Israel and Zionism

[a fan]

Apples to apples son.

Sure thing, old man.

So many deflections.

Pot, meet kettle. Please, keep ignoring all the times Israel offered land and peace.

The sad thing is: all that the Palestinians had to do decades ago is: don't blow stuff up, and don't tell the world you want to wipe out the Jewish people. If they had done that? Israel would have been a full democracy YEARS ago, because the Jewish population wouldn't have to live in fear of being slaughtered. And Muslims would have free movement everywhere in the region.

I'm delighted to blame Israel for all their bad actions in this mess. Things like their current scorched Earth policy are horrifying and inexcusable. But to ignore the terrorism that has been foisted on Israel for decades now is a non-starter.

You continue to ignore history. Israel was at origin dupposed to be a democracy with equsl rights and protections. That has never been extant. Again ignoring history.

History is irrelevant. Until you and your crew figure that out, we'll never have peace in this region. If history was pertinent....you'd be giving your sweet house on the East Coast back to the Native Americans. I'm sure you'll give them the keys to your home any day now, right?

All that matters is now. If you can't figure out that every piece of land on Earth was stolen/conquered/whatever many times since man could walk, you're lost at sea. Should we "give the land back" to the Italians because Romans "owned" the land in question before Muslims showed up?

Rebecca of Sunnybrook farm cones to mind. Muslims do not have equal standing under the laws in Israel. You would know that is you bothered to read or read and retained, Your muslim comment reminds me of the “some of my best frirnds are black” in this country, study up.

Says they guy who told us about all the Jewish people you know. Only you get to do that, is that it? Cool.

Nope, Muslims don't have fully equal standing under the law. So what? Jewish people don't have equal standing in any of the surrounding countries.....are you going to complain about that, too? Or do only the Israelis have to meet your standard of behavior?

Please, by all means, call up the Israelis, and tell them about your sooper-cool idea to let the Muslim majority run Israel. I'm sure they'll LOVE your idea, and jump right on that.

But sure, I'm the naive guy, and you have this all figured out. Cool

[jhu72]

International law, my ass... So much (hypocritical) compassion—for everyone but the Jews and Israel.

There was the "Jewish Problem" for over two thousand years. What to do with the Jews? So Hitler and his regime came up with a solution, a final solution. This solution obviously wasn't perfect, especially for the Jews. But, at the time, as you're speaking to, this solution was far from outrageous. It was only after the fact when the world saw what this solution actually looked like up close and personal did people people flinch. Then, post WWII, the Jews come up with their own Final Solution. And, though the world consensus may not like this solution, allowing the Jews to have a homeland and the ability to defend themselves only makes sense. OuttaNowhere, you're not wrong. At all.

Thank you, sir.

And it bears re-quoting:

“It doesn’t matter what the world says. It doesn’t matter what they say about Israel anywhere else. The only thing that matters is that we can exist here. Unless it’s clear that there is a price to pay for Jewish lives, we will not be able to survive."

--David Ben-Gurion to Ariel Sharon (circa 1948)

... I think you are going to find DBG very short sighted. You will be at war forever. So your answer to the question how many Gazans must die is a very clear --- ALL OF THEM. And of course that will insure Israel's security. Again color me skeptical. When all this started I had hoped I would see something different, that Israel would handle this differently than in the past, they would look outside the box for a solution. What I have seen so far is the past.

[old salt]

Given that the Houthi's in Yemen are so supportive of the Palestinians that they are willing to make war on the rest of the world, the obvious solution is for the Houthi to offer land in Yemen to resettle Palestinians & build a society, funded by oil rich Mideast nations who want peace.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

International law, my ass... So much (hypocritical) compassion—for everyone but the Jews and Israel.

There was the "Jewish Problem" for over two thousand years. What to do with the Jews? So Hitler and his regime came up with a solution, a final solution. This solution obviously wasn't perfect, especially for the Jews. But, at the time, as you're speaking to, this solution was far from outrageous. It was only after the fact when the world saw what this solution actually looked like up close and personal did people people flinch. Then, post WWII, the Jews come up with their own Final Solution. And, though the world consensus may not like this solution, allowing the Jews to have a homeland and the ability to defend themselves only makes sense. OuttaNowhere, you're not wrong. At all.

Thank you, sir.

And it bears re-quoting:

“It doesn’t matter what the world says. It doesn’t matter what they say about Israel anywhere else. The only thing that matters is that we can exist here. Unless it’s clear that there is a price to pay for Jewish lives, we will not be able to survive."

--David Ben-Gurion to Ariel Sharon (circa 1948)

... I think you are going to find DBG very short sighted. You will be at war forever. So your answer to the question how many Gazans must die is a very clear --- ALL OF THEM. And of course that will insure Israel's security. Again color me skeptical. When all this started I had hoped I would see something different, that Israel would handle this differently than in the past, they would look outside the box for a solution. What I have seen so far is the past.

Why are you tagging/quoting me on this? What does what Ben-Gurion said to Sharon have to do with being at war forever (as if you can look into the future and know such a thing), or insuring Israel's security?

I also don't see anything in either Baducci's or my comments about how many Gazan's must die.

So after Hamas invaded Israel and slaughtered hundreds of innocent victims and took hundreds more hostage, you hoped Israel would handle this differently? What should they have done?

Let me ask you--are you Jewish? Have you ever lived in Israel? Ever lived in a country that was invaded by a group intent on your annihilation? I'm just looking to get an idea of where you're coming from as I've never interacted with you in the past, (that I can recall, anyway).

[jhu72]

International law, my ass... So much (hypocritical) compassion—for everyone but the Jews and Israel.

There was the "Jewish Problem" for over two thousand years. What to do with the Jews? So Hitler and his regime came up with a solution, a final solution. This solution obviously wasn't perfect, especially for the Jews. But, at the time, as you're speaking to, this solution was far from outrageous. It was only after the fact when the world saw what this solution actually looked like up close and personal did people people flinch. Then, post WWII, the Jews come up with their own Final Solution. And, though the world consensus may not like this solution, allowing the Jews to have a homeland and the ability to defend themselves only makes sense. OuttaNowhere, you're not wrong. At all.

Thank you, sir.

And it bears re-quoting:

“It doesn’t matter what the world says. It doesn’t matter what they say about Israel anywhere else. The only thing that matters is that we can exist here. Unless it’s clear that there is a price to pay for Jewish lives, we will not be able to survive."

--David Ben-Gurion to Ariel Sharon (circa 1948)

... I think you are going to find DBG very short sighted. You will be at war forever. So your answer to the question how many Gazans must die is a very clear --- ALL OF THEM. And of course that will insure Israel's security. Again color me skeptical. When all this started I had hoped I would see something different, that Israel would handle this differently than in the past, they would look outside the box for a solution. What I have seen so far is the past.

Why are you tagging/quoting me on this? What does what Ben-Gurion said to Sharon have to do with being at war forever (as if you can look into the future and know such a thing), or insuring Israel's security?

I also don't see anything in either Baducci's or my comments about how many Gazan's must die. -- you raised the DBG quote. I took it that you supported that POV. Which has already proven a failure. Israel has shown numerous times a willingness to kill lots of people who have killed Israelis, but yet Israel keeps getting attacked and Israeli's killed. Everyone has gotten DBG's point, and nothing has changed.


So after Hamas invaded Israel and slaughtered hundreds of innocent victims and took hundreds more hostage, you hoped Israel would handle this differently? What should they have done? -- they have done something different. This round of killing they are killing the largest number of Gazans ever I believe. I had hoped they would behave more proportionately. The numbers are way out of order.

What was really needed and is needed in the future is a greater dedication to peace. Since the previous round of killing, Israel has wasted ~15 years. There is a minority in Israel that doesn't want peace, this includes the current government.

Let me ask you--are you Jewish? Have you ever lived in Israel? Ever lived in a country that was invaded by a group intent on your annihilation? I'm just looking to get an idea of where you're coming from as I've never interacted with you in the past, (that I can recall, anyway).

... no, I was raised Christian and became an atheist in middle school. My wife is Jewish and we have three kids considered Jewish. Wife and I were married in a synagogue. As a consequence I live in a largely American "Jewish Lite" world. My youngest daughter has been to Israel a couple of times, I never have, neither my wife. Saying all of this I am not a blind partisan where Israel can do no wrong. I very much oppose the current government, and the crook leading it. I don't have to have lived in Israel to understand the difficulties and issues.

[OCanada]

Apples to apples son.

Sure thing, old man.

So many deflections.

Pot, meet kettle. Please, keep ignoring all the times Israel offered land and peace.

The sad thing is: all that the Palestinians had to do decades ago is: don't blow stuff up, and don't tell the world you want to wipe out the Jewish people. If they had done that? Israel would have been a full democracy YEARS ago, because the Jewish population wouldn't have to live in fear of being slaughtered. And Muslims would have free movement everywhere in the region.

I'm delighted to blame Israel for all their bad actions in this mess. Things like their current scorched Earth policy are horrifying and inexcusable. But to ignore the terrorism that has been foisted on Israel for decades now is a non-starter.

You continue to ignore history. Israel was at origin dupposed to be a democracy with equsl rights and protections. That has never been extant. Again ignoring history.

History is irrelevant. Until you and your crew figure that out, we'll never have peace in this region. If history was pertinent....you'd be giving your sweet house on the East Coast back to the Native Americans. I'm sure you'll give them the keys to your home any day now, right?

All that matters is now. If you can't figure out that every piece of land on Earth was stolen/conquered/whatever many times since man could walk, you're lost at sea. Should we "give the land back" to the Italians because Romans "owned" the land in question before Muslims showed up?

Rebecca of Sunnybrook farm cones to mind. Muslims do not have equal standing under the laws in Israel. You would know that is you bothered to read or read and retained, Your muslim comment reminds me of the “some of my best frirnds are black” in this country, study up.

Says they guy who told us about all the Jewish people you know. Only you get to do that, is that it? Cool.

Nope, Muslims don't have fully equal standing under the law. So what? Jewish people don't have equal standing in any of the surrounding countries.....are you going to complain about that, too? Or do only the Israelis have to meet your standard of behavior?

Please, by all means, call up the Israelis, and tell them about your sooper-cool idea to let the Muslim majority run Israel. I'm sure they'll LOVE your idea, and jump right on that.

But sure, I'm the naive guy, and you have this all figured out. Cool

“Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it”

Kind of a long history and illiterate series of non sequiturs. To top it off you attribute to me something i never said and do not believe. Seems you are confused. Do let’s discuss the Oslo accord and that great peace offering. Remember the Suez Canal crisis when Israel, France and the UK sent their troops in and Eisenhower had to step in?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -palestine

Matt chided me for being confrontational when i asked one question. You ask tons of questions to which you should know the answers or would if you did not ignore history.

My main point has been and is the same ol same ol. Is not going to work any longer. We must learn from history to avoid making the same mistakes again and again. My goal is a durable peace which i have said often.

You also seem to think all Israelis agree with the government and their leadership. They do not. Neither does much of the American diaspora.


https://www.theglobalist.com/the-charge ... netanyahu/

America fought for Independence? Remember the Boston Tea Party? No taxation w/o tepresentation? Issues are far more serious here

[OCanada]

B’TSELEM is an Israeli NGO concerned with human rights issues. I linked to one article providing some background. They have years of articles, videos etc.


https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/ ... _apartheid

[OCanada]

There is a website: Safaria tgat contains a complete library of Jewish scripture, commentary etc. i doubt there would be interest but then that is not up to me. There is an app for the site

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

International law, my ass... So much (hypocritical) compassion—for everyone but the Jews and Israel.

There was the "Jewish Problem" for over two thousand years. What to do with the Jews? So Hitler and his regime came up with a solution, a final solution. This solution obviously wasn't perfect, especially for the Jews. But, at the time, as you're speaking to, this solution was far from outrageous. It was only after the fact when the world saw what this solution actually looked like up close and personal did people people flinch. Then, post WWII, the Jews come up with their own Final Solution. And, though the world consensus may not like this solution, allowing the Jews to have a homeland and the ability to defend themselves only makes sense. OuttaNowhere, you're not wrong. At all.

Thank you, sir.

And it bears re-quoting:

“It doesn’t matter what the world says. It doesn’t matter what they say about Israel anywhere else. The only thing that matters is that we can exist here. Unless it’s clear that there is a price to pay for Jewish lives, we will not be able to survive."

--David Ben-Gurion to Ariel Sharon (circa 1948)

... I think you are going to find DBG very short sighted. You will be at war forever. So your answer to the question how many Gazans must die is a very clear --- ALL OF THEM. And of course that will insure Israel's security. Again color me skeptical. When all this started I had hoped I would see something different, that Israel would handle this differently than in the past, they would look outside the box for a solution. What I have seen so far is the past.

Why are you tagging/quoting me on this? What does what Ben-Gurion said to Sharon have to do with being at war forever (as if you can look into the future and know such a thing), or insuring Israel's security?

I also don't see anything in either Baducci's or my comments about how many Gazan's must die. -- you raised the DBG quote. I took it that you supported that POV. Which has already proven a failure. Israel has shown numerous times a willingness to kill lots of people who have killed Israelis, but yet Israel keeps getting attacked and Israeli's killed. Everyone has gotten DBG's point, and nothing has changed.


So after Hamas invaded Israel and slaughtered hundreds of innocent victims and took hundreds more hostage, you hoped Israel would handle this differently? What should they have done? -- they have done something different. This round of killing they are killing the largest number of Gazans ever I believe. I had hoped they would behave more proportionately. The numbers are way out of order.

What was really needed and is needed in the future is a greater dedication to peace. Since the previous round of killing, Israel has wasted ~15 years. There is a minority in Israel that doesn't want peace, this includes the current government.

Let me ask you--are you Jewish? Have you ever lived in Israel? Ever lived in a country that was invaded by a group intent on your annihilation? I'm just looking to get an idea of where you're coming from as I've never interacted with you in the past, (that I can recall, anyway).

... no, I was raised Christian and became an atheist in middle school. My wife is Jewish and we have three kids considered Jewish. Wife and I were married in a synagogue. As a consequence I live in a largely American "Jewish Lite" world. My youngest daughter has been to Israel a couple of times, I never have, neither my wife. Saying all of this I am not a blind partisan where Israel can do no wrong. I very much oppose the current government, and the crook leading it. I don't have to have lived in Israel to understand the difficulties and issues.

I'll just say this: I don't know what racism does to a people, to a nation, to an individual. I remember when Ferguson, Missouri was burning. Many on Facebook condemned the actions of the Black community at the time. I posted a picture of Emmett Till's puffed and beaten face as he lay dead in his open casket. I posed the question: What does this do to a race of people who have hundreds of years of such treatment in their past, in their hearts, in their subconscious? Yes--we all know it was wrong and counter-productive and blah-blah-blah. You want to go tell the Black community those things? You'd better be Black. You'd better have walked in their shoes and lived in their neighborhoods and suffered beatings and discrimination and hate and the rest of what it's been like for many to have grown up Black in America.

Yet some of you have it all figured out concerning Israel and how they're conducting their war against Hamas.

Again--I don't know what centuries of racism and persecution and oppression and murder do to a race of people. I cannot imagine what it's like for Jewish people living in Israel, who have the Holocaust in their rear view mirror, to hear some Arab nations/Islamic groups vomiting out a variation of the same Jew-hating propaganda the filthy stinking Nazi's did. I don't know what it feels like to live in a country the size of Rhode Island surrounded by hostile neighbors who have attacked and killed Israel's citizens frequently in very recent history. How can I (or any of you for that matter) sit in judgment about how Israel is dealing with what Hamas did to them? Here in safe, comfy, uninvaded America, sitting on our couches typing away on our laptops in our warm furnished homes in our (I'm making a guess) safe suburban neighborhoods, with our high-minded, pious sentiments about what Israel should and shouldn't do. I think it's naive and hypocritical. What do we know about it?

It's one thing when a nation is the aggressor. It was easy to condemn Japan, Germany and other conquering pillaging murdering nations. But the Jews have been trying to exist in peace with their neighbors for millennia, yet are continuously being driven out of one country after the next, being refused entry to one country after another. Hated, discriminated against, vilified, persecuted, branded, hunted, killed, systematically exterminated. What does that do to a race and their psyche? Do you know from experience? I can't sit in judgment of a government that is fighting so their people can survive--like actually exist as a nation.

How casually some of you discuss this situation. Do you know what it's like to live in fear for your life because of your race? Go live as a Jew in Israel for a while, enough time to experience hearing, through the media and word of mouth, about neighboring nations and their Jew-hating, Jew-killing rhetoric; enough time to hear bombs exploding in your neighborhood killing your friends and family; enough time to be invaded by raping, beating, hostage-taking slaughterers intent on your final annihilation. You live there and experience those things--then come talk to me about Israel's overreaction and improper means of conducting war.

[jhu72]

Cracks in war cabinet beginning to show. They reflect in part the disagreement in the population in the desired priority in war goals. The US is likely to be playing a part as well.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/herzog-no ... right-now/

THE WORLD 'DIDN'T GIVE A DAMN' ABOUT TERROR AGAINST ISRAELIS

Herzog: ‘No Israelis in their right mind’ are thinking about peace process right now

Speaking in Davos, president says Israelis are worried about their basic safety in wake of October 7, have lost trust over the years as Palestinians glorify terror

By LAZAR BERMAN 1.18.24


Speaking at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, next to a photo of one-year-old Israeli hostage Kfir Bibas, President Isaac Herzog said on Thursday that Israelis are not able to think about a peace process with the Palestinians right now.

“If you ask an average Israeli now about his or her mental state, nobody in his right mind is willing now to think about what will be the solution of the peace agreements,” he said in an interview on the WEF main stage, “because everybody wants to know: Can we be promised real safety in the future?”

After the unprecedented slaughter in southern Israel by Hamas terrorists on October 7, “every Israeli wants to know that he will not be attacked in the same way from north or south or east,” Herzog said.

The question of what Gaza will look like after a potential Israeli victory over Hamas has emerged as a major point of contention between Jerusalem and its allies. Last week, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reportedly rejected a proposal from US Secretary of State Antony Blinken that would have seen Saudi Arabia normalize relations with Israel in exchange for Jerusalem agreeing to provide the Palestinians with a pathway toward statehood.

“Israel lost trust in the peace processes because they see that terror is glorified by our neighbors,” said Herzog.

On Wednesday, Blinken said at Davos that Israel cannot achieve “genuine security” without a pathway to a Palestinian state, insisting such a move could help unify the Middle East and isolate Israel’s top antagonist, Iran.

The president stressed that “the war is not only between Israel and Hamas.”

“The world has to face it point blank: There is an empire of evil emanating from Iran,” said Herzog, adding that such activities are going to “undermine any peace process and any stability in the world.”

Herzog said the Hamas terror group must be uprooted to “enable a better future for the Palestinians who are our neighbors.” Israel is also fighting for the entire free world, and Europe and the United States are next, he declared.

Herzog also called for “a very strong coalition” to come together to face Iran and its proxies.

Last month, the United States announced a 10-nation coalition to quell Houthi missile and drone attacks on ships transiting the Red Sea, with Britain, France, Bahrain and Italy among countries joining the “multinational security initiative.”

Herzog also accused the world of “not giving a damn” about Israeli terror victims in the years before October 7.

Asked about the day after the war, Herzog said he envisioned a “coalition of nations who are willing to commit to rebuilding Gaza” in a way that enables the safety of Israelis and Palestinians, and a different future for Gaza.

He said the coalition would be made of “strong Western forces, strong regional forces,” in dialogue with Gazans and the Palestinian Authority.

Netanyahu has repeatedly expressed opposition to the Palestinian Authority taking control of Gaza after the war, declaring that Gaza must be demilitarized and stating that Israel wants to carve out a buffer zone to prevent a repeat of the October 7 attack.

Israel would instead prefer a multinational authority, including Arab allies, incorporating a Palestinian council and technocrats, two regional politicians told Reuters. But most Arab states are unwilling to get involved. Arab and US officials have told The Times of Israel repeatedly over the past two months that Arab support for the reconstruction of Gaza is far from a given and that it will at best amount to a placeholder until the Palestinian Authority is ready to take over and advance a two-state solution.

The United Arab Emirates has explicitly stated, apparently in response to Netanyahu’s contention that the UAE and Saudi Arabia would finance the Gaza Strip’s reconstruction, that it needs to “see a viable two-state solution plan, a road map that is serious, before we talk about the next day and rebuilding the infrastructure of Gaza.”

In Davos, Herzog also revealed that he met with officials from the Red Cross in Israel two days ago, “to discuss the dire medical situation of the hostages, the clear and present danger to our hostages.”

“We are praying that all the medication will reach them, but that’s only the beginning,” he added.

On Wednesday, five truckloads of medicine entered Gaza, after undergoing Israeli security checks, according to authorities.

The shipment included long-awaited medicine for Israeli hostages held by Hamas, many of whom rely on prescription drugs for chronic conditions, as well as medical supplies, food, and other humanitarian aid for Palestinians in the war-torn Gaza Strip, as part of a deal brokered by Qatar and France.

A senior Hamas official said that for every box provided for the hostages, 1,000 boxes of medicine were being sent in for Palestinians.

The medical aid earmarked for the hostages has been desperately needed since their abduction on October 7 during the brutal massacre carried out by Hamas inside Israel, in which some 1,200 people were murdered and nearly 250 were kidnapped, including children and the elderly.

[cradleandshoot]

It is a fair question to ask how such a large # of Palestinians allowed Hamas tunnels and command bunkers to be built under hospitals, schools, mosques and other civilian facilities. A cynical person would say that Hamas was responsible for the retaliation that followed their massacre. They must have felt very safe using the people they claim to represent as human shields. It didn't seem to bother them one damn bit.

So how much violence is too much violence?? The catalyst for the ensuing violence is 100% on Hamas. War is hell. Churchill didn't lose any sleep when he firebombed Dresden. A city with zero importance on a strategic level. That was payback for V1 and V2 rocket attacks on London.

Curtis LeMay was considered a hero for the firebombing of Tokyo. General Sherman was a hero up North for burning Atlanta to the ground.The examples go on and on. The difference now is we all get death and destruction on the nightly news in beautiful HD TV.

[MDlaxfan76]

International law, my ass... So much (hypocritical) compassion—for everyone but the Jews and Israel.

There was the "Jewish Problem" for over two thousand years. What to do with the Jews? So Hitler and his regime came up with a solution, a final solution. This solution obviously wasn't perfect, especially for the Jews. But, at the time, as you're speaking to, this solution was far from outrageous. It was only after the fact when the world saw what this solution actually looked like up close and personal did people people flinch. Then, post WWII, the Jews come up with their own Final Solution. And, though the world consensus may not like this solution, allowing the Jews to have a homeland and the ability to defend themselves only makes sense. OuttaNowhere, you're not wrong. At all.

Thank you, sir.

And it bears re-quoting:

“It doesn’t matter what the world says. It doesn’t matter what they say about Israel anywhere else. The only thing that matters is that we can exist here. Unless it’s clear that there is a price to pay for Jewish lives, we will not be able to survive."

--David Ben-Gurion to Ariel Sharon (circa 1948)

... I think you are going to find DBG very short sighted. You will be at war forever. So your answer to the question how many Gazans must die is a very clear --- ALL OF THEM. And of course that will insure Israel's security. Again color me skeptical. When all this started I had hoped I would see something different, that Israel would handle this differently than in the past, they would look outside the box for a solution. What I have seen so far is the past.

Why are you tagging/quoting me on this? What does what Ben-Gurion said to Sharon have to do with being at war forever (as if you can look into the future and know such a thing), or insuring Israel's security?

I also don't see anything in either Baducci's or my comments about how many Gazan's must die. -- you raised the DBG quote. I took it that you supported that POV. Which has already proven a failure. Israel has shown numerous times a willingness to kill lots of people who have killed Israelis, but yet Israel keeps getting attacked and Israeli's killed. Everyone has gotten DBG's point, and nothing has changed.


So after Hamas invaded Israel and slaughtered hundreds of innocent victims and took hundreds more hostage, you hoped Israel would handle this differently? What should they have done? -- they have done something different. This round of killing they are killing the largest number of Gazans ever I believe. I had hoped they would behave more proportionately. The numbers are way out of order.

What was really needed and is needed in the future is a greater dedication to peace. Since the previous round of killing, Israel has wasted ~15 years. There is a minority in Israel that doesn't want peace, this includes the current government.

Let me ask you--are you Jewish? Have you ever lived in Israel? Ever lived in a country that was invaded by a group intent on your annihilation? I'm just looking to get an idea of where you're coming from as I've never interacted with you in the past, (that I can recall, anyway).

... no, I was raised Christian and became an atheist in middle school. My wife is Jewish and we have three kids considered Jewish. Wife and I were married in a synagogue. As a consequence I live in a largely American "Jewish Lite" world. My youngest daughter has been to Israel a couple of times, I never have, neither my wife. Saying all of this I am not a blind partisan where Israel can do no wrong. I very much oppose the current government, and the crook leading it. I don't have to have lived in Israel to understand the difficulties and issues.

I'll just say this: I don't know what racism does to a people, to a nation, to an individual. I remember when Ferguson, Missouri was burning. Many on Facebook condemned the actions of the Black community at the time. I posted a picture of Emmett Till's puffed and beaten face as he lay dead in his open casket. I posed the question: What does this do to a race of people who have hundreds of years of such treatment in their past, in their hearts, in their subconscious? Yes--we all know it was wrong and counter-productive and blah-blah-blah. You want to go tell the Black community those things? You'd better be Black. You'd better have walked in their shoes and lived in their neighborhoods and suffered beatings and discrimination and hate and the rest of what it's been like for many to have grown up Black in America.

Yet some of you have it all figured out concerning Israel and how they're conducting their war against Hamas.

Again--I don't know what centuries of racism and persecution and oppression and murder do to a race of people. I cannot imagine what it's like for Jewish people living in Israel, who have the Holocaust in their rear view mirror, to hear some Arab nations/Islamic groups vomiting out a variation of the same Jew-hating propaganda the filthy stinking Nazi's did. I don't know what it feels like to live in a country the size of Rhode Island surrounded by hostile neighbors who have attacked and killed Israel's citizens frequently in very recent history. How can I (or any of you for that matter) sit in judgment about how Israel is dealing with what Hamas did to them? Here in safe, comfy, uninvaded America, sitting on our couches typing away on our laptops in our warm furnished homes in our (I'm making a guess) safe suburban neighborhoods, with our high-minded, pious sentiments about what Israel should and shouldn't do. I think it's naive and hypocritical. What do we know about it?

It's one thing when a nation is the aggressor. It was easy to condemn Japan, Germany and other conquering pillaging murdering nations. But the Jews have been trying to exist in peace with their neighbors for millennia, yet are continuously being driven out of one country after the next, being refused entry to one country after another. Hated, discriminated against, vilified, persecuted, branded, hunted, killed, systematically exterminated. What does that do to a race and their psyche? Do you know from experience? I can't sit in judgment of a government that is fighting so their people can survive--like actually exist as a nation.

How casually some of you discuss this situation. Do you know what it's like to live in fear for your life because of your race? Go live as a Jew in Israel for a while, enough time to experience hearing, through the media and word of mouth, about neighboring nations and their Jew-hating, Jew-killing rhetoric; enough time to hear bombs exploding in your neighborhood killing your friends and family; enough time to be invaded by raping, beating, hostage-taking slaughterers intent on your final annihilation. You live there and experience those things--then come talk to me about Israel's overreaction and improper means of conducting war.

I think your challenge about walking in another's shoes is quite appropriate. It's all too easy for those who have not experienced generations of trauma to dismiss it.

And this trauma is indeed inevitably going to lead to choices that as you said, may be "counterproductive".

I quite agree about the many generations of trauma for the Jewish people, and specifically the perspectives of Israelis who have lived with the potentiality of threats from neighbors, and frequent terror attacks.

Two thoughts:

1) Decisions made by specific governments and leaders can indeed prove to be "counterproductive" and it's not unreasonable to challenge those decisions as not being effective to achieve desired outcomes and instead more likely to lead to more cycles of trauma.

2) Trauma is not limited to the Jewish people in this question of how to achieve peace and a failure to recognize the traumas in other parties only leads to even worse decisions and behaviors.

Finally, I think it's consistent with what you wrote that those of us who have not suffered those traumas should be humble in our assumptions. We can't really know, we can only attempt to empathize best we can.

[cradleandshoot]

International law, my ass... So much (hypocritical) compassion—for everyone but the Jews and Israel.

There was the "Jewish Problem" for over two thousand years. What to do with the Jews? So Hitler and his regime came up with a solution, a final solution. This solution obviously wasn't perfect, especially for the Jews. But, at the time, as you're speaking to, this solution was far from outrageous. It was only after the fact when the world saw what this solution actually looked like up close and personal did people people flinch. Then, post WWII, the Jews come up with their own Final Solution. And, though the world consensus may not like this solution, allowing the Jews to have a homeland and the ability to defend themselves only makes sense. OuttaNowhere, you're not wrong. At all.

Thank you, sir.

And it bears re-quoting:

“It doesn’t matter what the world says. It doesn’t matter what they say about Israel anywhere else. The only thing that matters is that we can exist here. Unless it’s clear that there is a price to pay for Jewish lives, we will not be able to survive."

--David Ben-Gurion to Ariel Sharon (circa 1948)

... I think you are going to find DBG very short sighted. You will be at war forever. So your answer to the question how many Gazans must die is a very clear --- ALL OF THEM. And of course that will insure Israel's security. Again color me skeptical. When all this started I had hoped I would see something different, that Israel would handle this differently than in the past, they would look outside the box for a solution. What I have seen so far is the past.

Why are you tagging/quoting me on this? What does what Ben-Gurion said to Sharon have to do with being at war forever (as if you can look into the future and know such a thing), or insuring Israel's security?

I also don't see anything in either Baducci's or my comments about how many Gazan's must die. -- you raised the DBG quote. I took it that you supported that POV. Which has already proven a failure. Israel has shown numerous times a willingness to kill lots of people who have killed Israelis, but yet Israel keeps getting attacked and Israeli's killed. Everyone has gotten DBG's point, and nothing has changed.


So after Hamas invaded Israel and slaughtered hundreds of innocent victims and took hundreds more hostage, you hoped Israel would handle this differently? What should they have done? -- they have done something different. This round of killing they are killing the largest number of Gazans ever I believe. I had hoped they would behave more proportionately. The numbers are way out of order.

What was really needed and is needed in the future is a greater dedication to peace. Since the previous round of killing, Israel has wasted ~15 years. There is a minority in Israel that doesn't want peace, this includes the current government.

Let me ask you--are you Jewish? Have you ever lived in Israel? Ever lived in a country that was invaded by a group intent on your annihilation? I'm just looking to get an idea of where you're coming from as I've never interacted with you in the past, (that I can recall, anyway).

... no, I was raised Christian and became an atheist in middle school. My wife is Jewish and we have three kids considered Jewish. Wife and I were married in a synagogue. As a consequence I live in a largely American "Jewish Lite" world. My youngest daughter has been to Israel a couple of times, I never have, neither my wife. Saying all of this I am not a blind partisan where Israel can do no wrong. I very much oppose the current government, and the crook leading it. I don't have to have lived in Israel to understand the difficulties and issues.

I'll just say this: I don't know what racism does to a people, to a nation, to an individual. I remember when Ferguson, Missouri was burning. Many on Facebook condemned the actions of the Black community at the time. I posted a picture of Emmett Till's puffed and beaten face as he lay dead in his open casket. I posed the question: What does this do to a race of people who have hundreds of years of such treatment in their past, in their hearts, in their subconscious? Yes--we all know it was wrong and counter-productive and blah-blah-blah. You want to go tell the Black community those things? You'd better be Black. You'd better have walked in their shoes and lived in their neighborhoods and suffered beatings and discrimination and hate and the rest of what it's been like for many to have grown up Black in America.

Yet some of you have it all figured out concerning Israel and how they're conducting their war against Hamas.

Again--I don't know what centuries of racism and persecution and oppression and murder do to a race of people. I cannot imagine what it's like for Jewish people living in Israel, who have the Holocaust in their rear view mirror, to hear some Arab nations/Islamic groups vomiting out a variation of the same Jew-hating propaganda the filthy stinking Nazi's did. I don't know what it feels like to live in a country the size of Rhode Island surrounded by hostile neighbors who have attacked and killed Israel's citizens frequently in very recent history. How can I (or any of you for that matter) sit in judgment about how Israel is dealing with what Hamas did to them? Here in safe, comfy, uninvaded America, sitting on our couches typing away on our laptops in our warm furnished homes in our (I'm making a guess) safe suburban neighborhoods, with our high-minded, pious sentiments about what Israel should and shouldn't do. I think it's naive and hypocritical. What do we know about it?

It's one thing when a nation is the aggressor. It was easy to condemn Japan, Germany and other conquering pillaging murdering nations. But the Jews have been trying to exist in peace with their neighbors for millennia, yet are continuously being driven out of one country after the next, being refused entry to one country after another. Hated, discriminated against, vilified, persecuted, branded, hunted, killed, systematically exterminated. What does that do to a race and their psyche? Do you know from experience? I can't sit in judgment of a government that is fighting so their people can survive--like actually exist as a nation.

How casually some of you discuss this situation. Do you know what it's like to live in fear for your life because of your race? Go live as a Jew in Israel for a while, enough time to experience hearing, through the media and word of mouth, about neighboring nations and their Jew-hating, Jew-killing rhetoric; enough time to hear bombs exploding in your neighborhood killing your friends and family; enough time to be invaded by raping, beating, hostage-taking slaughterers intent on your final annihilation. You live there and experience those things--then come talk to me about Israel's overreaction and improper means of conducting war.

I think your challenge about walking in another's shoes is quite appropriate. It's all too easy for those who have not experienced generations of trauma to dismiss it.

And this trauma is indeed inevitably going to lead to choices that as you said, may be "counterproductive".

I quite agree about the many generations of trauma for the Jewish people, and specifically the perspectives of Israelis who have lived with the potentiality of threats from neighbors, and frequent terror attacks.

Two thoughts:

1) Decisions made by specific governments and leaders can indeed prove to be "counterproductive" and it's not unreasonable to challenge those decisions as not being effective to achieve desired outcomes and instead more likely to lead to more cycles of trauma.

2) Trauma is not limited to the Jewish people in this question of how to achieve peace and a failure to recognize the traumas in other parties only leads to even worse decisions and behaviors.

Finally, I think it's consistent with what you wrote that those of us who have not suffered those traumas should be humble in our assumptions. We can't really know, we can only attempt to empathize best we can.

I think there are still many Americans who felt the Trauma of 9/11. I think there are many Americans who expect more trauma if not even worse in the near future.

[MDlaxfan76]

International law, my ass... So much (hypocritical) compassion—for everyone but the Jews and Israel.

There was the "Jewish Problem" for over two thousand years. What to do with the Jews? So Hitler and his regime came up with a solution, a final solution. This solution obviously wasn't perfect, especially for the Jews. But, at the time, as you're speaking to, this solution was far from outrageous. It was only after the fact when the world saw what this solution actually looked like up close and personal did people people flinch. Then, post WWII, the Jews come up with their own Final Solution. And, though the world consensus may not like this solution, allowing the Jews to have a homeland and the ability to defend themselves only makes sense. OuttaNowhere, you're not wrong. At all.

Thank you, sir.

And it bears re-quoting:

“It doesn’t matter what the world says. It doesn’t matter what they say about Israel anywhere else. The only thing that matters is that we can exist here. Unless it’s clear that there is a price to pay for Jewish lives, we will not be able to survive."

--David Ben-Gurion to Ariel Sharon (circa 1948)

... I think you are going to find DBG very short sighted. You will be at war forever. So your answer to the question how many Gazans must die is a very clear --- ALL OF THEM. And of course that will insure Israel's security. Again color me skeptical. When all this started I had hoped I would see something different, that Israel would handle this differently than in the past, they would look outside the box for a solution. What I have seen so far is the past.

Why are you tagging/quoting me on this? What does what Ben-Gurion said to Sharon have to do with being at war forever (as if you can look into the future and know such a thing), or insuring Israel's security?

I also don't see anything in either Baducci's or my comments about how many Gazan's must die. -- you raised the DBG quote. I took it that you supported that POV. Which has already proven a failure. Israel has shown numerous times a willingness to kill lots of people who have killed Israelis, but yet Israel keeps getting attacked and Israeli's killed. Everyone has gotten DBG's point, and nothing has changed.


So after Hamas invaded Israel and slaughtered hundreds of innocent victims and took hundreds more hostage, you hoped Israel would handle this differently? What should they have done? -- they have done something different. This round of killing they are killing the largest number of Gazans ever I believe. I had hoped they would behave more proportionately. The numbers are way out of order.

What was really needed and is needed in the future is a greater dedication to peace. Since the previous round of killing, Israel has wasted ~15 years. There is a minority in Israel that doesn't want peace, this includes the current government.

Let me ask you--are you Jewish? Have you ever lived in Israel? Ever lived in a country that was invaded by a group intent on your annihilation? I'm just looking to get an idea of where you're coming from as I've never interacted with you in the past, (that I can recall, anyway).

... no, I was raised Christian and became an atheist in middle school. My wife is Jewish and we have three kids considered Jewish. Wife and I were married in a synagogue. As a consequence I live in a largely American "Jewish Lite" world. My youngest daughter has been to Israel a couple of times, I never have, neither my wife. Saying all of this I am not a blind partisan where Israel can do no wrong. I very much oppose the current government, and the crook leading it. I don't have to have lived in Israel to understand the difficulties and issues.

I'll just say this: I don't know what racism does to a people, to a nation, to an individual. I remember when Ferguson, Missouri was burning. Many on Facebook condemned the actions of the Black community at the time. I posted a picture of Emmett Till's puffed and beaten face as he lay dead in his open casket. I posed the question: What does this do to a race of people who have hundreds of years of such treatment in their past, in their hearts, in their subconscious? Yes--we all know it was wrong and counter-productive and blah-blah-blah. You want to go tell the Black community those things? You'd better be Black. You'd better have walked in their shoes and lived in their neighborhoods and suffered beatings and discrimination and hate and the rest of what it's been like for many to have grown up Black in America.

Yet some of you have it all figured out concerning Israel and how they're conducting their war against Hamas.

Again--I don't know what centuries of racism and persecution and oppression and murder do to a race of people. I cannot imagine what it's like for Jewish people living in Israel, who have the Holocaust in their rear view mirror, to hear some Arab nations/Islamic groups vomiting out a variation of the same Jew-hating propaganda the filthy stinking Nazi's did. I don't know what it feels like to live in a country the size of Rhode Island surrounded by hostile neighbors who have attacked and killed Israel's citizens frequently in very recent history. How can I (or any of you for that matter) sit in judgment about how Israel is dealing with what Hamas did to them? Here in safe, comfy, uninvaded America, sitting on our couches typing away on our laptops in our warm furnished homes in our (I'm making a guess) safe suburban neighborhoods, with our high-minded, pious sentiments about what Israel should and shouldn't do. I think it's naive and hypocritical. What do we know about it?

It's one thing when a nation is the aggressor. It was easy to condemn Japan, Germany and other conquering pillaging murdering nations. But the Jews have been trying to exist in peace with their neighbors for millennia, yet are continuously being driven out of one country after the next, being refused entry to one country after another. Hated, discriminated against, vilified, persecuted, branded, hunted, killed, systematically exterminated. What does that do to a race and their psyche? Do you know from experience? I can't sit in judgment of a government that is fighting so their people can survive--like actually exist as a nation.

How casually some of you discuss this situation. Do you know what it's like to live in fear for your life because of your race? Go live as a Jew in Israel for a while, enough time to experience hearing, through the media and word of mouth, about neighboring nations and their Jew-hating, Jew-killing rhetoric; enough time to hear bombs exploding in your neighborhood killing your friends and family; enough time to be invaded by raping, beating, hostage-taking slaughterers intent on your final annihilation. You live there and experience those things--then come talk to me about Israel's overreaction and improper means of conducting war.

I think your challenge about walking in another's shoes is quite appropriate. It's all too easy for those who have not experienced generations of trauma to dismiss it.

And this trauma is indeed inevitably going to lead to choices that as you said, may be "counterproductive".

I quite agree about the many generations of trauma for the Jewish people, and specifically the perspectives of Israelis who have lived with the potentiality of threats from neighbors, and frequent terror attacks.

Two thoughts:

1) Decisions made by specific governments and leaders can indeed prove to be "counterproductive" and it's not unreasonable to challenge those decisions as not being effective to achieve desired outcomes and instead more likely to lead to more cycles of trauma.

2) Trauma is not limited to the Jewish people in this question of how to achieve peace and a failure to recognize the traumas in other parties only leads to even worse decisions and behaviors.

Finally, I think it's consistent with what you wrote that those of us who have not suffered those traumas should be humble in our assumptions. We can't really know, we can only attempt to empathize best we can.

I think there are still many Americans who felt the Trauma of 9/11. I think there are many Americans who expect more trauma if not even worse in the near future.

Yes, that's a fair statement that many Americans, though only some quite heavily and most less so, experienced that trauma. And it had a real effect. And some "counterproductive" decisions, too.

There are all sorts of of traumas that people experience, indeed most people know someone who has experienced major traumas, if not directly. Often, though, we are unaware of the traumas someone we know suffered.

Sometimes these traumas are super personal, eg rape, incest, assault, etc...others are more communal, mass murder events, police violence, mob riots, etc...some are based in ideologies that target and terrorize wide swaths of people based on religion, ethnicity, race, gender...

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

It is a fair question to ask how such a large # of Palestinians allowed Hamas tunnels and command bunkers to be built under hospitals, schools, mosques and other civilian facilities. A cynical person would say that Hamas was responsible for the retaliation that followed their massacre. They must have felt very safe using the people they claim to represent as human shields. It didn't seem to bother them one damn bit.

So how much violence is too much violence?? The catalyst for the ensuing violence is 100% on Hamas. War is hell. Churchill didn't lose any sleep when he firebombed Dresden. A city with zero importance on a strategic level. That was payback for V1 and V2 rocket attacks on London.

Curtis LeMay was considered a hero for the firebombing of Tokyo. General Sherman was a hero up North for burning Atlanta to the ground.The examples go on and on. The difference now is we all get death and destruction on the nightly news in beautiful HD TV.

Great points. Well said.

[jhu72]

International law, my ass... So much (hypocritical) compassion—for everyone but the Jews and Israel.

There was the "Jewish Problem" for over two thousand years. What to do with the Jews? So Hitler and his regime came up with a solution, a final solution. This solution obviously wasn't perfect, especially for the Jews. But, at the time, as you're speaking to, this solution was far from outrageous. It was only after the fact when the world saw what this solution actually looked like up close and personal did people people flinch. Then, post WWII, the Jews come up with their own Final Solution. And, though the world consensus may not like this solution, allowing the Jews to have a homeland and the ability to defend themselves only makes sense. OuttaNowhere, you're not wrong. At all.

Thank you, sir.

And it bears re-quoting:

“It doesn’t matter what the world says. It doesn’t matter what they say about Israel anywhere else. The only thing that matters is that we can exist here. Unless it’s clear that there is a price to pay for Jewish lives, we will not be able to survive."

--David Ben-Gurion to Ariel Sharon (circa 1948)

... I think you are going to find DBG very short sighted. You will be at war forever. So your answer to the question how many Gazans must die is a very clear --- ALL OF THEM. And of course that will insure Israel's security. Again color me skeptical. When all this started I had hoped I would see something different, that Israel would handle this differently than in the past, they would look outside the box for a solution. What I have seen so far is the past.

Why are you tagging/quoting me on this? What does what Ben-Gurion said to Sharon have to do with being at war forever (as if you can look into the future and know such a thing), or insuring Israel's security?

I also don't see anything in either Baducci's or my comments about how many Gazan's must die. -- you raised the DBG quote. I took it that you supported that POV. Which has already proven a failure. Israel has shown numerous times a willingness to kill lots of people who have killed Israelis, but yet Israel keeps getting attacked and Israeli's killed. Everyone has gotten DBG's point, and nothing has changed.


So after Hamas invaded Israel and slaughtered hundreds of innocent victims and took hundreds more hostage, you hoped Israel would handle this differently? What should they have done? -- they have done something different. This round of killing they are killing the largest number of Gazans ever I believe. I had hoped they would behave more proportionately. The numbers are way out of order.

What was really needed and is needed in the future is a greater dedication to peace. Since the previous round of killing, Israel has wasted ~15 years. There is a minority in Israel that doesn't want peace, this includes the current government.

Let me ask you--are you Jewish? Have you ever lived in Israel? Ever lived in a country that was invaded by a group intent on your annihilation? I'm just looking to get an idea of where you're coming from as I've never interacted with you in the past, (that I can recall, anyway).

... no, I was raised Christian and became an atheist in middle school. My wife is Jewish and we have three kids considered Jewish. Wife and I were married in a synagogue. As a consequence I live in a largely American "Jewish Lite" world. My youngest daughter has been to Israel a couple of times, I never have, neither my wife. Saying all of this I am not a blind partisan where Israel can do no wrong. I very much oppose the current government, and the crook leading it. I don't have to have lived in Israel to understand the difficulties and issues.

I'll just say this: I don't know what racism does to a people, to a nation, to an individual. I remember when Ferguson, Missouri was burning. Many on Facebook condemned the actions of the Black community at the time. I posted a picture of Emmett Till's puffed and beaten face as he lay dead in his open casket. I posed the question: What does this do to a race of people who have hundreds of years of such treatment in their past, in their hearts, in their subconscious? Yes--we all know it was wrong and counter-productive and blah-blah-blah. You want to go tell the Black community those things? You'd better be Black. You'd better have walked in their shoes and lived in their neighborhoods and suffered beatings and discrimination and hate and the rest of what it's been like for many to have grown up Black in America.

Yet some of you have it all figured out concerning Israel and how they're conducting their war against Hamas.

Again--I don't know what centuries of racism and persecution and oppression and murder do to a race of people. I cannot imagine what it's like for Jewish people living in Israel, who have the Holocaust in their rear view mirror, to hear some Arab nations/Islamic groups vomiting out a variation of the same Jew-hating propaganda the filthy stinking Nazi's did. I don't know what it feels like to live in a country the size of Rhode Island surrounded by hostile neighbors who have attacked and killed Israel's citizens frequently in very recent history. How can I (or any of you for that matter) sit in judgment about how Israel is dealing with what Hamas did to them? Here in safe, comfy, uninvaded America, sitting on our couches typing away on our laptops in our warm furnished homes in our (I'm making a guess) safe suburban neighborhoods, with our high-minded, pious sentiments about what Israel should and shouldn't do. I think it's naive and hypocritical. What do we know about it?

It's one thing when a nation is the aggressor. It was easy to condemn Japan, Germany and other conquering pillaging murdering nations. But the Jews have been trying to exist in peace with their neighbors for millennia, yet are continuously being driven out of one country after the next, being refused entry to one country after another. Hated, discriminated against, vilified, persecuted, branded, hunted, killed, systematically exterminated. What does that do to a race and their psyche? Do you know from experience? I can't sit in judgment of a government that is fighting so their people can survive--like actually exist as a nation.

How casually some of you discuss this situation. Do you know what it's like to live in fear for your life because of your race? Go live as a Jew in Israel for a while, enough time to experience hearing, through the media and word of mouth, about neighboring nations and their Jew-hating, Jew-killing rhetoric; enough time to hear bombs exploding in your neighborhood killing your friends and family; enough time to be invaded by raping, beating, hostage-taking slaughterers intent on your final annihilation. You live there and experience those things--then come talk to me about Israel's overreaction and improper means of conducting war.

I think your challenge about walking in another's shoes is quite appropriate. It's all too easy for those who have not experienced generations of trauma to dismiss it.

And this trauma is indeed inevitably going to lead to choices that as you said, may be "counterproductive".

I quite agree about the many generations of trauma for the Jewish people, and specifically the perspectives of Israelis who have lived with the potentiality of threats from neighbors, and frequent terror attacks.

Two thoughts:

1) Decisions made by specific governments and leaders can indeed prove to be "counterproductive" and it's not unreasonable to challenge those decisions as not being effective to achieve desired outcomes and instead more likely to lead to more cycles of trauma.

2) Trauma is not limited to the Jewish people in this question of how to achieve peace and a failure to recognize the traumas in other parties only leads to even worse decisions and behaviors.

Finally, I think it's consistent with what you wrote that those of us who have not suffered those traumas should be humble in our assumptions. We can't really know, we can only attempt to empathize best we can.

I think there are still many Americans who felt the Trauma of 9/11. I think there are many Americans who expect more trauma if not even worse in the near future.

Yes, that's a fair statement that many Americans, though only some quite heavily and most less so, experienced that trauma. And it had a real effect. And some "counterproductive" decisions, too.

There are all sorts of of traumas that people experience, indeed most people know someone who has experienced major traumas, if not directly. Often, though, we are unaware of the traumas someone we know suffered.

Sometimes these traumas are super personal, eg rape, incest, assault, etc...others are more communal, mass murder events, police violence, mob riots, etc...some are based in ideologies that target and terrorize wide swaths of people based on religion, ethnicity, race, gender...

... I think the trauma of 911, and America's reaction to it led to nothing but bad decisions. in the short term.

[jhu72]

Ex-Netanyahu Aide predicts how long the war will go on.

-- Good discussion from a believable source regarding Netanyahu's plans, predicting the Israeli's will continue with the war through 2024 and perhaps into 2025.

[Baducchi]

Yes, that's a fair statement that many Americans, though only some quite heavily and most less so, experienced that trauma. And it had a real effect. And some "counterproductive" decisions, too.
There are all sorts of of traumas that people experience, indeed most people know someone who has experienced major traumas, if not directly. Often, though, we are unaware of the traumas someone we know suffered.
Sometimes these traumas are super personal, eg rape, incest, assault, etc...others are more communal, mass murder events, police violence, mob riots, etc...some are based in ideologies that target and terrorize wide swaths of people based on religion, ethnicity, race, gender...

... I think the trauma of 911, and America's reaction to it led to nothing but bad decisions. in the short term.

The trauma of 9/11 vs. the generational trauma that Jews have experienced is dramatically different. For that matter, the trauma the Palestinians have faced and are facing vs. the generational trauma of the Jews is dramatically different. My point isn't to have a trauma contest. I just don't want to lose sight of the depth and breadth of the trauma that Jews have and continue to experience. There's a reason why the Jews need Israel. The need for the Jews to have Israel is a deep, deep, very real need.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

The trauma of 9/11 vs. the generational trauma that Jews have experienced is dramatically different. For that matter, the trauma the Palestinians have faced and are facing vs. the generational trauma of the Jews is dramatically different. My point isn't to have a trauma contest. I just don't want to lose sight of the depth and breadth of the trauma that Jews have and continue to experience. There's a reason why the Jews need Israel. The need for the Jews to have Israel is a deep, deep, very real need.