicity, race, gender...
... I think the trauma of 911, and America's reaction to it led to nothing but bad decisions. in the short term.
The trauma of 9/11 vs. the generational trauma that Jews have experienced is dramatically different. For that matter, the trauma the Palestinians have faced and are facing vs. the generational trauma of the Jews is dramatically different. My point isn't to have a trauma contest. I just don't want to lose sight of the depth and breadth of the trauma that Jews have and continue to experience. There's a reason why the Jews need Israel. The need for the Jews to have Israel is a deep, deep, very real need.
.... so the depth of that need should of course exempt Israel of any blame, accountability for the number of Palestinians killed in this war. I am not buying that, and its pretty clear fewer and fewer people in the world are willing to buy that. Israel has already lost the PR phase of the war or very close to it.
Well then my original question still stands. How much violence is too much? Hamas obviously planned and prepared for this massacre for a long time. They deliberately set up import tunnel and strategic facilities right where it put the Palestinians people in greatest danger. You have no problem with them locating them under hospitals, schools, mosques and other locations that would inevitably put Palestinians directly in the line of fire. They knew damn well what the Israeli response would be. It was exactly as brutal as it needed to be. The Israeli army underestimated how many tunnels there are. Over 400 miles of tunnels in a narrow strip of land 6 miles wide and 25 miles long. That is one hell of an engineering feet. I wonder where they got the heavy equipment and technology to pull that off? The vast majority of Palestinians either didn't know or condoned what Hamas was doing by keeping their mouths closed. War is hell and innocent people will die in large numbers. Many more are yet to die. If your aware of a better way to root out the Hamas terrorists who planned and executed this massacre then please share it. They planned this for a very long time. The fact they had the foresight to booby trap many of these sophisticated tunnels took a long time and took a lot of thought. Hell in some sections the explosives were built into the walls. They got the results they wanted. They arranged it so their fighters are totally blended in with the Palestinian people. These casualties are something Hamas planned and actually is vital to their success.
The funny thing about blaming all Palestinian deaths on Hamas, you know how you and lots of others claim Hamas were holding Palestinian's hostage and this is what caused their death. The bulk of the aerial bombs used were 1000 and 2000 lb bombs according to US intelligence. That's a lot of bomb for a densely populated city if you are trying to kill Hamas and spare the innocent Palestinians. Big F*ing bombs! US Military had advocated for 250 lb and in fact at the start of the war had shipped them a supply of 250s. Think they have stopped using 2000s based on blowback from US military.
This according to CNN, NYT and Business Insider in early November. Lots of articles from all over the place since early November through January.
This is where your degree in physics should come in handy for you. Big bombs are more effective than little bombs when the targets are hiding in subterranean reinforced tunnels constructed to protect the people hiding out in them. The icing on the cake is locating those structures under hospitals, schools and mosques etc so you can bemoan the deaths of innocent Palestinians. You don't seem to be bothered by that all that much. All of your energy is focused on your hatred for Bibi. So what is the strategy Israel employs in the war in Gaza when Bibi is gone?? The war isn't going away and the next leader of Israel will still have to deal with it. Any solution has to give the Israeli people the assurance that Hamas will never be able to repeat what Hamas did on October 7.
... the US military disagrees that using bigger bombs is the way to go. Precision 250s are what the US military is calling for. Speaking of physics even your limited education should be able to understand bigger bombs make bigger holes and in a high population density battlefield kills a lot more people!! By the way, the 2000 ibs bombs where not precision deliver types. The 250s US gave Israel are.
My limited limited education doesn't include my understanding of what ordnance will work and what ordnance will not. 250 pounders are ineffective at penetrating hardened targets buried deep underground. You think there is a reason why Hamas buried these reinforced bunkers deep underground on top of schools, hospitals and mosques?? Do you realize the US is still working feverishly to develop deep penetrating ordnance to eliminate hardened targets buried underground and reinforced to the max. You might as well be dropping tennis balls instead of 250 pound bombs. Both will be equally as effective.
Send in some Recon / CI's with backpacks that have detonating spray foam, capable of exponential expansion. And inside that spray foam device are embedded LiDAR devices so that the underground topography can be mapped prior to deployment.. You ever tried to clean up spray foam gone wild.....it is miserably challenging and time consuming.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 12:30 pmYes, that's a fair statement that many Americans, though only some quite heavily and most less so, experienced that trauma. And it had a real effect. And some "counterproductive" decisions, too.
There are all sorts of of traumas that people experience, indeed most people know someone who has experienced major traumas, if not directly. Often, though, we are unaware of the traumas someone we know suffered.
Sometimes these traumas are super personal, eg rape, incest, assault, etc...others are more communal, mass murder events, police violence, mob riots, etc...some are based in ideologies that target and terrorize wide swaths of people based on religion, ethnicity, race, gender...
... I think the trauma of 911, and America's reaction to it led to nothing but bad decisions. in the short term.
The trauma of 9/11 vs. the generational trauma that Jews have experienced is dramatically different. For that matter, the trauma the Palestinians have faced and are facing vs. the generational trauma of the Jews is dramatically different. My point isn't to have a trauma contest. I just don't want to lose sight of the depth and breadth of the trauma that Jews have and continue to experience. There's a reason why the Jews need Israel. The need for the Jews to have Israel is a deep, deep, very real need.
.... so the depth of that need should of course exempt Israel of any blame, accountability for the number of Palestinians killed in this war. I am not buying that, and its pretty clear fewer and fewer people in the world are willing to buy that. Israel has already lost the PR phase of the war or very close to it.
Well then my original question still stands. How much violence is too much? Hamas obviously planned and prepared for this massacre for a long time. They deliberately set up import tunnel and strategic facilities right where it put the Palestinians people in greatest danger. You have no problem with them locating them under hospitals, schools, mosques and other locations that would inevitably put Palestinians directly in the line of fire. They knew damn well what the Israeli response would be. It was exactly as brutal as it needed to be. The Israeli army underestimated how many tunnels there are. Over 400 miles of tunnels in a narrow strip of land 6 miles wide and 25 miles long. That is one hell of an engineering feet. I wonder where they got the heavy equipment and technology to pull that off? The vast majority of Palestinians either didn't know or condoned what Hamas was doing by keeping their mouths closed. War is hell and innocent people will die in large numbers. Many more are yet to die. If your aware of a better way to root out the Hamas terrorists who planned and executed this massacre then please share it. They planned this for a very long time. The fact they had the foresight to booby trap many of these sophisticated tunnels took a long time and took a lot of thought. Hell in some sections the explosives were built into the walls. They got the results they wanted. They arranged it so their fighters are totally blended in with the Palestinian people. These casualties are something Hamas planned and actually is vital to their success.
The funny thing about blaming all Palestinian deaths on Hamas, you know how you and lots of others claim Hamas were holding Palestinian's hostage and this is what caused their death. The bulk of the aerial bombs used were 1000 and 2000 lb bombs according to US intelligence. That's a lot of bomb for a densely populated city if you are trying to kill Hamas and spare the innocent Palestinians. Big F*ing bombs! US Military had advocated for 250 lb and in fact at the start of the war had shipped them a supply of 250s. Think they have stopped using 2000s based on blowback from US military.
This according to CNN, NYT and Business Insider in early November. Lots of articles from all over the place since early November through January.
This is where your degree in physics should come in handy for you. Big bombs are more effective than little bombs when the targets are hiding in subterranean reinforced tunnels constructed to protect the people hiding out in them. The icing on the cake is locating those structures under hospitals, schools and mosques etc so you can bemoan the deaths of innocent Palestinians. You don't seem to be bothered by that all that much. All of your energy is focused on your hatred for Bibi. So what is the strategy Israel employs in the war in Gaza when Bibi is gone?? The war isn't going away and the next leader of Israel will still have to deal with it. Any solution has to give the Israeli people the assurance that Hamas will never be able to repeat what Hamas did on October 7.
... the US military disagrees that using bigger bombs is the way to go. Precision 250s are what the US military is calling for. Speaking of physics even your limited education should be able to understand bigger bombs make bigger holes and in a high population density battlefield kills a lot more people!! By the way, the 2000 ibs bombs where not precision deliver types. The 250s US gave Israel are.
My limited limited education doesn't include my understanding of what ordnance will work and what ordnance will not. 250 pounders are ineffective at penetrating hardened targets buried deep underground. You think there is a reason why Hamas buried these reinforced bunkers deep underground on top of schools, hospitals and mosques?? Do you realize the US is still working feverishly to develop deep penetrating ordnance to eliminate hardened targets buried underground and reinforced to the max. You might as well be dropping tennis balls instead of 250 pound bombs. Both will be equally as effective.
Send in some Recon / CI's with backpacks that have detonating spray foam, capable of exponential expansion. And inside that spray foam device are embedded LiDAR devices so that the underground topography can be mapped prior to deployment.. You ever tried to clean up spray foam gone wild.....it is miserably challenging and time consuming.
I have more experience with expanding spray foam insulation than I care to remember. If it gets on your hands only mineral spirits will get it off. If it gets on your clothes you can throw them out. I have no idea how much expanding foam would be required to fill in over 400 miles of tunnels. I do know that when it is in place and hardens you are not going to get it out.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 12:30 pmYes, that's a fair statement that many Americans, though only some quite heavily and most less so, experienced that trauma. And it had a real effect. And some "counterproductive" decisions, too.
There are all sorts of of traumas that people experience, indeed most people know someone who has experienced major traumas, if not directly. Often, though, we are unaware of the traumas someone we know suffered.
Sometimes these traumas are super personal, eg rape, incest, assault, etc...others are more communal, mass murder events, police violence, mob riots, etc...some are based in ideologies that target and terrorize wide swaths of people based on religion, ethnicity, race, gender...
... I think the trauma of 911, and America's reaction to it led to nothing but bad decisions. in the short term.
The trauma of 9/11 vs. the generational trauma that Jews have experienced is dramatically different. For that matter, the trauma the Palestinians have faced and are facing vs. the generational trauma of the Jews is dramatically different. My point isn't to have a trauma contest. I just don't want to lose sight of the depth and breadth of the trauma that Jews have and continue to experience. There's a reason why the Jews need Israel. The need for the Jews to have Israel is a deep, deep, very real need.
.... so the depth of that need should of course exempt Israel of any blame, accountability for the number of Palestinians killed in this war. I am not buying that, and its pretty clear fewer and fewer people in the world are willing to buy that. Israel has already lost the PR phase of the war or very close to it.
Well then my original question still stands. How much violence is too much? Hamas obviously planned and prepared for this massacre for a long time. They deliberately set up import tunnel and strategic facilities right where it put the Palestinians people in greatest danger. You have no problem with them locating them under hospitals, schools, mosques and other locations that would inevitably put Palestinians directly in the line of fire. They knew damn well what the Israeli response would be. It was exactly as brutal as it needed to be. The Israeli army underestimated how many tunnels there are. Over 400 miles of tunnels in a narrow strip of land 6 miles wide and 25 miles long. That is one hell of an engineering feet. I wonder where they got the heavy equipment and technology to pull that off? The vast majority of Palestinians either didn't know or condoned what Hamas was doing by keeping their mouths closed. War is hell and innocent people will die in large numbers. Many more are yet to die. If your aware of a better way to root out the Hamas terrorists who planned and executed this massacre then please share it. They planned this for a very long time. The fact they had the foresight to booby trap many of these sophisticated tunnels took a long time and took a lot of thought. Hell in some sections the explosives were built into the walls. They got the results they wanted. They arranged it so their fighters are totally blended in with the Palestinian people. These casualties are something Hamas planned and actually is vital to their success.
The funny thing about blaming all Palestinian deaths on Hamas, you know how you and lots of others claim Hamas were holding Palestinian's hostage and this is what caused their death. The bulk of the aerial bombs used were 1000 and 2000 lb bombs according to US intelligence. That's a lot of bomb for a densely populated city if you are trying to kill Hamas and spare the innocent Palestinians. Big F*ing bombs! US Military had advocated for 250 lb and in fact at the start of the war had shipped them a supply of 250s. Think they have stopped using 2000s based on blowback from US military.
This according to CNN, NYT and Business Insider in early November. Lots of articles from all over the place since early November through January.
This is where your degree in physics should come in handy for you. Big bombs are more effective than little bombs when the targets are hiding in subterranean reinforced tunnels constructed to protect the people hiding out in them. The icing on the cake is locating those structures under hospitals, schools and mosques etc so you can bemoan the deaths of innocent Palestinians. You don't seem to be bothered by that all that much. All of your energy is focused on your hatred for Bibi. So what is the strategy Israel employs in the war in Gaza when Bibi is gone?? The war isn't going away and the next leader of Israel will still have to deal with it. Any solution has to give the Israeli people the assurance that Hamas will never be able to repeat what Hamas did on October 7.
... the US military disagrees that using bigger bombs is the way to go. Precision 250s are what the US military is calling for. Speaking of physics even your limited education should be able to understand bigger bombs make bigger holes and in a high population density battlefield kills a lot more people!! By the way, the 2000 ibs bombs where not precision deliver types. The 250s US gave Israel are.
My limited limited education doesn't include my understanding of what ordnance will work and what ordnance will not. 250 pounders are ineffective at penetrating hardened targets buried deep underground. You think there is a reason why Hamas buried these reinforced bunkers deep underground on top of schools, hospitals and mosques?? Do you realize the US is still working feverishly to develop deep penetrating ordnance to eliminate hardened targets buried underground and reinforced to the max. You might as well be dropping tennis balls instead of 250 pound bombs. Both will be equally as effective.
Send in some Recon / CI's with backpacks that have detonating spray foam, capable of exponential expansion. And inside that spray foam device are embedded LiDAR devices so that the underground topography can be mapped prior to deployment.. You ever tried to clean up spray foam gone wild.....it is miserably challenging and time consuming.
I have more experience with expanding spray foam insulation than I care to remember. If it gets on your hands only mineral spirits will get it off. If it gets on your clothes you can throw them out. I have no idea how much expanding foam would be required to fill in over 400 miles of tunnels. I do know that when it is in place and hardens you are not going to get it out.
You think tunneling into hardened foam is unachievable? Really?
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 12:30 pmYes, that's a fair statement that many Americans, though only some quite heavily and most less so, experienced that trauma. And it had a real effect. And some "counterproductive" decisions, too.
There are all sorts of of traumas that people experience, indeed most people know someone who has experienced major traumas, if not directly. Often, though, we are unaware of the traumas someone we know suffered.
Sometimes these traumas are super personal, eg rape, incest, assault, etc...others are more communal, mass murder events, police violence, mob riots, etc...some are based in ideologies that target and terrorize wide swaths of people based on religion, ethnicity, race, gender...
... I think the trauma of 911, and America's reaction to it led to nothing but bad decisions. in the short term.
The trauma of 9/11 vs. the generational trauma that Jews have experienced is dramatically different. For that matter, the trauma the Palestinians have faced and are facing vs. the generational trauma of the Jews is dramatically different. My point isn't to have a trauma contest. I just don't want to lose sight of the depth and breadth of the trauma that Jews have and continue to experience. There's a reason why the Jews need Israel. The need for the Jews to have Israel is a deep, deep, very real need.
.... so the depth of that need should of course exempt Israel of any blame, accountability for the number of Palestinians killed in this war. I am not buying that, and its pretty clear fewer and fewer people in the world are willing to buy that. Israel has already lost the PR phase of the war or very close to it.
Well then my original question still stands. How much violence is too much? Hamas obviously planned and prepared for this massacre for a long time. They deliberately set up import tunnel and strategic facilities right where it put the Palestinians people in greatest danger. You have no problem with them locating them under hospitals, schools, mosques and other locations that would inevitably put Palestinians directly in the line of fire. They knew damn well what the Israeli response would be. It was exactly as brutal as it needed to be. The Israeli army underestimated how many tunnels there are. Over 400 miles of tunnels in a narrow strip of land 6 miles wide and 25 miles long. That is one hell of an engineering feet. I wonder where they got the heavy equipment and technology to pull that off? The vast majority of Palestinians either didn't know or condoned what Hamas was doing by keeping their mouths closed. War is hell and innocent people will die in large numbers. Many more are yet to die. If your aware of a better way to root out the Hamas terrorists who planned and executed this massacre then please share it. They planned this for a very long time. The fact they had the foresight to booby trap many of these sophisticated tunnels took a long time and took a lot of thought. Hell in some sections the explosives were built into the walls. They got the results they wanted. They arranged it so their fighters are totally blended in with the Palestinian people. These casualties are something Hamas planned and actually is vital to their success.
The funny thing about blaming all Palestinian deaths on Hamas, you know how you and lots of others claim Hamas were holding Palestinian's hostage and this is what caused their death. The bulk of the aerial bombs used were 1000 and 2000 lb bombs according to US intelligence. That's a lot of bomb for a densely populated city if you are trying to kill Hamas and spare the innocent Palestinians. Big F*ing bombs! US Military had advocated for 250 lb and in fact at the start of the war had shipped them a supply of 250s. Think they have stopped using 2000s based on blowback from US military.
This according to CNN, NYT and Business Insider in early November. Lots of articles from all over the place since early November through January.
This is where your degree in physics should come in handy for you. Big bombs are more effective than little bombs when the targets are hiding in subterranean reinforced tunnels constructed to protect the people hiding out in them. The icing on the cake is locating those structures under hospitals, schools and mosques etc so you can bemoan the deaths of innocent Palestinians. You don't seem to be bothered by that all that much. All of your energy is focused on your hatred for Bibi. So what is the strategy Israel employs in the war in Gaza when Bibi is gone?? The war isn't going away and the next leader of Israel will still have to deal with it. Any solution has to give the Israeli people the assurance that Hamas will never be able to repeat what Hamas did on October 7.
... the US military disagrees that using bigger bombs is the way to go. Precision 250s are what the US military is calling for. Speaking of physics even your limited education should be able to understand bigger bombs make bigger holes and in a high population density battlefield kills a lot more people!! By the way, the 2000 ibs bombs where not precision deliver types. The 250s US gave Israel are.
My limited limited education doesn't include my understanding of what ordnance will work and what ordnance will not. 250 pounders are ineffective at penetrating hardened targets buried deep underground. You think there is a reason why Hamas buried these reinforced bunkers deep underground on top of schools, hospitals and mosques?? Do you realize the US is still working feverishly to develop deep penetrating ordnance to eliminate hardened targets buried underground and reinforced to the max. You might as well be dropping tennis balls instead of 250 pound bombs. Both will be equally as effective.
Send in some Recon / CI's with backpacks that have detonating spray foam, capable of exponential expansion. And inside that spray foam device are embedded LiDAR devices so that the underground topography can be mapped prior to deployment.. You ever tried to clean up spray foam gone wild.....it is miserably challenging and time consuming.
I have more experience with expanding spray foam insulation than I care to remember. If it gets on your hands only mineral spirits will get it off. If it gets on your clothes you can throw them out. I have no idea how much expanding foam would be required to fill in over 400 miles of tunnels. I do know that when it is in place and hardens you are not going to get it out.
You think tunneling into hardened foam is unachievable? Really?
I don't know about tunneling into it. I on many occasions have had to chip it out of a sealed up 6 inch PVC pipe. All I know is trying to remove it when it has hardened is no easy task. That is only my own personal experience talking. It could take an hour or more just to chunk through a couple of feet with a flathead screwdriver. It never comes out in one big piece. It comes out grudgingly in a lot of little pieces.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
They're not honest brokers. THIS is why Palestine keeps saying no to every single Two State offer given over the last few decades.
And THIS is why there are no Jewish people living in surrounding democracies like Egypt. They want the Jewish people out, and won't settle for anything else.
I don't see how Israel would trust Arab nations enough to let them run Gaza, unless you include Western Countries into the fold.
They're not honest brokers. THIS is why Palestine keeps saying no to every single Two State offer given over the last few decades.
And THIS is why there are no Jewish people living in surrounding democracies like Egypt. They want the Jewish people out, and won't settle for anything else.
I don't see how Israel would trust Arab nations enough to let them run Gaza, unless you include Western Countries into the fold.
Yep
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
Before Oct 7, Israel was in the strongest geopolitical position since Israeli independence. Jake Sullivan, 8 days before Oct 7th, wrote in Foreign Affairs -- "...the Middle East is going great. We've never had to spend so little time on Israel geostrategically. ...it was true, a lot of things were happening that were positive. ...the only problem was, everyone forgot about the Palestinians."
So much for Biden being able to see around corners.
NetenYAHOO has been laying groundwork for moment this for decades. The "creeping annexation" policy of supporting settlers in the West Bank is perhaps the crown jewel in this strategy...a constant stick-in-the-eye of ANY peace talks and just an insidious "policy" of the Israeli far right. Writer Burston has seen this approach evolving all this time and has been ringing unheeded alarms about it for far too long.
Now, Netanyahu and the Israeli religious right are perpetrating a genocide and creating a new generation of aggrieved Palestinian youth...those not yet murdered in this one-sided atrocity. It HAS to stop.
..
"The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog." - Calvin, to Hobbes
dislaxxic wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 1:01 pm
NetenYAHOO has been laying groundwork for moment this for decades. The "creeping annexation" policy of supporting settlers in the West Bank is perhaps the crown jewel in this strategy...a constant stick-in-the-eye of ANY peace talks and just an insidious "policy" of the Israeli far right. Writer Burston has seen this approach evolving all this time and has been ringing unheeded alarms about it for far too long.
Now, Netanyahu and the Israeli religious right are perpetrating a genocide and creating a new generation of aggrieved Palestinian youth...those not yet murdered in this one-sided atrocity. It HAS to stop.
..
Well whatta you Dis when the bad actors are hiding out under hospitals, schools and mosques etc...etc. ? I'm all ears to have you explain how that is accomplished. We won't even discuss the morality of hiding your soldiers under hospitals, schools and schools etc...etc. You seem to hold Israel to a higher standard than you do Hamas? Ain't that a surprise.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
dislaxxic wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 1:01 pm
NetenYAHOO has been laying groundwork for moment this for decades. The "creeping annexation" policy of supporting settlers in the West Bank is perhaps the crown jewel in this strategy...a constant stick-in-the-eye of ANY peace talks and just an insidious "policy" of the Israeli far right. Writer Burston has seen this approach evolving all this time and has been ringing unheeded alarms about it for far too long.
Now, Netanyahu and the Israeli religious right are perpetrating a genocide and creating a new generation of aggrieved Palestinian youth...those not yet murdered in this one-sided atrocity. It HAS to stop.
..
You're not totally wrong. But....what did Hamas think would happen when they slaughtered all those Israelis? I'd argue that they knew perfectly well that Israel wouldn't hit back proportionally....and it's why they did it in the first place.
And you're forgetting WHY these current wankers got into power in Israel: they offered two States several times BEFORE Netanyahu arrived. Palestinians said no deal....and then proceeded to hit Israel with everything from Cafe bombings. I see zero evidence that Palestinians want peace or a Two State solution....do you? I mean, right now, Dis: who does Israel negotiate with? Leaders from Hamas, yeah?
dislaxxic wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 1:01 pm
NetenYAHOO has been laying groundwork for moment this for decades. The "creeping annexation" policy of supporting settlers in the West Bank is perhaps the crown jewel in this strategy...a constant stick-in-the-eye of ANY peace talks and just an insidious "policy" of the Israeli far right. Writer Burston has seen this approach evolving all this time and has been ringing unheeded alarms about it for far too long.
Now, Netanyahu and the Israeli religious right are perpetrating a genocide and creating a new generation of aggrieved Palestinian youth...those not yet murdered in this one-sided atrocity. It HAS to stop.
..
You're not totally wrong. But....what did Hamas think would happen when they slaughtered all those Israelis? I'd argue that they knew perfectly well that Israel wouldn't hit back proportionally....and it's why they did it in the first place.
And you're forgetting WHY these current wankers got into power in Israel: they offered two States several times BEFORE Netanyahu arrived. Palestinians said no deal....and then proceeded to hit Israel with everything from Cafe bombings. I see zero evidence that Palestinians want peace or a Two State solution....do you? I mean, right now, Dis: who does Israel negotiate with? Leaders from Hamas, yeah?
Of course they knew what Bibi would do. And they most certainly goaded them.
However, at this point, this shti has to stop. Un-fcuking-acceptable.
I feel like I’m watching two children fighting. The smaller sucker punched the larger and bloodied their nose. Now the larger is beating the smaller to death.
Should the smaller not have punched the larger? Yep.
Are we not obligated to stop the larger before they kill the smaller? Yep.
Last edited by PizzaSnake on Sun Jan 28, 2024 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
dislaxxic wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 1:01 pm
NetenYAHOO has been laying groundwork for moment this for decades. The "creeping annexation" policy of supporting settlers in the West Bank is perhaps the crown jewel in this strategy...a constant stick-in-the-eye of ANY peace talks and just an insidious "policy" of the Israeli far right. Writer Burston has seen this approach evolving all this time and has been ringing unheeded alarms about it for far too long.
Now, Netanyahu and the Israeli religious right are perpetrating a genocide and creating a new generation of aggrieved Palestinian youth...those not yet murdered in this one-sided atrocity. It HAS to stop.
..
You're not totally wrong. But....what did Hamas think would happen when they slaughtered all those Israelis? I'd argue that they knew perfectly well that Israel wouldn't hit back proportionally....and it's why they did it in the first place.
And you're forgetting WHY these current wankers got into power in Israel: they offered two States several times BEFORE Netanyahu arrived. Palestinians said no deal....and then proceeded to hit Israel with everything from Cafe bombings. I see zero evidence that Palestinians want peace or a Two State solution....do you? I mean, right now, Dis: who does Israel negotiate with? Leaders from Hamas, yeah?
Of course they knew what Bibi would do. And they most certainly goaded them.
However, at this point, this shti has to stop. Un-fcuking-acceptable.
I feel like I’m watching two children fighting. The smaller sucker punched the larger and bloodied their nose. Now the larger is besting the smaller to death.
Should the smaller not have punched the larger. Yep.
Are we not obligated to stop the larger before they kill the smaller. Yep.
Won't stop until Hamas has been dismantled as much as possible, the hostages have been released and the tunnels destroyed. That will take as long as it takes.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 4:21 pm
However, at this point, this shti has to stop. Un-fcuking-acceptable.
I feel like I’m watching two children fighting. The smaller sucker punched the larger and bloodied their nose. Now the larger is besting the smaller to death.
Should the smaller not have punched the larger. Yep.
Are we not obligated to stop the larger before they kill the smaller. Yep.
The smaller is still holding hostages. Why does everyone keep forgetting that? Yet they want the bloodshed..that they started.....to end?
Would you listen to Hamas if they held your family captive, and you have no clue how they're being treated?
And told you "hey, you need to stop hurting our people"?
I'd buy what you're selling without reservation if the hostages were returned. And to be clear: i'm not down with ANY of the violence.
PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 4:21 pm
However, at this point, this shti has to stop. Un-fcuking-acceptable.
I feel like I’m watching two children fighting. The smaller sucker punched the larger and bloodied their nose. Now the larger is besting the smaller to death.
Should the smaller not have punched the larger. Yep.
Are we not obligated to stop the larger before they kill the smaller. Yep.
The smaller is still holding hostages. Why does everyone keep forgetting that? Yet they want the bloodshed..that they started.....to end?
Would you listen to Hamas if they held your family captive, and you have no clue how they're being treated?
And told you "hey, you need to stop hurting our people"?
I'd buy what you're selling without reservation if the hostages were returned. And to be clear: i'm not down with ANY of the violence.
An imperfect analogy on my part. I’m not “selling” anything. No quid pro quo.
Hamas is holding hostages. All Gazans are not Hamas.
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
The vast majority of Palestinians either didn't know or condoned what Hamas was doing by keeping their mouths closed. War is hell and innocent people will die in large numbers. Many more are yet to die. If your aware of a better way to root out the Hamas terrorists who planned and executed this massacre then please share it. They planned this for a very long time. The fact they had the foresight to booby trap many of these sophisticated tunnels took a long time and took a lot of thought. Hell in some sections the explosives were built into the walls. They got the results they wanted. They arranged it so their fighters are totally blended in with the Palestinian people. These casualties are something Hamas planned and actually is vital to their success.
