Can a D3 team without grad players win the National Title

[smoova]

The question I’ve always had about NESCAC rosters is to what extent does reclassifying players coming out of prep schools come in to play. Is it 20% of their rosters, less or more. Anyone have anecdotal evidence

In my limited experience, ~25% of NESCAC players start college at 19 or older.

That’s not the flex you think it is. It sounds about right for what everyone is saying. Nobody cares whether or not the person doing choreographed celebrations on the bench is 24 years old. We’re talking about the -25% that represents the starters and key contributors, that happen to be PGd or reclassed, now senoirs, being no different than the 5th years on the other team’s side. Frankly, the argument could be made that the prevalence of prep school PG and reclass came before COVID years, giving the NESCAC a head start and likely a continuing leg up with them being available long after COVID years expire.

What an interesting response - I wasn't intending to "flex" but I appreciate the projection. FWIW, none of the "older" players in my son's class were key contributors as freshmen ... but four of the 18 year-olds were. Just one data point, please continue with your mental gymnastics.

[RE6ULATOR]

The question I’ve always had about NESCAC rosters is to what extent does reclassifying players coming out of prep schools come in to play. Is it 20% of their rosters, less or more. Anyone have anecdotal evidence

In my limited experience, ~25% of NESCAC players start college at 19 or older.

That’s not the flex you think it is. It sounds about right for what everyone is saying. Nobody cares whether or not the person doing choreographed celebrations on the bench is 24 years old. We’re talking about the -25% that represents the starters and key contributors, that happen to be PGd or reclassed, now senoirs, being no different than the 5th years on the other team’s side. Frankly, the argument could be made that the prevalence of prep school PG and reclass came before COVID years, giving the NESCAC a head start and likely a continuing leg up with them being available long after COVID years expire.

What an interesting response - I wasn't intending to "flex" but I appreciate the projection. FWIW, none of the "older" players in my son's class were key contributors as freshmen ... but three of the 18 year-olds were. Just one data point, please continue with your mental gymnastics.

Reading comprehension my dude.

…We’re talking about the -25% that represents the starters and key contributors, that happen to be PGd or reclassed, now senoirs, being no different than the 5th years on the other team’s side…

…none of the "older" players in my son's class were key contributors as freshmen ... but three of the 18 year-olds were…

The difference is they were the age of Sophmores as Freshmen. We’re discussing their age as “Senoirs,” (and how it’s exactly the same as the age of non-PG/reclass true 5th years on other teams).

You seem to be trying some interesting gymnastics yourself.

[pcowlax]

But NESCAC teams that have grad programs can keep their athletes for their grad year. Many players took a fall off to play another year.

Outside of Tufts, this is largely moot. There are very few (though not zero) grad programs at NESCAC schools.

[smoova]

The question I’ve always had about NESCAC rosters is to what extent does reclassifying players coming out of prep schools come in to play. Is it 20% of their rosters, less or more. Anyone have anecdotal evidence

In my limited experience, ~25% of NESCAC players start college at 19 or older.

That’s not the flex you think it is. It sounds about right for what everyone is saying. Nobody cares whether or not the person doing choreographed celebrations on the bench is 24 years old. We’re talking about the -25% that represents the starters and key contributors, that happen to be PGd or reclassed, now senoirs, being no different than the 5th years on the other team’s side. Frankly, the argument could be made that the prevalence of prep school PG and reclass came before COVID years, giving the NESCAC a head start and likely a continuing leg up with them being available long after COVID years expire.

What an interesting response - I wasn't intending to "flex" but I appreciate the projection. FWIW, none of the "older" players in my son's class were key contributors as freshmen ... but three of the 18 year-olds were. Just one data point, please continue with your mental gymnastics.

Reading comprehension my dude.

…We’re talking about the -25% that represents the starters and key contributors, that happen to be PGd or reclassed, now senoirs, being no different than the 5th years on the other team’s side…

…none of the "older" players in my son's class were key contributors as freshmen ... but three of the 18 year-olds were…

The difference is they were the age of Sophmores as Freshmen. We’re discussing their age as “Senoirs,” (and how it’s exactly the same as the age of non-PG/reclass true 5th years on other teams).

You seem to be trying some interesting gymnastics yourself.

I provided accurate anecdotal evidence in response to @Dehuntshigwa’es' request. You jumped in to, apparently, argue about a different subject ... perhaps in hopes of validating some opinion you've formed. I can't help you with that, but I hope you have fun!

[RE6ULATOR]

I provided accurate anecdotal evidence in response to @Dehuntshigwa’es' request. You jumped in to, apparently, argue about a different subject ... perhaps in hopes of validating some opinion you've formed. I can't help you with that, but I hope you have fun!

There is literally an entire conversation going around you. His question was a part of the conversation. Don’t be so daft. You aren’t the “main character” in every room in which you enter…

I checked. Tufts didnt have any grads last season. They dominated the season and almost beat SU (a team stacked with 5th and 6th year)

If it was all about 5th and 6th year players to win a natty, CNU has always had the most. They can even get to the final 4.

With that said. SU bringing in 3 D1 transfers and having (probably) 7-8 grad kids, will be tough to beat. I feel bad for the fresh and sophomores that were probably studs in HS, but still haven’t seen a single meaningful min at SU

But what Tufts has that SU does not, is a number of players who attend New England-based, private schools.
Any player that re-classes / re-peats a year is essentially the same age as a 5th year; when they are in their Senior.
I say this without knowing who / or how many fall into this category...

Does the NESCAC have a rule that does not allow graduate players/transfers (similar to Ivy and Patriot League)?

Yes

Tufts had 2 grad players in2021

I checked. Tufts didnt have any grads last season. They dominated the season and almost beat SU (a team stacked with 5th and 6th year)

If it was all about 5th and 6th year players to win a natty, CNU has always had the most. They can even get to the final 4.

With that said. SU bringing in 3 D1 transfers and having (probably) 7-8 grad kids, will be tough to beat. I feel bad for the fresh and sophomores that were probably studs in HS, but still haven’t seen a single meaningful min at SU

I checked. Tufts didnt have any grads last season. They dominated the season and almost beat SU (a team stacked with 5th and 6th year)

If it was all about 5th and 6th year players to win a natty, CNU has always had the most. They can even get to the final 4.

With that said. SU bringing in 3 D1 transfers and having (probably) 7-8 grad kids, will be tough to beat. I feel bad for the fresh and sophomores that were probably studs in HS, but still haven’t seen a single meaningful min at SU

Does the NESCAC have a rule that does not allow graduate players/transfers (similar to Ivy and Patriot League)?

Tufts has amazing graduate programs. Shocked they can’t get any 5th/6th years?

Does the NESCAC have a rule that does not allow graduate players/transfers (similar to Ivy and Patriot League)?

Yes

Etc etc.

[smoova]

I provided accurate anecdotal evidence in response to @Dehuntshigwa’es' request. You jumped in to, apparently, argue about a different subject ... perhaps in hopes of validating some opinion you've formed. I can't help you with that, but I hope you have fun!

There is literally an entire conversation going around you. Don’t be so daft. You aren’t the “main character” in every room in which you enter…

Sorry that my facts don't help your cause.

[laxdad1434]

I provided accurate anecdotal evidence in response to @Dehuntshigwa’es' request. You jumped in to, apparently, argue about a different subject ... perhaps in hopes of validating some opinion you've formed. I can't help you with that, but I hope you have fun!

There is literally an entire conversation going around you. Don’t be so daft. You aren’t the “main character” in every room in which you enter…

Sorry that my facts don't help your cause.

NESCAC brings out the best in people...

[RE6ULATOR]

There is literally an entire conversation going around you. Don’t be so daft. You aren’t the “main character” in every room in which you enter…

Sorry that my facts don't help your cause.

Facts. Nobody cares if the PG year kids didn’t contribute their “freshmen” year. -25% does help the greater conversation that you piped up in though, as that is up to and including a healthy % of the team. And likely includes key contributors WHEN THEY’RE IN THEIR “SENOIR” YEAR and a year older than true senoirs. (Same as 5th years. Welcome to the conversation)

[Dehuntshigwa’es]

There is literally an entire conversation going around you. Don’t be so daft. You aren’t the “main character” in every room in which you enter…

Sorry that my facts don't help your cause.

Facts. Nobody cares if the PG year kids didn’t contribute their “freshmen” year. -25% does help the greater conversation that you piped up in though, as that is up to and including a healthy % of the team. And likely includes key contributors WHEN THEY’RE IN THEIR “SENOIR” YEAR and a year older than true senoirs. (Same as 5th years. Welcome to the conversation)

This has always been my thought. Looked at recent data from NHL which I’ve read past articles on. The highest birth months for NHL hickey players in order are January March February and April. To provide some perspective December November August, October have the least.

[DeepPocket]

There is literally an entire conversation going around you. Don’t be so daft. You aren’t the “main character” in every room in which you enter…

Sorry that my facts don't help your cause.

Facts. Nobody cares if the PG year kids didn’t contribute their “freshmen” year. -25% does help the greater conversation that you piped up in though, as that is up to and including a healthy % of the team. And likely includes key contributors WHEN THEY’RE IN THEIR “SENOIR” YEAR and a year older than true senoirs. (Same as 5th years. Welcome to the conversation)

This has always been my thought. Looked at recent data from NHL which I’ve read past articles on. The highest birth months for NHL hickey players in order are January March February and April. To provide some perspective December November August, October have the least.

Malcolm Gladwell’s “Outliers”

[Laxforeveryone]

I would love to see an analysis of player age for college lacrosse. What was once perhaps deemed to be a less common occurrence, the “reclass” is now especially prevalent, largely among the wealthy and those in private school. We are now looking at a situation where kids don’t start kindergarten until they are 6 and then at some point if they are wealthy and athletic they transfer to a private school in junior high or early years of high school to repeat a grade. Then in some instances there are kids who also go to a private academy for a “13th yr”. Of course, all of this requires a significant amount of money so the sports most affected are ones like lacrosse. I don’t know if it is true, but someone once said the average age of a college freshman in D1 lacrosse is 20.

[AbeFroeman]

I would love to see an analysis of player age for college lacrosse. What was once perhaps deemed to be a less common occurrence, the “reclass” is now especially prevalent, largely among the wealthy and those in private school. We are now looking at a situation where kids don’t start kindergarten until they are 6 and then at some point if they are wealthy and athletic they transfer to a private school in junior high or early years of high school to repeat a grade. Then in some instances there are kids who also go to a private academy for a “13th yr”. Of course, all of this requires a significant amount of money so the sports most affected are ones like lacrosse. I don’t know if it is true, but someone once said the average age of a college freshman in D1 lacrosse is 20.

I would be shocked if the average age of a freshman lacrosse player is 20. I would bet by the start of lacrosse season, a majority of freshman are still 18. realistically, less than 5% are two year hold backs. And maybe 20% are 1 year holdbacks (which would be 19)

[pcowlax]

I would love to see an analysis of player age for college lacrosse. What was once perhaps deemed to be a less common occurrence, the “reclass” is now especially prevalent, largely among the wealthy and those in private school. We are now looking at a situation where kids don’t start kindergarten until they are 6 and then at some point if they are wealthy and athletic they transfer to a private school in junior high or early years of high school to repeat a grade. Then in some instances there are kids who also go to a private academy for a “13th yr”. Of course, all of this requires a significant amount of money so the sports most affected are ones like lacrosse. I don’t know if it is true, but someone once said the average age of a college freshman in D1 lacrosse is 20.

I would be shocked if the average age of a freshman lacrosse player is 20. I would bet by the start of lacrosse season, a majority of freshman are still 18. realistically, less than 5% are two year hold backs. And maybe 20% are 1 year holdbacks (which would be 19)

Not sure who "someone" was but that is absolutely ridiculous. So the average senior is 24? Maybe, maybe 5% of D1 freshman are 20 by the start of lax season. If you mean by the start of school, 1%. There are indeed many older kids but it is nothing like hockey. It is also by no means a private school/hold back thing only, though it is very much more common in wealthy areas. There are plenty of public school kids turning 19 the summer after graduating in towns like Darien or Garden City.

[Dehuntshigwa’es]

I think we’ve arrived at a cul de sac. Bottom line is I’ll argue that no team including Tufts can win the title this year unless they carry 5th year players. That would mean it’s CNU, Salisbury, Lynchburg York and RIT’s to lose. ( Other schools with 5th years?) Without 5th year participation on these squads they would be mortal and not what I’d call super rosters, bringing back not just roster spots but many key starters and All Americans. Which brings another issue to bear. Is it really fair for 5th year players to earn AA honors getting 5 years to earn that honor while others will only get 4. Crazy year, glad this will be over. It gets really interesting at the D1 level Duke w 18, UVa 9, Norte Dame 14, Ohio St 9. I didn’t go any further, you get the idea. This ruling has had far greater impact than I think the NCAA ever imagined. I’m glad it stops here.l’m just looking forward to a great season of lax and warmer weather. Let the games begin

[DeepPocket]

I think we’ve arrived at a cul de sac. Bottom line is I’ll argue that no team including Tufts can win the title this year unless they carry 5th year players. That would mean it’s CNU, Salisbury, Lynchburg York and RIT’s to lose. ( Other schools with 5th years?) Without 5th year participation on these squads they would be mortal and not what I’d call super rosters, bringing back not just roster spots but many key starters and All Americans. Which brings another issue to bear. Is it really fair for 5th year players to earn AA honors getting 5 years to earn that honor while others will only get 4. Crazy year, glad this will be over. It gets really interesting at the D1 level Duke w 18, UVa 9, Norte Dame 14, Ohio St 9. I didn’t go any further, you get the idea. This ruling has had far greater impact than I think the NCAA ever imagined. I’m glad it stops here.l’m just looking forward to a great season of lax and warmer weather. Let the games begin

Do you not think that teams laden with the above mentioned players who benefitted from an extra year of super high level prep school training with fantastic college-caliber coaches & facilities, and who are now the age and maturity equivalent of 5th years, have a similar shot?

On your “it stops here“ portion, I’m cautiously optimistic. Looking at other NCAA sports this year, you’re seeing waivers granted left and right. Years back, 3x transfers, things that were uncommon, all the way to things that were unheard of. It seems like since the rules changed once, the NCAA now fully accepts that the rules can always change.

[Dehuntshigwa’es]

Deep I’m assuming you mean players that delayed a year or reset by going to prep school. If that is what you mean I don’t think the impact is nearly the same. A player coming in at 19 instead of 18 isn’t the same as a 4 year trained college player who is now coming back again at 22 or 23 w 4 now a 5th year of weight room and CONFIDENCE . These aren’t bench warmers coming back many are the elite. The reality is what it is. Bottom line is teams that can’t support 5th yr players are going to have to, train, practice and play at an even higher level if they want to win. Use it as motivation

[DeepPocket]

Deep I’m assuming you mean players that delayed a year or reset by going to prep school. If that is what you mean I don’t think the impact is nearly the same. A player coming in at 19 instead of 18 isn’t the same as a 4 year trained college player who is now coming back again at 22 or 23 w 4 now a 5th year of weight room and CONFIDENCE . These aren’t bench warmers coming back many are the elite. The reality is what it is. Bottom line is teams that can’t support 5th yr players are going to have to, train, practice and play at an even higher level if they want to win. Use it as motivation

Indeed, that’s who I mean. But not freshmen/sophmores. The ones that are now college senoirs. Age and physical maturity of a 5th year, with 3 full college years and the extra prep year building up to this. Can’t be that far off, no?

[ReturnOfTheWAC]

I think we’ve arrived at a cul de sac. Bottom line is I’ll argue that no team including Tufts can win the title this year unless they carry 5th year players. That would mean it’s CNU, Salisbury, Lynchburg York and RIT’s to lose. ( Other schools with 5th years?) Without 5th year participation on these squads they would be mortal and not what I’d call super rosters, bringing back not just roster spots but many key starters and All Americans. Which brings another issue to bear. Is it really fair for 5th year players to earn AA honors getting 5 years to earn that honor while others will only get 4. Crazy year, glad this will be over. It gets really interesting at the D1 level Duke w 18, UVa 9, Norte Dame 14, Ohio St 9. I didn’t go any further, you get the idea. This ruling has had far greater impact than I think the NCAA ever imagined. I’m glad it stops here.l’m just looking forward to a great season of lax and warmer weather. Let the games begin

I’ve grown tired of this defeatist argument. We get it, W&L dosen’t have the luxury of 5th year transfers or grad students. In the sport of lacrosse(where academics does play a major factor in recruiting), W&L and the other high academics have a MASSIVE advantage when it comes to getting high level players. I don’t see the constant complaining about how W&L gets arguably a top 5 division 3 recruiting class each year. I’d argue that W&Ls freshman are better than all others listed above(with some discretion with Tufts and RIT). Salisbury(who I hate) has been winning championships long before the 5th year and grad school phenomenon. I’d argue maybe what Salisbury, and others do once the players arrive to campus is what puts them over the top vs teams like W&L.

[SaltCounty]

Deep I’m assuming you mean players that delayed a year or reset by going to prep school. If that is what you mean I don’t think the impact is nearly the same. A player coming in at 19 instead of 18 isn’t the same as a 4 year trained college player who is now coming back again at 22 or 23 w 4 now a 5th year of weight room and CONFIDENCE . These aren’t bench warmers coming back many are the elite. The reality is what it is. Bottom line is teams that can’t support 5th yr players are going to have to, train, practice and play at an even higher level if they want to win. Use it as motivation

Indeed, that’s who I mean. But not freshmen/sophmores. The ones that are now college senoirs. Age and physical maturity of a 5th year, with 3 full college years and the extra prep year building up to this. Can’t be that far off, no?

For a small group, not that far off at all - especially if they reclassed / repeated at a place like Deerfield, Taft, Hill, etc.
Another year of playing with/against peers headed to the ACC/B10/IVY might be more valuable then running 2nd line or rotating in as a 1st year.

The weight room is a good point - but many years there is a freshman / 1st year @ Salisbury that puts up ridiculous numbers on their weight test.

Not sure if anyone has brought this point up or not.
But many Canadian born players have the option of reclassing without switching schools.
Don't know the specifics - but it sounds like (more often than not) they just elect an extra year of schooling.

So how do we feel about 19/20 year old freshman from Canada that ends up at a D3 (IE. RIT) who have an extra year in school & the Box?

[Laxdds]

Just my opinion....Why would any parent encourage/allow a student to delay matriculating into college, to better their chance at success on the D3 lacrosse field? Seems nuts to me, maybe I don't understand the process as discussed above, i.e. "reclassify" "PG year".

If they are doing it to increase the chance of success in the classroom, I can understand that.