Israel and Zionism

[jhu72]

Yes, that's a fair statement that many Americans, though only some quite heavily and most less so, experienced that trauma. And it had a real effect. And some "counterproductive" decisions, too.
There are all sorts of of traumas that people experience, indeed most people know someone who has experienced major traumas, if not directly. Often, though, we are unaware of the traumas someone we know suffered.
Sometimes these traumas are super personal, eg rape, incest, assault, etc...others are more communal, mass murder events, police violence, mob riots, etc...some are based in ideologies that target and terrorize wide swaths of people based on religion, ethnicity, race, gender...

... I think the trauma of 911, and America's reaction to it led to nothing but bad decisions. in the short term.

The trauma of 9/11 vs. the generational trauma that Jews have experienced is dramatically different. For that matter, the trauma the Palestinians have faced and are facing vs. the generational trauma of the Jews is dramatically different. My point isn't to have a trauma contest. I just don't want to lose sight of the depth and breadth of the trauma that Jews have and continue to experience. There's a reason why the Jews need Israel. The need for the Jews to have Israel is a deep, deep, very real need.

.... so the depth of that need should of course exempt Israel of any blame, accountability for the number of Palestinians killed in this war. I am not buying that, and its pretty clear fewer and fewer people in the world are willing to buy that. Israel has already lost the PR phase of the war or very close to it.

[Baducchi]

The trauma of 9/11 vs. the generational trauma that Jews have experienced is dramatically different. For that matter, the trauma the Palestinians have faced and are facing vs. the generational trauma of the Jews is dramatically different. My point isn't to have a trauma contest. I just don't want to lose sight of the depth and breadth of the trauma that Jews have and continue to experience. There's a reason why the Jews need Israel. The need for the Jews to have Israel is a deep, deep, very real need.

.... so the depth of that need should of course exempt Israel of any blame, accountability for the number of Palestinians killed in this war. I am not buying that, and its pretty clear fewer and fewer people in the world are willing to buy that. Israel has already lost the PR phase of the war or very close to it.

Where do you see in anything I just said any mention of Israel not being accountable for their actions?

[jhu72]

The trauma of 9/11 vs. the generational trauma that Jews have experienced is dramatically different. For that matter, the trauma the Palestinians have faced and are facing vs. the generational trauma of the Jews is dramatically different. My point isn't to have a trauma contest. I just don't want to lose sight of the depth and breadth of the trauma that Jews have and continue to experience. There's a reason why the Jews need Israel. The need for the Jews to have Israel is a deep, deep, very real need.

.... so the depth of that need should of course exempt Israel of any blame, accountability for the number of Palestinians killed in this war. I am not buying that, and its pretty clear fewer and fewer people in the world are willing to buy that. Israel has already lost the PR phase of the war or very close to it.

Where do you see in anything I just said any mention of Israel not being accountable for their actions?

... so the world understanding that need, what should the world do? Blindly support Israel in anything they might do?

[a fan]

It is a fair question to ask how such a large # of Palestinians allowed Hamas tunnels and command bunkers to be built under hospitals, schools, mosques and other civilian facilities. A cynical person would say that Hamas was responsible for the retaliation that followed their massacre. They must have felt very safe using the people they claim to represent as human shields. It didn't seem to bother them one damn bit.

So how much violence is too much violence?? The catalyst for the ensuing violence is 100% on Hamas. War is hell. Churchill didn't lose any sleep when he firebombed Dresden. A city with zero importance on a strategic level. That was payback for V1 and V2 rocket attacks on London.

Curtis LeMay was considered a hero for the firebombing of Tokyo. General Sherman was a hero up North for burning Atlanta to the ground.The examples go on and on. The difference now is we all get death and destruction on the nightly news in beautiful HD TV.

Great points. Well said.

For me, it's simple.

Hamas are holding hostages, and started this war. You want it to end? Give the hostages back, or, my preference, don't start wars if you don't want to be in one.

I'm having a hard time understand why everyone is whining about a cease fire while Hamas is holding hostages that they took while starting this war.

Want a cease fire? Don't start a war and take hostages. Would ANY other country behave differently?

How did WE behave when our country was attacked? We started wars in two countries that killed a helluva lot more than 10,000 civilians. And in case folks missed the memo? This war is still going. We're bombing/droning/etc. all around the world every month.

[a fan]

The trauma of 9/11 vs. the generational trauma that Jews have experienced is dramatically different. For that matter, the trauma the Palestinians have faced and are facing vs. the generational trauma of the Jews is dramatically different. My point isn't to have a trauma contest. I just don't want to lose sight of the depth and breadth of the trauma that Jews have and continue to experience. There's a reason why the Jews need Israel. The need for the Jews to have Israel is a deep, deep, very real need.

.... so the depth of that need should of course exempt Israel of any blame, accountability for the number of Palestinians killed in this war. I am not buying that, and its pretty clear fewer and fewer people in the world are willing to buy that. Israel has already lost the PR phase of the war or very close to it.

Where do you see in anything I just said any mention of Israel not being accountable for their actions?

... so the world understanding that need, what should the world do? Blindly support Israel in anything they might do?

...and what about the hostages, JHU72? How does Hamas have the high ground in calling for a cease fire when they're still holding and hiding hostages in the very area that the Israelis are searching and waging war?

I'm not happy about any of this, but have we forgotten that Hamas refuses to release civilian hostages while simultaneously wanting a cease fire?

[jhu72]

The trauma of 9/11 vs. the generational trauma that Jews have experienced is dramatically different. For that matter, the trauma the Palestinians have faced and are facing vs. the generational trauma of the Jews is dramatically different. My point isn't to have a trauma contest. I just don't want to lose sight of the depth and breadth of the trauma that Jews have and continue to experience. There's a reason why the Jews need Israel. The need for the Jews to have Israel is a deep, deep, very real need.

.... so the depth of that need should of course exempt Israel of any blame, accountability for the number of Palestinians killed in this war. I am not buying that, and its pretty clear fewer and fewer people in the world are willing to buy that. Israel has already lost the PR phase of the war or very close to it.

Where do you see in anything I just said any mention of Israel not being accountable for their actions?

... so the world understanding that need, what should the world do? Blindly support Israel in anything they might do?

...and what about the hostages, JHU72? How does Hamas have the high ground in calling for a cease fire when they're still holding and hiding hostages in the very area that the Israelis are searching and waging war?

I'm not happy about any of this, but have we forgotten that Hamas refuses to release civilian hostages while simultaneously wanting a cease fire?

... never said Hamas has the high ground! Never said a word about a cease fire.

So my question would be what should the world do knowing that Hamas is holding these about 100 hostages, give Israel permission to kill as many innocent Palestinians as they would like, until all the hostages are free??

[a fan]

So my question would be what should the world do knowing that Hamas is holding these about 100 hostages, give Israel permission to kill as many innocent Palestinians as they would like, until all the hostages are free??

Simple. The World should stop behaving as if this is all Israel's fault, and yell at Hamas to release the hostages so that a fair cease fire can happen immediately. You see anyone that isn't Jewish marching in the street, demanding that the hostages get returned?

The world is saying: we don't care about these Israeli hostages, and we don't acknowledge the fact that Hamas is the crew that started this current war.

In short, the world should be screaming at Hamas. They're not.

So what signal does this send to Israel? It's saying: "we don't care about your people, we just care about the Palestinians, and we're going to pretend like you started this current war".

And folks wonder why the Israelis could give a fig about World opinion. The above is why. I'm having a hard time blaming them for not listening.

[youthathletics]

So my question would be what should the world do knowing that Hamas is holding these about 100 hostages, give Israel permission to kill as many innocent Palestinians as they would like, until all the hostages are free??

Simple. The World should stop behaving as if this is all Israel's fault, and yell at Hamas to release the hostages so that a fair cease fire can happen immediately. You see anyone that isn't Jewish marching in the street, demanding that the hostages get returned?

The world is saying: we don't care about these Israeli hostages, and we don't acknowledge the fact that Hamas is the crew that started this current war.

In short, the world should be screaming at Hamas. They're not.

So what signal does this send to Israel? It's saying: "we don't care about your people, we just care about the Palestinians, and we're going to pretend like you started this current war".

And folks wonder why the Israelis could give a fig about World opinion. The above is why. I'm having a hard time blaming them for not listening.

+100

You'd think the Palestinians would want to kill and protest Hamas members for trying leverage innocent hostages over every Palestinians livelihood. It so friggen backwards.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

For me, it's simple.

Hamas are holding hostages, and started this war. You want it to end? Give the hostages back, or, my preference, don't start wars if you don't want to be in one.

I'm having a hard time understand why everyone is whining about a cease fire while Hamas is holding hostages that they took while starting this war.

Want a cease fire? Don't start a war and take hostages. Would ANY other country behave differently?

Another outstanding cut-to-the-core-of-the-issue post. Thank you!

[jhu72]

So my question would be what should the world do knowing that Hamas is holding these about 100 hostages, give Israel permission to kill as many innocent Palestinians as they would like, until all the hostages are free??

Simple. The World should stop behaving as if this is all Israel's fault, and yell at Hamas to release the hostages so that a fair cease fire can happen immediately. You see anyone that isn't Jewish marching in the street, demanding that the hostages get returned?

The world is saying: we don't care about these Israeli hostages, and we don't acknowledge the fact that Hamas is the crew that started this current war.

In short, the world should be screaming at Hamas. They're not.

So what signal does this send to Israel? It's saying: "we don't care about your people, we just care about the Palestinians, and we're going to pretend like you started this current war".

And folks wonder why the Israelis could give a fig about World opinion. The above is why. I'm having a hard time blaming them for not listening.

... there certainly are people "screaming" at Hamas -- the western governments are tightening the screws. There are Americans marching in the streets for Israel. There are people marching in the streets for Israel in other western nations. My government is spending tax dollars with ME ground deployments, with Aircraft Carrier task force deployments, for military aircraft deployments. At the highest levels, the US clearly supports Israel. This is not enough. Every voice must be raised in support?

Let's not confuse people who don't totally buy Israel's "spin" with people who don't support Israel in the main. Same for supporting the return of the hostages.

I fully expect Israel not to listen to the world.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

The World should stop behaving as if this is all Israel's fault, and yell at Hamas to release the hostages so that a fair cease fire can happen immediately. You see anyone that isn't Jewish marching in the street, demanding that the hostages get returned?

The world is saying: we don't care about these Israeli hostages, and we don't acknowledge the fact that Hamas is the crew that started this current war.

In short, the world should be screaming at Hamas. They're not.

So what signal does this send to Israel? It's saying: "we don't care about your people, we just care about the Palestinians, and we're going to pretend like you started this current war".

And folks wonder why the Israelis could give a fig about World opinion. The above is why. I'm having a hard time blaming them for not listening.

+100

You'd think the Palestinians would want to kill and protest Hamas members for trying leverage innocent hostages over every Palestinians livelihood. It so friggen backwards.

Such great comments and observations. youthathletics and a fan. Thank you. Does my heart good to read these clear-eyed perspectives.

[jhu72]

So my question would be what should the world do knowing that Hamas is holding these about 100 hostages, give Israel permission to kill as many innocent Palestinians as they would like, until all the hostages are free??

Simple. The World should stop behaving as if this is all Israel's fault, and yell at Hamas to release the hostages so that a fair cease fire can happen immediately. You see anyone that isn't Jewish marching in the street, demanding that the hostages get returned?

The world is saying: we don't care about these Israeli hostages, and we don't acknowledge the fact that Hamas is the crew that started this current war.

In short, the world should be screaming at Hamas. They're not.

So what signal does this send to Israel? It's saying: "we don't care about your people, we just care about the Palestinians, and we're going to pretend like you started this current war".

And folks wonder why the Israelis could give a fig about World opinion. The above is why. I'm having a hard time blaming them for not listening.

... there certainly are people "screaming" at Hamas -- the western governments are tightening the screws. There are Americans marching in the streets for Israel. There are people marching in the streets for Israel in other western nations. My government is spending tax dollars with ME ground deployments, with Aircraft Carrier task force deployments, for military aircraft deployments. At the highest levels, the US clearly supports Israel. This is not enough. Every voice must be raised in support?

Let's not confuse people who don't totally buy Israel's "spin" with people who don't support Israel in the main. Same for supporting the return of the hostages.

I fully expect Israel not to listen to the world.

So when the hostages are all released or dead, what then? How many Palestinians will you allow to be killed by the Israelis??

[jhu72]

For me, it's simple.

Hamas are holding hostages, and started this war. You want it to end? Give the hostages back, or, my preference, don't start wars if you don't want to be in one.

I'm having a hard time understand why everyone is whining about a cease fire while Hamas is holding hostages that they took while starting this war.

Want a cease fire? Don't start a war and take hostages. Would ANY other country behave differently?

Another outstanding cut-to-the-core-of-the-issue post. Thank you!

... so you become more reasonable when all the hostages are released? Somehow I doubt that.

[a fan]

... there certainly are people "screaming" at Hamas -- the western governments are tightening the screws. There are Americans marching in the streets for Israel. There are people marching in the streets for Israel in other western nations. My government is spending tax dollars with ME ground deployments, with Aircraft Carrier task force deployments, for military aircraft deployments. At the highest levels, the US clearly supports Israel. This is not enough. Every voice must be raised in support?

You said "world", and I directed my answer to that. Generally speaking, you're not hearing boo about the hostages. All you're hearing are cries of cease fire.

Let's not confuse people who don't totally buy Israel's "spin" with people who don't support Israel in the main. Same for supporting the return of the hostages.

Fair. For the record, I think Israel has handled things poorly in the 2000's, too. They need to get rid of this Administration...but that won't do much good so long as Hamas is still running things for the Palestinians. There's literally no one to negotiate with. So they're stuck.

I fully expect Israel not to listen to the world.

The current government has given up on the idea of peace or any change. Their position is obvious: they believe that Hamas won't relent until the Jewish people are gone. And Hamas, like it or not, represents the Palestinians. So...what do you do when the other side won't accept anything but annihilation for you? I have no clue.

I fully agree that the current Israeli Admin has made matters worse in the region. And again, imho, the ONLY solution is to put the UN in charge of Gaza, and pump money into it so there are good jobs.

[cradleandshoot]

Yes, that's a fair statement that many Americans, though only some quite heavily and most less so, experienced that trauma. And it had a real effect. And some "counterproductive" decisions, too.
There are all sorts of of traumas that people experience, indeed most people know someone who has experienced major traumas, if not directly. Often, though, we are unaware of the traumas someone we know suffered.
Sometimes these traumas are super personal, eg rape, incest, assault, etc...others are more communal, mass murder events, police violence, mob riots, etc...some are based in ideologies that target and terrorize wide swaths of people based on religion, ethnicity, race, gender...

... I think the trauma of 911, and America's reaction to it led to nothing but bad decisions. in the short term.

The trauma of 9/11 vs. the generational trauma that Jews have experienced is dramatically different. For that matter, the trauma the Palestinians have faced and are facing vs. the generational trauma of the Jews is dramatically different. My point isn't to have a trauma contest. I just don't want to lose sight of the depth and breadth of the trauma that Jews have and continue to experience. There's a reason why the Jews need Israel. The need for the Jews to have Israel is a deep, deep, very real need.

.... so the depth of that need should of course exempt Israel of any blame, accountability for the number of Palestinians killed in this war. I am not buying that, and its pretty clear fewer and fewer people in the world are willing to buy that. Israel has already lost the PR phase of the war or very close to it.

Well then my original question still stands. How much violence is too much? Hamas obviously planned and prepared for this massacre for a long time. They deliberately set up import tunnel and strategic facilities right where it put the Palestinians people in greatest danger. You have no problem with them locating them under hospitals, schools, mosques and other locations that would inevitably put Palestinians directly in the line of fire. They knew damn well what the Israeli response would be. It was exactly as brutal as it needed to be. The Israeli army underestimated how many tunnels there are. Over 400 miles of tunnels in a narrow strip of land 6 miles wide and 25 miles long. That is one hell of an engineering feet. I wonder where they got the heavy equipment and technology to pull that off? The vast majority of Palestinians either didn't know or condoned what Hamas was doing by keeping their mouths closed. War is hell and innocent people will die in large numbers. Many more are yet to die. If your aware of a better way to root out the Hamas terrorists who planned and executed this massacre then please share it. They planned this for a very long time. The fact they had the foresight to booby trap many of these sophisticated tunnels took a long time and took a lot of thought. Hell in some sections the explosives were built into the walls. They got the results they wanted. They arranged it so their fighters are totally blended in with the Palestinian people. These casualties are something Hamas planned and actually is vital to their success.

[a fan]

So my question would be what should the world do knowing that Hamas is holding these about 100 hostages, give Israel permission to kill as many innocent Palestinians as they would like, until all the hostages are free??

Simple. The World should stop behaving as if this is all Israel's fault, and yell at Hamas to release the hostages so that a fair cease fire can happen immediately. You see anyone that isn't Jewish marching in the street, demanding that the hostages get returned?

The world is saying: we don't care about these Israeli hostages, and we don't acknowledge the fact that Hamas is the crew that started this current war.

In short, the world should be screaming at Hamas. They're not.

So what signal does this send to Israel? It's saying: "we don't care about your people, we just care about the Palestinians, and we're going to pretend like you started this current war".

And folks wonder why the Israelis could give a fig about World opinion. The above is why. I'm having a hard time blaming them for not listening.

... there certainly are people "screaming" at Hamas -- the western governments are tightening the screws. There are Americans marching in the streets for Israel. There are people marching in the streets for Israel in other western nations. My government is spending tax dollars with ME ground deployments, with Aircraft Carrier task force deployments, for military aircraft deployments. At the highest levels, the US clearly supports Israel. This is not enough. Every voice must be raised in support?

Let's not confuse people who don't totally buy Israel's "spin" with people who don't support Israel in the main. Same for supporting the return of the hostages.

I fully expect Israel not to listen to the world.

So when the hostages are all released or dead, what then? How many Palestinians will you allow to be killed by the Israelis??

I don't want ANYONE killed. But come on.....what happened when we were hit on 9/11? How much did we flip out? How many civilians have we been killing for the last 22 years? You know as well as I do that at no point have we stopped killing civilians at any time since 9/11. What do you suppose our total is?

Wanna bet it's more than 20k? And yet.....no one protested, outside of protests before the Iraq War. Our drone program is operational this very day. Any protests in the street?

So as I've said before, it's more than hypocritical for us to judge the Israelis. We have ZERO standing, and neither do our allies that have participated in our GWOT.

You know perfectly well that I'm the biggest peacenik on the board. If I was in charge? Gaza would have been in the hands of the UN all this time, and it would resemble a 1st world nation by now, instead of a pile of rubble.

The sad thing is: if the Palestinians had accepted that it "lost" the land, and moved on way back in the 50's? They'd be enjoying a 1st world economy just like the rest of Israel, and there wouldn't be one inch of barbed wire or fencing anywhere. And they'd get to enjoy this land just as much as the Israelis'. Instead? They chose violence and war. Now no one gets what they want.

[cradleandshoot]

... there certainly are people "screaming" at Hamas -- the western governments are tightening the screws. There are Americans marching in the streets for Israel. There are people marching in the streets for Israel in other western nations. My government is spending tax dollars with ME ground deployments, with Aircraft Carrier task force deployments, for military aircraft deployments. At the highest levels, the US clearly supports Israel. This is not enough. Every voice must be raised in support?

You said "world", and I directed my answer to that. Generally speaking, you're not hearing boo about the hostages. All you're hearing are cries of cease fire.

Let's not confuse people who don't totally buy Israel's "spin" with people who don't support Israel in the main. Same for supporting the return of the hostages.

Fair. For the record, I think Israel has handled things poorly in the 2000's, too. They need to get rid of this Administration...but that won't do much good so long as Hamas is still running things for the Palestinians. There's literally no one to negotiate with. So they're stuck.

I fully expect Israel not to listen to the world.

The current government has given up on the idea of peace or any change. Their position is obvious: they believe that Hamas won't relent until the Jewish people are gone. And Hamas, like it or not, represents the Palestinians. So...what do you do when the other side won't accept anything but annihilation for you? I have no clue.

I fully agree that the current Israeli Admin has made matters worse in the region. And again, imho, the ONLY solution is to put the UN in charge of Gaza, and pump money into it so there are good jobs.

That is an excellent suggestion. The one thing that is painfully obvious is that Hamas must go. This massacre was a well organized and well planned. To what end they chose to do so I have no idea.

[jhu72]

Yes, that's a fair statement that many Americans, though only some quite heavily and most less so, experienced that trauma. And it had a real effect. And some "counterproductive" decisions, too.
There are all sorts of of traumas that people experience, indeed most people know someone who has experienced major traumas, if not directly. Often, though, we are unaware of the traumas someone we know suffered.
Sometimes these traumas are super personal, eg rape, incest, assault, etc...others are more communal, mass murder events, police violence, mob riots, etc...some are based in ideologies that target and terrorize wide swaths of people based on religion, ethnicity, race, gender...

... I think the trauma of 911, and America's reaction to it led to nothing but bad decisions. in the short term.

The trauma of 9/11 vs. the generational trauma that Jews have experienced is dramatically different. For that matter, the trauma the Palestinians have faced and are facing vs. the generational trauma of the Jews is dramatically different. My point isn't to have a trauma contest. I just don't want to lose sight of the depth and breadth of the trauma that Jews have and continue to experience. There's a reason why the Jews need Israel. The need for the Jews to have Israel is a deep, deep, very real need.

.... so the depth of that need should of course exempt Israel of any blame, accountability for the number of Palestinians killed in this war. I am not buying that, and its pretty clear fewer and fewer people in the world are willing to buy that. Israel has already lost the PR phase of the war or very close to it.

Well then my original question still stands. How much violence is too much? Hamas obviously planned and prepared for this massacre for a long time. They deliberately set up import tunnel and strategic facilities right where it put the Palestinians people in greatest danger. You have no problem with them locating them under hospitals, schools, mosques and other locations that would inevitably put Palestinians directly in the line of fire. They knew damn well what the Israeli response would be. It was exactly as brutal as it needed to be. The Israeli army underestimated how many tunnels there are. Over 400 miles of tunnels in a narrow strip of land 6 miles wide and 25 miles long. That is one hell of an engineering feet. I wonder where they got the heavy equipment and technology to pull that off? The vast majority of Palestinians either didn't know or condoned what Hamas was doing by keeping their mouths closed. War is hell and innocent people will die in large numbers. Many more are yet to die. If your aware of a better way to root out the Hamas terrorists who planned and executed this massacre then please share it. They planned this for a very long time. The fact they had the foresight to booby trap many of these sophisticated tunnels took a long time and took a lot of thought. Hell in some sections the explosives were built into the walls. They got the results they wanted. They arranged it so their fighters are totally blended in with the Palestinian people. These casualties are something Hamas planned and actually is vital to their success.

The funny thing about blaming all Palestinian deaths on Hamas, you know how you and lots of others claim Hamas were holding Palestinian's hostage and this is what caused their death. The bulk of the aerial bombs used were 1000 and 2000 lb bombs according to US intelligence. That's a lot of bomb for a densely populated city if you are trying to kill Hamas and spare the innocent Palestinians. Big F*ing bombs! US Military had advocated for 250 lb and in fact at the start of the war had shipped them a supply of 250s. Think they have stopped using 2000s based on blowback from US military.

This according to CNN, NYT and Business Insider in early November. Lots of articles from all over the place since early November through January.

[jhu72]

So Bibi today turned down an Arab peace plan. Arabs offered to pay to rebuild Gaza, establish a new, younger governing coalition in Gaza, to move forward with the Abraham Accords and all they want in return is an agreement that the Palestinian (Gaza) is an independent country at some point TBD in the future. US has agreed to this. Bibi said NO, no additional negotiation, no sounds interesting, JUST NO!!

BIBI HAS GOT TO GO!!

[a fan]

So Bibi today turned down an Arab peace plan. Arabs offered to pay to rebuild Gaza, establish a new, younger governing coalition in Gaza, to move forward with the Abraham Accords and all they want in return is an agreement that the Palestinian (Gaza) is an independent country at some point TBD in the future. US has agreed to this. Bibi said NO, no additional negotiation, no sounds interesting, JUST NO!!

BIBI HAS GOT TO GO!!

+1000. What possible reason would you have to not jump at this offer. Gaza would be out of your hair.

And NOTHING can guarantee terrorists won't hit Israel again, so.....take the freaking deal.